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Bryan Fogel on why streaming platforms were scared of releasing The Dissident
- 4gotunameagain 6y agoFacebook blatantly allowing the manipulation of politics. Twitter / youtube deciding what the people can talk about. Now netflix refusing content exposing a brazen crime with global implications. For how long will we allow non elected superentities control our lives?
- qeternity 6y ago> For how long will we allow non elected superentities control our lives? ...you say, freely commenting on a site, that is freely discussing another site that is openly reporting on the fact that Netflix are doing this. The mere fact that you know that this documentary exists and that Netflix is passing on it due to geopolitical influence I think is proof that Netflix is not controlling our lives?
- newsclues 6y agoMy mom doesn’t read hacker news. She didn’t see this film on the streaming services she pays for. She didn’t see it on the tv news or hear about it on the radio. Is my mother’s life controlled and I’ve hacked my way to freedom?
- felipemnoa 6y agoTell her about it. She will tell her friends. Streisand effect...
- zarkov99 6y agoOh yes, everything is fine, because HN is not censoring some anonymous reader. Come on. Control over information might be the defining issue of this century. The danger is real and existencial and as a society we are completely unprepared to meet it.
- qeternity 6y agoMy point isn’t that HN is fine, my point is that the internet is literally filled with places to engage in free discussion. You’re worried that people won’t do that and that if they don’t, we should somehow force some Big Tech Co to indoctrinate them with an agenda that you find agreeable. Just because most people elect to use a service despite having gobs of alternatives doesn’t make that service a monopoly.
- zarkov99 6y agoForget what I find agreeable or not, that is not the point. The point is that this movie, which in all likelihood would have done quite well, was supressed from netflix for political reasons. This supression will have a huge impact on the film's reach and therefore greatly reduced it's impact. The fact that netflix is now a political agent, with the power to manipulate a giant audience for inscrutable but likely very ugly reasons should worry us all. This is a dangerous state of affairs that should not be reflexively shrugged off just because the wrong tribe complained about it first. This is coming for us all.
- falcor84 6y ago> For how long will we allow non elected superentities control our lives? What does that even mean? Who is it who's allowing or not allowing a media company to control people's lives?
- cbozeman 6y agoIt means people are scared enough of "Big Tech" to actually defend Donald Trump, which is what Angela Merkel did. When he was banned from Twitter and YouTube and Facebook, they all perked up... because they realized, "That could be me..." If these companies can ban the most powerful human on the planet, they know they could be next, the moment they end up in the crosshairs.
- Bakary 6y agoMerkel made those statements because Germany has a specific cultural attitude towards censorship and privacy considering their own history.
- caymanjim 6y agoWhat's your solution? Forcing Netflix to purchase and distribute content they don't want? Do we just force Netflix, or do we force every media company to host it? Who makes that decision? Want to vote? Stop using Facebook, stop using Twitter, stop using Netflix. The film is available for streaming elsewhere. Go watch it.
- cbozeman 6y agoA documentary about a journalist being murdered because he criticized a truly legitimately shit regime. A documentary that almost everyone who watched it says is borderline child pornography. Guess which one was on Netflix and which one wasn't.
- nkurz 6y agoI'm not sure how it affects your argument, but in the interest of accuracy (and presuming I haven't missed hearing about another controversial documentary) I'll mention that "Cuties" is not a documentary, but a fictional feature film. I haven't seen either.
- marcinzm 6y agoWant a solution? Have the government fund public broadcasting and communication sites like in various other countries. Wait, you don't want the government to see and control all your information and communication? But you also don't want private companies to do so? edit: As for de-centralized approaches, imho those don't work great when you want creators to make money rather than simply having everyone pirate the movie.
- racl101 6y agoI know one way to not support a company.
- tootie 6y agoThis is not at all equivalent though. Netflix isn't refusing to allow this on their platform, they just weren't willing to pay for it. Fogle could post his video on youtube and it wouldn't be a problem. He wants to be paid millions of dollars to get a big distribution deal. That's squarely a privilege and not a right.
- Bakary 6y agoIf you are not wealthy enough to no longer have to work, your employer already controls more than a third of your life, and exerts all sorts of peripheral control through all the pressures necessary to maintain a specific job (location, social trail, etc.). Comparatively, what you describe seems like a non-issue
- purephase 6y agoIt's sadly not the first time that Netflix has avoided controversy with MBS: https://realmoney.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/netflix-courts-backlash-after-conceding-to-saudi-crown-on-content-14823066 https://realmoney.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/netflix-cou... It's sad, but in a way, this type of censorship tends to increase interest in the content, so hopefully this happens here. The Khashoggi murder is one of the most blatently horrible incidents in the last few years that should be discussed at length and those responsible actually held responsible. I'd never heard of the film, but now I am definitely going to check it out.
