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Wow, those encouragements are very weak. "Get ads that are more personalized", "Support businesses that rely on ads to reach customers": why would I support bus

Wow, those encouragements are very weak. "Get ads that are more personalized", "Support businesses that rely on ads to reach customers": why would I support businesses relying on that when only 1 out of 5 ads in my feed is not garbage? These encouragements make me think that Facebook seems to believe that their ads are useful, which is a bit insane from a user perspective.

tehjoker 6y ago
Tech companies have been using this kind of rhetoric since the early 2000s. Back then, people were sympathetic to helping keep websites online, especially blogs and such owned by individuals. The line has lost its charm when it's turned into an inescapable global surveillance apparatus.
1123581321 6y ago
I’m not on Facebook so I can’t speak to what you personally see. However, I think the “support small business” angle is going to be somewhat compelling. I have, for example, two friends who are starting a niche business, offering a good and ethical service, and reaching people in that niche through Facebook and Instagram ads. The customers they find love what they’re doing and happily paying. If I had Facebook, I could see doing my small part to help them find a few more of those types of good businesses succeed. I also kind of despise Facebook, hence no account, so I don’t mind if this permission screen fails. :)
- bluesign 6y ago
  I bet for every one small business like your friend, there is 10 scammy business (something like selling 1$ item for 20$ with 40% discount) who is betting 10x more than your legit friend for impressions.
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    I’d love to see numbers if you have them. The idea that hurting bad small businesses is a positive externality is intriguing. I suppose we could hope that, opt-in or not, the move away from easy user tracking could benefit ethical businesses more than what you describe.
    - bluesign 6y ago
      Unfortunately I cannot share any data from the accounts I manage (mainly competitors are the shady ones), but simply you can go let's say instagram or facebook, and log the ads you saw (without clicking) in a single session (like first 20), then you can go check them. Probably what you will be interested will be almost at the end of the list, the first ones will be high margin products. To be honest, I don't see hope for ethical small business without user tracking. That's why Facebook is pushing that angle, even it is very small percentage on the overall. Big players will be almost not effected anyway.
- purplecats 6y ago
  I have no empathy for them. I tried to advertise my dating business on there, and got insta-banned both times because they basically don't let you compete with their dating services.
  - ddoolin 6y ago
    Wow! Really. I'm currently working on a nascent dating business and that's kind of disappointing to hear as I was counting on being able to advertise through that channel. Thanks for sharing.
    - purplecats 6y ago
      advertising for dating services are nontrivial across most of the popular domains on the web. you need to contact support and go through special processes, even for Reddit Ads.
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    I agree that’s wrong. Sounds like potential fodder for some of the ongoing legal surrounding Facebook.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  Were there no small businesses before FB and internet tracking? Is there any proof that FB actually helped out small business? Wouldn't showing ads for tech on a tech site and ads for women beauty products be shown on a site targeting women be a good replacement instead of profiling you and tracking you everywhere to determine that you might be a woman interested in JS IDE and Aloe Vera cream?
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    Those are good questions. I would love to see more browsing of independent websites. I think the question is what to do when people don't do that as much anymore, and other forms of marketing communication are too expensive for fledgling businesses.
grishka 6y ago
Have you ever talked to someone who works in adtech? They do sincerely believe that ads are helpful to people.
- otabdeveloper4 6y ago
  Complaining about advertising is like complaining about money. Advertising is inevitable in any economy.
  - wtetzner 6y ago
    I'm OK with advertising existing, it's just the way in which it's being conducted that's objectionable.
- lumost 6y ago
  I worked in ad-tech for years, ultimately the convincing data is that people actually do click on ads. They do buy the products, and they do this more often than they would have had we not shown the ads at all (for some market segments). I've often wondered if there is a population of users who simply hate ads to the extent that any impression will be net negative value to the advertiser, and what mechanisms could be used to stop showing them ads. There used to be services which let you purchase all of your own ads, but I think people want something more transparent which outright removes them from the services they use.
  - local_dev 6y ago
    >if there is a population of users who simply hate ads to the extent that any impression will be net negative value to the advertiser This segment of the population absolutely exists and I would guess that it is growing. Many people in my circle block ads on every device possible. Seeing any ad is an immediate negative impression for my group of friends. This is entirely anecdotal, but I've seen this same sentiment in many other circles and am hearing it more and more often.
  - grishka 6y ago
    > I've often wondered if there is a population of users who simply hate ads to the extent that any impression will be net negative value to the advertiser Yes, I would characterize myself as such. The best products gain their exposure through word of mouth, and don't need paid advertising. Incessantly raping my eyeballs with your brand would just make me hate it even more. Especially so if it's happening on my own electronic devices against my will. But then there are people who legitimately want to be advertised to — I know some personally. > I think people want something more transparent which outright removes them from the services they use. These are called ad blockers. I use them in some form on every device I own.
gameman144 6y ago
Agreed that a lot of ads are useless, but I've personally seen a few that I wouldn't have otherwise known about. For instance, there's a really cool used technical bookstore near me that I only discovered because I saw an ad for it. Also I would have missed a Humble Bundle that I really liked without an ad. Don't get me wrong, I probably hate the average ad more than most people (any Liberty Mutual ad just makes me angry), but to say that ads are not useful from a user perspective is a bit too absolute a position; for me, the good ones definitely are useful.
- latexr 6y ago
  Would you say those occasionally useful ads are worth the added stress (extrapolating from your words: “hate”, “angry”) of having to see other ads? If you do, I dispute the claim you hate the average ad more than most people, as would millions of Adblock users.
  - gameman144 6y ago
    Meh, to me these feel like separate buckets. I dislike a lot of ads that I find to be irrelevant or patronizing, which is why I run uBlock online for most sites, but "stress from seeing bad ads" isn't the only factor here. It seems like there are three big possibilities: 1. I see ads, and some of them cater directly to me. In this case, I see a lot of irrelevant/patronizing ads, but also some ads that make me see a product or company I like. 2. I see ads, and none cater directly to me. I see a lot of irrelevant/patronizing ads, and fewer ads that show me a product or company I like (and especially fewer that can only afford to market to people that are likely to buy their product, e.g. a sale at a local toy train repair shop or something). 3. I see no ads at all. This is what I default to on the internet, except for some whitelisted sites. There is no stress from seeing bad ads. There is also no possibility of serendipitously finding a new product/company I want to try. A lot of people are strongly in camp #3. That's fine, I'm in camp #3 for most of the internet. However, given that I have found value out of some ads, it's hard to put "stress from bad ads" against "joy from products I found through ads" on a single scale. As such, I can empathize with camp #1. Likewise, I understand that camps #1 and #2 can be important monetization mechanisms for websites that I support, and I'm fine taking that hit in exchange for those websites still existing (as I'm sure most others are -- if ad-blockers disappeared overnight, my gut tells me that the average person wouldn't change many of their browsing habits by a lot.) To me it seems like the lesser of two evils that if a company needs to show me ads (in a privacy-respecting way), then I'd like more of those ads to be relevant. All that said, I'm happy to be wrong here, and maybe I underestimate how much other people hate bad ads too (and also, all the above options assume respect for privacy in ad-targeting, something that I don't have nearly enough insight to even make educated guesses on.)

