9 ms·

Studying the impact of U.S. immigration barriers on global knowledge production

152 points by elsewhen 6y ago

drocer88 6y ago
U.S. per capita GDP ~= $60000 World per capita GDP ~= $10000 US/World ~= 6 So, yeah, labor performed in the US is 6x world labor.
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  I don’t think that is the measure of productivity measured by the paper. It seems more interested in science and mathematics research.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
digdigdag 6y ago
The way I see it: the more skilled labor we can import, the better. The U.S. owes its success largely due to migration (be it through merchants, slaves, or otherwise). I don't agree with the notion that we must "close off" the country in order to preserve said success.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- almost_usual 6y ago
  > I don't agree with the notion that we must "close off" the country in order to preserve said success. I would argue our success would significantly decline. A majority of Americans believe they’re entitled to the lifestyle and resources they have. A lot of immigrants from poorer areas understand that’s false. It’s why you see hard working immigrants being successful and their kids riding their coattails.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Immigration is self selecting. People with significant developmental disabilities for example are vastly less likely to immigrate. But, that says little about the genetics of the population so in the next generation regression to the mean kicks in.
    - almost_usual 6y ago
      > But, that says little about the genetics of the population so in the next generation regression to the mean kicks in. True but I do think America has a “dumbing down” privilege effect on the population. A lot of Americans are racist, angry, and think they’re entitled to their way of life. They don’t realize they need to do well in school because the high paying jobs they’re competing for everyone in the world is also competing for. If you’re against immigration you’re limiting your competitive edge and someone else in the world will put you of business (probably in China).
- Retric 6y ago
  It’s not about smarts. Funding, culture, infrastructure, and institutions mean on average someone in say India would be more productive moved to the US when doing just about anything. Advantages like cleaner air don’t care about how smart someone is, their useful across the bord.
- joshum97 6y ago
  I’d push it one step further and include “unskilled” labor too. The value added to society is measurably positive no matter the skill level of the immigrant.
  - iguy 6y ago
    Lots of "unskilled" immigrants certainly find useful things to do. And live better lives than they would have at home. But I think the counter-argument is something like this. Countries with an unlimited pool of low-skill labor have a lot of bad features. One of these is a class gap, between haves and have-nots, who feel they don't share common interests. Another is that the incentive to invent ways to reduce labor input is reduced, why bother if it's cheap? And inventing ways to do more per person is precisely what economic growth is.
Kharvok 6y ago
Migrants from where? It seems to reference only studies by selecting for the "cream of the crop" from other developed nations.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
xwdv 6y ago
Yes, because you have to work a lot harder to make it in the U.S. than other countries, where you could mostly slack off and be taken care of by robust welfare systems. But also, the rewards for working harder in the US and having the right bit of luck are much higher than other countries. If you're an immigrant and you're looking to move somewhere for a YOLO shot at a good life, the U.S. is still the best game in town.
- mucholove 6y ago
  You’re clearly not from a Latin American country. I am both Latin American and European. The experience in Latin America is that you can’t make it no matter how hard you try. So much paperwork. And you have to pre-pay taxes! (Anticipos) I am also European. And sure Spain has much bigger safety. But Latin American inherits its dysfunctional bureaucracy from Spain. UK / US culture is free and unleashed.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    > And you have to pre-pay taxes! Before you make money, you need to pay tax?
    - nottorp 6y ago
      > Before you make money, you need to pay tax? In countries with corrupt and/or incompetent tax authorities, they try to introduce a fixed tax amount / pay in advance scheme for ... reasons ... where they can. Usually they squeeze freelancers first. Or random liberal occupations. In Romania freelancers and landlords have to prepay taxes based on last years' income, for example. With the exception of some kinds of freelancers that they just gave up on and make them pay a fixed amount per year. Freelancers prepay taxes in Greece too, as far as i know.
      - anonfornoreason 6y ago
        You have to prepay in the USA as well based on previous year taxes. It’s called making safe harbor, and there are penalties if you don’t.
DoctorNick 6y ago
The US has a uniquely exploitative work visa program and undocumented immigrants are hired at slave wages. I wouldn't call this an accomplishment.
- iguy 6y ago
  2nd line of TFA: "among Nobel Prize winners and Fields Medalists, [im]migrants [...]" These people might be under-paid, relative to silicon valley, but "slave wages" is pushing it. And while they are not a group known for being really on top of their paperwork, few of them cross borders illegally. Unless you mean the ones who escaped the USSR without permission.
- Tinyyy 6y ago
  I make $400k/yr as an immigrant, and boy do I feel exploited :) Edit: Sorry for being sarcastic and flexing here. I’m friends with many IMO and IOI medalists (per the paper) who are studying/working in the US and I think it’s an amazing opportunity for them. Where I grew up in Singapore, tech salaries are way lower, and as a new grad I think I easily 3xed what I could’ve made back there. I’m not representative of all immigrants but I believe I can represent a class of highly skilled immigrants who appreciate the opportunity. It’s extremely insulting to call people like me exploited, because the next line is - I’m bringing down your wages.
