7 ms·

No, no, no. The Metro UI is great. The tiles are smart, the apps are beautiful, the solution to multitasking is promising, but this whole new approach cannot c

No, no, no. The Metro UI is great. The tiles are smart, the apps are beautiful, the solution to multitasking is promising, but this whole new approach cannot coexist with a Windows desktop. I almost fell out of my seat when the demonstrator nonchalantly switched back to the Windows 7-style desktop, complete with start menu, taskbar, and maximized MS Office. This the old curse of Windows backward-compatibility in a new form – not in system-level cruft this time, but in incompatible UIs from completely different worlds. You can't put a new tablet UI and a traditional desktop UI next to each other on the same device and expect users to use them together. It's as if Microsoft is attempting its own "Back to the Mac," only they never actually left. Apple got it right, starting fresh with a new form factor and adapting appropriate elements of it to the desktop. Microsoft is also starting fresh with a new form factor, but then trying to shoehorn the whole thing onto the desktop. Of course, this is just a preview. I'm sure things will change a lot between now and the next preview, let alone the final release. But this isn't starting off on the right foot.

matwood 15y ago
I don't know if I'd say he switched back. It looked more like the win7 UI was contained in it's own tile, and only came about because he ran a non-win8 app (Excel). Pretty smart way to maintain backwards compatibility. One thing that did jump out at me was that it seemed to be best suited for a tablet and NOT a desktop computer. Hopefully MS keeps building on it and the new desktop doesn't turn out to be Bob 2.0 :)
zdw 15y ago
Absolutely right. There are some really really crufty bits of Windows in there, and they don't ever fix them, or at least do little things to update the interface to current standards. The first thing I try with any new Windows release is to add a font using their interface (not just dragging it into the fonts folder). The "Add font" dialog box is STILL circa Windows NT/3.1 era.
- Andrex 15y ago
  I was pretty sure they fixed that with Windows 7.
  - zdw 15y ago
    Go try it. It's the same "Pick a drive then navigate folders" dialog from ages ago - see these instructions (which are from Vista but apply to 7): http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Install-or-uninstall-fonts http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Install-or-...
    - georgemcbay 15y ago
      I realize that is Microsoft's own documentation but... who on earth installs a font that way? Just double click the font file and it'll install.
      - mishmash 15y ago
        Why is it part of the OS then?
        Hov 15y ago
        Uhh, who cares?
        listic 15y ago
        For UI backwards compatibility, maybe? It sounds good if you think of it this way.
    - seabee 15y ago
      There's no 'Install New Font' in the File menu in Win 7 64-bit, and you have to press Alt before you can even find the menu there! Are you sure those instructions are still valid?
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      In Win7 they changed the instructions: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Install-or-delete-fonts http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Install-or-delet... Here's the instruction for those that don't want to click the linK: Right-click the font you want to install and click Install.
- Luyt 15y ago
  This annoys me too, for example, Windows 7 has this flashy 'aero' GUI on the top, but as soon as you descend below that, for example when setting environment variables or adjusting TCP/IP settings, you're back into Win3.1 prehistory and those cramped windows aren't even sizable so you have to scroll a square inch of visible space around with both horizontal and vertical scrollbars on a friggin 30" screen to find that specific network adapter.
brisance 15y ago
