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I recently was gifted -- very, very generously! -- a Moonlander Mark I split, ortholinear keyboard [0] (made by the same company that previously made the Ergodo

I recently was gifted -- very, very generously! -- a Moonlander Mark I split, ortholinear keyboard [0] (made by the same company that previously made the Ergodox). It's genuinely fantastic, and I can't ever see myself going back to either a non-split or a non-ortholinear board as my desktop's input. It's a huge improvement ergonomically -- (0) no hunched shoulders, with the halves at shoulder width (1) the ortholinear layout results in much more natural-feeling finger motions and (2) the ability to "tent" the individual halves is also wonderful, for not having to twist your wrist out of its natural somewhat-diagonal position. Beyond that, the ability to easily modify up to 32 layers of functionality [1], with macros, really is astonishingly useful once set up to your personal workflow. If I were to lose it, I'd order a replacement immediately. Highly recommend, for anyone who can justify the board's price -- I'm normally fairly frugal, so the fact that I consider a $400 keyboard anything except an egregious waste of money really speaks to how much I like this device. [0]: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ [1]: https://www.zsa.io/oryx/ https://www.zsa.io/oryx/

winrid 6y ago
Has anyone tried this and the Freestyle Pro and have a preference?
piinecone 6y ago
I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been using a Kinesis Advantage and a Mistel Barocco (when traveling) for years. I recently switched to the Moonlander and I love it. Coming from the Kinesis Advantage the adaptation period is short, and since the moonlander is so easy to program I didn’t really have to adjust my habits. If anything, I’m trying to learn that I can use its programmability to my advantage to make my life easier. I’m also very happy that it’s hot swappable, so I can start experimenting with different switches.
- ashkankiani 6y ago
  Why would you switch to the moonlander from the Kinesis? The curved design of the kinesis is way better for reducing strain than the flat style of the moonlander/ergodox. If the only factor is programmability, then I think that factor may be overexaggerated in how important it is. Know that anyone who wants to riposte that last point should realize that I'm not a novice to making my own keyboards or programming them. While layers seem like a good idea, it's very difficult to actually come up with enough usecases to find them more useful than just the ability to remap keys and record macros, both of which the Kinesis Advantage 2 can already do. I also find having two separate pieces a bit annoying since I'll tend to want to fidget with them instead.
  - dsissitka 6y ago
    > Why would you switch to the moonlander from the Kinesis? QMK. I think QMK is a bit like Excel in that everybody has that subset of functionality they use. I like layers and the leader key. Open source firmware. I have a last gen Advantage I can't use because there's a bug in the firmware that causes modifier keys to stick and there's nobody left at Kinesis that remembers how to work on it. That will never happen with QMK. Hot swappable switches. Edit: I do miss the curve though. I'm using SA Profile keycaps [0] and while they're nice it's not quite the same. [0] https://imgur.com/EZgGBdg https://imgur.com/EZgGBdg
    - secure 6y ago
      My https://github.com/kinx-project/kint https://github.com/kinx-project/kint project is a replacement keyboard controller for the Kinesis Advantage keyboards, which allows you to use QMK :)
      - dsissitka 6y ago
        Nice, thank you! :)
        ashkankiani 6y ago
        Yeah this is what I was going to say. There are a few projects which allow one to swap out the firmware for a custom one on Advantage Kinesis keyboards. There's one with a teensy, one with a custom controller. It's not exactly trivial to do, but I think it is the ultimate if you want to go that route. The hardware design of the Kinesis is top tier, but the software is a bit weak.
  - CyberDildonics 6y ago
    The kinesis is great in my opinion, but the two sides are not far enough apart. A little is better than nothing, but you still have to position your hands forward, stretched out in front of you.
  - Syzygies 6y ago
surfsvammel 6y ago
I have the same board and I am generally happy with it. There is one warning I’d like to make though; I have fairly small hands and I feel that my hands have to reach more using this keyboard than with other split keyboards I’ve used. It’s purely anecdotal though, because I have done some measuring and cannot actually find that there is any significant difference in distance between keys compared to my old keyboard. So, there must be something else at the root of that feeling. It is, however, something I’ve heard from others as well. In general though, it is a great keyboard. It is expensive, compared to off the shelf Logitech and Microsoft boards, but seen as a the main tool I use for getting my job done, it’s no cost to pay.
- gundmc 6y ago
  I have smaller hands as well and have adapted well to the Moonlander. I have found that I prefer to keep the thumb cluster tilted upwards to reduce the distance to my space/return keys. Unfortunately this means I can't use the tenting since that requires the thumb cluster to tilt down and act as one of the legs. That's my only real gripe so far.