tehjoker 6y ago

Tech companies have been using this kind of rhetoric since the early 2000s. Back then, people were sympathetic to helping keep websites online, especially blogs and such owned by individuals. The line has lost its charm when it's turned into an inescapable global surveillance apparatus.

1123581321 6y ago

I’m not on Facebook so I can’t speak to what you personally see. However, I think the “support small business” angle is going to be somewhat compelling. I have, for example, two friends who are starting a niche business, offering a good and ethical service, and reaching people in that niche through Facebook and Instagram ads. The customers they find love what they’re doing and happily paying. If I had Facebook, I could see doing my small part to help them find a few more of those types of good businesses succeed. I also kind of despise Facebook, hence no account, so I don’t mind if this permission screen fails. :)

bluesign 6y ago
I bet for every one small business like your friend, there is 10 scammy business (something like selling 1$ item for 20$ with 40% discount) who is betting 10x more than your legit friend for impressions.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  I’d love to see numbers if you have them. The idea that hurting bad small businesses is a positive externality is intriguing. I suppose we could hope that, opt-in or not, the move away from easy user tracking could benefit ethical businesses more than what you describe.
  - bluesign 6y ago
    Unfortunately I cannot share any data from the accounts I manage (mainly competitors are the shady ones), but simply you can go let's say instagram or facebook, and log the ads you saw (without clicking) in a single session (like first 20), then you can go check them. Probably what you will be interested will be almost at the end of the list, the first ones will be high margin products. To be honest, I don't see hope for ethical small business without user tracking. That's why Facebook is pushing that angle, even it is very small percentage on the overall. Big players will be almost not effected anyway.
purplecats 6y ago
I have no empathy for them. I tried to advertise my dating business on there, and got insta-banned both times because they basically don't let you compete with their dating services.
- ddoolin 6y ago
  Wow! Really. I'm currently working on a nascent dating business and that's kind of disappointing to hear as I was counting on being able to advertise through that channel. Thanks for sharing.
  - purplecats 6y ago
    advertising for dating services are nontrivial across most of the popular domains on the web. you need to contact support and go through special processes, even for Reddit Ads.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  I agree that’s wrong. Sounds like potential fodder for some of the ongoing legal surrounding Facebook.
mrtksn 6y ago
Were there no small businesses before FB and internet tracking? Is there any proof that FB actually helped out small business? Wouldn't showing ads for tech on a tech site and ads for women beauty products be shown on a site targeting women be a good replacement instead of profiling you and tracking you everywhere to determine that you might be a woman interested in JS IDE and Aloe Vera cream?
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Those are good questions. I would love to see more browsing of independent websites. I think the question is what to do when people don't do that as much anymore, and other forms of marketing communication are too expensive for fledgling businesses.

