9 ms·

And yet, when I had to return my M1 Macbook Pro 3 weeks back because of dead pixels, the dude at Best Buy told me that in order to wipe it, they had to update t

by titzer 6y ago

And yet, when I had to return my M1 Macbook Pro 3 weeks back because of dead pixels, the dude at Best Buy told me that in order to wipe it, they had to update the OS because the version of the OS that came installed had a bug that would make the machine unbootable if they tried to do a factory reset from that version. So it had to download ~3gb to update the OS, just to wipe itself. That's just bonkers.

crazygringo 6y ago
I mean, bugs are most likely to be found in rarely used scenarios (like wiping) and also in the version of software that actually gets shipped with hardware, because it's got a non-negotiable tight release deadline. (Which is why many devices force an OS update from the internet before you can even use it for the first time.) Of all the places for a crazy bug like this to be found, this seems like one of the least bonkers. :) And the excellent thing about Apple is that if you did brick it, Apple would just exchange it for you for free since it's their own defect.
- lukeschlather 6y ago
  It sounds like the M1 literally cannot be re-imaged from external media though, because the internal copy of the OS is so locked-down. Which fundamentally seems like a very Apple sort of disregard for providing tools for people to deal with failure modes. It also ensures the people actually solving the problem and the people who have the problem are never in the same room and never talk about what's going on.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
    This is incorrect; you can do so with another Mac and Apple Configurator, just like it was an iOS device.
    - 1over137 6y ago
      These days a Mac basically is an iOS device.
      - oneplane 6y ago
        I suppose the T1, T2 and Touch Bar are, and with the M1 those parts are integrated on the SoC. But the runtime OS is still macOS and like on x86 that is not very iOS. The best description would be 'both', as the embedded platform is added instead of displacing the existing 'computer' platform. On M1 it is closer, and much more integrated, but still very distinct.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        The boot and recovery process is very similar to that of iOS.
        oneplane 6y ago
        I don't think iOS has any similarity to booting an x86 CPU by faking an SPI Flash chip, compiling the IBB, ME and BUP code on-the-fly as needed and validating it externally before feeding it to the ROM inside the CPU for loading and microcode installation. But the T1, T2 itself is similar to iOS, as is the initial M1 boot stage.
    - cbsmith 6y ago
      Again, a very Apple thing to do. ;-) You just need another device from their ecosystem.
      - gumby 6y ago
        As opposed to "you need a special piece of hardware" it's "you need a readily available piece of hardware with the right affordances". Doesn't sound particularly bad, especially when compared to the situation in other industries (e.g. cars and all the special proprietary OBD stuff they do).
      - tbodt 6y ago
        idevicerestore will eventually support doing this from Linux.
  - easton 6y ago
    It can[0], it's just that the partition holding 1TR and the second-stage bootloader (which is almost but not quite macOS) isn't overwritten. Just like how PCs that store UEFI variables on the SSD don't overwrite those when wiping the OS (as OS installers are now smart enough not to wipe those). 1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211983 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211983 (specifically, "Or use a bootable installer")
    - floatboth 6y ago
      > PCs that store UEFI variables on the SSD Which PCs do that? Where do they store, on the ESP?
      - easton 6y ago
        I was mistaken, they are stored in NVRAM and just mounted in Linux. (when I read the doc the first time I knew that I must be misunderstanding)
- _underfl0w_ 6y ago
  I bought a non-M1 Macbook a decade ago and there were absolutely zero issues wiping it from stock. That was one of the first things I did, and everything performed as expected each time. How did things progress so far backwards in stability?
  - shawnz 6y ago
    > I bought a non-M1 Macbook a decade ago and there were absolutely zero issues ... How did things progress so far backwards in stability? We are talking about a system which just underwent a huge architectural change as well as a new major release of the operating system. I think it is unreasonable to expect the same level of stability as a decades-old architecture only a couple months after release. You can see in this case the issue is apparently already patched. It seems only with the very first software to have ever shipped on the device would you experience a bug such as this.