  - arkitaip 6y ago
    Imagine thinking you are representative of US immigrants.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - TeeMassive 6y ago
      Imagine thinking you speaking as a representative yourself...
    - nostrademons 6y ago
harikb 6y ago
The main take away is that there is advancement for global scientific community by having a significant portion of the smart people migrate to one part of the world and collaborate. What is not discussed 1. The fact that it happens a to be USA is a minor turn in the history in favor of this particular country 2. Post COVID world could be significantly different
dan-robertson 6y ago
I can’t easily download this paper but it is measuring specific things in research scientists and mathematicians and doesn’t really say much about us migrants in general or what you may think of as productivity. The title feels like a bit of an overstatement of the results.
nottorp 6y ago
H1-B serfdom? Or just the fact that everything in the US is overpriced? Or, related to H1-B, their managers feel the need to overstate their contribution so they'll be allowed to import more serfs in the future?
- golemiprague 6y ago
  The only thing that is overpriced in the US is Education and Health, anything else is cheaper than any other developed country and no other country has so much variety it terms of cost of living like the US.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > Or just the fact that everything in the US is overpriced? Will disagree, US is all over the place, but it is faaaar from the most expensive countries around.
oji0hub 6y ago
Well they get kicked out of the country if they get fired.
- finolex1 6y ago
  The paper is about IMO medalists and the like. Getting fired is not among their primary concerns.
- briandear 6y ago
  Is that different than Europe for those on a work visa?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    No, if you're ex-EU with a working visa and you lose your job, you can lose legal status in the country (unless you get another visa, whether that's another employer or something else)
    - jounker 6y ago
      It’s actually really different in treatment, at least in Germany. Yes, you can loose your job but you get to stick around until your visa expires, which in my experience is tied to the visa term rather than the employment. When you loose employment you’re also allowed to collect unemployment. My visa class (basically the equivalent of an H1B) also allowed me to work as a contractor in my field. Finally, getting the visa transferred to another employer just requires you to show up at the immigration office with an employment contract. Your employer doesn’t have to do anything. There is also an assumption here that you’re a guest who is trying to do the right thing rather than someone who is trying to game the system or steal a job from Germans. So, the reality is that it’s hugely different from the experience I’ve heard of people having with the American immigration system.
  - jounker 6y ago
lmilcin 6y ago
Listen, this isn't all that difficult to understand. Migrating to US is much higher effort than migrating practically anywhere else in the world. You don't expend that effort if you don't plan on making the best of it. Also US makes it very hard or impossible to migrate if you are not already high earner in your country of origin. Being high earner would normally correlate with being productive, at least when it comes to jobs requiring high level of expertise, ie. practically the only ones that US lets in.
- Waterluvian 6y ago
  > Migrating to US is much higher effort than migrating practically anywhere else in the world. This is a surprising statement to me. Maybe it's true. But my understanding (which might be wrong) is that it's considerably more difficult to receive legal status in most other OECD nations.
  - jounker 6y ago
    As American living abroad, I assure you that the US has an almost absurdly burdensome immigration system.
    - refurb 6y ago
      As someone whoo immigrated to the US, most of the difficulty is due to demand - i.e. H1B lottery, visa country caps, etc. Otherwise it's not that different than other countries.
      - lmilcin 6y ago
        I studied mathematics. It wasn't hard to get there at all. The only problem was there were seventeen applicants for every single one that got in, otherwise it wasn't more difficult than if I wanted to get admitted to geology.
  - freshbob 6y ago
    What's you definition of "legal status"? It's not like this article talks about people coming to the US illegally. Do you mean settled status? Regardless, that is easier as well (see for instance the guy posting about the Blue Card a few comments up).
exodus04 6y ago
I am a non immigrant. I just came here to study and want to return once I am done. But one thing I can say for sure, back in my home country I never worked as hard as I did in America. In America, I worked my ass off, I feel like its the robust education system that made me this person. I enjoy studying/working more than going outside and partying. I feel America helped me discover more about myself than I would have ever learned in another country. I thank America and its predecessors who created such a beautiful country.
- boxmonster 6y ago
  You may have noticed that people in America are very critical of America. Victor Davis Hanson explains it here: "Critics of the West: From Tacitus to Michael Moore" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bao_YeH14RM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bao_YeH14RM Basically he says we have the luxury of time and leisure to be self-critical and we believe we can achieve a utopian ideal but we fall short in so many ways. Some people do not like VDH because he's a conservative Trump supporter, but that doesn't make him a bad historian.
  - ruph123 6y ago
    Americans are not the only ones being critical of America. Quite the opposite: My perception is rather that Americans have very high tendency to assume they are the greatest country in the world. And because of mostly learning about their own country and history in school it is harder to hold themselves to higher standards and compare with other nations besides the size of your army or the worth of the biggest companies (e.g. when you get cancer and lose your job, you somehow must pay for that treatment that is just how it is, better have something saved up. Whereas in many other developed nations that goes much differently) Also regarding to GP: “working more” != “being more productive”