grishka 6y ago

Have you ever talked to someone who works in adtech? They do sincerely believe that ads are helpful to people.

otabdeveloper4 6y ago
Complaining about advertising is like complaining about money. Advertising is inevitable in any economy.
- wtetzner 6y ago
  I'm OK with advertising existing, it's just the way in which it's being conducted that's objectionable.
lumost 6y ago
I worked in ad-tech for years, ultimately the convincing data is that people actually do click on ads. They do buy the products, and they do this more often than they would have had we not shown the ads at all (for some market segments). I've often wondered if there is a population of users who simply hate ads to the extent that any impression will be net negative value to the advertiser, and what mechanisms could be used to stop showing them ads. There used to be services which let you purchase all of your own ads, but I think people want something more transparent which outright removes them from the services they use.
- local_dev 6y ago
  >if there is a population of users who simply hate ads to the extent that any impression will be net negative value to the advertiser This segment of the population absolutely exists and I would guess that it is growing. Many people in my circle block ads on every device possible. Seeing any ad is an immediate negative impression for my group of friends. This is entirely anecdotal, but I've seen this same sentiment in many other circles and am hearing it more and more often.
- grishka 6y ago
  > I've often wondered if there is a population of users who simply hate ads to the extent that any impression will be net negative value to the advertiser Yes, I would characterize myself as such. The best products gain their exposure through word of mouth, and don't need paid advertising. Incessantly raping my eyeballs with your brand would just make me hate it even more. Especially so if it's happening on my own electronic devices against my will. But then there are people who legitimately want to be advertised to — I know some personally. > I think people want something more transparent which outright removes them from the services they use. These are called ad blockers. I use them in some form on every device I own.

gameman144 6y ago

Agreed that a lot of ads are useless, but I've personally seen a few that I wouldn't have otherwise known about. For instance, there's a really cool used technical bookstore near me that I only discovered because I saw an ad for it. Also I would have missed a Humble Bundle that I really liked without an ad. Don't get me wrong, I probably hate the average ad more than most people (any Liberty Mutual ad just makes me angry), but to say that ads are not useful from a user perspective is a bit too absolute a position; for me, the good ones definitely are useful.

latexr 6y ago
Would you say those occasionally useful ads are worth the added stress (extrapolating from your words: “hate”, “angry”) of having to see other ads? If you do, I dispute the claim you hate the average ad more than most people, as would millions of Adblock users.
- gameman144 6y ago
  Meh, to me these feel like separate buckets. I dislike a lot of ads that I find to be irrelevant or patronizing, which is why I run uBlock online for most sites, but "stress from seeing bad ads" isn't the only factor here. It seems like there are three big possibilities: 1. I see ads, and some of them cater directly to me. In this case, I see a lot of irrelevant/patronizing ads, but also some ads that make me see a product or company I like. 2. I see ads, and none cater directly to me. I see a lot of irrelevant/patronizing ads, and fewer ads that show me a product or company I like (and especially fewer that can only afford to market to people that are likely to buy their product, e.g. a sale at a local toy train repair shop or something). 3. I see no ads at all. This is what I default to on the internet, except for some whitelisted sites. There is no stress from seeing bad ads. There is also no possibility of serendipitously finding a new product/company I want to try. A lot of people are strongly in camp #3. That's fine, I'm in camp #3 for most of the internet. However, given that I have found value out of some ads, it's hard to put "stress from bad ads" against "joy from products I found through ads" on a single scale. As such, I can empathize with camp #1. Likewise, I understand that camps #1 and #2 can be important monetization mechanisms for websites that I support, and I'm fine taking that hit in exchange for those websites still existing (as I'm sure most others are -- if ad-blockers disappeared overnight, my gut tells me that the average person wouldn't change many of their browsing habits by a lot.) To me it seems like the lesser of two evils that if a company needs to show me ads (in a privacy-respecting way), then I'd like more of those ads to be relevant. All that said, I'm happy to be wrong here, and maybe I underestimate how much other people hate bad ads too (and also, all the above options assume respect for privacy in ad-targeting, something that I don't have nearly enough insight to even make educated guesses on.)