13 ms·
Farmers are having to hack their own tractors to make repairs
- Jkvngt 6y agoJohn Deere is an abusive company which despises its customers, and these customers reward them by gleefully buying that new million dollar harvester and doffing branded caps at every occasion. It’s extremely difficult to pity the farmer in this case. They are planning soon to change all their dimensions to conform with metric farming practices and spacing, which will entail having to re-buy all new stuff again. Oops maybe I shouldn’t have said that last part out loud, it might still be a secret...
- 29athrowaway 6y agoJohn Deere is another MBAized company that is no longer in touch with reality, just powerpoints presentations.
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago> It’s extremely difficult to pity the farmer in this case. What are the available options?
- moistbar 6y agoKubota and New Holland seem to be popular in my area, to the extent that I used to drive past a Kubota dealership on my way to some high school extracurricular or other.
- Jkvngt 6y agoBoycott the company, buy from another manufacturer, lobby the Iowa government to stop these abusive practices. Or just sit back, bend over, pull down your pants, and take it while wearing the branded cap of the company which is abusing you? Really it’s all about choice now isn’t it?
- cmroanirgo 6y agoParts availability is a massive factor. When you break down mid-task, your task is often time sensitive. You can't always risk having your tractor stuck in the middle of a paddock for weeks while you get new parts in. So, the reality of choice is pretty much down to what your local tractor seller/repairer supports, because they'll have the supply chain setup to cope with certain brands only.
- Jkvngt 6y agoThe issue is that the tractor senses if you try to repair it yourself. There’s a trap mechanism which will punish you if you’re audacious enough to try to fix your machine.
- MikeUt 6y ago> lobby the Iowa government to stop these abusive practices. Isn't the right to repair movement exactly that? I don't think farmers are entirely absent from it.
- tomc1985 6y agoFrom what I hear the resale market on old farm equipment rivals Apple products in their ability to retain their value
- mikey_p 6y agoNot much out there to compete with the new X series combines. Claas Lexion is pretty much the only series contender in the 6000 bu/hr range.
- zucked 6y agoIs there a better option? Is Case or whatever else (sorry, not up on farm implements) a better option?
- randomdata 6y agoWhen I needed to fix my Case IH planter, the dealer handed me the service manual (book) and off I went. When I needed to fix my John Deere combine, the repair tech had to decrypt the service manual on his laptop for me. There does seem to be some different cultures around protecting information, but I was able to access what I needed in both cases, so I'm not sure it makes that much difference at the end of the day. I haven't had much trouble with Deere not willing to work with me and my equipment. No more than any other brand, and my shed has all the major brands in it. There is no doubt a squeeze on people who don't own John Deere equipment, but wish to have an independent career fixing John Deere farm equipment on behalf of other farmers. That isn't a problem seen by farmers directly, though.
- falcolas 6y agoIf you've lived in the midwest anywhere in the last, I dunno, 5 decades, you'll know that John Deere plays the long game. They advertise to people from their infancy to their adulthood. They have more brand recognition in the midwest than either Pepsi and Coke. When you've been exposed to this kind of life-long influence, it's hard to break out of the mindset. You know John Deere Green, and they've been associated with quality and durability and they belong with you on the farm. They're all but family. Case, or that weird orange company with the foreign name, on the other hand, are strangers who you don't know if you can trust. Advertising, no matter how much we say to the contrary, works. And John Deere are old hands at that trade.
- grogenaut 6y agoIn the 90s in rural missouri everyone had those orange tractors (new). Or the red ones (older, or new combines). Or the blue ones (new). Not very many green ones except rusting in the field or as the toy old one you used for around the property work while the real one was doing real work.
- m463 6y agoHarley Davidson. Marlboro. Jack Daniels. American Music and Films. If you ever want to see the power of advertising go to another country and it will all be there.
- onethought 6y agoThat isn’t just advertising that’s American soft power projection (especially with music and film) - trade agreements have helped the others.
- Daho0n 6y agoBeing there is not always the same as success. Harley for example is seen as overpriced extremely bad quality by almost all bikers outside the US, except maybe by the few who own a Harley. Pretty much the same as Jack Daniels, except that is at least as cheap as it tastes.
- throwawayboise 6y agoAs the article alludes, they really aren't different from Tesla in this regard.