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      I agree that working more does not necessarily result in being more productive, but is there anything more specific you can add? Sometimes working more does mean being more productive. Sometimes it results in less output per hour, and depending on that haircut, can net at more or less productivity. Sometimes the working more is a prerequisite to learning something that you can leverage later on. What was your point in mentioning that to OP? It seems like a bit of an aphorism that doesn't add much to the conversation except to dull GP's point.
cccc4all 6y ago
But, are they paid 6x the salary? If not, why not? What is depressing the salary levels at 6x productivity gains? Who are benefiting from gains in productivity and depressed salary?
pdevr 6y ago
Just to be clear, after a quick read: This paper applies to science and innovation only. Citation-weighted publications are used to compare. There are countries where migrants are much more productive than the U.S. in non-STEM areas, but it is essentially accomplished by means of almost-forced-labor, and the working conditions are atrocious[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25969442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25969442 Edit: Original title of this submission was "Migrants to the US are up to 6 times more productive than migrants elsewhere", until dang edited it.
jbullock35 6y ago
This paper examines only those who are extraordinarily able: Nobel Prize winners, Fields Medalists, and International Math Olympiad medalists. It's interesting, but the current HN headline ("Migrants to the US are up to 6 times more productive than migrants elsewhere") seems misleading. The paper is taking up < 0.01% of "migrants to the U.S."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- CyberRabbi 6y ago
  Thats true. I would like to know if the demographics of those high performing migrants are representative of the US’s entire migrant population. If not, then it’s critically more accurate to say that some specific migrant groups are 6 times more productive than migrants elsewhere.
- dang 6y ago
  The submitted title broke the HN guidelines against editorializing titles. Cherry-picking a detail from an article and making that the title is a form of editorializing—the most common form, in fact. I've replaced it with the first sentence of the abstract, which does a slightly more accurate and neutral job of expressing what the article is about than the primary title does. "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- notahacker 6y ago
  Also, the 'six times more productive' stat turns out to mean Math Olympiad medallists who migrate to the US are six times more likely to get a speaking slot at the International Congress of Mathematicians than people who stay at home; an impressive accomplishment but hardly what most people would call 'productivity'. On the slightly less arcane measure of weighted academic citations, migrants to the US have twice as many as migrants to other countries, or four times as many as those who stay at home. Or put another way: moving to country with best funded and most prestigious research institutions turns out to be useful if you want a high-profile academic career
2ion 6y ago
This is not difficult, looking at the kind of migration e.g. Germany has in the millions. When taking averages and means of migrant KPI over the migrant population at large, any good will be cancelled out by the negative aspects of 3rd world pauper migration. Because the subpopulations are vastly differently sized. Any 1st world country with more tightly controlled migration should do better.
nostromo 6y ago
Edit: thanks to the mods for fixing the title. More productive in "knowledge production" according to "novel survey data" and "hand-curated life-histories of International Math Olympiad (IMO) medalists." The headline makes this sound like a broad finding, but in fact it’s very narrow.
TeeMassive 6y ago
I'm from Canada, and it is not surprising, especially when it comes to STEM fields. The thing most people do not get about immigrating to Canada is that it is VERY hard. Good luck getting here with no marketable skills or without being a refugee. As a White person who grew up in a White rural area, my peers simply didn't realize the value of education compared to what I've seen from immigrants and children of immigrants. This is also true in bigger cities now that I live those now. "I'll just get into a trade" was a common saying, fortunately I saw the lack of wisdom in that and studied CS.
orange_tee 6y ago
As always people on here bitching about the US. As an outsider one thing I find to be really good in the US is inclusion. Americans really don't know how backwards the rest of the world is. For example, I currently live in Germany. Germany is currently importing boatloads of Latino and South East Asian STEM workers. Now if you look at the structure of German companies two things stand out: 1. there is a huge disparity between management and workers and this is reflected also in the salaries 2. all management are German (99.9% ethnic with maybe one 3rd generation ethnic Slav/Turk) This situation is very likely true for most of Europe, except for maybe the UK. So of course migrants in the US are more productive. In most countries immigrants are imported to fill a niche and the glass ceiling is held firmly just above that niche. And let's not even talk about entrepreneurial opportunities for immigrants.
- DetroitThrow 6y ago
  Yes, I am always shocked to hear how "non-racist" Germany is when I have friends who failed to climb the corporate ladder their because of their Greek last name, as they were explicitly told by their coworkers. In America, they are doing well now as an executive at a F500.
  - cameldrv 6y ago
    Having lived in Germany for a few years, I was pretty surprised by the level of casual racism. The level of casual anti-semitism in Poland was even more surprising.
