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A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption

• k__ 6y ago
  Why shouldn't they compare it to meat? If I am asked to replace meat with plants, these plants have to compete with meat.
  • Already__Taken 6y ago
    I've had a few of kinds of these burgers and honestly they're really nailing it with meat as a description.
    • drivingmenuts 6y ago
      Except for lying about it being meat. That definition should be reserved for animal-based protein.
      • hamax 6y ago
        Why do you want to change the definition of the word meat?
      • n4r9 6y ago
        Do you think people are fooled into thinking that it's animal protein?
      • Judgmentality 6y ago
        I don't get this at all. Why? So long as it's labeled appropriately (ingredients, possibly some disclaimer if required but I think that would be absurd) why not call it whatever we want? Meat is already a somewhat ambiguous term in English, so giving it legal protection seems odd to me. Personally I think we shouldn't sell juice that's from concentrate as 100% juice, but I can easily find out by reading the ingredients so I don't care. And for those who don't already specifically buy juice that isn't from concentrate, enjoy discovering that almost all juice is from concentrate (and hopefully realize how much better it tastes when it's not). It's like ice cream that's been melted and refrozen. It may have the same ingredients but it doesn't have the same taste.
        • drivingmenuts 6y ago
          Juice from concentrate is still the juice of its original source - no one is taking the juice of an orange and calling it apple juice. The water has been removed somewhat for ease of storage and packaging and probably also as a side-effect of pasteurization. While we do informally refer to the edible portion of certain vegetables as meat, that is absolutely not the same thing as meat from animal sources and I doubt there are few who would confuse that in an informal setting. But do the plant-based meat replacements contain enough material from those same “meaty” vegetable sources to justify calling them meat more formally in the same manner that we would call animal protein meat? Given that food is one of the things we have to have to survive, along with air and water, it seems disingenuous to argue that manufacturers and marketers should be able to so blatantly lie about the source materials of that food. Using a formal term, other than meat, would help to reduce confusion about the source material and set it apart from animal proteins, allowing the consumer to make a more informed choice.
          • n4r9 6y ago
            > Using a formal term, other than meat, would help to reduce confusion about the source material Is there significant consumer confusion over this, though?
      • throwaway2245 6y ago
        I'm concerned if you're buying any product that's just labelled "meat" without further clarification. That doesn't sound good for you.
    • k__ 6y ago
      Yes, I had a bunch of these new groundmeat replacements from different companies, and they were quite good.
    • redisman 6y ago
      Impossible is great in burgers, pretty much can’t tell a difference. Beyond I don’t like as much, something about it being a bit soft and veggie tasting
• henrikschroder 6y ago
  > I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. I think you are completely wrong. People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great about meat (taste, texture, proteins), while removing everything that's bad about meat (slaughter, livestock industry). And that is exactly what this new generation of plant-based alternatives are focusing on, and given their popularity compared to earlier attempts, I think they're on the right track. Quick question: Are you yourself a vegetarian or vegan?
  • tashoecraft 6y ago
    Agreed. So many non vegetarian/vegan people say stuff like this and it’s just wrong. Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”. It’s just people completely missing the point. If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of product. The high high majority of meat consumption is not high quality product, but the absolutely lowest quality possible. It’s so easy to swap out they meh hamburger patty you have at a bbq with a plant based one, be healthier, and have less impact on the environment.
    • drukenemo 6y ago
      Plant-based food aimed at replacing meat is often a too-many ingredient, industrialised nightmare.
      • henrikschroder 6y ago
        ...unlike the animal industry which is just full of fluffy, happy, loved cows who proudly line themselves up to be turned into tasty beef for your pleasure... Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Getting rid of that would be an enormous net win, both ethical and environmental.
• slicktux 6y ago
  If it’s a patty made with black beans then you will see descriptions such as plant based patty but if it’s a beyond burger then you’ll see descriptions like plant based meat; see if they are trying to make it look like meat and taste like meat then the description is applicable. A common stigma with vegan or vegetarian diets is that of the food not being as good or limited and having something that compares to meat is a plus because it brings light to the endless possibilities in food and texture that a vegan diet without animal meat really has...