Agreed. It's a good effort, but there seem to be many UI problems. e.g. when he launches Excel 2010 under Windows 7, focus has to be in the Excel context otherwise touches on the right side will bring up the task switcher instead of scrolling. And what's with the virtual "Control" key being in the default keyboard? That should only be exposed to Emacs/shell users etc.
- assemble 15y ago
  Ctrl+Z,X,C,V,R,Y,B,I,E, etc. work in Word, Excel, any web browser--actually, any windows application that uses standard controls.
ghempton 15y ago
As long as you can stay inside the metro tiles if you want, what's the harm in allowing power user's to actually be productive? Sure, some Apps will only be available as desktop apps at the start, but they will just function as low hanging fruit for developers.
- bruceboughton 15y ago
  Excel is only for power users?
  - nkassis 15y ago
    Actually I was under the impression that Excel was the Emacs(I'm an emacs users :) ) of the non power users. They spend their entire life in there. If Microsoft would just embed IE into Excel(I know someone will point out how this is already happening ;0p) then they would never have to switch app. My dad spends minimum 4-5 hours of his day in Excel. He's an accountant and uses it to organize all types of info on clients. On the other hand I almost never use excel. About the only time (and I use google docs anyway) is for managing bills.
Luyt 15y ago
I'd say "no, no, no" too, because prolonged use of a vertical touch surface is ergonomically unfeasible.
- mishmash 15y ago
  Saw that too, surely they'll make a toggle or something to switch x/y-axis, maybe it's already in Windows?
  - kiiski 15y ago
    I think one of use misunderstood him. I assume he meant that using a touch screen that's in front of you (vertically) is unfeasible (nothing to do with x/y-axises).
    - mishmash 15y ago
      Oh, yeah I was talking about the millions of primarily vertical scrolling mousewheels Microsoft helped put out there.
- mikecane 15y ago
  I wonder if they've thought about a Kinect interface so Air Gestures can be used for those who intend to have an upright screen mostly for keyboard-heavy work.
- 5teev 15y ago
  It might be good for extremely passive users for whom a computer is just a fancy TV. Tap the screen, sit back and watch stuff. This is one of those features that seems really cool in a demo, but in practice...well, even decades later my shoulder hurts just thinking about the hour I spent using a "light pen" interface on a vertical "touch" screen.
leif 15y ago
It's not finished yet. Maybe they will eliminate the windows 7-style desktop you saw before the end. Chill ouuuuut. But this isn't starting off on the right foot Where did you expect them to start from? Build the kernel from scratch?
- fbnt 15y ago
  Where did you expect them to start from? Build the kernel from scratch? That actually wouldn't be a bad idea. As someone pointed out, I also feel that filesystem hierarchy, window frames and the desktop metaphor is now outdated and overly stretched. Imho, they would be better come out with a whole new OS with no backwards compatibility, while keeping developing windows for the time necessary (10-15 years) to allow most of its users and software a 'transition' to the new system. If they don't do it, someone else will do.
  - leif 15y ago
    That's not how their market works. They need to keep enterprise (which requires backwards compatibility) and consumer unified if they want to throw their weight around the way they need to (particularly with hardware vendors). This may not be the right strategy, but it is theirs and I see that as much more entrenched than even the most legacy features windows.
abhijitr 15y ago
Isn't that like saying the Mac OS GUI cannot coexist with command-line based apps?
- Limes102 15y ago
  Not really, Mac OS is GUI and CLI... Windows 8 will be GUI, GUI, CLI
  - taken11 15y ago
    Windows has a CLI now?
    - encoderer 15y ago
      On the off chance you were NOT being snarky, yes. PowerShell is actually pretty great. A lot of bash-e-ness (I can 'ls' for example), and it's a really powerful programming enviornment. I guess the easiest one-liner to describe it is: In bash, you can build tiny apps and pipe textual output from one to another. In PowerShell, you can pipe objects.
