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Did it ever occur to you at all that people might value education for its own sake and not for potential financial yield alone?
by DC-3 6y ago
Did it ever occur to you at all that people might value education for its own sake and not for potential financial yield alone?
- dgfitz 6y ago“You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.” - Good Will Hunting
- keiferski 6y agoYou know the theme of the movie is actually arguing against that quote, right? The conversation on the bench is the climax of the film; Robin Williams lectures Matt Damon about the limitations of book learning.
- thehappypm 6y agoI wouldn't go so far as to say that the movie is arguing against book learning, just that it's no substitute for real experiences.
- keiferski 6y agoSure, I’d agree with that.
- Beaver117 6y agoWe have infinite free/cheap educational resources on the internet. University only exists for the credential now.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- flavius29663 6y agoI wouldn't say it's just for credentials. Having passionate and smart colleagues and professors does wonder for your own passion and determination. It's the same reason companies have much more innovation in offices compared to remote working. The other thing is the networking, I have plenty of former colleagues that own their gig, and plenty others that are CEOs, CTO, COOs
- shiftpgdn 6y agoI went to a crappy state school after community college and met exactly 0 passionate professors along the way. It was an astoundingly miserable experience. None of my classmates have gone on to do anything of note.
- flavius29663 6y agowhich is exactly why a good school is better than a bad one: the courses and materials might be the same, but the experience can be totally different. IMO for most of us it's not worth getting into debt to pay any college, unless the college is in top X, or if you need the certification for your profession. Paying 60k a year for a mediocre college is one of the worst decisions you can make. You can achieve just the same amount of knowledge in less time on your own.
- 908B64B197 6y agoI think there's a value in being immersed in a subject, with peers equally passionate about it. You can't quite match the atmosphere of a late night lab session where you finally get your assignment in a working state, the impromptu conversations, someone pitching his startup idea and showing a demo.
- raiyu 6y agoIf that’s the case you can get it for nearly for free by just buying the books and reading them rather than paying $25,000 a year for that same privilege.
- minikites 6y agoSo then why do we have formal education at all?
- solosoyokaze 6y agoTo create workers for the industrial revolution.
- minikites 6y agoFormal education predates the industrial revolution.
- solosoyokaze 6y agoNot for the masses.
- Noos 6y agono, we have formal education because not everyone is an autodidact and may need actual help in evaluating and learning skills. Many skills are not like computer programming. You're not learning physical therapy from coursera, or even something like human resources; some things you need others for to mentor, correct, guide, or provide facilities for.
- solosoyokaze 6y agoApprenticeship is the historical way to accomplish this.
- imtringued 6y agoNo, he is right. Employers demand cookie cutter education and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that if everyone gets their cookie cutter education, earns money and then pays for their kids liberal arts education. We are at a point where everyone gets access to college but not everyone can actually support themselves. This is why the first generation of students has to maximize economic gains above everything else. Once the economy is doing well your kids will be able to pursue their dreams, or you can just go back to college yourself.
- minitoar 6y agoI don’t think most people going to 3rd-tier college to study humanities are doing it out of some abstract love of education. They’re doing it because every adult or counselor in their life told them they have to go to some college no matter what.
- Jtsummers 6y agoAnd, worse, many office jobs that were satisfied with high school diplomas or 2-year degrees in 1980 were requiring a bachelors by 2000. Even when the degree was irrelevant. Seriously, data entry does not require a history degree. At one place I worked nearly every one in the data entry positions had a history degree, and all had 4-year degrees of some kind. (NB: Talking about in the US)
- minitoar 6y agoRequiring a 4 year degree for a job even if the major isn’t relevant doesn’t seem wrong to me. Maybe data entry is taking it too far? Maybe the data was really sensitive and complicated.
- Jtsummers 6y agoIt causes inflation of job requirements, delays entry into careers, produces vast amounts of unnecessary debt and spending, promotes substandard graduate programs so people can be differentiated from the other history majors, and all because a high school diploma is considered worthless by most companies for their non-technical entry level positions.