    - titzer 6y ago
      On the contrary, given the huge risks being taken here, you would think that the recovery/reimage solution would be the thing that they would test the most!
      - xxpor 6y ago
        On the other hand, downloading 3 gb to wipe doesn't really sound that bad concidering the way to do that used to be to download the entire OS and format the disk
        titzer 6y ago
        Why would you download anything? It seems possible to have a DVD/BluRay or USB disk with the golden copy on it, or the OS itself should be able to restore itself to factory settings.
        TameAntelope 6y ago
- salawat 6y ago
  I disagree. The most important part of a car is the brakes. Likewise, the most important part of a complex programmable device is the capability to slick and reinstall to restore a known good working state. Shipping something that cannot uninstall/reinstall cleanly is shipping a not even half functional base device. Ubiquity of Internet access is not a crutch that can be counted on at all times. The fact that modern hardware vendors are starting to assume that is disturbing, and likely another symptom of companies slowly trying to acclimate users to not really "owning" what it is they bought.
- LocalH 6y ago
  >I mean, bugs are most likely to be found in rarely used scenarios (like wiping) Some would posit that such scenarios should be some of the most important, because when you need to do such recovery, such scenarios can become immensely vital.
SXX 6y ago
It's won't be exactly briked, but bypassing the bug is messy process. Though no idea why they have trouble with Apple Configurator: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211983 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211983
- mikewhy 6y ago
  I had to do this recently and went with the terminal method. It's just downloading the newer install app and running it, really quite simple.
fortran77 6y ago
I don't think Apple realizes that a lot of the "cruft" in legacy/Intel platforms is there for a reason. Reasons like this.
- Toutouxc 6y ago
  Do you really believe one of the most valuable companies in the world that just on-the-fly transitioned half their product line to a different CPU architecture, released their flagship desktop OS for the new architecture and thrown in a compatibility layer that works like magic for good measure, somehow doesn't understand how computers work? Whatever they did, they did on purpose. The good and the bad.
  - Larrikin 6y ago
    Do you really think the engineers at Apple are gods incapable of mistakes? The MacOS division in particular has been a prime example of "don't upgrade until you have to" with how buggy each new update has been.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      > Do you really think the engineers at Apple are gods incapable of mistakes? Read the comment the parent is replying to. It implies that the cruft of legacy architectures is to support these scenarios and Apple didn’t realize that. Both things are laughably wrong and the parent pointed out why the latter is so ridiculous.
  - aprdm 6y ago
    You make it sound like all of those changes weren’t many years of effort by many engineers...
    - Toutouxc 6y ago
      Unfortunately I don't know everyone's names, so I'm using "Apple" as an umbrella term for Apple engineers.
GeekyBear 6y ago
A dude at Best Buy didn't know the most efficient way to wipe one of the products they sell? I can't say I'm shocked. Apple's free Configurator 2 utility is much quicker than the Windows 10 "Reset this PC" functionality, and will factory reset an M1 Mac even if the system is unbootable.
- abrowne 6y ago
  It would still need to download the firmware image on the computer running AC2 if it hadn't been downloaded before of course.
cbsmith 6y ago
There was a time where there'd be a discoverable button/knob to explicitly invoke this function. It's amazing what where the gods of UX have taken us.
reaperducer 6y ago
the dude at Best Buy told me Since when do technical people believe dudes at Best Buy?
mikewhy 6y ago
The version of the OS that shipped with them has an unfortunate bug when reinstalling. IIRC it doesn't brick them, but it won't get passed the final stage when you create your account. In any case, the solution would be "download a newer version of the OS and make some installation media like a usb". Luckily, the recovery OS can still connect to wifi, so you can skip the whole "make an installation media" step. You just download the new installer and run it. It really doesn't seem bonkers to me.
