4 ms·

Do you live in an area with high homeless rates? As in, "there's a homeless camp of tents consuming multiple city blocks"-level of homelessness? It's horrible

Do you live in an area with high homeless rates? As in, "there's a homeless camp of tents consuming multiple city blocks"-level of homelessness? It's horrible for everyone in the city--most of all for the homeless. These people suffer from mental health or drug issues and need help. The status quo of "leave them to fend for themselves" is simply an unacceptable outcome. The system launched by the DPD may not be perfect, but it's a whole lot better than what existed before. It's a huge step in the right direction.

imperio59 6y ago
In my observation a lot of the homeless in the camps with mental health issues are on medication or have been through mental health facilities several times and it just made things worse for them Source: working on the streets of Seattle a couple years ago every weekend.
- mjevans 6y ago
  My own belief is that there isn't a single simple issue, but rather a web of many simple things that have complex interactions. Nearly all of those are political issues though. Technology can help with better communications and tools for debunking falsehoods in those communications. It might also eventually help with strong AI that's smarter and better than humans at offering a set of solutions and then letting people debate the ones that we agree are also emotionally the correct answers.
zapzupnz 6y ago
People need to remember that perfection is the enemy. Better to step forward in the right direction now than be paralysed by the fear it will never come to pass — obviously, the latter is a self fulfilling prophecy.
- throwaway9980 6y ago
  I’m starting to feel like this perfect or nothing attitude is a massive amplifier of the problems we’re facing. “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.” We’re way out of balance. Lot’s of courage, less wisdom, no serenity.
- techsupporter 6y ago
  > People need to remember that perfection is the enemy. Yeah I'm getting real sick of the stance that if something only fixes 80% of a problem and doesn't perfectly resolve every issue every person might ever encounter, it is a failure and should never be implemented. If it is not causing more harm, and especially if there is a way to address unforeseen harm that might arise, awesome! Let's give it a go. Because sending armed officers out to deal with any little thing that happens is demonstrably not working well right now.
  - tracerbulletx 6y ago
    Yeah, there seems to be a real sense that we are scared to try anything or do anything anymore and an army of people ready to bite off the head of anyone who does.
    - random5634 6y ago
      A lot of interventions have "disparate impact" - we had that locally - so a big outcry. So yeah, "trying things" can be somewhat high risk. I think some police departments are trying to be proactive by reducing overall contacts (ie, don't pull folks over for things like missing plates / bad registrations etc, delay or avoid responding to certain other erratic behavior type calls).
  - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
    It has a name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy and it seems to be surprisingly common among developers.
    - specialist 6y ago
      TIL. Thanks. I really want this phenomenon explained. Slippery slope fallacies, concern trolling, whataboutism, pearl clutching, feinting spells, Copenhagen Effect (blame anyone who tries to help for the original problem), Alistair Cockburn's wisdom about organizational change (tldr: people really, really hate change, of any kind, for any reason). Ad nauseatingum. It's exhausting.
lettergram 6y ago
> It's horrible for everyone in the city--most of all for the homeless. Have you worked with the homeless? Yes there is a lot of mental illness, but there is a large number of people who choose to live this way.
- door100 6y ago
  That's a rather bold assertion -- can you cite any statistics or surveys? In some limited sense, they may "choose" homelessness over poor shelter conditions or unaffordable housing, but that can hardly be considered a choice.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >Have you worked with the homeless? Yes there is a lot of mental illness, but there is a large number of people who choose to live this way. Having been homeless myself many years ago, I can tell you from experience that not having money to pay rent or anyone to take you in is the reason people "choose" to be homeless. And once you are homeless, it's very difficult to work yourself out of it, for many reasons. I assume you haven't considered that it's very hard to keep (or even get) a job if you have no place to bathe or store your stuff while you're working.
  - lettergram 6y ago
    I've worked in shelters and offered people food and a place to get cleaned up and they decline. I grant you many are not like this and perhaps you're more knowledgable with your first hand experience. I know I personally, also from trying to offer people shelters or even free room-and-board, they don't take it. I don't know why in all cases, but many wanted to do things "their own way". I find it commendable and I respect those who choose to refuse handouts. That's my point, they may not choose to be in that situation. However, forcefully detaining them for "mental illness" for not wanting "assistance" is a different discussion.
    - nobody9999 6y ago
      >That's my point, they may not choose to be in that situation. However, forcefully detaining them for "mental illness" for not wanting "assistance" is a different discussion. Who suggested that anyone was doing that?
ogre_codes 6y ago
There is a lot of evidence that housing the homeless is not only more humane, it's also smart economics. By the time you sum up all the costs of homelessness, it's a pretty nasty toll. The biggest actual expense is the massive medical bills from exposure and neglect. Police and ambulance services are likely a close second, chasing around town and dealing with random mentally ill people in dire straits. The other costs are less obvious. As homeless clutter your public spaces, your city starts to rot. Parks become open areas of blight as the homeless overwhelm them and destroy the services they offer. This means much of the money your city invests in parks and public spaces ends up going to waste. Unless you spend more money on police. The final big expense is clean up and sanitation... unless your city doesn't clean up after homeless people in which case you just end up with actual shit in alleys on big piles of garbage on street corners. Putting up housing isn't a perfect solution, but it certainly eliminates some significant parts of that.
- specialist 6y ago
  Universal housing like SLC is doing is cheaper, more humane, and lightyears more effective. Policy wise, proactive beats reactive, prevention beats treatment. -- PS- I just cleaned up after an encampment. After the city cleaned. 20 used needles (mostly insulin) and dozens of other sharps, human waste, soiled diapers, everything else you can imagine. I'm just so pissed off. No one should have to live like that. Just put people in homes. Safe, clean, access to services. Even triage with microhouses along with honeybuckets and potable water would be better.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > Universal housing like SLC is doing is cheaper, more humane, and lightyears more effective. I read about that program and it sounds amazing. Decent public housing is pretty common in Europe as well. I forgot to mention one major cost savings for a city. It is much easier for someone housed to get a job and recover financially than a homeless person.

