7 ms·

All the overthinking on motivations here is entertaining :) Disclosure: I'm the Googler that got this funded. The process was roughly: - We have some extra bu

by dlor 6y ago

All the overthinking on motivations here is entertaining :) Disclosure: I'm the Googler that got this funded. The process was roughly: - We have some extra budget at the end of the year! What are some ways we can spend this to get results while giving back to OSS? - Hey PSF, do you have any ideas for what you could do with some funding? - Looks good to me! We're just getting started, but we're working on ways to make this all more sustainable, scalable, and less ad-hoc. If you have ideas here, please reach out! I'm dlorenc at google dot com, or join in the OpenSSF (openssf.org)! We discuss these topics and more in the Securing Critical Projects WG, info here: https://github.com/ossf/wg-securing-critical-projects/ https://github.com/ossf/wg-securing-critical-projects/

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 6y ago
Always critics to everything and Google has grown big enough to be fun to hate. There's plenty of things to criticize what happens at your organization these days -- but this isn't one of them. Congrats
vlag10 6y ago
You are at the wrong address. The PSF has nothing to do with Python core. The proper way is to hire devs with proven track record and let them work 100% on the project.
- dlor 6y ago
  I think that's what's happening here - the PSF will be hiring someone to work 100% on core CPython for a year.
oefrha 6y ago
Thank you. Google has been sponsoring PSF for at least a decade -- cleared mentioned in TFA -- without much fuss; now the sponsorship level is upgraded ($90k to $150k?) and all of a sudden there's an uproar about Google taking over, shutting down (???), adding telemetry (?????), blah blah. The conspiracy theorists suddenly come out of the woodwork, the driveby haters (who I doubt even has any interest in Python) predictably dish out a stream of low effort Google memes... What a tedious thread to read, which is unfortunately just one example of the not even recent quality down spiral in any thread related to any big corp, regardless of whether there's a shred of connection between the topic and what certain people are angry about. To be clear, I'm not another guy with no interest in Python just seizing the opportunity to complain. I care about Python deeply and have quite a few patches in core over the years. Edit: I probably got the sponsorship dollar amounts wrong. The point stands.
- typon 6y ago
  With how Google behaves in other areas do you really fault people for being skeptical?
  - tomrod 6y ago
    Were it MS I'd be concerned. At least in my circles Google isn't known for this type of outcome. Can you add some color/explanation/examples for why you feel skepticism is warranted?
    - gautamdivgi 6y ago
      Actually MS has been relatively hands-off on Postgres, GitHub, Xamarin, etc. Of course they want to integrate it closely with Azure & their toolset. But I don't see them compromising any functionality or making things specific to MS tools.
      - edgyquant 6y ago
        Does Microsoft have a stake in Postgres? I’m not aware of that if so (not that it would make me stop using it, anyway.)
        gautamdivgi 6y ago
        They acquired Citus Data a while back
        anarazel 6y ago
        Citus Data paid for one full-time Postgres developer for a while (me, before I left), and a few employees contributed things on and off. That didn't really provide Citus with a meaningful amount of control over the community, hence Microsoft didn't have that either after the acquisition. Since then Microsoft has hired a few Postgres contributors (Jeff Davis, Thomas Munro, me, David Rowley, Melanie Plageman) to work on Postgres itself. While larger than before, that's still not anything close to a controlling fraction of Postgres developers. Microsoft has - I guess I can't really provide anything more than just my word on it - been giving us a lot of latitude what we work on. FWIW.
Jyaif 6y ago
Suggestion: To avoid the bad publicity, never be the largest donator.
- dlor 6y ago
  Hah - probably accurate! Someone has to do it though, and I don't mind. One of my goals here is to normalize big companies giving back like this. Even with budget and supportive leadership, spending money on OSS is surprisingly difficult.
olau 6y ago
It would be kind of cool if you could fund this guy mentioned below: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/RDXLCH22T2EZDRCBM6ZYYIUTBWQVVVWH/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/... I understand if it's too specific. But it would still be neat to see if someone could get the ball rolling. I think it would give some good publicity too. :)
amelius 6y ago
I dunno but perhaps it was better to spend the money on human support staff. Or on means to become less dependent on advertising income. Or on open-sourcing those "shut-down by Google" projects. Or on improving the sandbox/permissions system of Android. But I suppose that the corporate culture dictates that you don't discuss most of these topics with management.
- throwaway19937 6y ago
  > I dunno but perhaps it was better to spend the money on human support staff. Or on means to become less dependent on advertising income. Or on open-sourcing those "shut-down by Google" projects. Or on improving the sandbox/permissions system of Android. I certainly have my complaints about Google but this post is way off base. Whether Google pursues any of these possibilities has nothing to do with this sponsorship; they would all be in separate budgets. It's also highly unlikely that the grandparent has any input on these topics - how much influence do you have over your employer's strategic decisions? It's absurd to chastise someone in a large organization for decisions they almost certainly had nothing to do with. > But I suppose that the corporate culture dictates that you don't discuss most of these topics with management. Questioning strategic decisions is rarely beneficial to your career in any organization. I have yet to see anyone promoted for doing so but can think of at least 5 firings related to this.
  - amelius 6y ago
    > Questioning strategic decisions is rarely beneficial to your career in any organization. So, you always make the more "convenient" decisions instead and pretend there aren't any problems? If this is the result of company culture then this is indeed not the individual's fault, but I sure hope I can at least comment on it?
    - throwaway19937 6y ago
      > So, you always make the more "convenient" decisions instead and pretend there aren't any problems? Denying a problem is senseless but you have to pick your battles. It's a waste of time and political capital to question some decisions. You have to pick the hill you want to die on. Strategic decisions are divided into at least the following categories: 1. Decisions and practices that are effectively written in stone. You probably aren't, for example, going to be able to move Google away from a monorepo. It can be difficult to identify this category from outside the organization. 2. Decisions that are open to influence by people in that part of the org chart. The Chrome developers, for example, probably have some influence on Google's involvement in WHATWG. Someone who works on ad quality probably doesn't. 3. Decisions that seems possible from outside the organization but the inside perspective is quite different. 4. Decisions that anyone can influence. Some of the successful Google protests fall into this category. 5. Decisions that only a director can influence because they don't listen to anyone below them in the org chart. Google is large enough that there are probably some directors like this. Google has been pursuing non-advertising sources of income for at least a decade; your other asks fall into at best category #2.
antman 6y ago
Thanks for the sponsorship! A nice next step would be to make a python a first class citizen on Android. After a series of freedoms in permission management have been revoked in the recent years Python has been effectively rendered useless on Android.
yannoninator 6y ago
> Disclosure: I'm the Googler that got this funded. > - We have some extra budget at the end of the year! What are some ways we can spend this to get results while giving back to OSS? > - Hey PSF, do you have any ideas for what you could do with some funding? > - Looks good to me! Was this also the process with getting a board seat over at the Rust Foundation, and the Kotlin Foundation?
- dlor 6y ago
  I wasn't involved in those, but probably not :)
vtadder 6y ago
How often have I seen innocent statements postfixed with smileys in open source projects? "Don't worry, we only want a little bit of X." Fast forward a couple of years, and the innocent group suddenly owns the mailing lists, the infrastructure, director seats, the chief ideologue position and subjugates the core developers who want to get hired by the innocent people.
MrYellowP 6y ago
Not saying giving money away for good causes is a bad thing, but why would you not simply save it?

