7 ms·

I grew up in India - nationalism is definitely a growing concern for the country IMO, more so than can be expressed online by articles such as this. And nationa

• 99_00 6y ago
  Why does 'nationalism' concern you. Is 'nationalism' always or almost always negative?
  • lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Nationalism is always negative to me because I define it as blind allegiance to a tribe who you don't hold accountable.
    • sremani 6y ago
      First world luxury - but the 2020s will teach a lesson about primacy of Nation-State. Watch the Germans.
      • firstSpeaker 6y ago
        What do you mean? You just throw a sentence without adding any substance here.
        • naruvimama 6y ago
          That is actually quite brilliant. 1. The refugee crisis that Germany brought in not only on itself but on the rest of the EU. 2. The same Germany has recently spearheaded a trade deal with the devil. Germany used nationalism for the wrong reasons (short term gain and long term pain)
      • the_only_law 6y ago
        Yeah I think we’ve already seen enough German nationalism last century.
    • indy 6y ago
      unfortunately "blind allegiance to a tribe who you don't hold accountable" applies to almost everyone who regularly engages with social media.
      • ziftface 6y ago
        Maybe so, but it becomes more serious when it's about policy. Not liking someone or leaving a snarky comment on twitter isn't the same as stripping people of citizenship or having state-sanctioned violence against a certain ethnic group.
        • BitwiseFool 6y ago
          I'm increasingly worried about the decentralized mob-like "consequences" for problematic speech. Sure, it's not the government taking away tour citizenship or committing violence against you, but it's easy for your life to be destroyed by a single tweet or Facebook post. If tensions are especially high, you could have your home or business vandalized or burned down. Social media can whip people into a frenzy and create a tyranny worse than what the government can do because there is virtually no accountability. The court of public opinion doesn't let you appeal your sentence.
    • 99_00 6y ago
      Is your personal definition the common one?
      • lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I don't know. Merriam Webster has this: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism > loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
    • john_max_1 6y ago
      It is a privilege to say so, My wife's Christian family suffered a lot during Islamist-led civil war.
  • lordleft 6y ago
    'nationalism' is typically distinguished from patriotism; the latter is a love of country -- the former is the conviction that one's country is better than other countries, on the basis of a rank tribalism.
    • 99_00 6y ago
      From wikipedia: Nationalism is an idea and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people),[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5] and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][8][page needed] Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
    • sremani 6y ago
      In the mother of multicultural societies - Nationalism is the fine thread that holds the thing together. India without Indian-Nationalism is warring states inviting new colonial powers for piece of action. This has been predicament of India since Alexander the Great. Strong borders externally and shallow border internally with rivers flowing in different directions created disparate cultures and population centers. India without Indian Nationalism is Syria on Steroids.. You do not want to go there.
      • sgift 6y ago
        Funny, there is a state in Europe which had exactly the same position: We are all individual states, we fight with each other, we are weak, we should be together under strong nationalism, so we aren't victims of others anymore and so on. That country was Germany, which unified in 1871. Two world wars later and we've decided that maybe Nationalism isn't such a great thing. But you do you. Have fun.
  • senthil_rajasek 6y ago
    I found this segment on Amanpour & Co. helpful in understanding nationalism and how it's used by fascists. https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-company/video/how-fascism-works-a-warning-for-the-u-s/ https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-company/video/how-fasc... My take away was fascists gain compliance by nationalism above anything including basic human rights.
    • sremani 6y ago
      The great Stalin himself was Nationalist in spite of the whole world communism spiel. When shit hits the fan, 'national identity' where people coalesce. Damn it, right in front of our fucking eyes, CCP is doing this shit with their wolf warrior diplomacy.
  • klmadfejno 6y ago
    Nationalism vs. Patriotism https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction
  • rayiner 6y ago
    A healthy nationalism is something countries should cultivate, in particular to unify disparate minority groups with the majority. A nationalism where a Hindu majority are stripping a Muslim minority of citizenship is probably not the good kind of nationalism.