  - flurdy 6y ago
    I have smaller hands as well and I do tent it slightly but then I only use the first "piano" key regularly [1]. The others on the thumb cluster are for layer keys. My only gripe is that you can't negative tilt it, which I prefer when standing. I do love my Moonlander though. * [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/rOjGj/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/rOjGj/la...
- badlucklottery 6y ago
  > I have fairly small hands and I feel that my hands have to reach more using this keyboard than with other split keyboards I’ve used The Moonlander has a lot of key rows for a "flat" keyboard so there's going to be some reaching if you use them all. I have relatively large/long hands and coming from a Kinesis Advantage (which has a similar number of rows) it was a lot of reaching for the top and bottom rows, especially the corner keys. I ended up putting a lot more keycodes on layers to get around it. But I ended up building a Bastyl last month: https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl#tab-description https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl#tab-description I still get QMK and the true split design (which helps with my shoulders) but I also get the curved keywells back so I can hit everything on the keyboard pretty easily. I did lose that bottom row but I just pushed the useful keys to the thumb cluster.
matsemann 6y ago
> It's a huge improvement ergonomically But what if you need to use a mouse? Then what I've found best ergonomically is to use a "rollermouse". But I don't feel that works well with a split keyboard, and then I prioritize the mouse. (For me my elbow is the biggest issue)
- soenkeliebau 6y ago
  Personally I think a mouse is not replaceable by anything else that even gives remotely the same productivity. What can be improved is how often you have to reach for your mouse and how much your hands have to move on the keyboard. I have personally switched to a tiling window manager that allows me to do much with the keyboard, added the surfingkeys plugin to chrome to allow the same when browsing and switched to using the neo2 keyboard layout (this is for Germans, Dvorak or something similar might be better for you). The combination of these factors has massively improved how much I need to reach for the mouse throughout the day.
  - Timpy 6y ago
    I agree with this. I wrote a script that will focus my most commonly used windows with keyboard shortcuts. Super+F for Firefox, Super+T for terminal, Super+S for Spotify, and so on. Between this, vim, Surfing Keys for Firefox, and just an interest in learning keyboard shortcuts I have mostly eliminated the mouse. I still use it when it's the right tool for the job, but I can get by with far less mousing these days.
- shiftpgdn 6y ago
  I found what caused my RSI was going from keyboard to mouse over and over. Getting a keyboard with a trackpoint so I could keep my hands static fixed it. I would eventually like to get a split keyboard with the thumb trackpoint.
- Kototama 6y ago
  I put the mouse between the two parts of my Ergodox. It decreases the elbow movements and the tension. You can also program the keyboard to control the mouse pointer but I found it not practical.
soenkeliebau 6y ago
I have looked at that keyboard a lot and am really tempted to splurge, but .. What is putting me of is the missing dedicated cursor keys at the bottom right. I use a layout on my current keyboard that has cursor keys on e,s,d,f with a modifier and use that a lot, but not exclusively.. I have the same issue with the ultimate hacking keyboard and others. Has that bothered you at all, or did you find a layout that works for you and keeps the cursor keys?
- Symbiote 6y ago
  The Moonlander (and most of the ones being discussed) is fully programmable, so you can move the keys around as you wish. I have ← ↑ ↓ → in a line on the four lower keys on the right of my ErgoDash. Not having the ⊥ arrangement took a little time to get used to. I considered some fancy QMK (keyboard firmware) hacking to keep the inverted T, and have the key above ↓ change between Z and ↑ depending on the keypress before, but decided it wouldn't be practical. However, the Z is for Dvorak. A Qwerty layout, where it would be /, might cause less trouble.
  - soenkeliebau 6y ago
    I've looked at a few Moonlander setups for the keyboard layout that I use on their site [1][2][3] and to my mind the right half is simply missing one column of keys to get a proper cursor key block. Even the lying-L option ─┘ would mean missing the right shift key (which of course should probably be on the thumb block) and getting used to something different. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but for me being from Germany the keyboard is even more expensive than it is anyway and I'm not sure I'm willing to pay that much for the hope that I can adjust to it. [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/la... [2] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/la... [3] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/la...
    - Symbiote 6y ago
barnacled 6y ago
This really seems like a kinesis advantage but split which is cool. I own an advantage 2 and it has really helped with RSI. Personally I prefer a single unit so it's ideal for me! It makes such a difference to have everything comfortably laid out at shoulder width.

