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>They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able I don't understand why people make arguments li

by treis 6y ago

>They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able I don't understand why people make arguments like this. Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. There's a whole swath of acceptable and achievable options. Giving doses to friends and family is a pretty bright ethical line. I don't think arresting him is the right call. But there shouldn't be much dispute that he acted wrongly here.

endisneigh 6y ago
I don’t understand this take - it’s not like his friends and family were the first ones he offered the vaccine to.
- whoisburbansky 6y ago
  The article says “acquaintances and strangers,” and his wife. If he was trying to prioritize family and friends you’d think he’d give it to his elderly dad right off the bat.
ceejayoz 6y ago
> Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. With a six hour window, it's unlikely he's gonna be able to invent a fair queuing system on his own, and get applicants to it. The article indicates he tried first with EMS, police, etc. at the vaccination location. There should be state-wide efforts at this; a "we might call you at 2am to ask you if you can be to the hospital by 3am for a shot" list.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  > Around 6:45 at night, as the event wound down, an eligible person arrived for a shot. A nurse punctured a new vial to administer the vaccine, which activated the six-hour time limit for the 10 remaining doses. Why would the nurse open a new vial when they know they are about to close? That is very reckless, considering that vaccination is not time critical. That person could just come back tomorrow.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    There are plenty of folks for which getting to a vaccination site is already a hardship - having to get time off work, arranging transportation and childcare, etc. Doubling that effort unnecessarily leads to poor outcomes, too.
  - valarauko 6y ago
    I'm not sure what's the situation in Tx. especially in December, but here in NY getting an appointment is the limiting factor. Even as of today, there are no appointments available for eligible recipients till mid April. An appointment only gets you through the door, and if you can't make it you have to get a fresh appointment through the state website. The vaccination site itself cannot reschedule your appointment for the next day - it can only book a follow up for the second dose weeks later. Source: I work at a medical school, and was told this by the doctor managing the vaccination line. He walks up and down the line, counting the number of people who showed up and opens the vials accordingly, but he's not in a position to ask anybody to come the next day. At least with Moderna, it's 10 doses per vial. Even though my employer had sufficient vaccine supply for us, our hospital was overrun with COVID cases in early January and medical staff to actually perform the vaccination was in short supply. The senior medical students were recruited to help out, and even then it would take many weeks to cover our staff. I actually got vaccinated at a different site 30 miles away, but I doubt this is an option available to most people. If you miss your appointment you're screwed.
- treis 6y ago
  I've said this in other responses but it's worth repeating. He was the medical director of the Covid vaccination program for the county. If there was no plan for left over vaccines that's his fault. Nobody expects him to come up with a perfectly fair queueing system on the spot. He should have done that sometime in the 6 months he had to prepare for the rollout. Even if we overlook that, using your position of public trust for personal benefit or for the benefit of your friends is a bright line you are not supposed to cross. And it is a bright line that is there for good reason and should be enforced.
x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
The article addresses your concerns. He was willing to give the vaccine to anyone he could get his hands on. After that, he chose people who were teetering on the edge healthwise, while only having a few hours to do so. If he were turning away people from the vaccine site and squirreling away vaccines for friends and family that would be a bright line, but that's not what happened here at all.
- underseacables 6y ago
  “ did you read the article“ Please don’t make statements like this, it is against the rules. “Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that.”
  - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
    I changed it.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Is there a specific alternative option you have in mind? The article mentions that he tried vaccinating everyone in the clinic and called the county to ask; I'm legitimately unsure what else he could have done to find people.
- treis 6y ago
  >Is there a specific alternative option you have in mind Go to the nearest grocery store/ Firehouse / police station and give them to front line workers.
  - runako 6y ago
    Not sure about in TX, but in my state the list of people he actually vaccinated comes before front line workers. I'm impressed that he was able to find so many head-of-the-line people so quickly. (Further, he made house calls to sick elderly people, which is something sorely missing from our existing vaccination strategy.)
  - crispyambulance 6y ago
    That sounds superficially reasonable, but would you get what appears to be a vaccination from some random stranger that shows up with a syringe? He distributed the vaccine to people that knew him (or were in his social network) in the very limited time he had left. The DA who pursued this should be dis-barred.
    - treis 6y ago
      >That sounds superficially reasonable, but would you get what appears to be a vaccination from some random stranger that shows up with a syringe? With ID, sure. Besides, he's been the medical director of the Covid response for the county since April. His job was to put procedures to handle situations like this in place.
      - crispyambulance 6y ago
        Do you know what the ID of "the medical director of Covid response since April" looks like? I don't and neither do you or the firemen/police he would approach.
jounker 6y ago
His job was to use up all the vaccine. He tried to give it to the professionals around him first (eg law enforcement and hospital workers). Then he searched out people who met the criteria for vaccination. Yes, he ended up giving the last dose to his wife, but the last dose that was about to expire, he wasn’t going to find another person in the time left, and his wife me the medical criteria. The guy is a hero who is going above and beyond what his job requires, and not a criminal.
btilly 6y ago
Giving doses to friends and family is a pretty bright ethical line. I don't think arresting him is the right call. But there shouldn't be much dispute that he acted wrongly here. Give me a break. The guy started work before dawn. The countdown started after 6 PM. He had 6 hours to find 10 eligible recipients that met the guidelines. Most that he found were strangers. He gave the last dose to his wife after he had only found 9, and it was after midnight. It is easy to sit in an armchair and say that he should have found someone else. But how?

by treis 6y ago

endisneigh 6y ago

I don’t understand this take - it’s not like his friends and family were the first ones he offered the vaccine to.

whoisburbansky 6y ago
The article says “acquaintances and strangers,” and his wife. If he was trying to prioritize family and friends you’d think he’d give it to his elderly dad right off the bat.

ceejayoz 6y ago

> Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. With a six hour window, it's unlikely he's gonna be able to invent a fair queuing system on his own, and get applicants to it. The article indicates he tried first with EMS, police, etc. at the vaccination location. There should be state-wide efforts at this; a "we might call you at 2am to ask you if you can be to the hospital by 3am for a shot" list.

