21 ms·

In the 90s part of Germany's air traffic control software ran on Emacs

241 points by omaranto 6y ago

noir_lord 6y ago
> In Germany, a Herr Doktor is always right (they have forgiven Moses by now for not having space on the stone tablets, but it really is the 11th Commandment) > Pro tip: don't look in the kitchen when governments brew up safety critical systems. I was scared to fly over Germany for a while... The author has a lovely writing style for this kind of content.
- skytreader 6y ago
  I liked the account but to be honest this line about Herr Doktor and Moses really flew over my head. It's just a bunch of cultural allusions but I don't see how they connect. - Herr Doktor is a traditional German title, roughly equivalent to the more-known "Doctor of Medicine (MD)" or "Juris Doctor (JD)". - Is the allusion to Moses due to this story being post-war/unification and Moses is a Jewish figure? (There might be technicalities between "Jew", "Israelite", and "Abrahamic" but I'm even more ignorant here than I am of German customs.) - Is "space on the stone tablets", "11th Commandment" an allusion to the (in)famous German noun-phrases? Like "Wohnungsgeberbestatigung" which is actually three words (trans: "apartment-provider's confirmation"/"landlord's confirmation"). So...explainer from anyone who got this line?
  - LordN00b 6y ago
    It's a humurous statement about arrogance, in a nutshell : The Doctor is always correct, no matter the context. The Moses 11th Commandment, is a comment on the biblical story of Moses. He was given 10 laws from God, and etched them onto a stone tablet. The Doctors of Germany are annoyed becuase the there should have beeen an 11th COmmandandment and it should have been, 'The Doctor is always correct'. The Doctors of Germany have forgiven God for this oversight.
  - BillyTheKing 6y ago
    I feel like you might be overthinking this a little ;) it's simply that commonly and (mostly) ironically Mose's commands are seen as the corner-stone of Christian societies. And since the fact that ein Herr Doctor is always right is such a fundamental law in German society (again, this is obviously a hyperbole and meant ironically) one would've expected it to be included in Mose's list of commands. But since it isn't, ehe only rational reason for it to have been omitted must've been the fact that he didn't have much space left for that 11th command. That's all.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      Oh. That makes sense. Herr Doktor just means Mister Doctor. "The Doctor is always right is the 11th commandment. Moses ran out of space to add that to the stone tablets (where he wrote the first ten)." I think it is worded awkwardly. I also had trouble parsing that.
      - chiph 6y ago
        German is also famous for stringing several words together, so you will also see "Herr Doktoringenieur" for someone who has a PhD in engineering. And is even more right than a regular Herr Doctor because he is also an Engineer.
        yokaze 6y ago
        > Doktoringenieur Never seen it in practical German though. > And is even more right than a regular Herr Doctor because he is also an Engineer. On the contrary. The traditional universities didn't want to accept technical universities as full ones.A full university is supposed to have theology, jurisprudence, philosophy and medicine. Technical universities were more practical oriented and to some degree looked down upon. So they couldn't give "proper" doctor titles. Just "dr.-ing." (note the hyphen), compared to "Dr. Med.", "Dr. Phil."... The Dutch apparently do have a double title for doctors, which are also engineers.
        coldtea 6y ago
  - progfix 6y ago
    The old testament says that Moses received the 10 commandements from god and he wrote them down on stone tablets. The author says that people with a doctor degree are always right. Moses would have written that down as well but he had no space on his stone tablets left.
  - simson 6y ago
    Doktor is also the equivalent of a PhD. He probably had a PhD in CompSciene.
    - choeger 6y ago
      Or in Math or some engineering field. CS wasn't a thing in German universities until the 70s, I think. So for someone in a senior position in 1990 it seems quite likely to be around 50, too old to have finished a PhD program around 1980.
      - philjohn 6y ago
        Yes - there are quite a few engineering doctors in Germany - the ex-CEO of Daimler is one, Dr Dieter Zetsche. My dad worked a lot in Germany for Dow Corning in the 80's and 90's and it's a very distinct engineering culture from many other places.
    - mhd 6y ago
      More likely to be anything else but CS (and frankly, medicine). A doctorate in almost anything plus a smart suit gets you into management track quickly. There's a reason why Germany had quite a number of fake doctorate scandals in politics. And probably will continue to do so for a while... Most of which have been JDs, by the way, which are both rarer and more important sounding in Germany. And if you think this is getting a bit ridiculous, let me introduce you to our neighbor Austria. Take it away, Herr Geheimrat…
