6 ms·

I've worked in union shops as well while not being in the union. Union overtime is highly coveted because it's a 2x-3x bonus that a lot of my union friends used

by yardie 6y ago

I've worked in union shops as well while not being in the union. Union overtime is highly coveted because it's a 2x-3x bonus that a lot of my union friends used towards a downpayment, kids' college tuition, retiring earlier, or starting a business. No one had to step up because everyone was stepping up. And the shop chief usually decided who got that overtime (i.e. young worker trying to buy a house might get higher priority over a senior.) Also, shops had extremely good work life balance. You were at the timeclock 4:59 on the dot. No one is asking you to stay late, or be on call uncompensated. Your time was your time from 5pm-8am. By their virtue of being always online, tech companies intrude into that worklife balance and it's not unreasonable to ask for some of it back.

andrew_ 6y ago
I disagree only in that I worked salaried positions in the trades for some time. While most trades are hourly, there does exist a salaried contingent. The thinking that extra asks from your employer is an intrusion into your life is inherently, entitlement. Solid companies and management will repay that extra effort, in one form or another.
- dvtrn 6y ago
  Well by your definition then I’ve come to makepeace with my entitlement, then, if this is truly entitlement to not want a work life that thinks it can intrude on my non-work life without me saying something about it and trying to minimize the blast radius. Yes, I’m entitled. I’m entitled to being defined by more than just how I make money. Yep. 100% Glad we could have this talk. Feels good to finally get that out.
  - shrimp_emoji 6y ago
    "Human rights, democracies, and whatever... It's all ~~nonsense~~ entitlement..." (https://pics.me.me/thumb_translated-by-memritv-org-human-rights-democracies-and-whateve-its-all-61059689.png https://pics.me.me/thumb_translated-by-memritv-org-human-rig...)
- yardie 6y ago
  > The thinking that extra asks from your employer is an intrusion into your life is inherently, entitlement. Let's get this straight an entitlement is something that is owed. If I buy health insurance and go to the hospital I am entitled to use it. If I pay for unemployment in my salary and become unemployed I am entitled to it. > in one form or another. Banking and housing unfortunately does not work this way. I can only present a paystub or W4 when applying for a loan or renting a flat, any other form of compensation is disregarded. My dedication to the job should be remitted through my salary, a employee pizza/ice cream party doesn't mean a thing to me.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
Every tech company I’ve worked at expected me to bring my laptop home every night “just in case we need you to jump in” FANG companies also typically pay your cellphone bill, again because they expect to be able to page and call you at any time.
- yardie 6y ago
  I do the same but I don't jump in right away. We have runbooks and escalation routines. If it gets to the point that I need to "jump in" I take that time back in the upcoming days and weeks. As a personal favour I will fire off a private message to whichever colleague is on call if I see they are floundering. Because I'm a good guy and believe the help I give today may be requited down the line.
asidiali 6y ago
This - the mental overhead of a software job is not something that is easily turned off during non work hours - especially with a pushy employer or coworkers with no work life balance themselves. You can’t cut steel at home after dinner no matter how hard you try if you don’t have the tools. Conversely, I’m sure you have a computer, can you just login to GitHub for two seconds to review this PR I submitted at 9pm...
- kryogen1c 6y ago
  > the mental overheard of a software job is not something that is easily turned off during non work hours this is very ignorant. the ability to leave work at work is a personality trait. the job, or type of job, has little to do with it. software development is not some exceptionally difficult thing that tortures and haunts developers.
  - jolux 6y ago
    > software development is not some exceptionally difficult thing that tortures and haunts developers. There's definitely a difference between white collar/knowledge work and manual labor or highly people-focused work, though. I've worked retail and food service before and the mental overhead is absolutely different. It took me a long time (years) to learn how to turn off my brain at 5pm and stop programming when I got my first tech job. Not something I had a problem with in more manual industries: when you're not at the workplace, you can't work, even if you wanted to.
    - asidiali 6y ago
      Agreed! Is it black and white? No of course not. You can and need to learn how to properly transition between work and home. It takes time. Totally agree with you. It’s nearly impossible to do when your employer is not on that same page with you, or even worse is instead fighting against it.
  - asidiali 6y ago
    > the ability to leave work at work is a personality trait. the job, or type of job, has little to do with it. This is very ignorant. There are many outside factors that go into if an employee needs to focus on work after hours, such as accessibility to the working environment, cultural practices at the company, etc. Who said anything about haunting? If my manager hits me up at 11pm asking for something, sure I can ignore him or her. Then I come in the next day, they already did the thing they asked for themselves because [insert business reason], and says “never mind”. Next time it happens, they go to the other dev who is happy to do it at 11pm. Guess who gets the promotion?
mywacaday 6y ago
It needs to be give and take on both sides, I went back to finish a presentation deck last night until 1am but I'll finish early in Friday or take time when it suits me and I don't have to tell my manager. One of the my direct reports took some time this morning to go do some person errands, didn't use vacation as he steps up when needed. He sent me a courtesy message to say he would be out for a few hours but it wasn't for approval. He gives when he needs to and he takes when he needs to and I trust him to manage that. But trust is needed and I've seen plenty of managers abuse people's goodwill, I can see why unions formalize that in a way.

