5 ms·

WebRTC is also a decent P2P data protocol, and to have a P2P protocol like that enshrined in IETF standards means that P2P is now considered a "normal" thing on

by api 6y ago

WebRTC is also a decent P2P data protocol, and to have a P2P protocol like that enshrined in IETF standards means that P2P is now considered a "normal" thing on the Internet. This in turn means that symmetric NAT will be considered sort of broken, which it should be as it is horrible for anything P2P or any novel protocol for that matter. Of course IPv6 is the ultimate long term solution.

taf2 6y ago
"Of course IPv6 is the ultimate long term solution." I feel like this is similar to "We'll have nuclear fusion in the next 30 years." :) However if you look at the graph from google - https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html maybe it'll be here sooner than we think...
- api 6y ago
  Nuclear fusion may be closer than you think too. We've been developing better and better superconductors that could yield more compact and more powerful electromagnets, which is a major bottleneck to making it practical. ITER is huge and fabulously expensive, but it's intended to be more of an experiment/testbed that happens to maybe generate some power. It's not intended to be a practical reactor.
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  It would be nice if they broke that chart down by AS numbers, as I suspect much of that is the mobile carriers. Here is some data [1] looks like about 27k AS numbers comprise all of the ipv6 usage. I stand corrected, looks like mostly mobile and Amazon for the US and then the rest is several other countries that are primarily using ipv6. [1] - https://www.cidr-report.org/v6/as2.0/#Aggs https://www.cidr-report.org/v6/as2.0/#Aggs
- solarkraft 6y ago
  Side note: Try browsing the internet v6-only. It's pretty eye opening.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  We've never had practical fusion. We used to have frictionless P2P with talk, ytalk, and similar chat tools. Then NAT came along and ruined everything.
  - api 6y ago
    True story: I was giving a talk on ZeroTier (I'm the original author/founder) at a university. After explaining some of the networking, a student raised his hand and asked me how it could transfer data between devices without a "cloud." This student didn't understand that it was possible for one device to talk to another device directly.
lazyjeff 6y ago
My understanding is that currently people set up a STUN/TURN server to relay WebRTC, so it's not really used as P2P but there is still some benefit to the protocol itself. To move to true P2P for WebRTC seems impossible, as even if 80% of web users were on IPv6 without NAT (and even 80% seems a bit hopeless at this point considering we've been transitioning to IPv6 for 20 years now), you'd still need a fallback configuration for the 20% that don't. There doesn't seem to be a feasible gradual transition strategy. This is not really my area of expertise, so I'd love to be proven wrong.
- api 6y ago
  STUN doesn't relay. It assists with P2P connection setup. TURN relays, and is intended as the path of last resort. The vast majority of WebRTC traffic is P2P.
  - tpetry 6y ago
    The vast webrtc traffic is in reality between a peer and a sfu (selective forwarding unit) on a server. There is almost none real p2p webrtc traffic happening in reality because most people don‘t have enough upload bandwidth to transmit their video to all participating peers.
    - SahAssar 6y ago
      > There is almost none real p2p webrtc traffic happening in reality because most people don‘t have enough upload bandwidth to transmit their video to all participating peers. Many providers choose to use SFU's even when not needed because they have features like recording that require it. I've gotten much better quality and latency on normal webrtc than I have over slack, teams, hangouts, even over bad mobile networks.
    - zurn 6y ago
      Most human interaction where videoconferencing applies happens in small groups.
    - api 6y ago

by api 6y ago

taf2 6y ago

"Of course IPv6 is the ultimate long term solution." I feel like this is similar to "We'll have nuclear fusion in the next 30 years." :) However if you look at the graph from google - https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html maybe it'll be here sooner than we think...

api 6y ago
Nuclear fusion may be closer than you think too. We've been developing better and better superconductors that could yield more compact and more powerful electromagnets, which is a major bottleneck to making it practical. ITER is huge and fabulously expensive, but it's intended to be more of an experiment/testbed that happens to maybe generate some power. It's not intended to be a practical reactor.
LinuxBender 6y ago
It would be nice if they broke that chart down by AS numbers, as I suspect much of that is the mobile carriers. Here is some data [1] looks like about 27k AS numbers comprise all of the ipv6 usage. I stand corrected, looks like mostly mobile and Amazon for the US and then the rest is several other countries that are primarily using ipv6. [1] - https://www.cidr-report.org/v6/as2.0/#Aggs https://www.cidr-report.org/v6/as2.0/#Aggs
solarkraft 6y ago
Side note: Try browsing the internet v6-only. It's pretty eye opening.
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
We've never had practical fusion. We used to have frictionless P2P with talk, ytalk, and similar chat tools. Then NAT came along and ruined everything.
- api 6y ago
  True story: I was giving a talk on ZeroTier (I'm the original author/founder) at a university. After explaining some of the networking, a student raised his hand and asked me how it could transfer data between devices without a "cloud." This student didn't understand that it was possible for one device to talk to another device directly.

lazyjeff 6y ago

My understanding is that currently people set up a STUN/TURN server to relay WebRTC, so it's not really used as P2P but there is still some benefit to the protocol itself. To move to true P2P for WebRTC seems impossible, as even if 80% of web users were on IPv6 without NAT (and even 80% seems a bit hopeless at this point considering we've been transitioning to IPv6 for 20 years now), you'd still need a fallback configuration for the 20% that don't. There doesn't seem to be a feasible gradual transition strategy. This is not really my area of expertise, so I'd love to be proven wrong.

api 6y ago
STUN doesn't relay. It assists with P2P connection setup. TURN relays, and is intended as the path of last resort. The vast majority of WebRTC traffic is P2P.
- tpetry 6y ago
  The vast webrtc traffic is in reality between a peer and a sfu (selective forwarding unit) on a server. There is almost none real p2p webrtc traffic happening in reality because most people don‘t have enough upload bandwidth to transmit their video to all participating peers.
  - SahAssar 6y ago
    > There is almost none real p2p webrtc traffic happening in reality because most people don‘t have enough upload bandwidth to transmit their video to all participating peers. Many providers choose to use SFU's even when not needed because they have features like recording that require it. I've gotten much better quality and latency on normal webrtc than I have over slack, teams, hangouts, even over bad mobile networks.
  - zurn 6y ago
    Most human interaction where videoconferencing applies happens in small groups.
  - api 6y ago