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    To add to the other explanations, there are Herr Doktors that think so high of themselves that they put the title everywhere, business cards, emails addresses, name on the letter box, and everywhere else they are supposed to write the name, you even get to write it on personal data online forms. Coming from a country (Portugal) where having an Engineering degree still has a similar connotation and there are still some that make the point to be called Eng. SoAndSo, specially on smaller towns and villages, it was kind of ironic to find a society where it is taken to the next level.
    - brmgb 6y ago
      I find the situation even funnier when you consider that France, Germany main partner in the European Union and direct neighbor, views having a PhD outside of research as a waste of time and something which will be held against you. The cultural differences between European countries are fascinating.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Indeed, however I feel when you immerse into local culture, eventually we find out there is a thin common culture across the continent, regarding what everyone was watching while growing up or certain points of view versus other continents.
        hencq 6y ago
        As a European living in the US, I think Europeans have much more in common than they think. The differences between countries seem big until you're looking at them from a distance. I'd even argue that the UK has more in common with 'the continent' than with the US.
        pezezin 6y ago
        As an European living in Japan, I totally agree with you. And obviously Western countries (including AU and NZ) have much more in common with each other than with Asian/African/whatever countries.
  - wiredfool 6y ago
    Honorifics are cultural. In undergraduate -- It was always Professor LastName. In grad school, other cost, it was Doctor Lastname. We had a discussion there, and learned that in Germany, it was Herr Doctor Professor Lastname.
    - Tomte 6y ago
      Little fix in the order: Herr Professor Doktor. But only in formal writing. When talking to them, it's Herr Professor. Austria loves their honorifics, though. Every school teacher is a Professor, and the Professor's wife is Mrs. Professor.
      - t0astbread 6y ago
        *every school teacher after secondary school. Before that they're still mostly "Mr./Mrs. Teacher".
      - jsdwarf 6y ago
        Small correction: only grammar school teachers are called Professors in Austria, junior high school teachers just "Herr/Frau LehrerIn". In earlier days, you needed a master degree to teach in grammar school and just a bachelor degree for junior high.
      - jsdwarf 6y ago
        Strictly speaking, only Austrian grammar school teachers appointed as civil servants were allowed to carry the title Professor. That appointment (Pragmatisierung) is somewhat comparable to academic tenure: you had a job guarantee and the right to stay at "your" school, whereas non-tenured teachers had to switch schools in case of insufficient work hours. But a tenured teacher had a lower salary compared to a non-tenured one and so emperor Franz Josef had the idea with the additional Professor title. A smart move, because he satisfied the academic "vanity" of the teachers which kept salary costs lower. Since the difference between tenured and non-tenured teachers is beyond the understanding of 10-18 year old pupils, they called every teacher "Professor".
      - burntoutfire 6y ago
  - bitwize 6y ago
    The idea is that "a Herr Doktor is always right" is a holy commandment in Germany, just as important as the other ten and it should be noted along with the other ten. He's saying the Germans have forgiven Moses by now for leaving it out, but they still consider it as much a holy commandment as the others.
  - zxcvbn4038 6y ago
    You aren’t a Mel Brooks fan? “The lord has given me these fifteen *trip* these ten commandments..”
  - coldtea 6y ago
    (a) Herr Doktor = the professor (the academic, the PhD guy, the big fish in a goverment organization, the one with the most credentials) (b) "Herr Doktor is always right" - a central tenet of German society (or basically, organization politics) according to the author. (c) Such a central tenet that it should have been on Moses tablets as the 11th commandment, but Moses run out of space. (d) Benevolent as they are, however, the Doktors, forgave Moses for that oversight.
  - mobutu 6y ago
    Are you autistic?
- consumer451 6y ago
  Found the author's blog in the reddit comments: http://evrl.com/ http://evrl.com/
ggm 6y ago
Its a kind of "vm" It has something morally akin to pickle. So checkpoints of prior runstates. It has strengths, basically. I interviewed a really gifted young programmer who'd been working on trafficlight control systems, coded in lisp. Emacs lisp? OK that's.. idiosyncratic, but are we now saying C99 isn't C? We didn't appoint but, I think she was a brilliant coder and I trust trafficlight systems coded in lisp so why not ATC?