winrid 6y ago

Has anyone tried this and the Freestyle Pro and have a preference?

piinecone 6y ago

I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been using a Kinesis Advantage and a Mistel Barocco (when traveling) for years. I recently switched to the Moonlander and I love it. Coming from the Kinesis Advantage the adaptation period is short, and since the moonlander is so easy to program I didn’t really have to adjust my habits. If anything, I’m trying to learn that I can use its programmability to my advantage to make my life easier. I’m also very happy that it’s hot swappable, so I can start experimenting with different switches.

ashkankiani 6y ago
Why would you switch to the moonlander from the Kinesis? The curved design of the kinesis is way better for reducing strain than the flat style of the moonlander/ergodox. If the only factor is programmability, then I think that factor may be overexaggerated in how important it is. Know that anyone who wants to riposte that last point should realize that I'm not a novice to making my own keyboards or programming them. While layers seem like a good idea, it's very difficult to actually come up with enough usecases to find them more useful than just the ability to remap keys and record macros, both of which the Kinesis Advantage 2 can already do. I also find having two separate pieces a bit annoying since I'll tend to want to fidget with them instead.
- dsissitka 6y ago
  > Why would you switch to the moonlander from the Kinesis? QMK. I think QMK is a bit like Excel in that everybody has that subset of functionality they use. I like layers and the leader key. Open source firmware. I have a last gen Advantage I can't use because there's a bug in the firmware that causes modifier keys to stick and there's nobody left at Kinesis that remembers how to work on it. That will never happen with QMK. Hot swappable switches. Edit: I do miss the curve though. I'm using SA Profile keycaps [0] and while they're nice it's not quite the same. [0] https://imgur.com/EZgGBdg https://imgur.com/EZgGBdg
  - secure 6y ago
    My https://github.com/kinx-project/kint https://github.com/kinx-project/kint project is a replacement keyboard controller for the Kinesis Advantage keyboards, which allows you to use QMK :)
    - dsissitka 6y ago
      Nice, thank you! :)
      - ashkankiani 6y ago
        Yeah this is what I was going to say. There are a few projects which allow one to swap out the firmware for a custom one on Advantage Kinesis keyboards. There's one with a teensy, one with a custom controller. It's not exactly trivial to do, but I think it is the ultimate if you want to go that route. The hardware design of the Kinesis is top tier, but the software is a bit weak.
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  The kinesis is great in my opinion, but the two sides are not far enough apart. A little is better than nothing, but you still have to position your hands forward, stretched out in front of you.
- Syzygies 6y ago

surfsvammel 6y ago

I have the same board and I am generally happy with it. There is one warning I’d like to make though; I have fairly small hands and I feel that my hands have to reach more using this keyboard than with other split keyboards I’ve used. It’s purely anecdotal though, because I have done some measuring and cannot actually find that there is any significant difference in distance between keys compared to my old keyboard. So, there must be something else at the root of that feeling. It is, however, something I’ve heard from others as well. In general though, it is a great keyboard. It is expensive, compared to off the shelf Logitech and Microsoft boards, but seen as a the main tool I use for getting my job done, it’s no cost to pay.