    - piokoch 6y ago
      Interesting. I've checked [1] and it seems that number of antisemitic incidents in Poland is rather low (for instance is smaller than in Sweden, which has much smaller population), not to mention France, where number of incidents was 5 times bigger than in Poland. I am curious what is source of you information about Polish antisemitism. [1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overview-2009-2019 https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overv...
kumarski 6y ago
On average, they have 2x to 6x the amount of electricity access in the USA to the countries they come from. Makes sense.
quickthrower2 6y ago
Title change? “Why U.S. Immigration Barriers Matter for the Global Advancement of Science”
Aunche 6y ago
The US has many of the most prestigious universities in the world. Relatively few citizens want to get into academia because our brightest minds would rather pursue more lucrative careers. As a result, our elite instructions end up recruiting the brightest minds from around the globe instead.
newacct583 6y ago
Title is using the wrong word. The paper is about "US Immigration Restrictions" and it's about knowledge workers, that is normal legal immigrants with visas (e.g. H1B, etc...). The term "migrant" is generally used to refer to unskilled workers entering the country to follow jobs in temporary or seasonal industries. Very often this therefore becomes a euphemism for "illegal immigrant". That's not what this paper is studying.
baybal2 6y ago
Measuring productivity in money is like measuring car's performance by its fuel consumption.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
semanticsbitch 6y ago
And in the US, they push you through a system that doesn't matter. You can get great grades and have goals and aspirations, but when skills don't matter, it is pointless to try. All that exists is nepotism and family, the latter which most people rely on. But most people don't even have that. America should read, "Don't bother trying unless you have family that will help and a dick to suck."
rapind 6y ago
Clickbait drivel.
jariel 6y ago
PISA standardized testing (I think 15 year olds) differentiates between migrants and non migrants. In the Anglosphere aka US, UK, Can, Au, Nz - migrants do only a little bit worse on standardized test than local kids, but once accommodating for income, migrants to a little better than local kids. Everywhere else, migrants to far below the regular average. Everywhere in Europe especially, they are far below. People don't often make this distinction but the Anglo world tends to be far more 'open'. If you can speak English, that's fine. In places like Germany and Sweden, irrespective of how educated someone might be, there are larger barriers to integration and migrants are often social outsiders. This isn't driven mostly by 'hate' or anything deeply nefarious, rather it's by strong association of 'in-group' dynamics. The Paradox is that in the US and even in the UK (i.e. Brexit) people are lambasted as 'xenophobic' by certain parts of the political spectrum when this is demonstrably false. UK/US are actually much more likely to believe in the economic value of migrants than elsewhere. They are generally welcoming places, however, due to larger rates of migration - much more existential discussions arise. Of course Anglosphere countries are also much more likley to be aspirational targets for migration in general (though it's clearly not always true: kids Maghreb especially want to got to France, and Germany/Sweden were popular among Syrian refugees).
vaidhy 6y ago
I have been having similar discussions with my friends. My key takeaway is that if you are in the top 5 or 10%, US is a great place for you. Every place is open and your hard work (and a bit of luck) will take you a long way up. However, if you are average, US sucks for you. There is just so much burden to just keep working, even more so, if you have family. Between lack of public transport, healthcare, exploitative workplace and strong victim blaming attitude, you carry on just hoping that your kids will become one of the top 10%. For every example of successful immigrant, I think about the thousands of farm workers and hard laborers who make a trip here, and struggle to make a good life. And yes, they make more money that they make in their homeland.. but that does not make their current situation better.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Are any of your friends immigrants in America? Because "public transportation" has never come up in any conversation I have had with an average immigrant. This is an anecdote but I think it's illustrative. I met a cab driver in Texas who immigrated from Morocco. He was extolling the virtues of Texas. He and his cab driver friends had been able to buy 3BR houses with pools on their cab driver incomes, put their kids in decent schools, etc. If you go to East Texas, you see tons of working class Latinos who work solid jobs in the booming oil and chemical industries there. It's not fancy, but you see brand new strip malls, shiny new pickup trucks, and big families everywhere. Tons of middle class prosperity among the immigrant population. I'm from Bangladesh, and while my parents immigrated to the U.S. under pretty good circumstances (my dad has a white collar job), not everyone in my family did. And their view of achieving "the American Dream" is very much in line with what this Moroccan cab driver was saying. They want a big house and good schools for their kids. America provides that, including to immigrants. 75% of lawful immigrants have health insurance, mostly through their employer, or through Medicare/Medicaid/ACA. (The rate is over 90% for native-born Americans.) The median size of a new house in the United States is over 2,600 square feet. (Half of Latinos own their own homes, despite a median age of just 30, over 14 years younger than the median age of whites.) The median price of a new car in America is $38,000. This is what most Americans, and most working-class immigrants to America, consider the "American Dream." "Public transportation" is something that only a minority of college-educated elite actually think is a good thing.

