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I'm not questioning the flattening the curve part. I'm saying the 2 weeks part was gaslighting. What they should have said is "one year or greater to flatten t

I'm not questioning the flattening the curve part. I'm saying the 2 weeks part was gaslighting. What they should have said is "one year or greater to flatten the curve." That would have been honest

blamestross 6y ago
What the parent comment is trying to say is that we did accomplish the goal of those two weeks. The curve was flattened. Your perspective is a result of not living in the universe were it was a lot worse. This isn't the best time line, but it is one of the better ones.
steve_adams_86 6y ago
I think the error here is perceiving errors from medical authorities as having emotional or manipulative motivations. First masks were unnecessary and hand washing was crucial. Now it’s essentially the reverse. It helps to wash hands of course but we realize it’s less of a vector. Then various governments said it’ll be over by summer. Then various governments said it’ll be a year. No one was attempting to gaslight; this was the culmination of millions of professionals doing their best to make sense of the situation, and occasionally, uncertain terms being communicated incorrectly. This is normal. The decision to perceive non-optimal performance in an incredibly complex situation as an attack on a population is yours, and you’re welcome to it. I simply don’t see the point.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > I think the error here is perceiving errors from medical authorities as having emotional or manipulative motivations. I think you might be forgetting medical authorities approving certain protests as being more important than containing covid. Dont want to start was flamewar here but just pointing out a flaw in your response. That was factually a 'emotional or manipulative motivation', right or wrong. > This is normal. Obviously not.
  - camgunz 6y ago
    > I think you might be forgetting medical authorities approving certain protests as being more important than containing covid. Can you provide some examples? I googled around and found this [1] which seems like a reasonable summary of the Covid-related consequences of the George Floyd protests. The "reasons it seems like it was OK" doesn't seem too divergent from what many medical professionals are saying (don't gather indoors, wear masks, wash hands). I'd also like to point out that institutional racism and police brutality are public health crises with uncountable effects on the health of Black Americans. Further, when you consider that Covid-19 has had far worse effects on communities of color, and that many essential workers are people of color, the protests don't seem that unrelated. Edit, found some: - https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/political-and-health-leaders-embrace-of-floyd-protests-fuels-debate-over-coronavirus-restrictions/2020/06/11/9c60bca6-a761-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/political-and-health-l... - https://abcnews.go.com/Health/people-protest-george-floyds-death-safely/story?id=71070269 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/people-protest-george-floyds-d... - https://time.com/5848212/doctors-supporting-protests/ https://time.com/5848212/doctors-supporting-protests/ - https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-lette... Here are some quotes: > “Protesting against systemic injustice that is contributing directly to this pandemic is essential,” Dhillon said. “The right to live, the right to breathe, the right to walk down the street without police coming at you for no reason . . . that’s different than me wanting to go to my place of worship on the weekend, me wanting to take my kid on a roller coaster, me wanting to go to brunch with my friends.” > "Staying indoors all the time in a pandemic is equivalent to an abstinence-only policy," > For her part, Patel says the core tenants of harm reduction fit into public health doctors’ broader obligation to protect human rights while also helping people stay safe. "You’re describing a broader human rights-based approach to policy and medicine," Patel said. "These are the tenants of human rights." > "There’s broad recognition that racism is one of the top public health issues of our time," Beletsky said. > "Racism is a public health problem," the health department tweeted Monday. "In New York City, Black and Brown communities face the disproportionate impact, grief and