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> And that's just the Salamander version. Feed in a different strip of ticker tape and now you're looking at your very self emerge. You may think humans are m

> And that's just the Salamander version. Feed in a different strip of ticker tape and now you're looking at your very self emerge. You may think humans are more amazing than salamanders, but no other species agrees with you.

steve_adams_86 6y ago
I hear you, but it seems neat that our ticker tape yields a meat bag that likes to send rockets to other hunks of rock in a giant cold vacuum (for example). Salamanders on a cosmic scale are probably difficult to distinguish from humans – just more bundles of cellular automata that share more in common than they don't, but the differences are fascinating from an earthly/human perspective. I really wonder, too - does a dog care as much about a salamander as a human? How about a crow? Do crows think we're interesting at all? It's impossible to say. Ultimately you're right though, we're just creatures trying to survive in various ways. Humans have very sophisticated ways of doing it, but they aren't inherently more amazing outside of the human lens.
- nor-and-or-not 6y ago
  > Humans have very sophisticated ways of doing it Which yet has to be proven they are really working in the long way, because we are still on trial. Also let's see if we can retain our humanity whilst surviving as a species.
  - hypertele-Xii 6y ago
    When are we not on trial? Does there ever come a time when humanity can consider itself, for all intents and purposes, safe?
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  > I hear you, but... I understand what you are feeling when you contemplate the wonder of humankind's technological achievements, which, by some measures, necessarily narrow, far surpass the capabilities of any other species. It's worth reflecting on this feeling, which comes reflexively to anyone who is presented with the intellectual challenge that you answered with your complete response above. When Darwin first published his theory of evolution, he got a lot of pushback from people because of this exact feeling. 19th century British humans resented being "relegated" to the relations of apes. They scorned Darwin for saying it. Why?
  - steve_adams_86 6y ago
    I don’t mean to say I’m not satisfied with being a hairless ape - I simply am what I am. But as much as I marvel at other species and even envy their abilities, I appreciate our own unique abilities as well. And of course, reflexively marvelling at human achievement is worth reflecting on. I do that quite a bit. I personally think humans are largely pro-social, and this reflex is partially an extension of the human tendency to innately cheer for humanity. It seems literally in our nature to promote ourselves in this way. At the end of the day, I’m largely vegetarian (I eat some fish) because rationally I know that I can’t really differentiate my human experience from that of a cow or chicken, and I’d rather not risk that killing and eating a cow would be no different from a cow killing and eating me. Space exploration isn’t enough for me to justify killing an animal that’s ultimately not much different from me. Perhaps somehow we could learn that that’s ridiculous and all animals are basically robots and humans are the only conscience on the universe. Until then I’d rather assume some cow out there is wondering about humans and wondering why we aren’t as clever as they are.
    - amelius 6y ago
      The self is merely an illusion. On a different level you are that cow, and that chicken too.
      - Koshkin 6y ago
        But I kinda like that illusion.
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      How do you feel when non-humans wantonly kill humans? Just wondering ;-)
      - steve_adams_86 6y ago