• hamax 6y ago
  Definition of meat by merriam-webster: a: FOOD especially : solid food as distinguished from drink b: the edible part of something as distinguished from its covering (such as a husk or shell) The same as with milk. Nobody had problems with coconut milk until dairy lobby started fearing plant milk competition. And when one buys oat yogurt they know exactly what they'll get and what to compare it with. Or do you think fat free or lactose free cow milk yogurt shouldn't be called as such, since it's its own thing? How we name things is important and naming things by their appearance and function is completely fine and useful and has been done since ever. Things like turkey ham or turkey bacon aren't new inventions.
  • secondcoming 6y ago
    Upvote this comment if you've ever encountered a native english speaker use the word 'meat' to be a synonym of 'solid food'. Option Base 1 I would like to see when Merriam Webster added this obscure definition, let alone have it listed first.
    • Grustaf 6y ago
      You do use it in a more general sense in some contexts, but I completely agree with your point.
    • hamax 6y ago
      Sigh... This is THE original definition. Language later evolved and people started using the word meat to mostly mean animal flash. But that's just proof that language evolves over time and now it's evolving again to include broader range of food. But in any case, I'm sure you've heard of meat of a fruit or nut.
      • secondcoming 6y ago
        Yes I have, but it's normally obvious from the context that a fruit or nut is being referred to, usually by qualifing the workd with either 'fruit' or 'nut', or the person holding either. If someone asked me to buy some meat and I returned with a few apples I'd receive a Merriam-Webster dictionary to the head!
• Animats 6y ago
  I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. The US meat industry is fighting that battle.[1] So far, they're not winning. In the EU, dirt farmers have been able to prevent the use of the term "organic" for hydroponic farms, though. We can live up to great flavors vegetables, fruits, and herbs. There's a bright future ahead for new classes of junk foods. Plant-based bacon flavored chips, coming soon to a convenience store near you. [1] https://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Article/2021/02/03/Highly-disingenuous-Plant-based-labeling-battle-heats-up-as-more-states-challenge-use-of-meat-dairy-terms https://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Article/2021/02/03/Highly-...
  • MauranKilom 6y ago
    > Plant-based bacon flavored chips, coming soon to a convenience store near you. I'm probably misunderstanding something, but my potato chips have hopefully always been plant-based (even if bacon-flavored - no idea if that requires animal ingredients)?
• curiousllama 6y ago
  The place you’re right is in the “slab of meat” category: the only thing that’ll replace steak is lab-grown meat, and then only partially. And I agree that, eg bean burgers do well to market themselves as different. It’s a legit point. But this new fake meat stuff reduced my meat intake significantly. It’s is FANTASTIC for replacing low-quality meat in a lot of cases. I have no need for ground beef/turkey/pork if I have beyond meat ground “beef” in a lot of cases. It’s a straight substitute, and I wouldn’t have thought about it that way if it was posed more narrowly.
  • Tade0 6y ago
    I remember trying a Beyond Burger for the first time. Overall impression was that had some fastfood chains replaced their patties with this, not only nobody would notice that what they're eating isn't actually meat, but also they would be happy with how the quality improved. There's of course the question of price, but I'm sure with adequate scale it can be brought down.
    • eloff 6y ago
      They're surprisingly good. If it wasn't more expensive than meat I would have it more often. I'm not going to pay more for lower quality protein (from a body building perspective).
    • philliphaydon 6y ago
      I’m not sure “nobody” would notice. I’ve had impossible meat burger and beyond meat burger. The beyond meat was disgusting. It wasn’t even slightly convincing. Impossible was more convincing texture wise but taste wise it makes you look at what you’re eating cos it’s like “huh it feels like meat but doesn’t taste like it...”
      • chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        In my experience, how they're prepared matters a lot. Strangely, I think Impossible Burgers (the ones I'm more familiar with) do worse when they're overcooked than actual meat does. The very first Impossible Burger I ever had was thick and cooked medium-rare, and it was terrific, pink on the inside and genuinely juicy. If I didn't know it was plant-based meat, I wouldn't have been able to tell you; it didn't taste quite like beef, but I might have guessed there was a little sausage or something else mixed in there. When I've had Impossible Burgers cooked fully through so they're more medium-well or above, though, the pea/grain flavor starts amping up quickly.