gundmc 6y ago
I have smaller hands as well and have adapted well to the Moonlander. I have found that I prefer to keep the thumb cluster tilted upwards to reduce the distance to my space/return keys. Unfortunately this means I can't use the tenting since that requires the thumb cluster to tilt down and act as one of the legs. That's my only real gripe so far.
- flurdy 6y ago
  I have smaller hands as well and I do tent it slightly but then I only use the first "piano" key regularly [1]. The others on the thumb cluster are for layer keys. My only gripe is that you can't negative tilt it, which I prefer when standing. I do love my Moonlander though. * [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/rOjGj/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/rOjGj/la...
badlucklottery 6y ago
> I have fairly small hands and I feel that my hands have to reach more using this keyboard than with other split keyboards I’ve used The Moonlander has a lot of key rows for a "flat" keyboard so there's going to be some reaching if you use them all. I have relatively large/long hands and coming from a Kinesis Advantage (which has a similar number of rows) it was a lot of reaching for the top and bottom rows, especially the corner keys. I ended up putting a lot more keycodes on layers to get around it. But I ended up building a Bastyl last month: https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl#tab-description https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl#tab-description I still get QMK and the true split design (which helps with my shoulders) but I also get the curved keywells back so I can hit everything on the keyboard pretty easily. I did lose that bottom row but I just pushed the useful keys to the thumb cluster.

matsemann 6y ago

> It's a huge improvement ergonomically But what if you need to use a mouse? Then what I've found best ergonomically is to use a "rollermouse". But I don't feel that works well with a split keyboard, and then I prioritize the mouse. (For me my elbow is the biggest issue)

soenkeliebau 6y ago
Personally I think a mouse is not replaceable by anything else that even gives remotely the same productivity. What can be improved is how often you have to reach for your mouse and how much your hands have to move on the keyboard. I have personally switched to a tiling window manager that allows me to do much with the keyboard, added the surfingkeys plugin to chrome to allow the same when browsing and switched to using the neo2 keyboard layout (this is for Germans, Dvorak or something similar might be better for you). The combination of these factors has massively improved how much I need to reach for the mouse throughout the day.
- Timpy 6y ago
  I agree with this. I wrote a script that will focus my most commonly used windows with keyboard shortcuts. Super+F for Firefox, Super+T for terminal, Super+S for Spotify, and so on. Between this, vim, Surfing Keys for Firefox, and just an interest in learning keyboard shortcuts I have mostly eliminated the mouse. I still use it when it's the right tool for the job, but I can get by with far less mousing these days.
shiftpgdn 6y ago
I found what caused my RSI was going from keyboard to mouse over and over. Getting a keyboard with a trackpoint so I could keep my hands static fixed it. I would eventually like to get a split keyboard with the thumb trackpoint.
Kototama 6y ago
I put the mouse between the two parts of my Ergodox. It decreases the elbow movements and the tension. You can also program the keyboard to control the mouse pointer but I found it not practical.

soenkeliebau 6y ago

I have looked at that keyboard a lot and am really tempted to splurge, but .. What is putting me of is the missing dedicated cursor keys at the bottom right. I use a layout on my current keyboard that has cursor keys on e,s,d,f with a modifier and use that a lot, but not exclusively.. I have the same issue with the ultimate hacking keyboard and others. Has that bothered you at all, or did you find a layout that works for you and keeps the cursor keys?

Symbiote 6y ago
The Moonlander (and most of the ones being discussed) is fully programmable, so you can move the keys around as you wish. I have ← ↑ ↓ → in a line on the four lower keys on the right of my ErgoDash. Not having the ⊥ arrangement took a little time to get used to. I considered some fancy QMK (keyboard firmware) hacking to keep the inverted T, and have the key above ↓ change between Z and ↑ depending on the keypress before, but decided it wouldn't be practical. However, the Z is for Dvorak. A Qwerty layout, where it would be /, might cause less trouble.
- soenkeliebau 6y ago
  I've looked at a few Moonlander setups for the keyboard layout that I use on their site [1][2][3] and to my mind the right half is simply missing one column of keys to get a proper cursor key block. Even the lying-L option ─┘ would mean missing the right shift key (which of course should probably be on the thumb block) and getting used to something different. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but for me being from Germany the keyboard is even more expensive than it is anyway and I'm not sure I'm willing to pay that much for the hope that I can adjust to it. [1] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/mzD9d/la... [2] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/60ynN/la... [3] https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/moonlander/layouts/jXjMx/la...
  - Symbiote 6y ago

barnacled 6y ago

This really seems like a kinesis advantage but split which is cool. I own an advantage 2 and it has really helped with RSI. Personally I prefer a single unit so it's ideal for me! It makes such a difference to have everything comfortably laid out at shoulder width.