nopassrecover 15y ago
I agree with you 100%. It seems as though the UI team came up with this concept, which is a cool prototype, but naively misses a lot of the functionality that the standard interface has evolved over time. As such, it either needs to be better integrated (e.g. just an active desktop + widgets all over again with some flashier task switching) or purely for mobile devices (say a special edition you can install). As it stands it's an ugly hybrid of both UIs that just screams "we don't know how to make this work well for regular daily operations (e.g. file management)".
benaston 15y ago
I also agree. There are so many fundamental issues with Windows that do not seem to be being addressed such as - the entire desktop metaphor (tired, outdated, can be improved upon) - the entire hierarchical filesystem metaphor likewise - application installation - the registry - WinSxs - seriously, take a look at how much space this directory "wastes" (increasingly important with virtualisation and SSDs) - the start menu - it's not useable, honestly - ribbon UI (don't even get me started) - the whole look and feel of Windows (more akin to Fisher Price than polished glass and aluminium) - the quality of bundled applications - notepad and paint - seriously? in 2011? - I could go on and on and on. If it weren't for the quality of the .NET stack and the jobs market for .NET I would be on Linux/OSX in a flash IMO, Windows merely reflects the beuraucratic uninspired organisation that creates it. This will never change, so really, I shouldn't get so upset, but I have to work with this goddam OS, so it grates a little.
- joshhunt 15y ago
  I think that this is definitely a step in the right direction - I just wonder how far they will take this. I think it was very obvious that what we saw was a far from polished demo and hopefully they will bridge the gap between the Metro UX and the classic Windows UX. And in defence of the bundled apps, 7 does come with both Wordpad and Notepad. So much better than what OS X bundles.
  - Kyashii 15y ago
    Mac OS X comes with TextEdit and Vim, I would say they are far better than Wordpad and Notepad.
    - joshhunt 15y ago
      Seriously? I mean, don't get me wrong: I love OS X and it does pretty much everything better than Windows, and its other bundled apps beat Windows hands down (Mail.app for example), but I really can't say that TextEdit can beat Wordpad http://www.webtechpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/wordpadinwin2007.png http://www.webtechpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/wordp... http://developer.apple.com/ue/accessibility/images/TextEdit.jpeg http://developer.apple.com/ue/accessibility/images/TextEdit....
Kyashii 15y ago
I do like the Metro UI, and I find it awesome in a lot of ways, but it mostly seems forced and not that effective if you are using keyboard/mouse. As a developer I doubt I would use the Metro UI a lot, so it would mostly be a shiny thing to randomly switch to. It also worries me a bit that so many OS:es are moving away from keyboard-based navigation. One can always hope for good keyboard shortcuts, Win 7 has some good quite hidden keyboard shortcuts after all. Also, how does it scale to my 3-display development machine? Multi-monitor may not be the standard, but it is quite common with monitor-prices going down. Mac OS X is quite random when it comes to scaling to multi-monitor. I guess we'll eventually figure these things out, but a lot of uncertainties so far.
chappi42 15y ago
Why not? With apple you have to buy/carry/maintain two physical devices (ipad, notebook) and here you potentially can choose/switch within the same device. Way smarter and more environment friendly too.
jshort 15y ago
To me it looks like a more versatile and updated windows media center. When using a PC I found it much easier to access my media files without media center, I wonder if this will follow suit as a flashy tool that goes unused.