loss from the COVID-19 pandemic on top of the trauma of state-sanctioned violence." > “If people were to understand that racism, and all of the social and political and economic inequalities that racism creates, ultimately harms people’s health,” Boyd says, they would see that “protest is a profound public health intervention, because it allows us to finally address and end forms of inequality.” > "We created the letter in response to emerging narratives that seemed to malign demonstrations as risky for the public health because of Covid-19," according to the letter writers, many of whom are part of the University of Washington's Division of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. "Instead, we wanted to present a narrative that prioritizes opposition to racism as vital to the public health, including the epidemic response. We believe that the way forward is not to suppress protests in the name of public health but to respond to protesters demands in the name of public health, thereby addressing multiple public health crises." [1]: https://www.vox.com/2020/6/26/21300636/coronavirus-pandemic-black-lives-matter-protests https://www.vox.com/2020/6/26/21300636/coronavirus-pandemic-...
- speeder 6y ago
  Problem is assuming it was "errors" What I saw: 1. Lots of outright lies, for example Chinese people saying the truth getting arrested, WHO toeing the CCP line (for example claiming there was no human-human transmission) when it was obviously a lie already, etc... 2. Lots of governments around the world using the lies for their own gains at expense of population, for example in Brazil the media was quick to paint the president as evil, to allow a inconstitutional power grab by governors and mayors (mind you, I am not saying quarantine is bad, I am saying it was done in a extremely illegal manner, and often for corrupt reasons, now a ton of the people involved are going to jail after quickly stuffing all money they could on their own pockets). 3. Lots of politicians lying and trying to pin the blame on scientists, see Cuomo lying about deaths on nursing homes to avoid Trump criticizing him. 4. Tons of corruption in procuring vaccines, masks, remote working tools, catering, etc... some examples are various politicians from multiple countries getting caught getting bribes from chinese manufacturer, politicians forcing lockdowns but maintaining their own business open, that crazy case in hollywood where open air restaurants were shut down but there was even a catering company serving movie production crew in a makeshift open air restaurant right in front of a local restaurant that was forced to shut down... 5. Lockdowns used for supression (see Iran executing the guy that asked why he had to lockdown but religious people didn't...) the list goes and goes and goes on.
  - steve_adams_86 6y ago
    I suppose an important thing I meant to express here, and which is useful to consider in response to you, is that we shouldn't generalize. Were some authorities gas lighting? Maybe. Were all? Certainly not. We should focus on and isolate the bad actors who are doing this, not generalize.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Some ruling parties in Europe were aware early last autumn that restrictions would last all the way to the spring at least (and regardless of case numbers and hospitalization), but they never stated that overtly. They preferred to claim that measures were just a short-term, temporary thing, and then when those measures were set to expire, they were just renewed again on ostensibly a short-term basis. This was done because those ruling parties knew that there was massive opposition to long-term lockdowns, and being open and honest with the public could lead to their defeat in the next elections.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
notatoad 6y ago
Maybe health officials were more misleading where you are, but from everything i saw the "2 weeks" messaging wasn't intended to say that everything would be solved in two weeks of lockdown, it was that after two weeks we would begin to see if a lockdown was effective or not. and it never was effective because our lockdowns are more of a polite suggestion to please not lick strangers than an actual lockdown.
TameAntelope 6y ago
It’s not lying if we didn’t understand reality at the time. Hindsight is powerful, but I don't think in March anyone seriously thought this’d go through the year.
watwut 6y ago
Even if it would be lying, not every lying is gaslighting. Gaslighting is very specific abuse tactic.