- sandworm101 6y ago>> one of the most blatently horrible incidents For all the horror, this was still only one person, one victim, killed. There are a great many other incidents in which large numbers of people have been deliberately killed yet we seem to just take such things as normal. The specifics of Khashoggi's murder were shocking, but the murder or disappearance of such persons is far from unusual on the world stage. Fyi, a similar Saudi kill team was recently intercepted at a Canadian airport. Such attempts at murder barely make news, only coming to light via lawsuits months later. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-55232926 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-55232926 "The court filing says the group - which included a man from the same department as the man accused of dismembering Khashoggi - were carrying two bags of forensic tools. However, Canadian border agents "quickly became suspicious" of the group and refused them entry after interviewing them, it says." https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/saudi-hit-squad-aljabri-1.5676650 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/saudi-hit-squad-aljab... "Public Safety Minister Bill Blair would not comment on the specific allegations in the lawsuit but said the government was aware of incidents in which foreign actors have tried to monitor, intimidate or threaten Canadians and people in Canada."
- purephase 6y agoI'm not saying that there aren't other good examples. But, to target a US journalist like this, at a foreign embassy where there are recordings, logs of people entering and leaving (with visitor logs) where you could conceivably find those responsible and run it up the chain for accountabiliity is the rare element here that could and should be used. If we actually start to make an example here, that this is not acceptable in our society, then perhaps others will feel less emboldened to do the same.
- slumdev 6y agoNetflix, the streaming service that mainstreamed child sexual exploitation, is now shy of controversy. From IMDB's content advisory on "Cuties": "Frequent scenes of 11-year-old girls dancing lewdly where the camera pans in and zooms in on the children's buttocks and midsections (both still in skin-tight clothes) Close up shots of the girls dancing with their leg spread above their head while camera focus on crotch area. These views are fairly frequent, but brief."
- mschuster91 6y agoThere's "controversy that is mostly a Twitter/arts critique outrage" that won't cost you much business, and there's "controversy that can lead entire countries from blocking you out". Most people will never hear about, much less react upon, the "Cuties" issue, so the business risk was relatively low.
- slumdev 6y agoWhat unmitigated cowardice! If a company chooses to offend only when there's little risk to the bottom line, they're not a brave cultural vanguard. They're the establishment hiding under an "edgy" patina.
- ViViDboarder 6y agoHave any of these companies ever claimed to be edgy though? I feel like this is par for the course with all American businesses.
- slumdev 6y agoDo you mean to tell me that the "Praise Satan!" streaming service isn't desperately trying to be edgy? https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/11/the-chilling-adventures-of-sabrina-holiday-episode https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/11/the-chilling-ad...
- ceejayoz 6y agoYou could put a similar content warning on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Miss_Sunshine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Miss_Sunshine, but it'd entirely miss the point of the film.
- mna8333 6y agoNot all 'human rights' and 'freedom of speech' are equal. It matters foremost what is there to gain/lose. In this case its streaming services
- eunos 6y ago'human rights' and 'freedom of speech' are just tools to undermine Geopolitical competitors.
- tartoran 6y agoI hope this will pick up some Streisand effect and soon every American will have seen this documentary. I don’t blame Netflix a lot for not picking this up, they are probably to lose a lot of money if they do.
- MikusR 6y agoIt costs 20$. Are you going to sponsor it?
- MikusR 6y agoEven Youtube, Vimeo and Peertube? Besides a simple Google search brings a free one on Youtube made by Deutche Welle.
- mkl95 6y agoMany comments are mentioning Netflix. It's worth mentioning Amazon and Apple have rejected it too. Edit: Apple and Amazon seem to have picked up the documentary since the time of the interview.
- 1wd 6y agoSeems to be available on Amazon. (And worth watching!)
- spaetzleesser 6y agoI watched it on Apple TV.
- Hoasi 6y agoBryan Fogel, the director, explains his disappointment that his documentary is not part of the regular subscription on (AppleTV, Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc.) streaming services here: https://open.spotify.com/episode/15p3DpjZeaXCwcXyGTytMj https://open.spotify.com/episode/15p3DpjZeaXCwcXyGTytMj?