matwood 15y ago

I don't know if I'd say he switched back. It looked more like the win7 UI was contained in it's own tile, and only came about because he ran a non-win8 app (Excel). Pretty smart way to maintain backwards compatibility. One thing that did jump out at me was that it seemed to be best suited for a tablet and NOT a desktop computer. Hopefully MS keeps building on it and the new desktop doesn't turn out to be Bob 2.0 :)

zdw 15y ago

Absolutely right. There are some really really crufty bits of Windows in there, and they don't ever fix them, or at least do little things to update the interface to current standards. The first thing I try with any new Windows release is to add a font using their interface (not just dragging it into the fonts folder). The "Add font" dialog box is STILL circa Windows NT/3.1 era.

Andrex 15y ago
I was pretty sure they fixed that with Windows 7.
- zdw 15y ago
  Go try it. It's the same "Pick a drive then navigate folders" dialog from ages ago - see these instructions (which are from Vista but apply to 7): http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Install-or-uninstall-fonts http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Install-or-...
  - georgemcbay 15y ago
    I realize that is Microsoft's own documentation but... who on earth installs a font that way? Just double click the font file and it'll install.
    - mishmash 15y ago
      Why is it part of the OS then?
      - Hov 15y ago
        Uhh, who cares?
      - listic 15y ago
        For UI backwards compatibility, maybe? It sounds good if you think of it this way.
  - seabee 15y ago
    There's no 'Install New Font' in the File menu in Win 7 64-bit, and you have to press Alt before you can even find the menu there! Are you sure those instructions are still valid?
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    In Win7 they changed the instructions: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Install-or-delete-fonts http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Install-or-delet... Here's the instruction for those that don't want to click the linK: Right-click the font you want to install and click Install.
Luyt 15y ago
This annoys me too, for example, Windows 7 has this flashy 'aero' GUI on the top, but as soon as you descend below that, for example when setting environment variables or adjusting TCP/IP settings, you're back into Win3.1 prehistory and those cramped windows aren't even sizable so you have to scroll a square inch of visible space around with both horizontal and vertical scrollbars on a friggin 30" screen to find that specific network adapter.

brisance 15y ago

Agreed. It's a good effort, but there seem to be many UI problems. e.g. when he launches Excel 2010 under Windows 7, focus has to be in the Excel context otherwise touches on the right side will bring up the task switcher instead of scrolling. And what's with the virtual "Control" key being in the default keyboard? That should only be exposed to Emacs/shell users etc.

assemble 15y ago
Ctrl+Z,X,C,V,R,Y,B,I,E, etc. work in Word, Excel, any web browser--actually, any windows application that uses standard controls.

ghempton 15y ago

As long as you can stay inside the metro tiles if you want, what's the harm in allowing power user's to actually be productive? Sure, some Apps will only be available as desktop apps at the start, but they will just function as low hanging fruit for developers.

bruceboughton 15y ago
Excel is only for power users?
- nkassis 15y ago
  Actually I was under the impression that Excel was the Emacs(I'm an emacs users :) ) of the non power users. They spend their entire life in there. If Microsoft would just embed IE into Excel(I know someone will point out how this is already happening ;0p) then they would never have to switch app. My dad spends minimum 4-5 hours of his day in Excel. He's an accountant and uses it to organize all types of info on clients. On the other hand I almost never use excel. About the only time (and I use google docs anyway) is for managing bills.

Luyt 15y ago

I'd say "no, no, no" too, because prolonged use of a vertical touch surface is ergonomically unfeasible.

mishmash 15y ago
Saw that too, surely they'll make a toggle or something to switch x/y-axis, maybe it's already in Windows?
- kiiski 15y ago
  I think one of use misunderstood him. I assume he meant that using a touch screen that's in front of you (vertically) is unfeasible (nothing to do with x/y-axises).
  - mishmash 15y ago
    Oh, yeah I was talking about the millions of primarily vertical scrolling mousewheels Microsoft helped put out there.
mikecane 15y ago
I wonder if they've thought about a Kinect interface so Air Gestures can be used for those who intend to have an upright screen mostly for keyboard-heavy work.
5teev 15y ago
It might be good for extremely passive users for whom a computer is just a fancy TV. Tap the screen, sit back and watch stuff. This is one of those features that seems really cool in a demo, but in practice...well, even decades later my shoulder hurts just thinking about the hour I spent using a "light pen" interface on a vertical "touch" screen.

leif 15y ago

It's not finished yet. Maybe they will eliminate the windows 7-style desktop you saw before the end. Chill ouuuuut. But this isn't starting off on the right foot Where did you expect them to start from? Build the kernel from scratch?

fbnt 15y ago
Where did you expect them to start from? Build the kernel from scratch? That actually wouldn't be a bad idea. As someone pointed out, I also feel that filesystem hierarchy, window frames and the desktop metaphor is now outdated and overly stretched. Imho, they would be better come out with a whole new OS with no backwards compatibility, while keeping developing windows for the time necessary (10-15 years) to allow most of its users and software a 'transition' to the new system. If they don't do it, someone else will do.
- leif 15y ago
  That's not how their market works. They need to keep enterprise (which requires backwards compatibility) and consumer unified if they want to throw their weight around the way they need to (particularly with hardware vendors). This may not be the right strategy, but it is theirs and I see that as much more entrenched than even the most legacy features windows.

abhijitr 15y ago

Isn't that like saying the Mac OS GUI cannot coexist with command-line based apps?

