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In countries like France [1], electricity heating is the most environmentally friendly, at 40 g Co2/kWh, while gas (the cheapest and most common) is >250. [1]

In countries like France [1], electricity heating is the most environmentally friendly, at 40 g Co2/kWh, while gas (the cheapest and most common) is >250. [1] https://www.electricitymap.org/map https://www.electricitymap.org/map

adrianN 6y ago
Even in France a heat pump will give you at least twice the heat for the gram of CO2.
- arnaudsm 6y ago
  Heat pumps need energy to operate. Hence at low temperatures the best combo is electricity+heat-pump. So cryptomining+heat-pump is exactly the same, minus the e-waste.
  - simias 6y ago
    Don't heat pumps work like a fridge/AC but backwards? That is, compressing the air inside to generate heat, then decompressing it outside where it gets extremely cold and is warmed up by the relatively hotter outside air? If so I fail to see how cryptomining features in there.
    - arnaudsm 6y ago
      You're right, the compression step is mechanical. Heat pumps are the most carbon efficient after ~0°C. So in most parts of the globe electrical heat-pumps are the most environment-friendly. Thanks I Edited my first comment.
    - b15h0p 6y ago
      Yes they do. They usually have classic resistive heating elements for when the outside temperatures drop too low for the heatpump to be efficient.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - tuyiown 6y ago
      Obviously, he meant that the heatpump mined the cryo out of outside cold air… cryomining, cryptomining, same thing, right ?
  - ip26 6y ago
    Heat pump is 3x more efficient at heating than any electric resistive heat.
hokkos 6y ago
If the average carbon intensity of french grid is in the 40g, if you take into account when heating is used it is more in the 80gCO2/kWh, anyway a heat pump is always better. http://www.carbone4.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Publication-FE-Chaleur-et-e%CC%81lectricite%CC%81-.pdf http://www.carbone4.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Publicati...
- hnuser123456 6y ago
  France's electricity is largely generated by nuclear power which has minimal CO2 emissions.
  - robocat 6y ago
    True, but very misleading. When you add a marginal kWh of electricity usage, how is that extra 1 kWh generated? If France runs its nuclear power at nearly 100% utilisation, then if you add 1 kWh usage then that power comes from another source, which could be a high CO2 emitter. The same goes for hydroelectricity: if all the hydroelectric power is already being utilised (no spillway), then you cannot claim that your electric car is being charged by hydro even if your country has a large percentage of it. There are complications when lakes are involved because whether your power usage is green or not often depends upon future inflows (lots of future rain = green; no future rain = dirty generation in future when lakes get low).
    - IneffablePigeon 6y ago
      This is an interesting topic - I agree with your interpretation, but to add another wrinkle, I live in the UK which has a decent but not amazing proportion of renewable energy now. I pay a little extra to my supplier to provide me with "100% renewable electricity" - meaning that for every customer on that tariff, they total up the power usage and buy at least that much renewable energy from the grid. I assume that this puts some upwards price pressure on renewable energy compared to non renewable, but how much? Presumably every extra watt I use doesn't result in a whole extra watt of renewable capacity being added, but what's the conversion - 5%? 50%? I don't even know where to start answering that question.
legulere 6y ago
At least in Germany you can also buy electricity that is 100% renewable at 0 g CO2/kWh. It also does not really cost much more (though we generally have pretty high electricity prices because of taxes on electricity).
- tgb 6y ago
  I know that's what you're paying for, but I wonder what the marginal effects are. I.e. am I paying for a 100% renewable energy that otherwise would have been sold to a customer not on a renewable plan? If I use more of the 100% renewable energy, does that increase the amount of non-renewable energy that must be generated for other people's consumption? I have no idea how grids work.
- Aachen 6y ago
  They don't run an extra cable though, they just buy credits and if you're lucky the profit doesn't go to the parent fossil energy company. It's still better than old energy firms but it's not as if the coal plants run any less hard when you turn on your bitcoin farm with a green contract instead of a fossil one. It's just a matter of where profits flow, and also some public perception. (E.g. Climeworks says that individual customers help show investors that that's a market for it, which helps them do more good than purely the CO2 you pay them to remove.) Regarding this "fossil parent" thing btw, list of checked companies: https://www.robinwood.de/oekostromreport https://www.robinwood.de/oekostromreport (I'm with Green City Power because they don't only go the easy hydro route but also build out solar -- iirc, it has been a while). Switching is a matter of signing up with the new provider. Nobody needs to come by, power doesn't go out at all, you just tell them what the meter says on date X and all is good.