- cbozeman 6y agoI'll have to listen to this episode.
- codetrotter 6y agoI saw this movie recently and just wanted to say I highly recommend taking the time to watch it. The official website has a list of paid services that you can watch it on https://thedissident.com/ https://thedissident.com/ You will also be able to find it elsewhere
- Rapzid 6y agoSite seems busted for me. EDIT: It's available for rent on Amazon Prime Video for anyone interested.
- tootie 6y agoI can believe it's a well-made production, but I'm curious if it has been verified for accuracy or it actually uncovered any new details.
- olemaga 6y agoDoes not seem available in Europe?
- boring_twenties 6y agoWow. It's been more than one decade since I've seen a website so terrible. Anyone know if it's possible to purchase this movie outside of the streaming services? For example, as a Bluray disc, or simply an unencumbered video file?
- shadowprofile77 6y agocough.. torrent it... cough.
- boring_twenties 6y agoThat is an option but hopefully a last resort.
- mountainb 6y agoThe bigger issue related to this is not the Khashoggi was tortured to death and dismembered, but that America's alliance with Saudi Arabia is both immoral and strategically stupid. However, Saudi Arabia's corrupt grip on our ruling class is so thorough that it is able to suppress speech like this that might make the Saudi government look even slightly bad. We never get to the point to which the Saudi alliance is questioned at a fundamental level. The motte and bailey style 'debate' stays in the realm of whether or not the Khashoggi murder was bad, or on some other irrelevant side issue of the Saudi government's conduct. The problem, essentially, is our military alliance with Saudi Arabia. This is almost never debated. Only side issues such as Saudi women not being allowed to drive or Saudi use of the death penalty are ever allowed to be raised. It's considered 'unserious' to question the iron security guarantee that our republic provides to this royal family. Saudi Arabia could turn 1 million Kahsoggis into meatballs and the American Op-Ed-Oligarchy would be unwilling to question the fundamental diplomatic issue of America's alliance with Saudi Arabia. We have already tested this commitment when a couple dozen Saudi nationals blew up the World Trade Center twice and the alliance with Saudi Arabia only strengthened as a response. This would be like Gavrilo Princip killing Franz Ferdinand and the Habsburgs responding by increasing foreign and military aid to Serbia, encouraging Serbia to blow up more of its neighbors, then going to war on behalf of Serbia multiple times to increase its power and influence. 27D chess or corrupt-stupid-evil; you decide.
- humbleMouse 6y agoCan’t question the isreal alliance either, some things are just off topic.
- vagrantJin 6y agoHaha. It seems you have hit the nail on the head with exacting precision
- cbozeman 6y agoThat one is a lot stickier, because no one tried to systematically wipe out the Saudi people. Hundreds of thousands of Saudis didn't immigrate here to escape certain death. There's also the fact that America is still a very religious country - and takes it seriously - so many people support Israel because they really do believe they're protecting God's chosen people. No one should "wish" for war, but I've often wondered what would happen if Saudi Arabia decided to wage war against Israel. I'm very curious with whom America would ultimately side.
- HenryBemis 6y agoI liked reading books since when I was 12. I would read anything challenging, even if I wouldn't understanding. I was also reading books of lyrics. I remember reading lyrics of Metallica, Iron Maiden, Sex Pistols songs, way before I actually listen to their music. That gave me an appreciation of the words/meaning. On the Sex Pistol's song "God Save The Queen" they sang: "God save the queen 'Cause tourists are money And our figurehead Is not what she seems" I am not discussing the political aspect on the governing systems (Kingdom vs Anarchy), but the phrase "cause tourists are money" has so much wisdom in it. In modern 'american' language we would say "money talks, BS walks". Just like NBA shat up and rolled over (oh yes they did) for China, Netflix (and the likes) do for Saudi Arabia. There was a discussion a couple of days ago regarding users migrating from WhatsApp to Signal/Telegram and how "a few friends" declined, forcing the "many" to either ostracize them, or stick to WhatsApp. MBS/Saudi Arabia do the same. If you want us, shut up and keep the status quo (murder, rape, inequality, torture). They got trillions of $. Wegot two options. Shut up and roll over (Netflix, NBA), or isolate them and allow them to develop similar/close services. The third option that "slowly they will join us".. well.. how slowly is slowly? 1 year? 5? 100? never? I fear they (SA/MBS) will always be 100 years behind this 'democratic' curve.