by yardie 6y ago

andrew_ 6y ago

I disagree only in that I worked salaried positions in the trades for some time. While most trades are hourly, there does exist a salaried contingent. The thinking that extra asks from your employer is an intrusion into your life is inherently, entitlement. Solid companies and management will repay that extra effort, in one form or another.

dvtrn 6y ago
Well by your definition then I’ve come to makepeace with my entitlement, then, if this is truly entitlement to not want a work life that thinks it can intrude on my non-work life without me saying something about it and trying to minimize the blast radius. Yes, I’m entitled. I’m entitled to being defined by more than just how I make money. Yep. 100% Glad we could have this talk. Feels good to finally get that out.
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago
  "Human rights, democracies, and whatever... It's all ~~nonsense~~ entitlement..." (https://pics.me.me/thumb_translated-by-memritv-org-human-rights-democracies-and-whateve-its-all-61059689.png https://pics.me.me/thumb_translated-by-memritv-org-human-rig...)
yardie 6y ago
> The thinking that extra asks from your employer is an intrusion into your life is inherently, entitlement. Let's get this straight an entitlement is something that is owed. If I buy health insurance and go to the hospital I am entitled to use it. If I pay for unemployment in my salary and become unemployed I am entitled to it. > in one form or another. Banking and housing unfortunately does not work this way. I can only present a paystub or W4 when applying for a loan or renting a flat, any other form of compensation is disregarded. My dedication to the job should be remitted through my salary, a employee pizza/ice cream party doesn't mean a thing to me.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

Every tech company I’ve worked at expected me to bring my laptop home every night “just in case we need you to jump in” FANG companies also typically pay your cellphone bill, again because they expect to be able to page and call you at any time.

yardie 6y ago
I do the same but I don't jump in right away. We have runbooks and escalation routines. If it gets to the point that I need to "jump in" I take that time back in the upcoming days and weeks. As a personal favour I will fire off a private message to whichever colleague is on call if I see they are floundering. Because I'm a good guy and believe the help I give today may be requited down the line.

asidiali 6y ago

This - the mental overhead of a software job is not something that is easily turned off during non work hours - especially with a pushy employer or coworkers with no work life balance themselves. You can’t cut steel at home after dinner no matter how hard you try if you don’t have the tools. Conversely, I’m sure you have a computer, can you just login to GitHub for two seconds to review this PR I submitted at 9pm...

kryogen1c 6y ago
> the mental overheard of a software job is not something that is easily turned off during non work hours this is very ignorant. the ability to leave work at work is a personality trait. the job, or type of job, has little to do with it. software development is not some exceptionally difficult thing that tortures and haunts developers.
- jolux 6y ago
  > software development is not some exceptionally difficult thing that tortures and haunts developers. There's definitely a difference between white collar/knowledge work and manual labor or highly people-focused work, though. I've worked retail and food service before and the mental overhead is absolutely different. It took me a long time (years) to learn how to turn off my brain at 5pm and stop programming when I got my first tech job. Not something I had a problem with in more manual industries: when you're not at the workplace, you can't work, even if you wanted to.
  - asidiali 6y ago
    Agreed! Is it black and white? No of course not. You can and need to learn how to properly transition between work and home. It takes time. Totally agree with you. It’s nearly impossible to do when your employer is not on that same page with you, or even worse is instead fighting against it.
- asidiali 6y ago
  > the ability to leave work at work is a personality trait. the job, or type of job, has little to do with it. This is very ignorant. There are many outside factors that go into if an employee needs to focus on work after hours, such as accessibility to the working environment, cultural practices at the company, etc. Who said anything about haunting? If my manager hits me up at 11pm asking for something, sure I can ignore him or her. Then I come in the next day, they already did the thing they asked for themselves because [insert business reason], and says “never mind”. Next time it happens, they go to the other dev who is happy to do it at 11pm. Guess who gets the promotion?

mywacaday 6y ago

It needs to be give and take on both sides, I went back to finish a presentation deck last night until 1am but I'll finish early in Friday or take time when it suits me and I don't have to tell my manager. One of the my direct reports took some time this morning to go do some person errands, didn't use vacation as he steps up when needed. He sent me a courtesy message to say he would be out for a few hours but it wasn't for approval. He gives when he needs to and he takes when he needs to and I trust him to manage that. But trust is needed and I've seen plenty of managers abuse people's goodwill, I can see why unions formalize that in a way.