- ActorNightly 6y agoKinda interesting that people seem to agree here that John Deere is abusive, but Apple does the same thing with consumer electronics, and tends to have a favorable view on this subreddit.
- johnbrodie 6y agoTesla is pushing the same anti-right-to-repair angle and also seems to get (mostly) admiration by the "tech community" at large. As seems to always be the case, it's a lot easier to be critical when the company/group/individual isn't "on your side".
- 93po 6y agoTesla avoids supporting third party repairs because repairing a potentially damaged self driving system or damaged batteries can have really bad outcomes. People scrutinize Tesla enough as it is without shoddy repairs making it worse
- alasdair_ 6y agoDo you know how many farming accidents involve tractors and combine harvesters etc. ? The exact same argument could apply there.
- syshum 6y agoYou do know that is EXACT same flawed logic that Auto Manufacturers have been making for Decades... and the EXACT same aurgument that John Deere, Apple and every other Anti-Repair advocate makes The plebs just can not be trusted to repair their own things, it is far too dangerous. If you repair you iPhone you might burn down your home, if you repair your brakes you might kill grandma, and if you repair are Tesla you might ..... Safety has never, and will never be a valid reason to prohibit independent / self repair
- Daho0n 6y agoWhich is luckily illegal in the EU. Tesla will be sued big time at some point as they do not play by the rules like the other manufacturers. Tesla makes VW look like pure angles.
- adolph 6y agoIf they doff the branded caps, they are taking them off which suggests not having an affinity with the brand.
- lovemenot 6y agoUsually just temporarily though. Indicating their paying respect or subservience to another. See also hat-tip.
- optimalsolver 6y agoNot the person you're replying to, but he's using the term correctly. Doffing the cap is a sign of respect.
- scrooched_moose 6y agoThe entire industry does. I work for a component supplier in the industry and the US companies are just awful. Their two priorities are: 1) Proprietary Fit - how do they prevent their customers from buying replacement components from third parties and keep them coming back to them for maintenance 2) Look and feel - I've seen major contracts decided on which design had fake diamond plate to project "toughness", despite higher price and worse performance. Price and performance are somewhat farther down the list and barely enter into the decisions. The European and Japanese companies in contrast actually care about and drive performance requirements.
- loonster 6y agoI've done work for a well known euro car maker, and they had several of the brackets interfering in CAD. This could have been avoided with a simple collision check that they should have done. After informing them of the errors, they fixed the print with a -/- tolerance and left the 3d model interfering. All of the domestic car manufacturers took great care to ensure clearance between parts. (I'm a Toyota fanboy but have never done work for them.)
- scrooched_moose 6y agoI don't have any automotive experience but that largely squares with what I hear through the grapevine in the Auto industry. In the heavy machinery industry which Deere opporates it's mostly the opposite. Kubota, Agco, Bosch etc. are miles ahead of Deere and Caterpillar; who are largely relying on past reputation at this point.
- sunflowerfly 6y agoI live in the Midwest (and hate JD). Many continue to buy from them simply because they are the only company that guarantees parts years after production. They will make a 100 year old part if they get enough orders for it. Most other manufacturers have been bought and sold, often making parts hard to source.
- dbcurtis 6y ago> They are planning soon to change all their dimensions to conform with metric farming practices and spacing, which will entail having to re-buy all new stuff again. Oh, please. Every planter tool bar that I have ever seen allows planter boxes/heads to be moved and clamped at fairly arbitrary space. Combine heads, not so, but, meh, change the planter to fit the combine.
- crb002 6y agoIt's Qt on Linux just like Tesla. Builds take 40+ minutes even with ICECREAM. Even Deere developers have a hard time fixing issues. Both Deere and Tesla need to be fully open sourced in FCC filings modulo crypto keys.
- zucked 6y agoPrices for pre-tech tractors have been spiking as a result, too: https://www.startribune.com/for-tech-weary-midwest-farmers-40-year-old-tractors-now-a-hot-commodity/566737082/?refresh=true https://www.startribune.com/for-tech-weary-midwest-farmers-4...
- dandersh 6y agoWhich is why I was floored when my friend told me that not only did they get less than expected for theirs, but the person bought it to scrap it. This was in MN and using an online auction too.
- VikingCoder 6y agoSounds like the market isn't tech savvy, which is a huge shame.