by dlor 6y ago

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 6y ago

Always critics to everything and Google has grown big enough to be fun to hate. There's plenty of things to criticize what happens at your organization these days -- but this isn't one of them. Congrats

vlag10 6y ago

You are at the wrong address. The PSF has nothing to do with Python core. The proper way is to hire devs with proven track record and let them work 100% on the project.

dlor 6y ago
I think that's what's happening here - the PSF will be hiring someone to work 100% on core CPython for a year.

oefrha 6y ago

Thank you. Google has been sponsoring PSF for at least a decade -- cleared mentioned in TFA -- without much fuss; now the sponsorship level is upgraded ($90k to $150k?) and all of a sudden there's an uproar about Google taking over, shutting down (???), adding telemetry (?????), blah blah. The conspiracy theorists suddenly come out of the woodwork, the driveby haters (who I doubt even has any interest in Python) predictably dish out a stream of low effort Google memes... What a tedious thread to read, which is unfortunately just one example of the not even recent quality down spiral in any thread related to any big corp, regardless of whether there's a shred of connection between the topic and what certain people are angry about. To be clear, I'm not another guy with no interest in Python just seizing the opportunity to complain. I care about Python deeply and have quite a few patches in core over the years. Edit: I probably got the sponsorship dollar amounts wrong. The point stands.

typon 6y ago
With how Google behaves in other areas do you really fault people for being skeptical?
- tomrod 6y ago
  Were it MS I'd be concerned. At least in my circles Google isn't known for this type of outcome. Can you add some color/explanation/examples for why you feel skepticism is warranted?
  - gautamdivgi 6y ago
    Actually MS has been relatively hands-off on Postgres, GitHub, Xamarin, etc. Of course they want to integrate it closely with Azure & their toolset. But I don't see them compromising any functionality or making things specific to MS tools.
    - edgyquant 6y ago
      Does Microsoft have a stake in Postgres? I’m not aware of that if so (not that it would make me stop using it, anyway.)
      - gautamdivgi 6y ago
        They acquired Citus Data a while back
        anarazel 6y ago
        Citus Data paid for one full-time Postgres developer for a while (me, before I left), and a few employees contributed things on and off. That didn't really provide Citus with a meaningful amount of control over the community, hence Microsoft didn't have that either after the acquisition. Since then Microsoft has hired a few Postgres contributors (Jeff Davis, Thomas Munro, me, David Rowley, Melanie Plageman) to work on Postgres itself. While larger than before, that's still not anything close to a controlling fraction of Postgres developers. Microsoft has - I guess I can't really provide anything more than just my word on it - been giving us a lot of latitude what we work on. FWIW.