EricE 6y ago
If you never ran software update and bought it the first day it was available then they are correct. If you ever updated the OS - even just once - then you had the patch for the recovery mode that had the bug. But even with the bugged first version of macOS, the laptops are still recoverable - you just need another Mac with Apple Configurator 2 to get around the bug. Something you would think the Geek Squad should be able to handle (yes, that was sarcasm). All you really needed to do was boot into recovery mode, launch disk utility then nuke the disk. If they want to re-install the OS, let them. I ended up taking my Air back to Apple because it turned out I really do need more than 16GB for RAM for a few things (shoot!) and I just nuked the drive. They didn't even bat an eye.
omniscient_oce 6y ago
I'm still using a Macbook Air 2014 but looking at getting a new laptop. How are the new ones? Do they last as long and built as well as the old ones? Otherwise, does anyone know a good solid laptop that I can install linux on without driver / battery issues?
- lovelyviking 6y ago
  My new M1 is full of bugs and at this point after being downvoted here for stating the facts I do not care wether those are software bugs or hardware issues. It's the buggiest machine I ever had. It even became not bootable in the first day. And I mean completely not bootable. You can't boot it from external usb stick. You can't do anything without 'another Mac' to 'revive' it as they call it. (see here for description: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26203799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26203799 and I have described more of the bugs in this thread) I can't say this about MacBookPro of 2009. This one worked. But the model of 2015 just have fallen apart. (You can dig in my comments how. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25809097 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25809097) This M1 became not bootable because their Disk Utility in recovery options become unresponsive at some point and then it showed black screen containing exclamation mark with url where they tell you that you need another Mac to revive this one. Somehow not this black screen with exclamation mark nor the web pages it points to did not mention that there is another boot option that is discussed here. Look for idiotic explanations for that fact around this thread. And see how I've been downvoted for stating that fact. "Very fast" some say? I still wish to see it, because so far it feels just like the one I had before or slower! I am not talking about benchmarks, I am talking about day to day experience. Example: Screen shot (cmd-shift-4) takes ~1-2 seconds for cross-cursor to appear. The saddest thing that all of my attempts to communicate about the problems are ignored or facing downvotes instead of digging into it and trying to find out why it happened which was my initial intent and what I was expecting to happen at least here. Instead I observe some bs like "oh, I never heard about any problems or let's ignore those problems because perhaps it's your hardware". But even if it is? It's still an issue! BTW I ran apple diagnostics and it shows "no issues found". So I've seen no evidence for any hardware issues so far. With such attitude when attack goes toward the messenger and not toward the problem It's hard for me to expect a brighter future with that or that those issues would be fixed. They perhaps would simply pretend that nothing has happened and everything is perfect. And at this point I am getting sick of this BS. If this bullying mechanism would not be removed from HN I see no reason to be reasonable here or trying to contribute
IgniteTheSun 6y ago
"So it had to download ~3gb to update the OS, just to wipe itself." Similarly, if one wants to replace Windows 10S with Linux, have to either have or create a Microsoft account and then have to upgrade to Windows Home via a large download ...
- alsetmusic 6y ago
  > have to either have or create a Microsoft account There’s a link near the bottom of the window to skip creating an MS account. Source: I did this last week.
  - IgniteTheSun 6y ago
    I both looked for and searched for a way to do so without a Microsoft account about a month ago - could not upgrade to Windows 10 Home without it and could not remove 10S without upgrading it first. I had downloaded a copy of Windows directly from Microsoft but could not use it because the Windows 10S was preinstalled by the OEM and did not come with a windows key code.
  - xodice 6y ago
    This does not exist in Home versions of Windows 10 unless there is no active network connection.