adrianN 6y ago

Even in France a heat pump will give you at least twice the heat for the gram of CO2.

arnaudsm 6y ago
Heat pumps need energy to operate. Hence at low temperatures the best combo is electricity+heat-pump. So cryptomining+heat-pump is exactly the same, minus the e-waste.
- simias 6y ago
  Don't heat pumps work like a fridge/AC but backwards? That is, compressing the air inside to generate heat, then decompressing it outside where it gets extremely cold and is warmed up by the relatively hotter outside air? If so I fail to see how cryptomining features in there.
  - arnaudsm 6y ago
    You're right, the compression step is mechanical. Heat pumps are the most carbon efficient after ~0°C. So in most parts of the globe electrical heat-pumps are the most environment-friendly. Thanks I Edited my first comment.
  - b15h0p 6y ago
    Yes they do. They usually have classic resistive heating elements for when the outside temperatures drop too low for the heatpump to be efficient.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - tuyiown 6y ago
    Obviously, he meant that the heatpump mined the cryo out of outside cold air… cryomining, cryptomining, same thing, right ?
- ip26 6y ago
  Heat pump is 3x more efficient at heating than any electric resistive heat.

hokkos 6y ago

If the average carbon intensity of french grid is in the 40g, if you take into account when heating is used it is more in the 80gCO2/kWh, anyway a heat pump is always better. http://www.carbone4.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Publication-FE-Chaleur-et-e%CC%81lectricite%CC%81-.pdf http://www.carbone4.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Publicati...

hnuser123456 6y ago
France's electricity is largely generated by nuclear power which has minimal CO2 emissions.
- robocat 6y ago
  True, but very misleading. When you add a marginal kWh of electricity usage, how is that extra 1 kWh generated? If France runs its nuclear power at nearly 100% utilisation, then if you add 1 kWh usage then that power comes from another source, which could be a high CO2 emitter. The same goes for hydroelectricity: if all the hydroelectric power is already being utilised (no spillway), then you cannot claim that your electric car is being charged by hydro even if your country has a large percentage of it. There are complications when lakes are involved because whether your power usage is green or not often depends upon future inflows (lots of future rain = green; no future rain = dirty generation in future when lakes get low).
  - IneffablePigeon 6y ago
    This is an interesting topic - I agree with your interpretation, but to add another wrinkle, I live in the UK which has a decent but not amazing proportion of renewable energy now. I pay a little extra to my supplier to provide me with "100% renewable electricity" - meaning that for every customer on that tariff, they total up the power usage and buy at least that much renewable energy from the grid. I assume that this puts some upwards price pressure on renewable energy compared to non renewable, but how much? Presumably every extra watt I use doesn't result in a whole extra watt of renewable capacity being added, but what's the conversion - 5%? 50%? I don't even know where to start answering that question.

legulere 6y ago

At least in Germany you can also buy electricity that is 100% renewable at 0 g CO2/kWh. It also does not really cost much more (though we generally have pretty high electricity prices because of taxes on electricity).

tgb 6y ago
I know that's what you're paying for, but I wonder what the marginal effects are. I.e. am I paying for a 100% renewable energy that otherwise would have been sold to a customer not on a renewable plan? If I use more of the 100% renewable energy, does that increase the amount of non-renewable energy that must be generated for other people's consumption? I have no idea how grids work.
Aachen 6y ago
They don't run an extra cable though, they just buy credits and if you're lucky the profit doesn't go to the parent fossil energy company. It's still better than old energy firms but it's not as if the coal plants run any less hard when you turn on your bitcoin farm with a green contract instead of a fossil one. It's just a matter of where profits flow, and also some public perception. (E.g. Climeworks says that individual customers help show investors that that's a market for it, which helps them do more good than purely the CO2 you pay them to remove.) Regarding this "fossil parent" thing btw, list of checked companies: https://www.robinwood.de/oekostromreport https://www.robinwood.de/oekostromreport (I'm with Green City Power because they don't only go the easy hydro route but also build out solar -- iirc, it has been a while). Switching is a matter of signing up with the new provider. Nobody needs to come by, power doesn't go out at all, you just tell them what the meter says on date X and all is good.