- cbozeman 6y agoProbably about 25-35 years. That's about how long we can subsist on current proven oil reserves given the amount and given the yearly consumption of oil and accounting for usage increase and fluctuations. Which is another way of saying we have 25-35 years to get electric cars up and running and to really "solve" the alternative energy crisis. This is why we need to be pouring massive amounts of money into fusion power research, because if we can crack that nut, we're set. Or hey, maybe never. Look at other Middle Eastern nations.
- hnarn 6y agoPresumably the only effect this will have is that ideologically inclined netizens will now start seeding it on your nearest public torrent tracker instead. While not ideal, I’m happy we still have a free enough internet that these types of rebellions are possible, regardless of what you may think of the legal implications thereof.
- slg 6y agoI'm not sure I believe the claims that companies were afraid of this documentary for its content. For example you can rent or buy this movie on Amazon[1] or Apple[2]. If those companies were afraid of the content, that wouldn't have happened. The more likely excuse is that it is a niche documentary that didn't have enough financial upside to merit purchasing exclusive distribution rights and "Here is a documentary they don't want you to see" is great for marketing. [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Dissident-Jamal-Kashoggi/dp/B08QTQFNT5 https://www.amazon.com/Dissident-Jamal-Kashoggi/dp/B08QTQFNT... [2] - https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/the-dissident/id1544151386 https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/the-dissident/id1544151386
- Ericson2314 6y agoI'm pretty sure allowing it be rented for extra money, but not bundling it with the rest, is also consistent with effective censorship + plausibile deniability. See https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/13/business/media/apple-gawker-tim-cook.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/13/business/media/apple-gawk..., they are quite open about censoring things.
- slg 6y agoIt is annoying to see the cheapening of the word "censorship" recently. It isn't censorship when a private company makes internal decisions about the content it wants to produce. It certainly isn't censorship when a company will share content on its platform but refuses to buy exclusive rights to the project. Apple and Amazon are facilitating people watching this movie. If MBS was going to retaliate for it, I don't think "it is only up for rental" is going to be a convincing excuse. Also since you bring up the extra fee that this costs, I want to highlight the price. The distributors set the price at $20 for a rental. That is their decision not Apple's or Amazons. If they wanted this movie to seen by as many people as possible, lowering that price is going to do a lot more good than complaining to Variety. That $20 price makes me think the reason this is for rent on Amazon and not free with Prime is because the price tag would have been too high to justify purchasing exclusivity.
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- chokeartist 6y agoI watched the movie. It highlighted to me how over the top the effort was, when I previously did not appreciate how exotic and ridiculous the killing actually was. No wonder the Saudis did not like this movie.
- godelzilla 6y agoThe empire is supporting a dystopian nightmare of a "kingdom", a genocide in Yemen, a world war against Iran and many other garbage policies for the sake of these disgusting tyrants. Of course it would oppose this movie.
- idownvoted 6y agoSomewhere in Ankara, a not-so-slightly fascist is giggling hard. To have the west's narrative-forming-class believe the fairy tale of Kashoggi as a fighter for free speech is quite an achievement, as the only reason Kashoggi got to be a politically critical journalist in Saudi-Arabia was that he was an upper class guy, heir to millions of USDs - and like many in this socio-economic group a big fan / member of the Muslim Brotherhood (as means to overthrow the only class that sits on top of them). Yeah, just an ordinary freedom fighter who is best buddies with Erdogan. Right...
- angst_ridden 6y agoAh, so he believed something questionable. He clearly deserved to be cut up with bone saws.
- noarchy 6y agoSo is this the narrative that is being pushed by pro-MBS astroturfers?
- angst_ridden 6y agoI mean, look at how much Saudi venture capital - and MBS himself - is involved in Silicon Valley. https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/1/18511540/silicon-valley-foreign-money-china-saudi-arabia-cfius-firrma-geopolitics-venture-capital https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/1/18511540/silicon-valley-...
- antoniuschan99 6y agoThe dissident was a good movie! I just watched A Thousand Cuts over the weekend. It’s about Dutertes war against the Press and Maria Ressa. https://youtu.be/LixnwDIh2wU https://youtu.be/LixnwDIh2wU
- jgalt212 6y agoWhen one lowers existing barriers to global trade, new barriers become enacted. The Law of Conservation of Barriers.
- sunstone 6y agoThere's nothing to stop the Biden administration from buying this and putting it in the public domain. That would be poetic justice.