152 points by elsewhen 6y ago

U.S. per capita GDP ~= $60000 World per capita GDP ~= $10000 US/World ~= 6 So, yeah, labor performed in the US is 6x world labor.

dan-robertson 6y ago
I don’t think that is the measure of productivity measured by the paper. It seems more interested in science and mathematics research.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

digdigdag 6y ago

The way I see it: the more skilled labor we can import, the better. The U.S. owes its success largely due to migration (be it through merchants, slaves, or otherwise). I don't agree with the notion that we must "close off" the country in order to preserve said success.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
almost_usual 6y ago
> I don't agree with the notion that we must "close off" the country in order to preserve said success. I would argue our success would significantly decline. A majority of Americans believe they’re entitled to the lifestyle and resources they have. A lot of immigrants from poorer areas understand that’s false. It’s why you see hard working immigrants being successful and their kids riding their coattails.
- Retric 6y ago
  Immigration is self selecting. People with significant developmental disabilities for example are vastly less likely to immigrate. But, that says little about the genetics of the population so in the next generation regression to the mean kicks in.
  - almost_usual 6y ago
    > But, that says little about the genetics of the population so in the next generation regression to the mean kicks in. True but I do think America has a “dumbing down” privilege effect on the population. A lot of Americans are racist, angry, and think they’re entitled to their way of life. They don’t realize they need to do well in school because the high paying jobs they’re competing for everyone in the world is also competing for. If you’re against immigration you’re limiting your competitive edge and someone else in the world will put you of business (probably in China).
Retric 6y ago
It’s not about smarts. Funding, culture, infrastructure, and institutions mean on average someone in say India would be more productive moved to the US when doing just about anything. Advantages like cleaner air don’t care about how smart someone is, their useful across the bord.
joshum97 6y ago
I’d push it one step further and include “unskilled” labor too. The value added to society is measurably positive no matter the skill level of the immigrant.
- iguy 6y ago
  Lots of "unskilled" immigrants certainly find useful things to do. And live better lives than they would have at home. But I think the counter-argument is something like this. Countries with an unlimited pool of low-skill labor have a lot of bad features. One of these is a class gap, between haves and have-nots, who feel they don't share common interests. Another is that the incentive to invent ways to reduce labor input is reduced, why bother if it's cheap? And inventing ways to do more per person is precisely what economic growth is.

Kharvok 6y ago

Migrants from where? It seems to reference only studies by selecting for the "cream of the crop" from other developed nations.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

xwdv 6y ago

Yes, because you have to work a lot harder to make it in the U.S. than other countries, where you could mostly slack off and be taken care of by robust welfare systems. But also, the rewards for working harder in the US and having the right bit of luck are much higher than other countries. If you're an immigrant and you're looking to move somewhere for a YOLO shot at a good life, the U.S. is still the best game in town.

mucholove 6y ago
You’re clearly not from a Latin American country. I am both Latin American and European. The experience in Latin America is that you can’t make it no matter how hard you try. So much paperwork. And you have to pre-pay taxes! (Anticipos) I am also European. And sure Spain has much bigger safety. But Latin American inherits its dysfunctional bureaucracy from Spain. UK / US culture is free and unleashed.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  > And you have to pre-pay taxes! Before you make money, you need to pay tax?
  - nottorp 6y ago
    > Before you make money, you need to pay tax? In countries with corrupt and/or incompetent tax authorities, they try to introduce a fixed tax amount / pay in advance scheme for ... reasons ... where they can. Usually they squeeze freelancers first. Or random liberal occupations. In Romania freelancers and landlords have to prepay taxes based on last years' income, for example. With the exception of some kinds of freelancers that they just gave up on and make them pay a fixed amount per year. Freelancers prepay taxes in Greece too, as far as i know.
    - anonfornoreason 6y ago
      You have to prepay in the USA as well based on previous year taxes. It’s called making safe harbor, and there are penalties if you don’t.

DoctorNick 6y ago

The US has a uniquely exploitative work visa program and undocumented immigrants are hired at slave wages. I wouldn't call this an accomplishment.

iguy 6y ago
2nd line of TFA: "among Nobel Prize winners and Fields Medalists, [im]migrants [...]" These people might be under-paid, relative to silicon valley, but "slave wages" is pushing it. And while they are not a group known for being really on top of their paperwork, few of them cross borders illegally. Unless you mean the ones who escaped the USSR without permission.
Tinyyy 6y ago
I make $400k/yr as an immigrant, and boy do I feel exploited :) Edit: Sorry for being sarcastic and flexing here. I’m friends with many IMO and IOI medalists (per the paper) who are studying/working in the US and I think it’s an amazing opportunity for them. Where I grew up in Singapore, tech salaries are way lower, and as a new grad I think I easily 3xed what I could’ve made back there. I’m not representative of all immigrants but I believe I can represent a class of highly skilled immigrants who appreciate the opportunity. It’s extremely insulting to call people like me exploited, because the next line is - I’m bringing down your wages.
- arkitaip 6y ago
  Imagine thinking you are representative of US immigrants.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - TeeMassive 6y ago
    Imagine thinking you speaking as a representative yourself...
  - nostrademons 6y ago

