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I'm increasingly of the opinion that grouping school children with others kids their age is hugely damaging. The major figures in most kid's lives are parents

I'm increasingly of the opinion that grouping school children with others kids their age is hugely damaging. The major figures in most kid's lives are parents and teachers, who are in an authority position; siblings, who have a complex relationship that often turns competitive; and their school friends. Kids are missing a chance to socialise with children who are older than them, learn from adults who are not in an authority role, and to care for and mentor younger children. Instead they spend all their time with other kids who are have they exact same emotionally immaturity as they do. You get feedback loops of bad behaviour, and put them in bubbles where their peers and their psychopathic games (like bullying) make up 100% of their reality. The only consistent counterpoint I can think of are cousins, who are typically slightly older or younger, and are outside of kids' normal peer groups. As a result these are often very positive relationships.

johnchristopher 6y ago
> Instead they spend all their time with other kids who are have they exact same emotionally immaturity as they do. I don't think that's true but I agree with your other points if we agree that emotional maturity isn't a true false stage and that there are domains for which one isn't as mature as in another domain. For instance, I learned at a very young age (3 or 4) that hurting others was actually painful for the other part. Not from receiving it myself but from giving it. From then I could never engage in confrontation/retaliation dynamics which put me at odds with others.
vinceguidry 6y ago
You know I really think you're on to something there. I distinctly remember being in middle school and not wanting to associate with anyone my age. Few years older, great, few years younger, great. But it just wasn't pleasant to try to maintain friendships with my peers. The constant social competitiveness just really irked me. I always preferred one-on-one socializing rather than groups. If I didn't like how one of my older friends was treating me, well, I didn't have to knock on his door for awhile. And when I started bullying the younger kids I would hang out with, I was able to reflect on it later and stop being such an ass. Course, it would come out anyway, but not being trapped in one single group of friends and having to derive my social identity from that made it much easier to self-adjust. Looking back on those years, it's pretty obvious now just how much of what I experienced back then was that pecking order mindset.
msluyter 6y ago
I've often thought this -- age stratification to our current degree is a relatively new (20th century?) phenomenon, and seems under-studied. I think the awareness came to my mind when I went to a number of mixed polka/swing dances back in like 1999 put on by the local Czech center. It was a rare mix of seniors doing traditional polka side by side with college students (who were brought in by the swing dancing) along with other adults, their kids, 5 year olds running around, etc... And then we'd do goofy dances like the Hokey Pokey or the Chicken Dance. (This was via the eclectic and fun band, "Brave Combo.") The entire mix felt weirdly... healthy. One reason we chose a private girl's school for our daughter is that, along with traditional (horizontal) grades, it has "sister groups," which are vertical slices of girls from varying grade levels. These meet and socialize throughout the year.
yowlingcat 6y ago
Insightful point. This kinda reminds me of stereotypical SV startups with only young employees. Without peers who are more experienced and often psychologically more well-equipped to handle adversity, you see a lot of situations that could otherwise be learning moments instead become blow ups. I suppose that's not the only parallel. Absentee authority figures is another one.
Tyr42 6y ago
I would say positive things about martial arts dojos, where the experienced students often practice with the less so students to pass down skills. At least my Judo one was like that.
- Zelphyr 6y ago
  Jiu Jitsu is the same way. I learn as much from “mentoring” lower belts as I do from training with upper belts. I also learn how much I don’t know from both.
hi5eyes 6y ago
it's unfortunate most kids dont get a skilled mentor by middle school. I had friends that were older than me, and my uncle, both got me interested in tech/"hacking". eventually the school let some of us help do some tech support. its such a waste of time to stuff kids into a room with no direction, just to fulfill gen ed requirements so the school boards ranks better. I had a friend get hired into tech straight out of highschool without a degree while everyone else wasted time in undergrad
- sitkack 6y ago
  Imagine if we lived in a society healthy enough that kids could have more of a proto-adult status. Kids are told they have to wait for certain times or ages to do things. That is a HS level shop thing. Oh you need calculus for that and that isn't till college. We should find a way to empower any kid with ambition to take that as far as they want as early as they want.
  - ip26 6y ago
    I wanted to run the huge 24” table saw in shop when I was 12. I’m glad no one let me.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      What about you being twelve made you less safe than someone of sixteen? "Don't put fingers on the metal bit" isn't a terribly complex lesson, about on par with "don't touch the stove when it's hot" or "curl your fingers when cutting downwards".
      - ip26 6y ago
        Less strength, focus, reach, coordination, awareness, probably less responsible... anyway, a large table saw is one of the most dangerous power tools in a wood shop. There’s just no reason a 12 year old needs to assume that risk. We had unfettered use of band saws, drills, jig saws, sanders, and all kinds of equipment. You don’t need to run the table saw to learn woodworking. I think about this as a parent. Letting your kid take risks is good. A jig saw can hurt! But that doesn’t mean a child should be taking mortal risk. A table saw can absolutely kill you.
ravenstine 6y ago
I don't think this is true across the board. In my experience, the broader culture can make a huge difference. For instance, like many others, I was bullied every single day in middle and high school in the US. When I moved to NZ and went to high school(called "college" there), I was dumbstruck at how accepting people were of me, as someone who has been constantly bullied back in the US, that I had a hard time accepting it at first. I was so used to being an outcast that I didn't know how to handle it at first when normal kids would actually approach me in a non-confrontational way. By the end of the year, the most popular guy in the school was voluntarily helping me study for chemistry. Now some of that experience may have been influenced by me being a foreigner, but my bullying was due to a combination of being nerdy and fat, so it would have made sense if at least some people bullied me in NZ. There was pretty much only one kid who didn't like me and had to make a show of it, but he was easily handled. Put simply, I think that culture in the US and probably other western countries that are heavily US-influenced is woefully broken, but it isn't as apparent to the conscious mind because we've become very good at polishing turds. We love to paint over rot and create rules for ourselves that just sweep problems under the rug so that they only manifest in places out of our control, such as with the interactions between children. To your point, though... > Instead they spend all their time with other kids who are have they exact same emotionally immaturity as they do. You get feedback loops of bad behaviour, and put them in bubbles where their peers and their psychopathic games (like bullying) make up 100% of their reality. This is true in more ways that you might have originally imagined. Young people, and really people of all ages IMO, should be learning from their elders. Instead, we put way too much emphasis on mere socialization and compatibility. In adulthood we're even worse in these categories in that we either socialize too much or too little, and fewer of us will tolerate anyone who doesn't tick off all our arbitrary boxes. > The only consistent counterpoint I can think of are cousins, who are typically slightly older or younger, and are outside of kids' normal peer groups. As a result these are often very positive relationships. Cousins, unlike siblings, aren't competing with their fellow cousins over the love of their own parents, so it makes sense that these relationships tend to be positive.
- Izkata 6y ago
  It's also highly variable within the US. Bullying just about nonexistent at my highschool. At around 2k students, there were just too many kids for the bullies to get away with anything, so they tended to self-segregate and not really do much (at least, that's my theory - almost everyone I knew in college who heard of the size of my school was shocked at how large it was, and in my much-smaller elementary and middle schools there was a good amount of bullying).
andrewflnr 6y ago
I don't know if I've thought about this before or what, but now that you've said it, it seems obviously true. Not that mixing older and younger little monsters is necessarily a panacea (I bet it would be rocky if you started tomorrow). But strict stratification can't be optimal. Other point about cousin relationships: interaction typically happens in a context that includes other adults, another moderating influence. I think that also runs in favor of your point.
Zelphyr 6y ago
One of the benefits of Montessori is you have kids with two years age difference in the same classroom. If you’re in the 8th grade then you’re in a class with 9th and 7th graders.