by titzer 6y ago

crazygringo 6y ago

I mean, bugs are most likely to be found in rarely used scenarios (like wiping) and also in the version of software that actually gets shipped with hardware, because it's got a non-negotiable tight release deadline. (Which is why many devices force an OS update from the internet before you can even use it for the first time.) Of all the places for a crazy bug like this to be found, this seems like one of the least bonkers. :) And the excellent thing about Apple is that if you did brick it, Apple would just exchange it for you for free since it's their own defect.

lukeschlather 6y ago
It sounds like the M1 literally cannot be re-imaged from external media though, because the internal copy of the OS is so locked-down. Which fundamentally seems like a very Apple sort of disregard for providing tools for people to deal with failure modes. It also ensures the people actually solving the problem and the people who have the problem are never in the same room and never talk about what's going on.
- ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
  This is incorrect; you can do so with another Mac and Apple Configurator, just like it was an iOS device.
  - 1over137 6y ago
    These days a Mac basically is an iOS device.
    - oneplane 6y ago
      I suppose the T1, T2 and Touch Bar are, and with the M1 those parts are integrated on the SoC. But the runtime OS is still macOS and like on x86 that is not very iOS. The best description would be 'both', as the embedded platform is added instead of displacing the existing 'computer' platform. On M1 it is closer, and much more integrated, but still very distinct.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        The boot and recovery process is very similar to that of iOS.
        oneplane 6y ago
        I don't think iOS has any similarity to booting an x86 CPU by faking an SPI Flash chip, compiling the IBB, ME and BUP code on-the-fly as needed and validating it externally before feeding it to the ROM inside the CPU for loading and microcode installation. But the T1, T2 itself is similar to iOS, as is the initial M1 boot stage.
  - cbsmith 6y ago
    Again, a very Apple thing to do. ;-) You just need another device from their ecosystem.
    - gumby 6y ago
      As opposed to "you need a special piece of hardware" it's "you need a readily available piece of hardware with the right affordances". Doesn't sound particularly bad, especially when compared to the situation in other industries (e.g. cars and all the special proprietary OBD stuff they do).
    - tbodt 6y ago
      idevicerestore will eventually support doing this from Linux.
- easton 6y ago
  It can[0], it's just that the partition holding 1TR and the second-stage bootloader (which is almost but not quite macOS) isn't overwritten. Just like how PCs that store UEFI variables on the SSD don't overwrite those when wiping the OS (as OS installers are now smart enough not to wipe those). 1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211983 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211983 (specifically, "Or use a bootable installer")
  - floatboth 6y ago
    > PCs that store UEFI variables on the SSD Which PCs do that? Where do they store, on the ESP?
    - easton 6y ago
      I was mistaken, they are stored in NVRAM and just mounted in Linux. (when I read the doc the first time I knew that I must be misunderstanding)
_underfl0w_ 6y ago
I bought a non-M1 Macbook a decade ago and there were absolutely zero issues wiping it from stock. That was one of the first things I did, and everything performed as expected each time. How did things progress so far backwards in stability?
- shawnz 6y ago
  > I bought a non-M1 Macbook a decade ago and there were absolutely zero issues ... How did things progress so far backwards in stability? We are talking about a system which just underwent a huge architectural change as well as a new major release of the operating system. I think it is unreasonable to expect the same level of stability as a decades-old architecture only a couple months after release. You can see in this case the issue is apparently already patched. It seems only with the very first software to have ever shipped on the device would you experience a bug such as this.
  - titzer 6y ago
    On the contrary, given the huge risks being taken here, you would think that the recovery/reimage solution would be the thing that they would test the most!
    - xxpor 6y ago
      On the other hand, downloading 3 gb to wipe doesn't really sound that bad concidering the way to do that used to be to download the entire OS and format the disk
      - titzer 6y ago
        Why would you download anything? It seems possible to have a DVD/BluRay or USB disk with the golden copy on it, or the OS itself should be able to restore itself to factory settings.
        TameAntelope 6y ago
salawat 6y ago
I disagree. The most important part of a car is the brakes. Likewise, the most important part of a complex programmable device is the capability to slick and reinstall to restore a known good working state. Shipping something that cannot uninstall/reinstall cleanly is shipping a not even half functional base device. Ubiquity of Internet access is not a crutch that can be counted on at all times. The fact that modern hardware vendors are starting to assume that is disturbing, and likely another symptom of companies slowly trying to acclimate users to not really "owning" what it is they bought.
LocalH 6y ago
>I mean, bugs are most likely to be found in rarely used scenarios (like wiping) Some would posit that such scenarios should be some of the most important, because when you need to do such recovery, such scenarios can become immensely vital.

SXX 6y ago

It's won't be exactly briked, but bypassing the bug is messy process. Though no idea why they have trouble with Apple Configurator: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211983 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211983

mikewhy 6y ago
I had to do this recently and went with the terminal method. It's just downloading the newer install app and running it, really quite simple.

fortran77 6y ago

I don't think Apple realizes that a lot of the "cruft" in legacy/Intel platforms is there for a reason. Reasons like this.

Toutouxc 6y ago
Do you really believe one of the most valuable companies in the world that just on-the-fly transitioned half their product line to a different CPU architecture, released their flagship desktop OS for the new architecture and thrown in a compatibility layer that works like magic for good measure, somehow doesn't understand how computers work? Whatever they did, they did on purpose. The good and the bad.
- Larrikin 6y ago
  Do you really think the engineers at Apple are gods incapable of mistakes? The MacOS division in particular has been a prime example of "don't upgrade until you have to" with how buggy each new update has been.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    > Do you really think the engineers at Apple are gods incapable of mistakes? Read the comment the parent is replying to. It implies that the cruft of legacy architectures is to support these scenarios and Apple didn’t realize that. Both things are laughably wrong and the parent pointed out why the latter is so ridiculous.
- aprdm 6y ago
  You make it sound like all of those changes weren’t many years of effort by many engineers...
  - Toutouxc 6y ago
    Unfortunately I don't know everyone's names, so I'm using "Apple" as an umbrella term for Apple engineers.