harikb 6y ago

The main take away is that there is advancement for global scientific community by having a significant portion of the smart people migrate to one part of the world and collaborate. What is not discussed 1. The fact that it happens a to be USA is a minor turn in the history in favor of this particular country 2. Post COVID world could be significantly different

dan-robertson 6y ago

I can’t easily download this paper but it is measuring specific things in research scientists and mathematicians and doesn’t really say much about us migrants in general or what you may think of as productivity. The title feels like a bit of an overstatement of the results.

nottorp 6y ago

H1-B serfdom? Or just the fact that everything in the US is overpriced? Or, related to H1-B, their managers feel the need to overstate their contribution so they'll be allowed to import more serfs in the future?

golemiprague 6y ago
The only thing that is overpriced in the US is Education and Health, anything else is cheaper than any other developed country and no other country has so much variety it terms of cost of living like the US.
baybal2 6y ago
> Or just the fact that everything in the US is overpriced? Will disagree, US is all over the place, but it is faaaar from the most expensive countries around.

oji0hub 6y ago

Well they get kicked out of the country if they get fired.

finolex1 6y ago
The paper is about IMO medalists and the like. Getting fired is not among their primary concerns.
briandear 6y ago
Is that different than Europe for those on a work visa?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  No, if you're ex-EU with a working visa and you lose your job, you can lose legal status in the country (unless you get another visa, whether that's another employer or something else)
  - jounker 6y ago
    It’s actually really different in treatment, at least in Germany. Yes, you can loose your job but you get to stick around until your visa expires, which in my experience is tied to the visa term rather than the employment. When you loose employment you’re also allowed to collect unemployment. My visa class (basically the equivalent of an H1B) also allowed me to work as a contractor in my field. Finally, getting the visa transferred to another employer just requires you to show up at the immigration office with an employment contract. Your employer doesn’t have to do anything. There is also an assumption here that you’re a guest who is trying to do the right thing rather than someone who is trying to game the system or steal a job from Germans. So, the reality is that it’s hugely different from the experience I’ve heard of people having with the American immigration system.
- jounker 6y ago

lmilcin 6y ago

Listen, this isn't all that difficult to understand. Migrating to US is much higher effort than migrating practically anywhere else in the world. You don't expend that effort if you don't plan on making the best of it. Also US makes it very hard or impossible to migrate if you are not already high earner in your country of origin. Being high earner would normally correlate with being productive, at least when it comes to jobs requiring high level of expertise, ie. practically the only ones that US lets in.

Waterluvian 6y ago
> Migrating to US is much higher effort than migrating practically anywhere else in the world. This is a surprising statement to me. Maybe it's true. But my understanding (which might be wrong) is that it's considerably more difficult to receive legal status in most other OECD nations.
- jounker 6y ago
  As American living abroad, I assure you that the US has an almost absurdly burdensome immigration system.
  - refurb 6y ago
    As someone whoo immigrated to the US, most of the difficulty is due to demand - i.e. H1B lottery, visa country caps, etc. Otherwise it's not that different than other countries.
    - lmilcin 6y ago
      I studied mathematics. It wasn't hard to get there at all. The only problem was there were seventeen applicants for every single one that got in, otherwise it wasn't more difficult than if I wanted to get admitted to geology.
- freshbob 6y ago
  What's you definition of "legal status"? It's not like this article talks about people coming to the US illegally. Do you mean settled status? Regardless, that is easier as well (see for instance the guy posting about the Blue Card a few comments up).

exodus04 6y ago

I am a non immigrant. I just came here to study and want to return once I am done. But one thing I can say for sure, back in my home country I never worked as hard as I did in America. In America, I worked my ass off, I feel like its the robust education system that made me this person. I enjoy studying/working more than going outside and partying. I feel America helped me discover more about myself than I would have ever learned in another country. I thank America and its predecessors who created such a beautiful country.

boxmonster 6y ago
You may have noticed that people in America are very critical of America. Victor Davis Hanson explains it here: "Critics of the West: From Tacitus to Michael Moore" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bao_YeH14RM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bao_YeH14RM Basically he says we have the luxury of time and leisure to be self-critical and we believe we can achieve a utopian ideal but we fall short in so many ways. Some people do not like VDH because he's a conservative Trump supporter, but that doesn't make him a bad historian.
- ruph123 6y ago
  Americans are not the only ones being critical of America. Quite the opposite: My perception is rather that Americans have very high tendency to assume they are the greatest country in the world. And because of mostly learning about their own country and history in school it is harder to hold themselves to higher standards and compare with other nations besides the size of your army or the worth of the biggest companies (e.g. when you get cancer and lose your job, you somehow must pay for that treatment that is just how it is, better have something saved up. Whereas in many other developed nations that goes much differently) Also regarding to GP: “working more” != “being more productive”
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    I agree that working more does not necessarily result in being more productive, but is there anything more specific you can add? Sometimes working more does mean being more productive. Sometimes it results in less output per hour, and depending on that haircut, can net at more or less productivity. Sometimes the working more is a prerequisite to learning something that you can leverage later on. What was your point in mentioning that to OP? It seems like a bit of an aphorism that doesn't add much to the conversation except to dull GP's point.