- TacticalCoder 6y ago
  > Its a kind of "vm" It has something morally akin to pickle. ... Your comments here on HN hardly ever make any sense and they show a complete lack of understanding of both how coordinating conjunctions and punctuation work. They look like some keywords sorta related to the article but pieced together using a Markov chain or something like that. I'm not a native english speaker but when I post in english I try to make at least semi-coherent sentences and I try to pay attention to punctuation. Your comments are all so weird that I don't even need to read your username when I stumble upon one of them: I know it's you. Your answers to people asking you why you are acting so weird also don't make any sense: it's more of the same nonsense. I don't usually complain much here but it'd be nice if you stopped acting full on crazy. Basically everything you post is so weird I'm wondering if I'm not talking to a bot and if that bot is not going to spout of the same non-sense in response. And if that's the case, well, I feel like HN would be a better place without that kind of pollution...
  - calmingsolitude 6y ago
    This is probably someone's attempt at training a model on HN comments.
    - awiesenhofer 6y ago
      7k+ karma, seems to be working?
    - ggm 6y ago
      Mark V Shaney was brilliant. Rob Pike. Not I.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
usrusr 6y ago
So basically he offers someone desperate a very questionable solution to his problem and then later mocks him for using that questionable solution?
- owlmirror 6y ago
  Well Lisp was not in the budget and the responsible person (the Dr. he is talking about) insisted on it. So he gave him what he could, but was not convinced that it was the right choice. If my project lead asks me to solve a problem with unreasonable requirements I will point out the problems but will still do it, in the end it's not my call. But I'm still free to criticize the work.
mucholove 6y ago
Found it! Amazon also used to run on Emacs. > Mailman was the Customer Service customer-email processing application for ... four, five years? A long time, anyway. It was written in Emacs. Everyone loved it. > People still love it. To this very day, I still have to listen to long stories from our non-technical folks about how much they miss Mailman. I See more here : https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel#TOC-Lisp https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel#TOC-...
- orf 6y ago
  Interesting take on Python there, not sure it's aged well: > Well, they're just like the Smalltalk folks, who waited forever to replace C++, and then Java came along and screwed them royally, and permanently. Oops. Ruby's doing exactly that to Python, right now, today. Practically overnight. > Python would have taken over the world, but it has two fatal flaws: the whitespace thing, and the permafrost thing.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Yeah, he was totally wrong on Python. That being said, I'm not sure he would have predicted that data science would be what pushed Python into a better place. Very few people would have, certainly around 2004 or earlier when he was writing it.
    - tgv 6y ago
      I think teaching made Python what it is today. First, so many introductory courses have been using Python, and the more advanced courses (outside CS) followed. Second, I also think that there are (many) more people doing mundane stuff, like web development, than data science.
      - n4r9 6y ago
        I think both of these things are a direct consequence of the natural-language-like syntax, libraries, and lack of boilerplate.
iso1210 6y ago
EMACS, a great air traffic controller, but really could do with a good text editor.
choeger 6y ago
Basically an early incarnation of what electron does today, no?
- psanford 6y ago
  No.
- sitkack 6y ago
  Yes, at a certain abstraction level, Yes! It provides a high level framework to run user code and handle IO. Folks that use Emacs or Vi (famously Mutt) to drive their console apps is very similar to how folks use Electron for desktop applications.
thoweriu23434 6y ago
Amusingly, a lot of flight search continues to run on Lisp at Google (QPX).
walshemj 6y ago
Surprised the VMS guys just did not already know about emacs as TECO was one of the forbears of emacs I believe.
- p_l 6y ago
  TECO on VMS was much less capable compared to MIT TECO, and was IIRC optional and rarely installed. And while original EMACS was written as TECO macros, the experience of using them was completely different. I could use original EMACS, but TECO would leave me completely lost.
drudru11 6y ago
I think the Caltrain people ran their stuff on emacs too. https://groups.google.com/g/iphonewebdev/c/s3h8PRyfmDI https://groups.google.com/g/iphonewebdev/c/s3h8PRyfmDI
InfiniteRand 6y ago
Well, at least they didn’t write it in Jovial