I'm not questioning the flattening the curve part. I'm saying the 2 weeks part was gaslighting. What they should have said is "one year or greater to flatten the curve." That would have been honest

blamestross 6y ago

What the parent comment is trying to say is that we did accomplish the goal of those two weeks. The curve was flattened. Your perspective is a result of not living in the universe were it was a lot worse. This isn't the best time line, but it is one of the better ones.

steve_adams_86 6y ago

I think the error here is perceiving errors from medical authorities as having emotional or manipulative motivations. First masks were unnecessary and hand washing was crucial. Now it’s essentially the reverse. It helps to wash hands of course but we realize it’s less of a vector. Then various governments said it’ll be over by summer. Then various governments said it’ll be a year. No one was attempting to gaslight; this was the culmination of millions of professionals doing their best to make sense of the situation, and occasionally, uncertain terms being communicated incorrectly. This is normal. The decision to perceive non-optimal performance in an incredibly complex situation as an attack on a population is yours, and you’re welcome to it. I simply don’t see the point.

dominotw 6y ago
> I think the error here is perceiving errors from medical authorities as having emotional or manipulative motivations. I think you might be forgetting medical authorities approving certain protests as being more important than containing covid. Dont want to start was flamewar here but just pointing out a flaw in your response. That was factually a 'emotional or manipulative motivation', right or wrong. > This is normal. Obviously not.
- camgunz 6y ago
  > I think you might be forgetting medical authorities approving certain protests as being more important than containing covid. Can you provide some examples? I googled around and found this [1] which seems like a reasonable summary of the Covid-related consequences of the George Floyd protests. The "reasons it seems like it was OK" doesn't seem too divergent from what many medical professionals are saying (don't gather indoors, wear masks, wash hands). I'd also like to point out that institutional racism and police brutality are public health crises with uncountable effects on the health of Black Americans. Further, when you consider that Covid-19 has had far worse effects on communities of color, and that many essential workers are people of color, the protests don't seem that unrelated. Edit, found some: - https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/political-and-health-leaders-embrace-of-floyd-protests-fuels-debate-over-coronavirus-restrictions/2020/06/11/9c60bca6-a761-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/political-and-health-l... - https://abcnews.go.com/Health/people-protest-george-floyds-death-safely/story?id=71070269 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/people-protest-george-floyds-d... - https://time.com/5848212/doctors-supporting-protests/ https://time.com/5848212/doctors-supporting-protests/ - https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-lette... Here are some quotes: > “Protesting against systemic injustice that is contributing directly to this pandemic is essential,” Dhillon said. “The right to live, the right to breathe, the right to walk down the street without police coming at you for no reason . . . that’s different than me wanting to go to my place of worship on the weekend, me wanting to take my kid on a roller coaster, me wanting to go to brunch with my friends.” > "Staying indoors all the time in a pandemic is equivalent to an abstinence-only policy," > For her part, Patel says the core tenants of harm reduction fit into public health doctors’ broader obligation to protect human rights while also helping people stay safe. "You’re describing a broader human rights-based approach to policy and medicine," Patel said. "These are the tenants of human rights." > "There’s broad recognition that racism is one of the top public health issues of our time," Beletsky said. > "Racism is a public health problem," the health department tweeted Monday. "In New York City, Black and Brown communities face the disproportionate impact, grief and loss from the COVID-19 pandemic on top of the trauma of state-sanctioned violence." > “If people were to understand that racism, and all of the social and political and economic inequalities that racism creates, ultimately harms people’s health,” Boyd says, they would see that “protest is a profound public health intervention, because it allows us to finally address and end forms of inequality.” > "We created the letter in response to emerging narratives that seemed to malign demonstrations as risky for the public health because of Covid-19," according to the letter writers, many of whom are part of the University of Washington's Division of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. "Instead, we wanted to present a narrative that prioritizes opposition to racism as vital to the public health, including the epidemic response. We believe that the way forward is not to suppress protests in the name of public health but to respond to protesters demands in the name of public health, thereby addressing multiple public health crises." [1]: https://www.vox.com/2020/6/26/21300636/coronavirus-pandemic-black-lives-matter-protests https://www.vox.com/2020/6/26/21300636/coronavirus-pandemic-...
speeder 6y ago
Problem is assuming it was "errors" What I saw: 1. Lots of outright lies, for example Chinese people saying the truth getting arrested, WHO toeing the CCP line (for example claiming there was no human-human transmission) when it was obviously a lie already, etc... 2. Lots of governments around the world using the lies for their own gains at expense of population, for example in Brazil the media was quick to paint the president as evil, to allow a inconstitutional power grab by governors and mayors (mind you, I am not saying quarantine is bad, I am saying it was done in a extremely illegal manner, and often for corrupt reasons, now a ton of the people involved are going to jail after quickly stuffing all money they could on their own pockets). 3. Lots of politicians lying and trying to pin the blame on scientists, see Cuomo lying about deaths on nursing homes to avoid Trump criticizing him. 4. Tons of corruption in procuring vaccines, masks, remote working tools, catering, etc... some examples are various politicians from multiple countries getting caught getting bribes from chinese manufacturer, politicians forcing lockdowns but maintaining their own business open, that crazy case in hollywood where open air restaurants were shut down but there was even a catering company serving movie production crew in a makeshift open air restaurant right in front of a local restaurant that was forced to shut down... 5. Lockdowns used for supression (see Iran executing the guy that asked why he had to lockdown but religious people didn't...) the list goes and goes and goes on.
- steve_adams_86 6y ago
  I suppose an important thing I meant to express here, and which is useful to consider in response to you, is that we shouldn't generalize. Were some authorities gas lighting? Maybe. Were all? Certainly not. We should focus on and isolate the bad actors who are doing this, not generalize.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Some ruling parties in Europe were aware early last autumn that restrictions would last all the way to the spring at least (and regardless of case numbers and hospitalization), but they never stated that overtly. They preferred to claim that measures were just a short-term, temporary thing, and then when those measures were set to expire, they were just renewed again on ostensibly a short-term basis. This was done because those ruling parties knew that there was massive opposition to long-term lockdowns, and being open and honest with the public could lead to their defeat in the next elections.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

notatoad 6y ago

Maybe health officials were more misleading where you are, but from everything i saw the "2 weeks" messaging wasn't intended to say that everything would be solved in two weeks of lockdown, it was that after two weeks we would begin to see if a lockdown was effective or not. and it never was effective because our lockdowns are more of a polite suggestion to please not lick strangers than an actual lockdown.

TameAntelope 6y ago

It’s not lying if we didn’t understand reality at the time. Hindsight is powerful, but I don't think in March anyone seriously thought this’d go through the year.

watwut 6y ago

Even if it would be lying, not every lying is gaslighting. Gaslighting is very specific abuse tactic.