    • throwawaysea 6y ago
      That's not what is actually happening, and is a very common incorrect characterization by progressive/Western groups/others. India's Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA) grants refugee status and paths to citizenship for refugees from some of the surrounding countries, but only if they belong to certain persecuted groups. If you're a Muslim from a Muslim-majority country, then almost always you are not a refugee escaping persecution. In fact Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan all have Islam as their official state religion. So why would you be given the same refugee status and path to citizenship in India? You have to also keep in mind, when you're asking for nationalism to take the form of unification, to Hindus in India that sounds like asking victims to accommodate their oppressors, given hundreds of years of invasions and brutal occupation of India by Islamic powers and then Western colonial powers. The push from Western actors like America to push for a secular India is equivalent to saying "indigenous people in America need to make way for the occupiers that perpetrated their genocide".
      • rdedev 6y ago
        If you are an LGBTQ muslim in one of those muslim majority countries you listed above then you will certainly be persecuted. A single factor should not be used to determine the refugee status of a person
        • john_max_1 6y ago
          So, one criteria is bad just because others weren't considered? FWIW, Muslim hijras are not treated badly in these Muslim countries.
        • naruvimama 6y ago
          Ok, is it possible to be an LGBTQ muslim? Meaning you believe gay people need to be stoned to death and still be gay? Or is it the other way round. Even in this case the comparison is unfair considering that Hindu children can be killed or kidnapped and married to an old muslim man just because they are non-muslim.
  • sgpl 6y ago
    In this instance it concerns me because this form of 'nationalism' is a net negative for India and its future generations. It's masquerading as national pride but it's an attack on the secularity of the country, an attack on minorities (religious, lgbtq+ folks, etc), an attack on free speech and an attack on political freedom/opposition. India is not a monolith but a diverse country with a rich history and trying to force an entire country to 'fit in' to this narrative of 'nationalism' does more harm than good for society moving forward IMO. As for your second question, I don't know enough to give a definitive answer on whether nationalism is always or almost always negative but in this case I feel it is.
    • naruvimama 6y ago
      India's diversity is guaranteed only because of Hindus. Communists, Christians & Islam has cultural cleansing as their core instrument. As simple scan of the world will let you clearly classify nations as catholic, protestant, sunni or shia. Projecting problems of western ideologies into false equivalences in Eastern thought does no one any good. Laws against LGBTQ was imposed by the British and it was removed by the current BJP government after 70 years of independence because the BJP does not give in to fundamentalist Christian/Islamic voices.
      • higerordermap 6y ago
        I am a Hindu and definitely against the expansionist philosophies of these religions. But isn't the mainstream nationalist narrative too pushing the same Hindutva-Hindi homogeneous propaganda? And diversity is not only about religion either.
        • braindead_in 6y ago
          Hindutva, as laid out by Savarkar, embraced the diversity and was against any kind of homogenisation. BJP support Hindu as a second language or link language; it does not want to replace any language. Hindu Nationalism in principle wants to preserve the cultural identity of the Hindus which itself is very diverse and therefore supports diversity.
  • higerordermap 6y ago
    Not him. * People start to believe propaganda which they want to believe - spread of nationalistic feelings helps this. People value these feelings over science. Boomers were reading whatsapp forwards and thinking "Ayurvedic" honey and ginger will cure COVID19 during the pandemic. You might be labelled anti national for saying Ayurveda is pseudoscience and not reliable. The mainstream nationalist narrative is so anti-science, and further, this propaganda is being used to build a cult of personality around Modi. * Because the ruling party can portray themselves as patriotic and nationalist, and get the media skewed towards perpetuating that viewpoint, people ignore the economic and policy failures of the government. Currently Petrol/Diesel prices are rising in India but most of the India is silent about it. If it was during last govt, there sure would be riots and what not. I am neutral regarding Indian politics. The opposition party (Indian National Congress) is fucked up due to nepotism and minority appeasement tactics too. But nationalism is a valid concern.