Limes102 15y ago
Not really, Mac OS is GUI and CLI... Windows 8 will be GUI, GUI, CLI
- taken11 15y ago
  Windows has a CLI now?
  - encoderer 15y ago
    On the off chance you were NOT being snarky, yes. PowerShell is actually pretty great. A lot of bash-e-ness (I can 'ls' for example), and it's a really powerful programming enviornment. I guess the easiest one-liner to describe it is: In bash, you can build tiny apps and pipe textual output from one to another. In PowerShell, you can pipe objects.

nopassrecover 15y ago

I agree with you 100%. It seems as though the UI team came up with this concept, which is a cool prototype, but naively misses a lot of the functionality that the standard interface has evolved over time. As such, it either needs to be better integrated (e.g. just an active desktop + widgets all over again with some flashier task switching) or purely for mobile devices (say a special edition you can install). As it stands it's an ugly hybrid of both UIs that just screams "we don't know how to make this work well for regular daily operations (e.g. file management)".

benaston 15y ago

I also agree. There are so many fundamental issues with Windows that do not seem to be being addressed such as - the entire desktop metaphor (tired, outdated, can be improved upon) - the entire hierarchical filesystem metaphor likewise - application installation - the registry - WinSxs - seriously, take a look at how much space this directory "wastes" (increasingly important with virtualisation and SSDs) - the start menu - it's not useable, honestly - ribbon UI (don't even get me started) - the whole look and feel of Windows (more akin to Fisher Price than polished glass and aluminium) - the quality of bundled applications - notepad and paint - seriously? in 2011? - I could go on and on and on. If it weren't for the quality of the .NET stack and the jobs market for .NET I would be on Linux/OSX in a flash IMO, Windows merely reflects the beuraucratic uninspired organisation that creates it. This will never change, so really, I shouldn't get so upset, but I have to work with this goddam OS, so it grates a little.

joshhunt 15y ago
I think that this is definitely a step in the right direction - I just wonder how far they will take this. I think it was very obvious that what we saw was a far from polished demo and hopefully they will bridge the gap between the Metro UX and the classic Windows UX. And in defence of the bundled apps, 7 does come with both Wordpad and Notepad. So much better than what OS X bundles.
- Kyashii 15y ago
  Mac OS X comes with TextEdit and Vim, I would say they are far better than Wordpad and Notepad.
  - joshhunt 15y ago
    Seriously? I mean, don't get me wrong: I love OS X and it does pretty much everything better than Windows, and its other bundled apps beat Windows hands down (Mail.app for example), but I really can't say that TextEdit can beat Wordpad http://www.webtechpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/wordpadinwin2007.png http://www.webtechpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/wordp... http://developer.apple.com/ue/accessibility/images/TextEdit.jpeg http://developer.apple.com/ue/accessibility/images/TextEdit....

Kyashii 15y ago

I do like the Metro UI, and I find it awesome in a lot of ways, but it mostly seems forced and not that effective if you are using keyboard/mouse. As a developer I doubt I would use the Metro UI a lot, so it would mostly be a shiny thing to randomly switch to. It also worries me a bit that so many OS:es are moving away from keyboard-based navigation. One can always hope for good keyboard shortcuts, Win 7 has some good quite hidden keyboard shortcuts after all. Also, how does it scale to my 3-display development machine? Multi-monitor may not be the standard, but it is quite common with monitor-prices going down. Mac OS X is quite random when it comes to scaling to multi-monitor. I guess we'll eventually figure these things out, but a lot of uncertainties so far.

chappi42 15y ago

Why not? With apple you have to buy/carry/maintain two physical devices (ipad, notebook) and here you potentially can choose/switch within the same device. Way smarter and more environment friendly too.

jshort 15y ago

To me it looks like a more versatile and updated windows media center. When using a PC I found it much easier to access my media files without media center, I wonder if this will follow suit as a flashy tool that goes unused.