- meowster 6y agoEither your friend was selling for below scrap value, or maybe the buyer worked for John Deere.
- missedthecue 6y agoSeems like a market opportunity for someone to start building simple tractors.
- hoseja 6y agoOr this is happening precisely because the current manufacturers are confident they've managed to close all entrypoints. A "simple tractor" probably has no chance passing environmental and other regulations.
- teeray 6y agoThis has been solved in trucking by “glider kits.” It’s basically a way to ship-of-theseus your way into a “new” truck without meeting emissions, since you have an old, meticulously rebuilt engine (but still grandfathered).
- dmitrygr 6y agoI love reverse engineering hardware/firmware and am reasonably successful at it. I'd love to help with this. How do I get involved? Is there a mailing list? Discord? Forum?
- missedthecue 6y agoRent some billboards around Dubuque, Iowa?
- ahepp 6y agoI don't have experience in reverse engineering (ie I'm probably no use), but I would also be very interested in knowing
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- motohagiography 6y agoDid a quick search for open source machine templates, was not disappointed: https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/gvcs-machine-index/ https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/gvcs-machine-index/ Even though many of these are marked as "in planning," my aspiration to have a farm now includes building it with open source machines.
- NortySpock 6y agoYeah, OpenSourceEcology has been around a while, but it's really just a handful of devices that are fully built and in use: the "power cube engine", "tractor" (really a skid-steer loader) and the compressed earth brick-maker are complete and have working prototypes. https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/ https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/ Hopefully they get some more funding or someone else takes up the torch. Even then, these are generalist machines; I don't know how far they scale up.
- hobofan 6y agoDidn't they have quite some funding for at least some time? As you said, they've been around for a long time (almost 20 years now) and for that their output isn't really that great. I'm not sure about the exact reason, but I've always had the feeling that the people working on the projects had little prior engineering experience and were progressing via slow trial and error. I'm wondering if possibly a Youtube channel with an experienced engineer in charge and Patreon support wouldn't be a better backdrop for such a project. Something like Kliemannsland (German Youtube channel that runs their own compound) meets Stuff Made Here.
- imtringued 6y agoOpen Source Induction Furnace, Press forge, Bioplastic extruder? Really? These are extremely specific machines. A lot of them in the $100k range. Nobody is going to make an opensource design for them. My biggest disappointment though is that their 3D printer isn't complete yet even though that's low hanging fruit. Simply modifying an existing design would have satisfied me but nope. They don't even have a 3D printer design.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- random5634 6y ago1) Are farmers really unable to repair their tractors? I know the Deere has a major repair network and their PowerGuard plans - you can do relatively comprehensive coverage for 5 years or so I think with a $100 deductible. 2) Don't they sell original, reman and alternative parts? https://www.deere.com/en/parts-and-service/parts/ https://www.deere.com/en/parts-and-service/parts/ 3) Don't they have a major dealer network - 3,000 dealers in the US alone? At least where I am there is a ridiculous number of deere dealers. Is the complaint that farmers cannot fix things themselves vs not get repaired at all? 4) Isn't a lot of this hacking around getting features you didn't pay for - license key gen stuff and getting around speed limiters etc? I'm not sure I count that as "repair" though I know it's super annoying and everyone wants to turn off stuff, turn off features. Same thing with DPEF deletes and bypasses on diesel equip in US (also rampant) and a lot of the tuning. Plenty of folks "hack" their equip with a tune or to do a DPEF delete, then submit a warranty claim (at least in cars) when they burn something up. But major demand is not around repairs, a lot of the black market demand is around this other stuff. 5) The integrated combine stuff is not simple software, there def is a major investment in the tech stack for some "farms". I might call it ag engineering now? 3 cm accuracy season to season, active yield management (ie, monitors how settings affect yield, can map yield, tweak settings etc etc).
- call_me_dana 6y agoFor future reference, you are supposed to paste only the response, in your own words to the individual topic or question from the talking points we provide you. Not the entire set of forum talking points all at once! Please talk to your supervisor at once to re-evaluate your career goals at the company. Sincerely, Kathy J. Strubbins Director, Marketing John Deere Corporation
- random5634 6y agoUh?
- Zhenya 6y agoYou're being called a JD shill / astroturfer
- syntaxing 6y agoI always wondered about this, are there any laws preventing repairs with 3D scanner + machining your own parts/selling such parts?