  • neilsense 6y ago
    It is if your entire world view is shaped by American politics
• cowmoo728 6y ago
  How many of them use the NaMo (narendra modi) app? That's been very successful at creating a pro-Modi fake news machine. https://qz.com/india/1534754/modis-namo-app-spreads-pro-bjp-fake-news-before-indian-elections/ https://qz.com/india/1534754/modis-namo-app-spreads-pro-bjp-... iirc BJP (Modi's political party) was also a big client of Cambridge Analytica and various whatsapp based troll farms. I remember rumors from around the time of the last American election that some of Modi's tech advisors were helping the Trump campaign on how to use whatsapp groups, but I'm not sure if that's true. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/us-presidential-elections/fake-news-spread-on-whatsapp-to-indian-americans-plays-stealth-role-in-us-election/articleshow/78895597.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/us-presidential... It seems that connecting a billion more people to the internet in the past few years has accelerated the rise of ultra-nationalism via memes and fake news.
• caseyross 6y ago
  I found this tidbit from the interview interesting: > I’m an independent person; I’m apolitical. We want to unify India. I've started noticing more in the world how sometimes, people promote their stances as "apolitical", "independent", or somehow outside of politics. This has the powerful effect of implying that those stances are natural and un-opposable.
  • webmobdev 6y ago
    This is a mass migration of political thoughts, and its supporters, to another platform (especially of those in power currently) - you can bet they thoroughly vetted the platform owners before opting for it. To be blunt, the platform owner is one of "them".
  • wahern 6y ago
    It's a timeless, perhaps even instinctive, rhetorical formula. If you want to advocate some policy or cause you first establish your independence to imply non-biased consideration. If you want to criticize some policy or group you first establish that you were previously an advocate of that policy or group, or currently still are part of that group, implying that the criticism is so undeniable that even someone predisposed to bias and self-interest can't reject it. We all do this. For example, "I actually like Rust and use it daily, BUT...."
• throwawaysea 6y ago
  So instead of a siloed platform, you would advocate for a nation to allow tech employees in San Francisco to influence other countries' elections, censor their politicians, control their societies' discourse, decide what's allowed and disallowed, and so on? That seems like a call for external rule and a threat to national sovereignty. There are real consequences to such acquiescence. Not everyone agrees with American progressive worldviews and Twitter obviously enacts one-sided censorship based on those views. As an example of the kind of topic that would be treated differently in Western social media versus other platforms, consider that India has historically treated transgendered people as a third gender (by my understanding). This feels more logical to me than trying to forcefully redefine existing genders or creating an infinite proliferation of genders, but under Twitter or Facebook's rule, any such opinions or debate would be deleted and users sharing such views would be banned. So why should recent rapid changes in Western culture take precedence over long-lasting local culture in this instance? I'm not claiming that either is right or wrong, but simply that the increasing degree of censorship and control enacted by American tech companies reflects the views and desires of a narrow minority globally - and therefore they shouldn't be given the power that they have. In the case of the farmers protests, I think there's an "other side of this issue" for the very problems you are alluding to. Factual errors, widespread misleading claims, meme-ification, and trolling are common tools of those who are on the side of the Punjab farmers and those on the other side. To call out only one side feels misleading to me.
  • sremani 6y ago
    Pretty much that. Most of HN is for Cultural Colonialism, but you know when it is dressed and wrapped in human rights and other bogus shit while buying Nikes and Apples made by real slave labor. Peak virtue signaling.
• naruvimama 6y ago
  Nationalism can mean different things to different people and countries. It can be bad in former colonial powers and good in former colonies. And the BJP today under Modi is considered a "Hindu nationalist" after 70 years of Independence. This is in sharp contrast to Pakistan which started killing millions of Hindus & Sikhs, and has more or less completely wiped out their non-muslim population. This ethnic cleansing started even before they were created as a country. So perhaps the "Hindus" should have a say in the only country meant for them. Pardon me for saying this but Christian and Islamic values have been enforced on much of the world, which includes India much of whose laws and education are Christian/Leftist leaning. As for those who are not aware, "Hindu" (of India) is the catch all phrase for anyone who did not fit into the other major faiths. And the "Hindus" themselves mostly consider anyone who are not openly inimical to their pluralistic practices as being in the fold.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• amriksohata 6y ago
  https://www.facebook.com/FISIUK75/videos/1136660920139534/ https://www.facebook.com/FISIUK75/videos/1136660920139534/