• Someone1234 6y ago
  If it says plant-based meat, I am going to try it since it aims to simulate a taste/texture I know I like. If it says "vegetarian" I assume it will taste bad, because historically that has been the case. That's an anecdote, but I don't think I am an edge case, many people have tried an Impossible Burger who had little to no interest in trying a vegetarian burger.
  • asdff 6y ago
    Some of my favorite food is vegetarian. None of it is in burger form though: paneer curry, falafel, tofu, beans, etc. I think this imitating meat thing kinda swings and whiffs; they could have gone down any delicious not meat tasting route and put it into easy to prepare burger form and ground chuck, but opted to just make something vaguely reminiscent of meat instead. I mean, why isn't there any falafel fast food (outside the guys selling out of carts in front of bars), just a crispy delicious falafel patty on a burger bun and fixings? Some of the most delicious vegetarian food there is stays siloed into ethnic restaurants that the median American either lacks access to get it or interest to try it. Funny that we have to resort to baiting and switching your big mac instead to get some to try vegetarian food.
• 867-5309 6y ago
  not only this, but to turn plants into "meat" you end up with horrible processed vegetables with added oils, sugars and unnatural flavourings. most of which are then breadcrumbed in bleached flour and deep fried. by this point, the thing that might once have been a plant is now as bad as meat, if not worse, and resembles a dog turd in taste and health benefits
  • Grustaf 6y ago
    Yeah I agree. There’s delicious vegetarian dishes, with low processed ingredients. Why bother with ultra processed fake meat?
    • tjr225 6y ago
      Its pretty intuitive, actually: people like burgers- even vegetarians or those trying to reduce their meat consumption.
      • Grustaf 6y ago
        I think that varies from person to person. People from largely vegetarian cultures probably don’t crave vegetarian hamburgers. And not all people from meat cultures do either. When I was vegetarian for a few years I simply ate vegetarian dishes. It probably depends on why you became vegetarian in the first place.
        • tjr225 6y ago
          You’re not wrong but it’s beside the point. You don’t not make something because some people don’t want it.
          • Grustaf 6y ago
            I have no doubt they will be able to sell this to millions, I’m just saying that it’s a silly way to approach vegetarianism.
• Shivetya 6y ago
  Going to figure if the EU track record with soy/almond and other "milks" I would expect a challenge to force the issue there. [0]. However as you note, would it be a bad thing if they could not or would not reference it as meat? I think the main reason for assigning the name to these plant based substitutes is to give the public a better understand of it uses and that its a valid substitute. To me, both meat and milk are generic names and its just a matter of time before expanding the definition becomes a non issue [0]https://www.ecowatch.com/eu-vegan-dairy-law-2650162992.html https://www.ecowatch.com/eu-vegan-dairy-law-2650162992.html
• seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  From what I’ve read, plant-based meat isn’t much healthier than normal meat, it’s benefits are primarily environmental and ethical. True plant-based food should have a health benefit at least, especially over meat.
  • M2Ys4U 6y ago
    >True plant-based food should have a health benefit at least, especially over meat. Why?
    • seanmcdirmid 6y ago
      That’s a good question I guess. Vegetarian food doesn’t have to be healthy, it just generally is in the west.
• Thinkx220 6y ago
  Literally the entire reason these products exist is to be a replacement for meat. A replacement should be as good as the thing it is replacing.
• gherkinnn 6y ago
  I agree. As a meat eater, these recreations are a joke. They can just about compete with chicken nuggets. I don’t like nuggets. So I’ve come to regard them as inedible. Same goes for vegan “cheese”. Bleurgh. And the thing is, I love falafel. There’s bound to be plenty more plant-based patty things. Veggie dishes that don’t pretend to be something they’re not are delicious. Give me baked onions, baba ghanoush, and celery all day.
  • omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
    It could be. I eat meat, and my guess is that manufacturers label things as "meat", "milk", and so on, is to imply they can be used as replacements for those in certain circumstances. I can also see why some people wouldn't like them. Take almond milk. To me, it's pretty good as a milk replacement in most cereal, but there are some where it kinda tastes off and dairy milk tastes great. I imagine veggie meat is similar. YMMV of course.
  • esperent 6y ago
    > As a meat eater, these recreations are a joke. Also a meat eater, and the impossible burger is great - certainly way better than many cheap meat burgers I've eaten. Not as good as a premium or homemade burger though, I agree. However, it's early days. These products have only just started to be made in the last couple of years. It's hardly surprising they are not yet perfect.