Grustaf 6y ago
> Around 6:45 at night, as the event wound down, an eligible person arrived for a shot. A nurse punctured a new vial to administer the vaccine, which activated the six-hour time limit for the 10 remaining doses. Why would the nurse open a new vial when they know they are about to close? That is very reckless, considering that vaccination is not time critical. That person could just come back tomorrow.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  There are plenty of folks for which getting to a vaccination site is already a hardship - having to get time off work, arranging transportation and childcare, etc. Doubling that effort unnecessarily leads to poor outcomes, too.
- valarauko 6y ago
  I'm not sure what's the situation in Tx. especially in December, but here in NY getting an appointment is the limiting factor. Even as of today, there are no appointments available for eligible recipients till mid April. An appointment only gets you through the door, and if you can't make it you have to get a fresh appointment through the state website. The vaccination site itself cannot reschedule your appointment for the next day - it can only book a follow up for the second dose weeks later. Source: I work at a medical school, and was told this by the doctor managing the vaccination line. He walks up and down the line, counting the number of people who showed up and opens the vials accordingly, but he's not in a position to ask anybody to come the next day. At least with Moderna, it's 10 doses per vial. Even though my employer had sufficient vaccine supply for us, our hospital was overrun with COVID cases in early January and medical staff to actually perform the vaccination was in short supply. The senior medical students were recruited to help out, and even then it would take many weeks to cover our staff. I actually got vaccinated at a different site 30 miles away, but I doubt this is an option available to most people. If you miss your appointment you're screwed.
treis 6y ago
I've said this in other responses but it's worth repeating. He was the medical director of the Covid vaccination program for the county. If there was no plan for left over vaccines that's his fault. Nobody expects him to come up with a perfectly fair queueing system on the spot. He should have done that sometime in the 6 months he had to prepare for the rollout. Even if we overlook that, using your position of public trust for personal benefit or for the benefit of your friends is a bright line you are not supposed to cross. And it is a bright line that is there for good reason and should be enforced.

x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago

The article addresses your concerns. He was willing to give the vaccine to anyone he could get his hands on. After that, he chose people who were teetering on the edge healthwise, while only having a few hours to do so. If he were turning away people from the vaccine site and squirreling away vaccines for friends and family that would be a bright line, but that's not what happened here at all.

underseacables 6y ago
“ did you read the article“ Please don’t make statements like this, it is against the rules. “Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that.”
- x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
  I changed it.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

Is there a specific alternative option you have in mind? The article mentions that he tried vaccinating everyone in the clinic and called the county to ask; I'm legitimately unsure what else he could have done to find people.

treis 6y ago
>Is there a specific alternative option you have in mind Go to the nearest grocery store/ Firehouse / police station and give them to front line workers.
- runako 6y ago
  Not sure about in TX, but in my state the list of people he actually vaccinated comes before front line workers. I'm impressed that he was able to find so many head-of-the-line people so quickly. (Further, he made house calls to sick elderly people, which is something sorely missing from our existing vaccination strategy.)
- crispyambulance 6y ago
  That sounds superficially reasonable, but would you get what appears to be a vaccination from some random stranger that shows up with a syringe? He distributed the vaccine to people that knew him (or were in his social network) in the very limited time he had left. The DA who pursued this should be dis-barred.
  - treis 6y ago
    >That sounds superficially reasonable, but would you get what appears to be a vaccination from some random stranger that shows up with a syringe? With ID, sure. Besides, he's been the medical director of the Covid response for the county since April. His job was to put procedures to handle situations like this in place.
    - crispyambulance 6y ago
      Do you know what the ID of "the medical director of Covid response since April" looks like? I don't and neither do you or the firemen/police he would approach.

jounker 6y ago

His job was to use up all the vaccine. He tried to give it to the professionals around him first (eg law enforcement and hospital workers). Then he searched out people who met the criteria for vaccination. Yes, he ended up giving the last dose to his wife, but the last dose that was about to expire, he wasn’t going to find another person in the time left, and his wife me the medical criteria. The guy is a hero who is going above and beyond what his job requires, and not a criminal.

btilly 6y ago

Giving doses to friends and family is a pretty bright ethical line. I don't think arresting him is the right call. But there shouldn't be much dispute that he acted wrongly here. Give me a break. The guy started work before dawn. The countdown started after 6 PM. He had 6 hours to find 10 eligible recipients that met the guidelines. Most that he found were strangers. He gave the last dose to his wife after he had only found 9, and it was after midnight. It is easy to sit in an armchair and say that he should have found someone else. But how?