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Why does 'nationalism' concern you. Is 'nationalism' always or almost always negative?
by 99_00 6y ago
Why does 'nationalism' concern you. Is 'nationalism' always or almost always negative?
- lotsofpulp 6y agoNationalism is always negative to me because I define it as blind allegiance to a tribe who you don't hold accountable.
- sremani 6y agoFirst world luxury - but the 2020s will teach a lesson about primacy of Nation-State. Watch the Germans.
- firstSpeaker 6y agoWhat do you mean? You just throw a sentence without adding any substance here.
- naruvimama 6y agoThat is actually quite brilliant. 1. The refugee crisis that Germany brought in not only on itself but on the rest of the EU. 2. The same Germany has recently spearheaded a trade deal with the devil. Germany used nationalism for the wrong reasons (short term gain and long term pain)
- the_only_law 6y agoYeah I think we’ve already seen enough German nationalism last century.
- indy 6y agounfortunately "blind allegiance to a tribe who you don't hold accountable" applies to almost everyone who regularly engages with social media.
- ziftface 6y agoMaybe so, but it becomes more serious when it's about policy. Not liking someone or leaving a snarky comment on twitter isn't the same as stripping people of citizenship or having state-sanctioned violence against a certain ethnic group.
- BitwiseFool 6y agoI'm increasingly worried about the decentralized mob-like "consequences" for problematic speech. Sure, it's not the government taking away tour citizenship or committing violence against you, but it's easy for your life to be destroyed by a single tweet or Facebook post. If tensions are especially high, you could have your home or business vandalized or burned down. Social media can whip people into a frenzy and create a tyranny worse than what the government can do because there is virtually no accountability. The court of public opinion doesn't let you appeal your sentence.
- 99_00 6y agoIs your personal definition the common one?
- lotsofpulp 6y agoI don't know. Merriam Webster has this: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism > loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
- john_max_1 6y agoIt is a privilege to say so, My wife's Christian family suffered a lot during Islamist-led civil war.
- lordleft 6y ago'nationalism' is typically distinguished from patriotism; the latter is a love of country -- the former is the conviction that one's country is better than other countries, on the basis of a rank tribalism.
- 99_00 6y agoFrom wikipedia: Nationalism is an idea and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people),[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5] and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][8][page needed] Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
- sremani 6y agoIn the mother of multicultural societies - Nationalism is the fine thread that holds the thing together. India without Indian-Nationalism is warring states inviting new colonial powers for piece of action. This has been predicament of India since Alexander the Great. Strong borders externally and shallow border internally with rivers flowing in different directions created disparate cultures and population centers. India without Indian Nationalism is Syria on Steroids.. You do not want to go there.
- sgift 6y agoFunny, there is a state in Europe which had exactly the same position: We are all individual states, we fight with each other, we are weak, we should be together under strong nationalism, so we aren't victims of others anymore and so on. That country was Germany, which unified in 1871. Two world wars later and we've decided that maybe Nationalism isn't such a great thing. But you do you. Have fun.
- senthil_rajasek 6y agoI found this segment on Amanpour & Co. helpful in understanding nationalism and how it's used by fascists. https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-company/video/how-fascism-works-a-warning-for-the-u-s/ https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-company/video/how-fasc... My take away was fascists gain compliance by nationalism above anything including basic human rights.
- sremani 6y agoThe great Stalin himself was Nationalist in spite of the whole world communism spiel. When shit hits the fan, 'national identity' where people coalesce. Damn it, right in front of our fucking eyes, CCP is doing this shit with their wolf warrior diplomacy.
- klmadfejno 6y agoNationalism vs. Patriotism https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction
- rayiner 6y agoA healthy nationalism is something countries should cultivate, in particular to unify disparate minority groups with the majority. A nationalism where a Hindu majority are stripping a Muslim minority of citizenship is probably not the good kind of nationalism.