• jrochkind1 6y ago
  I started trying to google for research on this, but didn't find much. But I'm pretty sure you're wrong -- I doubt that these companies would be selling these premium meat-replacement products with the word meat if they didn't have lots of market research on it. It tells you what you can use the things for -- the impossible and beyond products can be used to replace ground beef in pretty much any recipe, and will do the job. People can use it immediately with the recipes and cooking techniques they are familiar with, it makes the product comfortable and familiar instead of a new thing that requires them to adjust their palettes and learn new cooking techniques. I think you're right that someone who has committed to a meat-free diet doesn't want or need the label meat. (but they'll buy the stuff anyway if they like it and can afford it, they are kind of a captive market). But when you say "meat consumption reduction" -- if every meat eater replaces say 20% of their meat consumption with this stuff, it would be a gigantic reduction in animals killed (for those who care about that). Assuming there is less greenhouse gas and other ecological damage from these meat replacements, a gigantic reduction in that too. I dont think you can lump together committed vegetarians with ominivores who may replace a portion of their consumption with these products. Perhaps an ever-increasing portion, perhaps eventually they will become vegetarians. But calling the non-animal-based stuff "meat" is squarely aimed at current omnivores -- and it seems hard to argue that it won't work when it is literally working, as the OP outlines in talking about market share and grocery space. Burger king is selling impossible burgers because they can sell them as burgers; and if they tried instead introducing some new product that isn't meant to resemble a beef burger but is just some kind of "vegetarian food", I guarantee it would sell less not more.
• mellow-lake-day 6y ago
  The reason that I will be buying plant-based meat things is because they smell, look, and taste like meat. >We can live up to great flavors vegetables, fruits, and herbs. But that's a whole thing altogether. That's like completely missing the point. You aren't going to get meat eaters to switch to plant-based meat patties if they taste like vegetables or fruits.
• scythe 6y ago
  >If we could be honest and declare them what they are, plant-based patties The problem, really, is to increase the textural variety of plant-based proteins. Currently you have bean products on a spectrum from soft tofu to faux-chorizo, which taste essentially like beans at varying levels of chewiness. (Generally, the two ends of this spectrum are my favorites.) The interest in meats depends at least somewhat on there being a variety of textures (fish, chicken, pulled pork, ground beef); producing just one texture only gets you so far. A reasonably cheap plant-based mimic of bone broth, Greek yogurt, egg white (protein-based), or parmesan cheese could probably have as much impact as a single meat substiute. A few of these have been made with starches (aquafaba for eggs; various gums for yogurt), but not proteins.
• Spooky23 6y ago
  We have vegetables. Why would someone choose to eat some mix of pea protein and coconut oil if not to replace meat or make a political statement?
• WiseWeasel 6y ago
  I say we start calling it phyte, since it sounds a bit better than pleat. Translates better too. Could even pronounce it like it rhymes with “meat”.
• musicale 6y ago
  > I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat" [is] a terrible idea Nutmeats will now be known as nutguts.
• Strilanc 6y ago
  I used to say this. My experience of substitute meat was basically "What the, why does this cafeteria burger taste like garbage? Dammit, I grabbed the fake tofu one by accident.". The key recent difference, for me, is that this experience doesn't happen with the new veggie burgers (like the beyond burger). They just taste like a decent burger. You can prepare them in the same way as a meat burger. You can store them in the same was as a meat burger. They are a decent burger substitute.
• davchana 6y ago
  Agree. I have never had beef or any meat egg in my life. My coworker, american, suggested me that the new restaurant in town as Almost Meat burger, made of soy, but texture/taste almost like beef. I love soy, tofu, cheese, but I do not want to taste or feel the texture of any meat. So I don't think I will ever be eating anything which resembles meat, taste/content/texture wise.
• lscotte 6y ago
  Absolutely. Meat comes from animals. Period. This is not meat. Call it what it is - textured vegetable protein or whatever it is. I wouldn't call a hotdog a carrot, it's no different.
• princevegeta89 6y ago
  Well, the term "meat" is what clicks and pull most of the customers towards these products. I would say the marketing people have done a good job keeping that name. On the other hand, however, I think that keeping things like "chicken", "beef", etc in the names is what is confusing and misleading. I'm a vegetarian but everytime I pickup plant meat and see the words "chicken", etc. on the labels, I freak out.