241 points by omaranto 6y ago

> In Germany, a Herr Doktor is always right (they have forgiven Moses by now for not having space on the stone tablets, but it really is the 11th Commandment) > Pro tip: don't look in the kitchen when governments brew up safety critical systems. I was scared to fly over Germany for a while... The author has a lovely writing style for this kind of content.

skytreader 6y ago
I liked the account but to be honest this line about Herr Doktor and Moses really flew over my head. It's just a bunch of cultural allusions but I don't see how they connect. - Herr Doktor is a traditional German title, roughly equivalent to the more-known "Doctor of Medicine (MD)" or "Juris Doctor (JD)". - Is the allusion to Moses due to this story being post-war/unification and Moses is a Jewish figure? (There might be technicalities between "Jew", "Israelite", and "Abrahamic" but I'm even more ignorant here than I am of German customs.) - Is "space on the stone tablets", "11th Commandment" an allusion to the (in)famous German noun-phrases? Like "Wohnungsgeberbestatigung" which is actually three words (trans: "apartment-provider's confirmation"/"landlord's confirmation"). So...explainer from anyone who got this line?
- LordN00b 6y ago
  It's a humurous statement about arrogance, in a nutshell : The Doctor is always correct, no matter the context. The Moses 11th Commandment, is a comment on the biblical story of Moses. He was given 10 laws from God, and etched them onto a stone tablet. The Doctors of Germany are annoyed becuase the there should have beeen an 11th COmmandandment and it should have been, 'The Doctor is always correct'. The Doctors of Germany have forgiven God for this oversight.
- BillyTheKing 6y ago
  I feel like you might be overthinking this a little ;) it's simply that commonly and (mostly) ironically Mose's commands are seen as the corner-stone of Christian societies. And since the fact that ein Herr Doctor is always right is such a fundamental law in German society (again, this is obviously a hyperbole and meant ironically) one would've expected it to be included in Mose's list of commands. But since it isn't, ehe only rational reason for it to have been omitted must've been the fact that he didn't have much space left for that 11th command. That's all.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    Oh. That makes sense. Herr Doktor just means Mister Doctor. "The Doctor is always right is the 11th commandment. Moses ran out of space to add that to the stone tablets (where he wrote the first ten)." I think it is worded awkwardly. I also had trouble parsing that.
    - chiph 6y ago
      German is also famous for stringing several words together, so you will also see "Herr Doktoringenieur" for someone who has a PhD in engineering. And is even more right than a regular Herr Doctor because he is also an Engineer.
      - yokaze 6y ago
        > Doktoringenieur Never seen it in practical German though. > And is even more right than a regular Herr Doctor because he is also an Engineer. On the contrary. The traditional universities didn't want to accept technical universities as full ones.A full university is supposed to have theology, jurisprudence, philosophy and medicine. Technical universities were more practical oriented and to some degree looked down upon. So they couldn't give "proper" doctor titles. Just "dr.-ing." (note the hyphen), compared to "Dr. Med.", "Dr. Phil."... The Dutch apparently do have a double title for doctors, which are also engineers.
        coldtea 6y ago
- progfix 6y ago
  The old testament says that Moses received the 10 commandements from god and he wrote them down on stone tablets. The author says that people with a doctor degree are always right. Moses would have written that down as well but he had no space on his stone tablets left.
- simson 6y ago
  Doktor is also the equivalent of a PhD. He probably had a PhD in CompSciene.
  - choeger 6y ago
    Or in Math or some engineering field. CS wasn't a thing in German universities until the 70s, I think. So for someone in a senior position in 1990 it seems quite likely to be around 50, too old to have finished a PhD program around 1980.
    - philjohn 6y ago
      Yes - there are quite a few engineering doctors in Germany - the ex-CEO of Daimler is one, Dr Dieter Zetsche. My dad worked a lot in Germany for Dow Corning in the 80's and 90's and it's a very distinct engineering culture from many other places.
  - mhd 6y ago
    More likely to be anything else but CS (and frankly, medicine). A doctorate in almost anything plus a smart suit gets you into management track quickly. There's a reason why Germany had quite a number of fake doctorate scandals in politics. And probably will continue to do so for a while... Most of which have been JDs, by the way, which are both rarer and more important sounding in Germany. And if you think this is getting a bit ridiculous, let me introduce you to our neighbor Austria. Take it away, Herr Geheimrat…