Jyaif 6y ago

Suggestion: To avoid the bad publicity, never be the largest donator.

dlor 6y ago
Hah - probably accurate! Someone has to do it though, and I don't mind. One of my goals here is to normalize big companies giving back like this. Even with budget and supportive leadership, spending money on OSS is surprisingly difficult.

olau 6y ago

It would be kind of cool if you could fund this guy mentioned below: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/RDXLCH22T2EZDRCBM6ZYYIUTBWQVVVWH/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/... I understand if it's too specific. But it would still be neat to see if someone could get the ball rolling. I think it would give some good publicity too. :)

amelius 6y ago

I dunno but perhaps it was better to spend the money on human support staff. Or on means to become less dependent on advertising income. Or on open-sourcing those "shut-down by Google" projects. Or on improving the sandbox/permissions system of Android. But I suppose that the corporate culture dictates that you don't discuss most of these topics with management.

throwaway19937 6y ago
> I dunno but perhaps it was better to spend the money on human support staff. Or on means to become less dependent on advertising income. Or on open-sourcing those "shut-down by Google" projects. Or on improving the sandbox/permissions system of Android. I certainly have my complaints about Google but this post is way off base. Whether Google pursues any of these possibilities has nothing to do with this sponsorship; they would all be in separate budgets. It's also highly unlikely that the grandparent has any input on these topics - how much influence do you have over your employer's strategic decisions? It's absurd to chastise someone in a large organization for decisions they almost certainly had nothing to do with. > But I suppose that the corporate culture dictates that you don't discuss most of these topics with management. Questioning strategic decisions is rarely beneficial to your career in any organization. I have yet to see anyone promoted for doing so but can think of at least 5 firings related to this.
- amelius 6y ago
  > Questioning strategic decisions is rarely beneficial to your career in any organization. So, you always make the more "convenient" decisions instead and pretend there aren't any problems? If this is the result of company culture then this is indeed not the individual's fault, but I sure hope I can at least comment on it?
  - throwaway19937 6y ago
    > So, you always make the more "convenient" decisions instead and pretend there aren't any problems? Denying a problem is senseless but you have to pick your battles. It's a waste of time and political capital to question some decisions. You have to pick the hill you want to die on. Strategic decisions are divided into at least the following categories: 1. Decisions and practices that are effectively written in stone. You probably aren't, for example, going to be able to move Google away from a monorepo. It can be difficult to identify this category from outside the organization. 2. Decisions that are open to influence by people in that part of the org chart. The Chrome developers, for example, probably have some influence on Google's involvement in WHATWG. Someone who works on ad quality probably doesn't. 3. Decisions that seems possible from outside the organization but the inside perspective is quite different. 4. Decisions that anyone can influence. Some of the successful Google protests fall into this category. 5. Decisions that only a director can influence because they don't listen to anyone below them in the org chart. Google is large enough that there are probably some directors like this. Google has been pursuing non-advertising sources of income for at least a decade; your other asks fall into at best category #2.

antman 6y ago

Thanks for the sponsorship! A nice next step would be to make a python a first class citizen on Android. After a series of freedoms in permission management have been revoked in the recent years Python has been effectively rendered useless on Android.

yannoninator 6y ago

> Disclosure: I'm the Googler that got this funded. > - We have some extra budget at the end of the year! What are some ways we can spend this to get results while giving back to OSS? > - Hey PSF, do you have any ideas for what you could do with some funding? > - Looks good to me! Was this also the process with getting a board seat over at the Rust Foundation, and the Kotlin Foundation?

dlor 6y ago
I wasn't involved in those, but probably not :)

vtadder 6y ago

How often have I seen innocent statements postfixed with smileys in open source projects? "Don't worry, we only want a little bit of X." Fast forward a couple of years, and the innocent group suddenly owns the mailing lists, the infrastructure, director seats, the chief ideologue position and subjugates the core developers who want to get hired by the innocent people.

MrYellowP 6y ago

Not saying giving money away for good causes is a bad thing, but why would you not simply save it?