• jerry1979 6y ago
  As someone who got forced into a vegan diet for health reasons, I really appreciate fake meat and I'm stoked on fake hamburgers and hotdogs and whatever. They famously have a reputation for mystery ingredients anyway. Nobody gives a fuck.
• odessacubbage 6y ago
  the best veggie burgers are the ones that don't try to imitate meat. my local burger place does a falafel burger that i'd honestly take over beef pretty much any day of the week.
• ianai 6y ago
  Agreed. I described benevolent bacon to someone as “you’re not going to eat it and think “oh wow I just ate bacon” but you will think “oh wow who needs bacon?””
• lhorie 6y ago
  I agree. Back when I was young, my mom was talking to a friend about food and tofu came up. They had never heard of it and asked what it was like. My mom said it was kinda like cheese. Fast forward to the next time the friend was over, and they related that they had tried buying some tofu and hated it. Why? Because they figured to try to use it like they use cheese, and tried to put slices of tofu in a sandwich... Can you imagine trying to market tofu as a cottage cheese alternative? In hindsight, it makes way more sense to market tofu as its own thing, and there's a lot of dishes that only work with tofu. After I got married, my chinese wife related some of her experience with food growing up. In China, they have these veggie cakes that are somewhat similar in texture and seasoning to meatballs, but no one was ever under any impression that they were anything but veggie cakes. They are not marketed as meatballs, nobody thinks of them as meatballs, and yet they are still great. This idea of trying to market veggie patties as something they are not is very puzzling. It's also a bit sad that it feels like BigFood is trying to tell westerners that they shouldn't get creative with culinary. "Burgers are all you need" is what the messaging sounds like.
  • singhrac 6y ago
    My disagreement with your comment is based on the words “veggie patties”, which I don’t think really capture what’s going on with “fake meat”. These are not boca burgers, mushroom burgers, or black bean burger (which I eat a lot of), but something that actually (afaict) tastes like meat.
    • lhorie 6y ago
      I think there's definitely a gradient in terms of how "meat"-like veggie patties can be. What I take issue with is that instead of offering products for what they are and letting people build their culture around them, it feels like the food industry is essentially operating in tunnel-vision mode and perpetuating what IMHO is a pretty mediocre culinary culture. So while you may get spicy veggie cake hotpots elsewhere in the world, in the US you get... air quotes burgers? To really understand what I mean, it would likely be eye opening to see what american fast food chains look like in Asia: they have an insane amount of variety that makes their counterparts in the US look like bad jokes. It took ages for McD to wake up to breakfast culture, and likewise for Lays to pick up on mexicans' taste for spicy snacks and now these are huge segments for them. I'm still dumbfounded that food company execs don't see the lost opportunity of not introducing more variety rather than trying to make everything conform to pre-establish molds.
• hansvm 6y ago
  It seems like an easy, quick win for people who aren't strongly inclined to fully transition to a vegetarian diet. I've replaced ground beef with vegan meat crumbles in all my recipes, and it _just works_. I brown them at a little lower temperature, I pay a little more for the crumbles, and otherwise I can completely replace that portion of my meat consumption with other materials. Vegetarian patties, mushroom-based recipes, etc can be good and stand up on their own without comparing them to meat, but meat substitutes are good too.
• onethought 6y ago
  Almond and Oat “milk” industry would disagree with you. They completely disrupted the milk industry by getting away with being a “milk” even though they are not. I think if Fake meats aren’t classified as meat they wont get the mind share required to shift people’s habits.
• deleted 6y ago
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• User23 6y ago
  All meat is plant-based as anyone that understands basic ecology knows.
• nicolas_t 6y ago
  That's one of my pet peeves. I wish I could find good vegetarian restaurants that don't use any of the plant based meat ersatz. There's so much that can be done with vegetarian food, fake meat limits the creativity and is a lazy way to cooking. It leads to a rise of restaurants making mediocre food using plant based fake meat that is a pale comparison to the original. So far my favorite restaurant experience ever was going to Fu He Hui in Shanghai. It's a michelin star vegetarian restaurant, there was no fake meat, but it was extremely flavorful and I keep wishing I could go back.