johnchristopher 6y ago

> Instead they spend all their time with other kids who are have they exact same emotionally immaturity as they do. I don't think that's true but I agree with your other points if we agree that emotional maturity isn't a true false stage and that there are domains for which one isn't as mature as in another domain. For instance, I learned at a very young age (3 or 4) that hurting others was actually painful for the other part. Not from receiving it myself but from giving it. From then I could never engage in confrontation/retaliation dynamics which put me at odds with others.

vinceguidry 6y ago

You know I really think you're on to something there. I distinctly remember being in middle school and not wanting to associate with anyone my age. Few years older, great, few years younger, great. But it just wasn't pleasant to try to maintain friendships with my peers. The constant social competitiveness just really irked me. I always preferred one-on-one socializing rather than groups. If I didn't like how one of my older friends was treating me, well, I didn't have to knock on his door for awhile. And when I started bullying the younger kids I would hang out with, I was able to reflect on it later and stop being such an ass. Course, it would come out anyway, but not being trapped in one single group of friends and having to derive my social identity from that made it much easier to self-adjust. Looking back on those years, it's pretty obvious now just how much of what I experienced back then was that pecking order mindset.

msluyter 6y ago

I've often thought this -- age stratification to our current degree is a relatively new (20th century?) phenomenon, and seems under-studied. I think the awareness came to my mind when I went to a number of mixed polka/swing dances back in like 1999 put on by the local Czech center. It was a rare mix of seniors doing traditional polka side by side with college students (who were brought in by the swing dancing) along with other adults, their kids, 5 year olds running around, etc... And then we'd do goofy dances like the Hokey Pokey or the Chicken Dance. (This was via the eclectic and fun band, "Brave Combo.") The entire mix felt weirdly... healthy. One reason we chose a private girl's school for our daughter is that, along with traditional (horizontal) grades, it has "sister groups," which are vertical slices of girls from varying grade levels. These meet and socialize throughout the year.

yowlingcat 6y ago

Insightful point. This kinda reminds me of stereotypical SV startups with only young employees. Without peers who are more experienced and often psychologically more well-equipped to handle adversity, you see a lot of situations that could otherwise be learning moments instead become blow ups. I suppose that's not the only parallel. Absentee authority figures is another one.