        I’m honestly not sure. The world appears to contain life which feeds on life, so on some level it’s entirely necessary in order for life to continue as we know it. I know that I can make a choice to feed on life (or at least life like my own) less but I have no way of knowing that about anything else. My intuition is that most animals can’t or don’t distinguish much in what life they feed on and so if they eat humans, it’s simply according to nature and not problematic in the least.
- patcon 6y ago
  > I hear you, but it seems neat that our ticker tape yields a meat bag that likes to send rockets to other hunks of rock in a giant cold vacuum (for example). I'd suggest as individuals of our species, we're not much more interesting than ribosomes -- one could say that ribosomes execute all the stuff in the salamander video (hey, they print the DNA into proteins). Humans are maybe just biological machinery in the organism of culture, like ribosomes are the molecular machinery in the organism of biology. Culture does all those amazing things, and humans just skim along the unfathomably long and multi-dimensional ticker tape of language/culture :) Just my 2c, of course, and the way I stay humble about humanity
  - hoseja 6y ago
    Are you OK with the seemingly inexorable march toward human eusociality and reduction to meme-substrate?
    - patcon 6y ago
      I like the question, but I'm not sure I have an answer :)
  - abandonliberty 6y ago
    I get the desire to stay humble. This feels like splitting hairs though. You would say it's not humans, but human culture that is causing global extinction event? Well, okay. In any case, you may find the book 'Sapiens' interesting. It argues that the fundamental change that caused sapiens to dominate all other life is our ability to abstract and conceptualize.
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      > the fundamental change that caused sapiens to dominate all other life Are you sure that has happened? Do humans dominate insects, fungi, and bacteria? Do humans dominate the biomass of Earth? If you limited the scope of your remark to mammals, fish, reptile and birds, I would understand what you are saying. Humans have excelled at habitat destruction. Still, I would point out that the "domination" of which you speak is less than 300 years in duration, with no certainty to last beyond 500 years.
ASalazarMX 6y ago
Dogs do, that's what humans selectively bred them for.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  Hey wolf... come here, don’t bite me... guess what we’re going to turn you into!!
  - GreenWatermelon 6y ago
    I pity the poor Chihuahuas. A living example of how monstrous Man can be.
gorgoiler 6y ago
There’s a footprint on the moon that begs to differ.
uticus 6y ago
Perhaps I misunderstood the thrust of your point, in which case I hope you’ll correct me. It seems you’re saying basically all species are equal, not in all being created, but in all being alike. If I’m close to target, and if the basic salamander could talk ontology, I posit they would disagree with you… not by saying “salamanders are dull, humans are exciting”, but by saying “we are both created we know not from where, and go to we know not where – but you humans show evidence of caring about this, unlike us salamanders.” The very existence of a salamander – let alone seeing it form and grow – says very clearly a few points, especially that humans are amazed by these things (look at the comments!) wherease salamanders are not amazed but merely (although still gloriously) amazing. In which case an argument that humans aren’t special (and therefore have a greater burden of responsibility and joy) seems to fall wide of the mark.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  I'm not sure what you are saying from here on: > The very existence of a salamander... says very clearly a few points. What does the existence of a salamander "say"?
  - GreenWatermelon 6y ago
    That humans are indeed special because they care about this video, while this li'le salamander over there would be satisfied by spending his day on a tree branch waiting for a fly to pass nearby.