- aksss 6y agoI think the issue is more that parts without correct encoded keys are not accepted by system, and in fact purposefully cause a “lock” of the system. Kind of like when your HP printer warns you that your printer cartridge isn’t name brand, but worse. Also, the issue of voiding your warranty by using non-certified parts and repair centers.
- mr_overalls 6y agoAt least several years ago, the cracked John Deere firmware was done by Ukrainian hackers. This seems like a serious vulnerability for supply-side attacks. High-end tractors have been driving autonomously for years, with precise GPS, multiple cameras, Internet connections, etc. It's not unthinkable that hostile nation-state actors could hack the firmware to simply direct a 25-ton combine to leave the field and drive through the nearest population center (or high-voltage transmission line, oil storage tank, etc.)
- the-dude 6y agoYou are joking, right?
- jandrese 6y agoThe 5kph vehicle of terror!! Very slowly menacing the population! It's like those bad monster movies where the people just stand their screaming while guy in the heavy and clunky rubber suit slowly waddles towards them. Hacking something like a Tesla would probably be better. At least then you can maximize the V in your E=1/2mv^2 calculation.
- anticensor 6y agoCombine harvesters can travel up to 40km/h when the harvesting mill is not operating.
- Daho0n 6y agoThen they are just a slow truck. Hacking a truck would then be a more effective route.
- LinuxBender 6y agoI need to find you some pictures of this. It happened, but with an angry human in Vermont. Flattened a bunch of police cars. Here are some [1] but I know there were more [2][3]. Trying to find the pictures of the cops laughing. Well, those pictures are gone, but you can see most of the story. [1] - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vermont-man-uses-tractor-flatten-8-police-cars-flna921702 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vermont-man-uses-tracto... [2] - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2182958/Police-Vt-farmer-crushed-cop-cars-tractor-revenge-drug-arrest.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2182958/Police-Vt-f... [3] - https://motleynews.net/2012/08/03/lmao-vermont-man-upset-over-mj-arrest-uses-tractor-to-crush-7-police-cars/ https://motleynews.net/2012/08/03/lmao-vermont-man-upset-ove...
- throwawaysea 6y agoWhat are all the components of common farm equipment? Is there a list like internal combustion engines, hydraulics, steel frames, axles, etc? I’d be curious if we can match each component to an open source solution or some method of manufacturing it independently at small scale.
- Pfhreak 6y agoIt's a lot more than that. Yes, a combine or tractor has the things you mention, but they also have complex power steering, computerized control mechanisms for delivering seeds or fertilizer on a per nozzle basis based on yield patterns from previous years, GPS systems, control systems for leveling the vehicle on hills, sensors and measurement systems to control the operation of the engine and evaluate yields, complex differentials to address different stresses on the tractor as it pulls up or downhill or pulls different loads, not to mention all the complexity of threshing and separating grains inside a combine. These machines are insanely complex these days.
- evancox100 6y agoI feel like the solution here should be simple: more options for farmers to buy from different companies, if there aren't enough already. If Deere is being sneaky about repair/maintenance costs in the back end that can also be handled via existing laws/regulations on consumer protection, false marketing, etc.(though of course the fines are almost always never high enough). Maybe there's are some transparency regulations that could be put in to place to make it very clear the nature of the transaction people are getting in to when they buy/lease such equipment. (Like how airlines have to show the ~total price of the ticket up front.) Disclosure: used to work in a group that made the chips that would do the locking down in applications like this.
- throwaway0a5e 6y agoBetween safety standards, emissions standards, and all sorts of other requirements that apply to heavy machinery in the US there are plenty of options for the domestic manufacturers to sneak in a little good ol' regulatory capture masquerading as something else.
- 1-6 6y agoFrom printers to coffeemakers to tractors. Companies are going to keep right-to-repair off limits to crowdsourcing hackers and mechanics. Voiding Warranties and Certifications used to be for that purpose. This is an old practice which needs to end.
- peter303 6y agoA growing issue with cars too. Manufacturer liability is probably voided if you do your own software or hardware repairs.