- throwawaysea 6y agoThat's not what is actually happening, and is a very common incorrect characterization by progressive/Western groups/others. India's Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA) grants refugee status and paths to citizenship for refugees from some of the surrounding countries, but only if they belong to certain persecuted groups. If you're a Muslim from a Muslim-majority country, then almost always you are not a refugee escaping persecution. In fact Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan all have Islam as their official state religion. So why would you be given the same refugee status and path to citizenship in India? You have to also keep in mind, when you're asking for nationalism to take the form of unification, to Hindus in India that sounds like asking victims to accommodate their oppressors, given hundreds of years of invasions and brutal occupation of India by Islamic powers and then Western colonial powers. The push from Western actors like America to push for a secular India is equivalent to saying "indigenous people in America need to make way for the occupiers that perpetrated their genocide".
- rdedev 6y agoIf you are an LGBTQ muslim in one of those muslim majority countries you listed above then you will certainly be persecuted. A single factor should not be used to determine the refugee status of a person
- john_max_1 6y agoSo, one criteria is bad just because others weren't considered? FWIW, Muslim hijras are not treated badly in these Muslim countries.
- naruvimama 6y agoOk, is it possible to be an LGBTQ muslim? Meaning you believe gay people need to be stoned to death and still be gay? Or is it the other way round. Even in this case the comparison is unfair considering that Hindu children can be killed or kidnapped and married to an old muslim man just because they are non-muslim.
- sgpl 6y agoIn this instance it concerns me because this form of 'nationalism' is a net negative for India and its future generations. It's masquerading as national pride but it's an attack on the secularity of the country, an attack on minorities (religious, lgbtq+ folks, etc), an attack on free speech and an attack on political freedom/opposition. India is not a monolith but a diverse country with a rich history and trying to force an entire country to 'fit in' to this narrative of 'nationalism' does more harm than good for society moving forward IMO. As for your second question, I don't know enough to give a definitive answer on whether nationalism is always or almost always negative but in this case I feel it is.
- naruvimama 6y agoIndia's diversity is guaranteed only because of Hindus. Communists, Christians & Islam has cultural cleansing as their core instrument. As simple scan of the world will let you clearly classify nations as catholic, protestant, sunni or shia. Projecting problems of western ideologies into false equivalences in Eastern thought does no one any good. Laws against LGBTQ was imposed by the British and it was removed by the current BJP government after 70 years of independence because the BJP does not give in to fundamentalist Christian/Islamic voices.
- higerordermap 6y agoI am a Hindu and definitely against the expansionist philosophies of these religions. But isn't the mainstream nationalist narrative too pushing the same Hindutva-Hindi homogeneous propaganda? And diversity is not only about religion either.
- braindead_in 6y agoHindutva, as laid out by Savarkar, embraced the diversity and was against any kind of homogenisation. BJP support Hindu as a second language or link language; it does not want to replace any language. Hindu Nationalism in principle wants to preserve the cultural identity of the Hindus which itself is very diverse and therefore supports diversity.
- higerordermap 6y agoNot him. * People start to believe propaganda which they want to believe - spread of nationalistic feelings helps this. People value these feelings over science. Boomers were reading whatsapp forwards and thinking "Ayurvedic" honey and ginger will cure COVID19 during the pandemic. You might be labelled anti national for saying Ayurveda is pseudoscience and not reliable. The mainstream nationalist narrative is so anti-science, and further, this propaganda is being used to build a cult of personality around Modi. * Because the ruling party can portray themselves as patriotic and nationalist, and get the media skewed towards perpetuating that viewpoint, people ignore the economic and policy failures of the government. Currently Petrol/Diesel prices are rising in India but most of the India is silent about it. If it was during last govt, there sure would be riots and what not. I am neutral regarding Indian politics. The opposition party (Indian National Congress) is fucked up due to nepotism and minority appeasement tactics too. But nationalism is a valid concern.
- neilsense 6y agoIt is if your entire world view is shaped by American politics