- pjmlp 6y ago
  To add to the other explanations, there are Herr Doktors that think so high of themselves that they put the title everywhere, business cards, emails addresses, name on the letter box, and everywhere else they are supposed to write the name, you even get to write it on personal data online forms. Coming from a country (Portugal) where having an Engineering degree still has a similar connotation and there are still some that make the point to be called Eng. SoAndSo, specially on smaller towns and villages, it was kind of ironic to find a society where it is taken to the next level.
  - brmgb 6y ago
    I find the situation even funnier when you consider that France, Germany main partner in the European Union and direct neighbor, views having a PhD outside of research as a waste of time and something which will be held against you. The cultural differences between European countries are fascinating.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Indeed, however I feel when you immerse into local culture, eventually we find out there is a thin common culture across the continent, regarding what everyone was watching while growing up or certain points of view versus other continents.
      - hencq 6y ago
        As a European living in the US, I think Europeans have much more in common than they think. The differences between countries seem big until you're looking at them from a distance. I'd even argue that the UK has more in common with 'the continent' than with the US.
        pezezin 6y ago
        As an European living in Japan, I totally agree with you. And obviously Western countries (including AU and NZ) have much more in common with each other than with Asian/African/whatever countries.
- wiredfool 6y ago
  Honorifics are cultural. In undergraduate -- It was always Professor LastName. In grad school, other cost, it was Doctor Lastname. We had a discussion there, and learned that in Germany, it was Herr Doctor Professor Lastname.
  - Tomte 6y ago
    Little fix in the order: Herr Professor Doktor. But only in formal writing. When talking to them, it's Herr Professor. Austria loves their honorifics, though. Every school teacher is a Professor, and the Professor's wife is Mrs. Professor.
    - t0astbread 6y ago
      *every school teacher after secondary school. Before that they're still mostly "Mr./Mrs. Teacher".
    - jsdwarf 6y ago
      Small correction: only grammar school teachers are called Professors in Austria, junior high school teachers just "Herr/Frau LehrerIn". In earlier days, you needed a master degree to teach in grammar school and just a bachelor degree for junior high.
    - jsdwarf 6y ago
      Strictly speaking, only Austrian grammar school teachers appointed as civil servants were allowed to carry the title Professor. That appointment (Pragmatisierung) is somewhat comparable to academic tenure: you had a job guarantee and the right to stay at "your" school, whereas non-tenured teachers had to switch schools in case of insufficient work hours. But a tenured teacher had a lower salary compared to a non-tenured one and so emperor Franz Josef had the idea with the additional Professor title. A smart move, because he satisfied the academic "vanity" of the teachers which kept salary costs lower. Since the difference between tenured and non-tenured teachers is beyond the understanding of 10-18 year old pupils, they called every teacher "Professor".
    - burntoutfire 6y ago
- bitwize 6y ago
  The idea is that "a Herr Doktor is always right" is a holy commandment in Germany, just as important as the other ten and it should be noted along with the other ten. He's saying the Germans have forgiven Moses by now for leaving it out, but they still consider it as much a holy commandment as the others.
- zxcvbn4038 6y ago
  You aren’t a Mel Brooks fan? “The lord has given me these fifteen *trip* these ten commandments..”
- coldtea 6y ago
  (a) Herr Doktor = the professor (the academic, the PhD guy, the big fish in a goverment organization, the one with the most credentials) (b) "Herr Doktor is always right" - a central tenet of German society (or basically, organization politics) according to the author. (c) Such a central tenet that it should have been on Moses tablets as the 11th commandment, but Moses run out of space. (d) Benevolent as they are, however, the Doktors, forgave Moses for that oversight.
- mobutu 6y ago
  Are you autistic?
consumer451 6y ago
Found the author's blog in the reddit comments: http://evrl.com/ http://evrl.com/