imperio59 6y ago

In my observation a lot of the homeless in the camps with mental health issues are on medication or have been through mental health facilities several times and it just made things worse for them Source: working on the streets of Seattle a couple years ago every weekend.

mjevans 6y ago
My own belief is that there isn't a single simple issue, but rather a web of many simple things that have complex interactions. Nearly all of those are political issues though. Technology can help with better communications and tools for debunking falsehoods in those communications. It might also eventually help with strong AI that's smarter and better than humans at offering a set of solutions and then letting people debate the ones that we agree are also emotionally the correct answers.

zapzupnz 6y ago

People need to remember that perfection is the enemy. Better to step forward in the right direction now than be paralysed by the fear it will never come to pass — obviously, the latter is a self fulfilling prophecy.

throwaway9980 6y ago
I’m starting to feel like this perfect or nothing attitude is a massive amplifier of the problems we’re facing. “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.” We’re way out of balance. Lot’s of courage, less wisdom, no serenity.
techsupporter 6y ago
> People need to remember that perfection is the enemy. Yeah I'm getting real sick of the stance that if something only fixes 80% of a problem and doesn't perfectly resolve every issue every person might ever encounter, it is a failure and should never be implemented. If it is not causing more harm, and especially if there is a way to address unforeseen harm that might arise, awesome! Let's give it a go. Because sending armed officers out to deal with any little thing that happens is demonstrably not working well right now.
- tracerbulletx 6y ago
  Yeah, there seems to be a real sense that we are scared to try anything or do anything anymore and an army of people ready to bite off the head of anyone who does.
  - random5634 6y ago
    A lot of interventions have "disparate impact" - we had that locally - so a big outcry. So yeah, "trying things" can be somewhat high risk. I think some police departments are trying to be proactive by reducing overall contacts (ie, don't pull folks over for things like missing plates / bad registrations etc, delay or avoid responding to certain other erratic behavior type calls).
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago
  It has a name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy and it seems to be surprisingly common among developers.
  - specialist 6y ago
    TIL. Thanks. I really want this phenomenon explained. Slippery slope fallacies, concern trolling, whataboutism, pearl clutching, feinting spells, Copenhagen Effect (blame anyone who tries to help for the original problem), Alistair Cockburn's wisdom about organizational change (tldr: people really, really hate change, of any kind, for any reason). Ad nauseatingum. It's exhausting.

lettergram 6y ago

> It's horrible for everyone in the city--most of all for the homeless. Have you worked with the homeless? Yes there is a lot of mental illness, but there is a large number of people who choose to live this way.

door100 6y ago
That's a rather bold assertion -- can you cite any statistics or surveys? In some limited sense, they may "choose" homelessness over poor shelter conditions or unaffordable housing, but that can hardly be considered a choice.
nobody9999 6y ago
>Have you worked with the homeless? Yes there is a lot of mental illness, but there is a large number of people who choose to live this way. Having been homeless myself many years ago, I can tell you from experience that not having money to pay rent or anyone to take you in is the reason people "choose" to be homeless. And once you are homeless, it's very difficult to work yourself out of it, for many reasons. I assume you haven't considered that it's very hard to keep (or even get) a job if you have no place to bathe or store your stuff while you're working.
- lettergram 6y ago
  I've worked in shelters and offered people food and a place to get cleaned up and they decline. I grant you many are not like this and perhaps you're more knowledgable with your first hand experience. I know I personally, also from trying to offer people shelters or even free room-and-board, they don't take it. I don't know why in all cases, but many wanted to do things "their own way". I find it commendable and I respect those who choose to refuse handouts. That's my point, they may not choose to be in that situation. However, forcefully detaining them for "mental illness" for not wanting "assistance" is a different discussion.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    >That's my point, they may not choose to be in that situation. However, forcefully detaining them for "mental illness" for not wanting "assistance" is a different discussion. Who suggested that anyone was doing that?

ogre_codes 6y ago

There is a lot of evidence that housing the homeless is not only more humane, it's also smart economics. By the time you sum up all the costs of homelessness, it's a pretty nasty toll. The biggest actual expense is the massive medical bills from exposure and neglect. Police and ambulance services are likely a close second, chasing around town and dealing with random mentally ill people in dire straits. The other costs are less obvious. As homeless clutter your public spaces, your city starts to rot. Parks become open areas of blight as the homeless overwhelm them and destroy the services they offer. This means much of the money your city invests in parks and public spaces ends up going to waste. Unless you spend more money on police. The final big expense is clean up and sanitation... unless your city doesn't clean up after homeless people in which case you just end up with actual shit in alleys on big piles of garbage on street corners. Putting up housing isn't a perfect solution, but it certainly eliminates some significant parts of that.

specialist 6y ago
Universal housing like SLC is doing is cheaper, more humane, and lightyears more effective. Policy wise, proactive beats reactive, prevention beats treatment. -- PS- I just cleaned up after an encampment. After the city cleaned. 20 used needles (mostly insulin) and dozens of other sharps, human waste, soiled diapers, everything else you can imagine. I'm just so pissed off. No one should have to live like that. Just put people in homes. Safe, clean, access to services. Even triage with microhouses along with honeybuckets and potable water would be better.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > Universal housing like SLC is doing is cheaper, more humane, and lightyears more effective. I read about that program and it sounds amazing. Decent public housing is pretty common in Europe as well. I forgot to mention one major cost savings for a city. It is much easier for someone housed to get a job and recover financially than a homeless person.