Tyr42 6y ago

I would say positive things about martial arts dojos, where the experienced students often practice with the less so students to pass down skills. At least my Judo one was like that.

Zelphyr 6y ago
Jiu Jitsu is the same way. I learn as much from “mentoring” lower belts as I do from training with upper belts. I also learn how much I don’t know from both.

hi5eyes 6y ago

it's unfortunate most kids dont get a skilled mentor by middle school. I had friends that were older than me, and my uncle, both got me interested in tech/"hacking". eventually the school let some of us help do some tech support. its such a waste of time to stuff kids into a room with no direction, just to fulfill gen ed requirements so the school boards ranks better. I had a friend get hired into tech straight out of highschool without a degree while everyone else wasted time in undergrad

sitkack 6y ago
Imagine if we lived in a society healthy enough that kids could have more of a proto-adult status. Kids are told they have to wait for certain times or ages to do things. That is a HS level shop thing. Oh you need calculus for that and that isn't till college. We should find a way to empower any kid with ambition to take that as far as they want as early as they want.
- ip26 6y ago
  I wanted to run the huge 24” table saw in shop when I was 12. I’m glad no one let me.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    What about you being twelve made you less safe than someone of sixteen? "Don't put fingers on the metal bit" isn't a terribly complex lesson, about on par with "don't touch the stove when it's hot" or "curl your fingers when cutting downwards".
    - ip26 6y ago
      Less strength, focus, reach, coordination, awareness, probably less responsible... anyway, a large table saw is one of the most dangerous power tools in a wood shop. There’s just no reason a 12 year old needs to assume that risk. We had unfettered use of band saws, drills, jig saws, sanders, and all kinds of equipment. You don’t need to run the table saw to learn woodworking. I think about this as a parent. Letting your kid take risks is good. A jig saw can hurt! But that doesn’t mean a child should be taking mortal risk. A table saw can absolutely kill you.

ravenstine 6y ago

I don't think this is true across the board. In my experience, the broader culture can make a huge difference. For instance, like many others, I was bullied every single day in middle and high school in the US. When I moved to NZ and went to high school(called "college" there), I was dumbstruck at how accepting people were of me, as someone who has been constantly bullied back in the US, that I had a hard time accepting it at first. I was so used to being an outcast that I didn't know how to handle it at first when normal kids would actually approach me in a non-confrontational way. By the end of the year, the most popular guy in the school was voluntarily helping me study for chemistry. Now some of that experience may have been influenced by me being a foreigner, but my bullying was due to a combination of being nerdy and fat, so it would have made sense if at least some people bullied me in NZ. There was pretty much only one kid who didn't like me and had to make a show of it, but he was easily handled. Put simply, I think that culture in the US and probably other western countries that are heavily US-influenced is woefully broken, but it isn't as apparent to the conscious mind because we've become very good at polishing turds. We love to paint over rot and create rules for ourselves that just sweep problems under the rug so that they only manifest in places out of our control, such as with the interactions between children. To your point, though... > Instead they spend all their time with other kids who are have they exact same emotionally immaturity as they do. You get feedback loops of bad behaviour, and put them in bubbles where their peers and their psychopathic games (like bullying) make up 100% of their reality. This is true in more ways that you might have originally imagined. Young people, and really people of all ages IMO, should be learning from their elders. Instead, we put way too much emphasis on mere socialization and compatibility. In adulthood we're even worse in these categories in that we either socialize too much or too little, and fewer of us will tolerate anyone who doesn't tick off all our arbitrary boxes. > The only consistent counterpoint I can think of are cousins, who are typically slightly older or younger, and are outside of kids' normal peer groups. As a result these are often very positive relationships. Cousins, unlike siblings, aren't competing with their fellow cousins over the love of their own parents, so it makes sense that these relationships tend to be positive.

Izkata 6y ago
It's also highly variable within the US. Bullying just about nonexistent at my highschool. At around 2k students, there were just too many kids for the bullies to get away with anything, so they tended to self-segregate and not really do much (at least, that's my theory - almost everyone I knew in college who heard of the size of my school was shocked at how large it was, and in my much-smaller elementary and middle schools there was a good amount of bullying).

andrewflnr 6y ago

I don't know if I've thought about this before or what, but now that you've said it, it seems obviously true. Not that mixing older and younger little monsters is necessarily a panacea (I bet it would be rocky if you started tomorrow). But strict stratification can't be optimal. Other point about cousin relationships: interaction typically happens in a context that includes other adults, another moderating influence. I think that also runs in favor of your point.

Zelphyr 6y ago

One of the benefits of Montessori is you have kids with two years age difference in the same classroom. If you’re in the 8th grade then you’re in a class with 9th and 7th graders.