ggm 6y ago

Its a kind of "vm" It has something morally akin to pickle. So checkpoints of prior runstates. It has strengths, basically. I interviewed a really gifted young programmer who'd been working on trafficlight control systems, coded in lisp. Emacs lisp? OK that's.. idiosyncratic, but are we now saying C99 isn't C? We didn't appoint but, I think she was a brilliant coder and I trust trafficlight systems coded in lisp so why not ATC?

TacticalCoder 6y ago
> Its a kind of "vm" It has something morally akin to pickle. ... Your comments here on HN hardly ever make any sense and they show a complete lack of understanding of both how coordinating conjunctions and punctuation work. They look like some keywords sorta related to the article but pieced together using a Markov chain or something like that. I'm not a native english speaker but when I post in english I try to make at least semi-coherent sentences and I try to pay attention to punctuation. Your comments are all so weird that I don't even need to read your username when I stumble upon one of them: I know it's you. Your answers to people asking you why you are acting so weird also don't make any sense: it's more of the same nonsense. I don't usually complain much here but it'd be nice if you stopped acting full on crazy. Basically everything you post is so weird I'm wondering if I'm not talking to a bot and if that bot is not going to spout of the same non-sense in response. And if that's the case, well, I feel like HN would be a better place without that kind of pollution...
- calmingsolitude 6y ago
  This is probably someone's attempt at training a model on HN comments.
  - awiesenhofer 6y ago
    7k+ karma, seems to be working?
  - ggm 6y ago
    Mark V Shaney was brilliant. Rob Pike. Not I.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

usrusr 6y ago

So basically he offers someone desperate a very questionable solution to his problem and then later mocks him for using that questionable solution?

owlmirror 6y ago
Well Lisp was not in the budget and the responsible person (the Dr. he is talking about) insisted on it. So he gave him what he could, but was not convinced that it was the right choice. If my project lead asks me to solve a problem with unreasonable requirements I will point out the problems but will still do it, in the end it's not my call. But I'm still free to criticize the work.

mucholove 6y ago

Found it! Amazon also used to run on Emacs. > Mailman was the Customer Service customer-email processing application for ... four, five years? A long time, anyway. It was written in Emacs. Everyone loved it. > People still love it. To this very day, I still have to listen to long stories from our non-technical folks about how much they miss Mailman. I See more here : https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel#TOC-Lisp https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel#TOC-...

orf 6y ago
Interesting take on Python there, not sure it's aged well: > Well, they're just like the Smalltalk folks, who waited forever to replace C++, and then Java came along and screwed them royally, and permanently. Oops. Ruby's doing exactly that to Python, right now, today. Practically overnight. > Python would have taken over the world, but it has two fatal flaws: the whitespace thing, and the permafrost thing.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  Yeah, he was totally wrong on Python. That being said, I'm not sure he would have predicted that data science would be what pushed Python into a better place. Very few people would have, certainly around 2004 or earlier when he was writing it.
  - tgv 6y ago
    I think teaching made Python what it is today. First, so many introductory courses have been using Python, and the more advanced courses (outside CS) followed. Second, I also think that there are (many) more people doing mundane stuff, like web development, than data science.
    - n4r9 6y ago
      I think both of these things are a direct consequence of the natural-language-like syntax, libraries, and lack of boilerplate.

iso1210 6y ago

EMACS, a great air traffic controller, but really could do with a good text editor.

choeger 6y ago

Basically an early incarnation of what electron does today, no?

psanford 6y ago
No.
sitkack 6y ago
Yes, at a certain abstraction level, Yes! It provides a high level framework to run user code and handle IO. Folks that use Emacs or Vi (famously Mutt) to drive their console apps is very similar to how folks use Electron for desktop applications.

thoweriu23434 6y ago

Amusingly, a lot of flight search continues to run on Lisp at Google (QPX).

walshemj 6y ago

Surprised the VMS guys just did not already know about emacs as TECO was one of the forbears of emacs I believe.

p_l 6y ago
TECO on VMS was much less capable compared to MIT TECO, and was IIRC optional and rarely installed. And while original EMACS was written as TECO macros, the experience of using them was completely different. I could use original EMACS, but TECO would leave me completely lost.

drudru11 6y ago

I think the Caltrain people ran their stuff on emacs too. https://groups.google.com/g/iphonewebdev/c/s3h8PRyfmDI https://groups.google.com/g/iphonewebdev/c/s3h8PRyfmDI

InfiniteRand 6y ago

Well, at least they didn’t write it in Jovial