- Daho0n 6y agoIt is illegal in the EU to change or remove warranty because of which shop services your car. I do my own service from time to time and warranty is still there. If there's a five year warranty it is 5 years no matter if it is serviced by Audi or Aldo's Auto. Access to diagnostic ports and tools/software is also covered. The only thing an authorized dealer can possibly give you is in case of failure after warranty has run out where they might extend it if you were a customer. Anything else is illegal and strictly enforced. Been there, won the case.
- aksss 6y agoYou mention Audi vs Aldo’s, but does the same apply if you do the work yourself (i.e. non-professional operation)?
- jsmith45 6y agoSure. In the US a warranty on any consumer product does not allow voiding or canceling a warranty due to third party parts or service, unless that same service was available at no ocst from the manufacturer. This applies to not just normal periodic maintance/replaceable parts, but repairs after accidents, cosmetic upgrades, whatever. So no, Apple cannot refuse to provide warranty replacement on your defective battery if you previously had the screen replaced with a third party after dropping it, since Apple does not provide free screens for negligance. Of course, if Apple can show that this replacement screen or its installation process is likely the cause of the battery not working, they can refuse to cover fixing the battery under warranty. The problem here is that John Deere will claim that your bypassing their softwareware protections means you were running the tractor outside its design parameters, and that is why your transmission broke, not because it was defective or originally installed incorrectly by them. To force them to reimburse you for failing to cover this under warranty you would need to convince the jury that it is more likely that the damage was from a defect or John Deere's incorrect installation than it was from side effect of you bypassing john Deere's software. Yeah, it could be rather tricky to convince them of that. Especially since you would already have had to pay for repairs, which likely means you don't have enough to pay for the lawsuit. (John Deere would need to reimburse your legal costs if you win the suit, but most of your time, aggravation and hassle is not reimbursable, and you need to be able to front the needed money in the first place).
- nbar 6y agoI often wonder in some markets if there isn’t an opportunity for a Leica M6 approach. Here is a well built analog object that should last generations. Perhaps the analogy fails when you think about the supporting characters, film development, tractor parts, but it does seem a market luddites version of “x” exists.
- m463 6y agoI've wondered about this. I have a friend with an old tractor, and it's a marvel of simplicity. You could literally fix most problems yourself. At some point you do need someone else's technology tree (like an engine case). And at that point, I think computers can simplify things. There are all kinds of things that work better if you have a wire and a solenoid, as opposed to a mechanical linkage, or a bundle of individual wires or a vacuum line.
- yawnxyz 6y agoOh, if y'all have never checked out Farm Hack (https://farmhack.org/tools https://farmhack.org/tools) it's pretty neat. It's a community site for farmers to hack together various random tools (including tech-based tools like a Drupal-powered system for farm management) for their farm. I don't run a farm or anything, I just think it's neat.
- Wistar 6y agoA bit of an aside: An article on Ag Web about a farmer with 7,000 acres, and who has limited his tractor fleet to only old, but re-vamped, tractors for which he has assembled his own maintenance team. "Misfit Tractors a Money Saver for Arkansas Farmer" "Reed estimates a modern tractor depreciates at approximately $85 per hour." https://www.agweb.com/news/misfit-tractors-money-saver-arkansas-farmer https://www.agweb.com/news/misfit-tractors-money-saver-arkan...
- Plestor 6y agoSorry, but this is REALLY old news... Like 10 years old.
- minikites 6y agoIt astonishes me how many people still believe in unregulated markets when stories like this are on the front page of HN daily. Is there any amount of evidence that would convince people who still believe they are efficient or useful?
- aksss 6y agoOften this is a case of the right kind of regulation vs the wrong kind of regulation, as opposed to a some-vs-none argument. Few people are absolutist but many err towards none because they don’t trust politicians to understand what regulation hurts vs helps. A lot of regulation is rationalized as to “save the children” but conveniently creates grand benefits for established players. It’s not crazy to be default skeptical with the plenitude of examples.
- dreamcompiler 6y agoThere's a joke among farmers who have long painful experience with John Deere equipment: "You can buy better but you can't pay more." People in the Midwest whose livelihoods are tied to the Deere Corporation hate that joke.
- pabs3 6y agoI wonder if anyone is making open source software for tractors yet?
- RickJWagner 6y agoI was raised in the midwest, farmers all around me. Part of the farming life has always been resourcefully fixing stuff. (Hence the phrase "Held together with duct tape and baling wire." Baling wire refers to hay bales.) Nothing new here.