cccc4all 6y ago

But, are they paid 6x the salary? If not, why not? What is depressing the salary levels at 6x productivity gains? Who are benefiting from gains in productivity and depressed salary?

pdevr 6y ago

Just to be clear, after a quick read: This paper applies to science and innovation only. Citation-weighted publications are used to compare. There are countries where migrants are much more productive than the U.S. in non-STEM areas, but it is essentially accomplished by means of almost-forced-labor, and the working conditions are atrocious[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25969442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25969442 Edit: Original title of this submission was "Migrants to the US are up to 6 times more productive than migrants elsewhere", until dang edited it.

jbullock35 6y ago

This paper examines only those who are extraordinarily able: Nobel Prize winners, Fields Medalists, and International Math Olympiad medalists. It's interesting, but the current HN headline ("Migrants to the US are up to 6 times more productive than migrants elsewhere") seems misleading. The paper is taking up < 0.01% of "migrants to the U.S."

deleted 6y ago
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CyberRabbi 6y ago
Thats true. I would like to know if the demographics of those high performing migrants are representative of the US’s entire migrant population. If not, then it’s critically more accurate to say that some specific migrant groups are 6 times more productive than migrants elsewhere.
dang 6y ago
The submitted title broke the HN guidelines against editorializing titles. Cherry-picking a detail from an article and making that the title is a form of editorializing—the most common form, in fact. I've replaced it with the first sentence of the abstract, which does a slightly more accurate and neutral job of expressing what the article is about than the primary title does. "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
notahacker 6y ago
Also, the 'six times more productive' stat turns out to mean Math Olympiad medallists who migrate to the US are six times more likely to get a speaking slot at the International Congress of Mathematicians than people who stay at home; an impressive accomplishment but hardly what most people would call 'productivity'. On the slightly less arcane measure of weighted academic citations, migrants to the US have twice as many as migrants to other countries, or four times as many as those who stay at home. Or put another way: moving to country with best funded and most prestigious research institutions turns out to be useful if you want a high-profile academic career

2ion 6y ago

This is not difficult, looking at the kind of migration e.g. Germany has in the millions. When taking averages and means of migrant KPI over the migrant population at large, any good will be cancelled out by the negative aspects of 3rd world pauper migration. Because the subpopulations are vastly differently sized. Any 1st world country with more tightly controlled migration should do better.

nostromo 6y ago

Edit: thanks to the mods for fixing the title. More productive in "knowledge production" according to "novel survey data" and "hand-curated life-histories of International Math Olympiad (IMO) medalists." The headline makes this sound like a broad finding, but in fact it’s very narrow.

TeeMassive 6y ago

I'm from Canada, and it is not surprising, especially when it comes to STEM fields. The thing most people do not get about immigrating to Canada is that it is VERY hard. Good luck getting here with no marketable skills or without being a refugee. As a White person who grew up in a White rural area, my peers simply didn't realize the value of education compared to what I've seen from immigrants and children of immigrants. This is also true in bigger cities now that I live those now. "I'll just get into a trade" was a common saying, fortunately I saw the lack of wisdom in that and studied CS.

orange_tee 6y ago

As always people on here bitching about the US. As an outsider one thing I find to be really good in the US is inclusion. Americans really don't know how backwards the rest of the world is. For example, I currently live in Germany. Germany is currently importing boatloads of Latino and South East Asian STEM workers. Now if you look at the structure of German companies two things stand out: 1. there is a huge disparity between management and workers and this is reflected also in the salaries 2. all management are German (99.9% ethnic with maybe one 3rd generation ethnic Slav/Turk) This situation is very likely true for most of Europe, except for maybe the UK. So of course migrants in the US are more productive. In most countries immigrants are imported to fill a niche and the glass ceiling is held firmly just above that niche. And let's not even talk about entrepreneurial opportunities for immigrants.