GeekyBear 6y ago

A dude at Best Buy didn't know the most efficient way to wipe one of the products they sell? I can't say I'm shocked. Apple's free Configurator 2 utility is much quicker than the Windows 10 "Reset this PC" functionality, and will factory reset an M1 Mac even if the system is unbootable.

abrowne 6y ago
It would still need to download the firmware image on the computer running AC2 if it hadn't been downloaded before of course.

cbsmith 6y ago

There was a time where there'd be a discoverable button/knob to explicitly invoke this function. It's amazing what where the gods of UX have taken us.

reaperducer 6y ago

the dude at Best Buy told me Since when do technical people believe dudes at Best Buy?

mikewhy 6y ago

The version of the OS that shipped with them has an unfortunate bug when reinstalling. IIRC it doesn't brick them, but it won't get passed the final stage when you create your account. In any case, the solution would be "download a newer version of the OS and make some installation media like a usb". Luckily, the recovery OS can still connect to wifi, so you can skip the whole "make an installation media" step. You just download the new installer and run it. It really doesn't seem bonkers to me.

EricE 6y ago

If you never ran software update and bought it the first day it was available then they are correct. If you ever updated the OS - even just once - then you had the patch for the recovery mode that had the bug. But even with the bugged first version of macOS, the laptops are still recoverable - you just need another Mac with Apple Configurator 2 to get around the bug. Something you would think the Geek Squad should be able to handle (yes, that was sarcasm). All you really needed to do was boot into recovery mode, launch disk utility then nuke the disk. If they want to re-install the OS, let them. I ended up taking my Air back to Apple because it turned out I really do need more than 16GB for RAM for a few things (shoot!) and I just nuked the drive. They didn't even bat an eye.

omniscient_oce 6y ago

I'm still using a Macbook Air 2014 but looking at getting a new laptop. How are the new ones? Do they last as long and built as well as the old ones? Otherwise, does anyone know a good solid laptop that I can install linux on without driver / battery issues?

lovelyviking 6y ago
My new M1 is full of bugs and at this point after being downvoted here for stating the facts I do not care wether those are software bugs or hardware issues. It's the buggiest machine I ever had. It even became not bootable in the first day. And I mean completely not bootable. You can't boot it from external usb stick. You can't do anything without 'another Mac' to 'revive' it as they call it. (see here for description: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26203799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26203799 and I have described more of the bugs in this thread) I can't say this about MacBookPro of 2009. This one worked. But the model of 2015 just have fallen apart. (You can dig in my comments how. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25809097 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25809097) This M1 became not bootable because their Disk Utility in recovery options become unresponsive at some point and then it showed black screen containing exclamation mark with url where they tell you that you need another Mac to revive this one. Somehow not this black screen with exclamation mark nor the web pages it points to did not mention that there is another boot option that is discussed here. Look for idiotic explanations for that fact around this thread. And see how I've been downvoted for stating that fact. "Very fast" some say? I still wish to see it, because so far it feels just like the one I had before or slower! I am not talking about benchmarks, I am talking about day to day experience. Example: Screen shot (cmd-shift-4) takes ~1-2 seconds for cross-cursor to appear. The saddest thing that all of my attempts to communicate about the problems are ignored or facing downvotes instead of digging into it and trying to find out why it happened which was my initial intent and what I was expecting to happen at least here. Instead I observe some bs like "oh, I never heard about any problems or let's ignore those problems because perhaps it's your hardware". But even if it is? It's still an issue! BTW I ran apple diagnostics and it shows "no issues found". So I've seen no evidence for any hardware issues so far. With such attitude when attack goes toward the messenger and not toward the problem It's hard for me to expect a brighter future with that or that those issues would be fixed. They perhaps would simply pretend that nothing has happened and everything is perfect. And at this point I am getting sick of this BS. If this bullying mechanism would not be removed from HN I see no reason to be reasonable here or trying to contribute

IgniteTheSun 6y ago

"So it had to download ~3gb to update the OS, just to wipe itself." Similarly, if one wants to replace Windows 10S with Linux, have to either have or create a Microsoft account and then have to upgrade to Windows Home via a large download ...

alsetmusic 6y ago
> have to either have or create a Microsoft account There’s a link near the bottom of the window to skip creating an MS account. Source: I did this last week.
- IgniteTheSun 6y ago
  I both looked for and searched for a way to do so without a Microsoft account about a month ago - could not upgrade to Windows 10 Home without it and could not remove 10S without upgrading it first. I had downloaded a copy of Windows directly from Microsoft but could not use it because the Windows 10S was preinstalled by the OEM and did not come with a windows key code.
- xodice 6y ago
  This does not exist in Home versions of Windows 10 unless there is no active network connection.