- barrenko 6y agoLibrary works pretty well for that, and has for hundreds of years. *big caveat for hard sciences of course
- UncleMeat 6y agoI'm not sure I agree. I don't have a lot of experience with other humanities, but history is a verb rather than a noun. You learn history by doing history rather than reading it. I do think that universities are often too conservative about getting students into the archive quickly but a bunch of institutions are rapidly equipping students with archival and analysis skills and sending them to do history. This is very difficult to obtain from a raw library.
- indy 6y agoUniversity is the last place for anyone who values education for its own sake
- curiousllama 6y agoYea, but we don't need the large-college-campus model for education for its own sake. As far as I can tell, the social focus of those institutions actually _hinders_ education (even as it supports social & emotional growth, networking, etc., which all serve the secondary purposes of campus-colleges). In terms of education for its own sake, why is Coursera insufficient? Or Youtube? Or, for that matter, book clubs?
- the_only_law 6y agoI imagine for many subjects, great benefit comes from the probably millions of dollars worth of equipment you get access to. EDIT: didn’t see GPs caveat.
- awillen 6y agoAs a couple of other commenters have said, lots of ways to get high-quality education freely/cheaply without going to a university. Beyond that, if schools put a big warning label on their recruiting materials that said "EVEN AFTER YOU SPEND $200K TO ATTEND YOU WILL LIKELY NOT BE ABLE TO FIND A HIGH PAYING JOB" then sure, that would be fine. But that's not what they do. They allude, if only vaguely, to the value of education to one's career. Many people have gone and gotten these useless (financially) degrees because they have misconceptions about what the result will be. As I said, hopefully the market is correcting that issue as people become more aware of what they're getting. And hey, like I said, there are people who come from rich families or who get full scholarships, and the calculus is different for them. But for everyone else, it's one thing to value education for it's own sake, and it's another to value education at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars (not including the opportunity cost of not working for four years or the interest on the loans to pay those hundreds of thousands of dollars). College is a huge, huge investment of money, and while I definitely value education, I don't think there's a valid argument to be made that any soft education at a low-tier university is worth its price tag.
- gruez 6y ago>Beyond that, if schools put a big warning label on their recruiting materials that said "EVEN AFTER YOU SPEND $200K TO ATTEND YOU WILL LIKELY NOT BE ABLE TO FIND A HIGH PAYING JOB" then sure, that would be fine. can't wait for college to put out prospectuses that list out all the risk factors in dry and exhaustive detail (eg. https://personal.vanguard.com/pub/Pdf/p3141.pdf#page=4 https://personal.vanguard.com/pub/Pdf/p3141.pdf#page=4)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- VLM 6y agoIts also a regulation issue. Medical doctors carefully regulate the number of new doctors to keep wages high. Its difficult to get into med school but when you graduate you'll likely get a medical doctor job. Public school teachers do not regulate the number of new public school teachers at all, and as such the state U system in my state produces roughly twice as many ed degree holders as there are jobs. Assuming hiring system is perfect (which it is not, LOL) the bottom half of ed grads in my state have to find non educational work. Four years of "show up on time and do what you're told" makes them good waitresses and bartenders in my experience, but on a civilizational basis it seems an incredibly waste of money and talent.
- jawzz 6y agoEvery reply to you is repeating the same thing and they’re all wrong. Woe on the next great sociologist, philosopher, or artist who gets discouraged from study because “just do CS so you can make money” or “just go to the library it’s literally the same thing as four years of training under experts in the field and discussion with other smart young people.”
- minitoar 6y agoYou are wrong. Not every reply is saying that.
- DC1350 6y agoAlmost everyone goes to college to get a job. People who can afford to take risks like trying to become a philosopher don’t come from backgrounds where price is even a consideration. No middle class person dumb enough to believe trying to be a sociologist is a good idea will be smart enough to actually make that happen.
- awillen 6y agoRealistically, the next great sociologist and philosopher is going to be an academic, and the amount of spaces for academics in those fields is so vanishingly small that if you went to a third-tier university, you're almost entirely unlikely to get one. If you went to Stanford/Harvard/etc., maybe, but still not great odds. It's like saying that you're discouraging the next lottery winner by telling people that playing the lottery is a bad investment.
- brighton36 6y agoThat probably has more to do with 'greatness' as a product of the publishing system. (Meaning: it's great because it's published in a prestigious medium, not because the content is inherently superior) The next plato will likely be completely uncelebrated in these mediums, and will publish on an uncelebrated website or publisher.