DetroitThrow 6y ago
Yes, I am always shocked to hear how "non-racist" Germany is when I have friends who failed to climb the corporate ladder their because of their Greek last name, as they were explicitly told by their coworkers. In America, they are doing well now as an executive at a F500.
- cameldrv 6y ago
  Having lived in Germany for a few years, I was pretty surprised by the level of casual racism. The level of casual anti-semitism in Poland was even more surprising.
  - piokoch 6y ago
    Interesting. I've checked [1] and it seems that number of antisemitic incidents in Poland is rather low (for instance is smaller than in Sweden, which has much smaller population), not to mention France, where number of incidents was 5 times bigger than in Poland. I am curious what is source of you information about Polish antisemitism. [1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overview-2009-2019 https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-overv...

kumarski 6y ago

On average, they have 2x to 6x the amount of electricity access in the USA to the countries they come from. Makes sense.

quickthrower2 6y ago

Title change? “Why U.S. Immigration Barriers Matter for the Global Advancement of Science”

Aunche 6y ago

The US has many of the most prestigious universities in the world. Relatively few citizens want to get into academia because our brightest minds would rather pursue more lucrative careers. As a result, our elite instructions end up recruiting the brightest minds from around the globe instead.

newacct583 6y ago

Title is using the wrong word. The paper is about "US Immigration Restrictions" and it's about knowledge workers, that is normal legal immigrants with visas (e.g. H1B, etc...). The term "migrant" is generally used to refer to unskilled workers entering the country to follow jobs in temporary or seasonal industries. Very often this therefore becomes a euphemism for "illegal immigrant". That's not what this paper is studying.

baybal2 6y ago

Measuring productivity in money is like measuring car's performance by its fuel consumption.

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semanticsbitch 6y ago

And in the US, they push you through a system that doesn't matter. You can get great grades and have goals and aspirations, but when skills don't matter, it is pointless to try. All that exists is nepotism and family, the latter which most people rely on. But most people don't even have that. America should read, "Don't bother trying unless you have family that will help and a dick to suck."

rapind 6y ago

Clickbait drivel.

jariel 6y ago

PISA standardized testing (I think 15 year olds) differentiates between migrants and non migrants. In the Anglosphere aka US, UK, Can, Au, Nz - migrants do only a little bit worse on standardized test than local kids, but once accommodating for income, migrants to a little better than local kids. Everywhere else, migrants to far below the regular average. Everywhere in Europe especially, they are far below. People don't often make this distinction but the Anglo world tends to be far more 'open'. If you can speak English, that's fine. In places like Germany and Sweden, irrespective of how educated someone might be, there are larger barriers to integration and migrants are often social outsiders. This isn't driven mostly by 'hate' or anything deeply nefarious, rather it's by strong association of 'in-group' dynamics. The Paradox is that in the US and even in the UK (i.e. Brexit) people are lambasted as 'xenophobic' by certain parts of the political spectrum when this is demonstrably false. UK/US are actually much more likely to believe in the economic value of migrants than elsewhere. They are generally welcoming places, however, due to larger rates of migration - much more existential discussions arise. Of course Anglosphere countries are also much more likley to be aspirational targets for migration in general (though it's clearly not always true: kids Maghreb especially want to got to France, and Germany/Sweden were popular among Syrian refugees).

vaidhy 6y ago

I have been having similar discussions with my friends. My key takeaway is that if you are in the top 5 or 10%, US is a great place for you. Every place is open and your hard work (and a bit of luck) will take you a long way up. However, if you are average, US sucks for you. There is just so much burden to just keep working, even more so, if you have family. Between lack of public transport, healthcare, exploitative workplace and strong victim blaming attitude, you carry on just hoping that your kids will become one of the top 10%. For every example of successful immigrant, I think about the thousands of farm workers and hard laborers who make a trip here, and struggle to make a good life. And yes, they make more money that they make in their homeland.. but that does not make their current situation better.

rayiner 6y ago
Are any of your friends immigrants in America? Because "public transportation" has never come up in any conversation I have had with an average immigrant. This is an anecdote but I think it's illustrative. I met a cab driver in Texas who immigrated from Morocco. He was extolling the virtues of Texas. He and his cab driver friends had been able to buy 3BR houses with pools on their cab driver incomes, put their kids in decent schools, etc. If you go to East Texas, you see tons of working class Latinos who work solid jobs in the booming oil and chemical industries there. It's not fancy, but you see brand new strip malls, shiny new pickup trucks, and big families everywhere. Tons of middle class prosperity among the immigrant population. I'm from Bangladesh, and while my parents immigrated to the U.S. under pretty good circumstances (my dad has a white collar job), not everyone in my family did. And their view of achieving "the American Dream" is very much in line with what this Moroccan cab driver was saying. They want a big house and good schools for their kids. America provides that, including to immigrants. 75% of lawful immigrants have health insurance, mostly through their employer, or through Medicare/Medicaid/ACA. (The rate is over 90% for native-born Americans.) The median size of a new house in the United States is over 2,600 square feet. (Half of Latinos own their own homes, despite a median age of just 30, over 14 years younger than the median age of whites.) The median price of a new car in America is $38,000. This is what most Americans, and most working-class immigrants to America, consider the "American Dream." "Public transportation" is something that only a minority of college-educated elite actually think is a good thing.