steve_adams_86 6y ago

I hear you, but it seems neat that our ticker tape yields a meat bag that likes to send rockets to other hunks of rock in a giant cold vacuum (for example). Salamanders on a cosmic scale are probably difficult to distinguish from humans – just more bundles of cellular automata that share more in common than they don't, but the differences are fascinating from an earthly/human perspective. I really wonder, too - does a dog care as much about a salamander as a human? How about a crow? Do crows think we're interesting at all? It's impossible to say. Ultimately you're right though, we're just creatures trying to survive in various ways. Humans have very sophisticated ways of doing it, but they aren't inherently more amazing outside of the human lens.

nor-and-or-not 6y ago
> Humans have very sophisticated ways of doing it Which yet has to be proven they are really working in the long way, because we are still on trial. Also let's see if we can retain our humanity whilst surviving as a species.
- hypertele-Xii 6y ago
  When are we not on trial? Does there ever come a time when humanity can consider itself, for all intents and purposes, safe?
wombatmobile 6y ago
> I hear you, but... I understand what you are feeling when you contemplate the wonder of humankind's technological achievements, which, by some measures, necessarily narrow, far surpass the capabilities of any other species. It's worth reflecting on this feeling, which comes reflexively to anyone who is presented with the intellectual challenge that you answered with your complete response above. When Darwin first published his theory of evolution, he got a lot of pushback from people because of this exact feeling. 19th century British humans resented being "relegated" to the relations of apes. They scorned Darwin for saying it. Why?
- steve_adams_86 6y ago
  I don’t mean to say I’m not satisfied with being a hairless ape - I simply am what I am. But as much as I marvel at other species and even envy their abilities, I appreciate our own unique abilities as well. And of course, reflexively marvelling at human achievement is worth reflecting on. I do that quite a bit. I personally think humans are largely pro-social, and this reflex is partially an extension of the human tendency to innately cheer for humanity. It seems literally in our nature to promote ourselves in this way. At the end of the day, I’m largely vegetarian (I eat some fish) because rationally I know that I can’t really differentiate my human experience from that of a cow or chicken, and I’d rather not risk that killing and eating a cow would be no different from a cow killing and eating me. Space exploration isn’t enough for me to justify killing an animal that’s ultimately not much different from me. Perhaps somehow we could learn that that’s ridiculous and all animals are basically robots and humans are the only conscience on the universe. Until then I’d rather assume some cow out there is wondering about humans and wondering why we aren’t as clever as they are.
  - amelius 6y ago
    The self is merely an illusion. On a different level you are that cow, and that chicken too.
    - Koshkin 6y ago
      But I kinda like that illusion.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    How do you feel when non-humans wantonly kill humans? Just wondering ;-)
    - steve_adams_86 6y ago
      I’m honestly not sure. The world appears to contain life which feeds on life, so on some level it’s entirely necessary in order for life to continue as we know it. I know that I can make a choice to feed on life (or at least life like my own) less but I have no way of knowing that about anything else. My intuition is that most animals can’t or don’t distinguish much in what life they feed on and so if they eat humans, it’s simply according to nature and not problematic in the least.
patcon 6y ago
> I hear you, but it seems neat that our ticker tape yields a meat bag that likes to send rockets to other hunks of rock in a giant cold vacuum (for example). I'd suggest as individuals of our species, we're not much more interesting than ribosomes -- one could say that ribosomes execute all the stuff in the salamander video (hey, they print the DNA into proteins). Humans are maybe just biological machinery in the organism of culture, like ribosomes are the molecular machinery in the organism of biology. Culture does all those amazing things, and humans just skim along the unfathomably long and multi-dimensional ticker tape of language/culture :) Just my 2c, of course, and the way I stay humble about humanity
- hoseja 6y ago
  Are you OK with the seemingly inexorable march toward human eusociality and reduction to meme-substrate?
  - patcon 6y ago
    I like the question, but I'm not sure I have an answer :)
- abandonliberty 6y ago
  I get the desire to stay humble. This feels like splitting hairs though. You would say it's not humans, but human culture that is causing global extinction event? Well, okay. In any case, you may find the book 'Sapiens' interesting. It argues that the fundamental change that caused sapiens to dominate all other life is our ability to abstract and conceptualize.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    > the fundamental change that caused sapiens to dominate all other life Are you sure that has happened? Do humans dominate insects, fungi, and bacteria? Do humans dominate the biomass of Earth? If you limited the scope of your remark to mammals, fish, reptile and birds, I would understand what you are saying. Humans have excelled at habitat destruction. Still, I would point out that the "domination" of which you speak is less than 300 years in duration, with no certainty to last beyond 500 years.

ASalazarMX 6y ago

Dogs do, that's what humans selectively bred them for.

SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
Hey wolf... come here, don’t bite me... guess what we’re going to turn you into!!
- GreenWatermelon 6y ago
  I pity the poor Chihuahuas. A living example of how monstrous Man can be.

gorgoiler 6y ago

There’s a footprint on the moon that begs to differ.

uticus 6y ago

Perhaps I misunderstood the thrust of your point, in which case I hope you’ll correct me. It seems you’re saying basically all species are equal, not in all being created, but in all being alike. If I’m close to target, and if the basic salamander could talk ontology, I posit they would disagree with you… not by saying “salamanders are dull, humans are exciting”, but by saying “we are both created we know not from where, and go to we know not where – but you humans show evidence of caring about this, unlike us salamanders.” The very existence of a salamander – let alone seeing it form and grow – says very clearly a few points, especially that humans are amazed by these things (look at the comments!) wherease salamanders are not amazed but merely (although still gloriously) amazing. In which case an argument that humans aren’t special (and therefore have a greater burden of responsibility and joy) seems to fall wide of the mark.

wombatmobile 6y ago
I'm not sure what you are saying from here on: > The very existence of a salamander... says very clearly a few points. What does the existence of a salamander "say"?
- GreenWatermelon 6y ago
  That humans are indeed special because they care about this video, while this li'le salamander over there would be satisfied by spending his day on a tree branch waiting for a fly to pass nearby.