- smm2000 6y ago
- teeray 6y agoThis is certainly true, but the harsh reality is that there are “job training” degrees and luxury degrees. If you have all your other financial ducks aligned, I don’t mind if you drive a Mercedes or decide to get a degree you can’t possibly hope to get a job with. Otherwise it’s just financially irresponsible.
- jimbokun 6y agoThose people exist, but they are a small fraction of the population. The number of people going to college to increase their future potential earnings is a far, far larger group.
- kop316 6y agoI have found Community Colleges to be the perfect place for this actually. Community College classes are MUCH cheaper, and are even more so if you don't take the class for credit (where I went, tuition was $20 for a 1 credit class for non-degree seekers. No that was not a typo, it was Twenty USD for the entire class). Community College professors don't do research, so they are usually focused much more on teaching classes. I have actually known quite a few professors who are in actual industry and teach a class or two. I took a Jazz Combo class every semester with a well known local musician. He enjoyed teaching the class because everyone wanted to be there (we were all adult non-degree seekers), and since it was on a weeknight, he wasn't gigging anyways so it was a nice bonus to his freelance work.
- DC1350 6y agoThe problem with community colleges is that you completely miss out on any meaningful networking. As long as all the best students see it as beneath them, you'll have a hard time meeting people in a community college who can actually help your career
- the_only_law 6y agoAnother problem is wildly varied quality. I’ve seen course material from some community colleges that made me think “wow, this seems to be a high quality resource” in all sorts of interesting subjects, but most community colleges in places I’ve lived near or been too have limited programs and often low quality ones at that.
- kop316 6y agoI think your comment misses my original intent. If people might value education for its own sake (which is what I was replying to), then I have found Community Colleges to be the perfect place for this. But to address your point: > The problem with community colleges is that you completely miss out on any meaningful networking. As long as all the best students see it as beneath them, you'll have a hard time meeting people in a community college who can actually help your career Since the instructor I had was a well known local musician, he actually called me up a few times for a gig, and I have done quite a bit of networking that way. I think you would be surprised just what type of networking oppritunities are actually are at a decent community college. Like I said in my comment: > I have actually known quite a few professors who are in actual industry and teach a class or two. One of the best entry-level folks I have ever met we found this way. He is an incredibly hard and smart worker, but did not have the money to go to a four year university. So he went to community college, and a colleague of mine who taught there offered him a job as he was a student. Now he has a four year degree (he was able to pay his way through college with that job) and is one of the best contrbutors to that group.
- wl 6y agoI value education for its own sake. So I got my degree from a well regarded university in a lucrative field that I'm good at and enjoy. A roof over my head and money in my bank account, I can study anything I want without worrying about the financial yield. Sometimes that takes the form of free MOOCs. Sometimes that takes the form of paid classes taken through university extension programs. Unlike when I was taking classes for degrees, I'm learning things I want to learn, not things I have to. It's very nice.
- imtringued 6y agoThis is the way to go, go to university so you can earn money. Once money is no longer a problem, focus on all your other life goals. That could involve getting the education that you really want and as long as you can afford it that's perfectly acceptable. However, many people are not in your situation. They have to work hard to get a good job and if they pick the wrong degree they will have to work even harder in the future. The education itself is not the problem, it's the unsustainable nature of getting a loan for a degree that does not empower you to pay the loan back.
- x86_64Ubuntu 6y agoWith the costs required to obtain an education as they are, we are well beyond valuing education simply for the sake of valuing education. If it requires years and years to pay off, then we absolutely must look at it like an investment.
- imtringued 6y agoYes and once your first cash cow investment (STEM degree) has paid for itself you can go on and do any liberal arts degree that you want.
- fallingknife 6y agoBecause if you want education for its own sake, Google university will get you there much faster and cheaper. Universities are to get that diploma.
- anonuser123456 6y agoYes. And generally no, they don't.
- imtringued 6y agoThat's entertainment and if you have to get a loan to fund your entertainment then you better plan on finding a way to pay that loan back. There is a reason why this form of entertainment was reserved for the rich, they could afford it. Nowadays every single bloke demands free entertainment education without having to work for it.