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One hull crack located in ISS, another one suspected
- ChuckMcM 6y agoMaterials aging in space is a pretty deep subject. That it is the Russian Zvevda module that is leaking/cracking is likely related to the fact that it is also the oldest module in the ISS. The ISS is/was scheduled to be retired in 2024 (aka 3 years from now) but there are calls to keep it going. My fantasy would be to have SpaceX move it into the Lunar L1 Lagrange point which would keep it in use but it would have to deal with more cosmic rays, also station keeping would be an issue unless we could really get energized tether station keeping to work (lots of solar energy to provide power, but not a lot of mass to provide thrust, so tethers are energized conductors that push against the Earth's magnetic field) Parking it in L4 or L5 could keep it for future generations but it would be even more of a challenge to go visit.
- jeffcox 6y agoI realize their orbit is relatively clear of debris and micro meteors, but is this materials decomposing or degrading and not random damage and happenstance? The ISS has no doubt been important and I remember how excited I was when it was being assembled. Is it really so historically significant it's worth the amount of effort you're describing?
- thescriptkiddie 6y agoCracks are a common sign of metal fatigue, which can be caused by repeated stress cycles. Imagine bending a piece of plastic back and forth until it snaps.
- pengaru 6y agoEspecially for "cold butter" metals like aluminum and copper.
- ben_w 6y agoI’ve never heard that phrase used in this content before. How does “cold butter” apply to these metals?
- fao_ 6y agoI think it refers to the type of break the joint makes? However, while searching I found this search excerpt: Which metals diffuse into other metals and how? | Naked ... www.thenakedscientists.com › forum Sodium and potassium metal (both *soft solids, like cold butter*) react So perhaps it is used to designate 'soft solids' versus 'hard solids'
- pengaru 6y agoI don't recall which of the many print books I read in my gearhead/TIG-welding days had used the term, but the lack of a distinct fatigue/endurance limit [0] for these metals was put into practical terms with something along the lines of "like slightly bending a cold stick of butter". It's why aluminum airplanes are supposed to get inspected for cracks regularly, and why aluminum bicycle frames must be so uncomfortably rigid. If there's cyclic stress occurring, it's a question of when, not if they will crack. If I had to guess it's from Carroll Smith's 80s-era Engineer to Win, it sounds like something he'd write. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S-N_curves.PNG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S-N_curves.PNG
- lmilcin 6y agoHull is definitely not decomposing or degrading. If left in peace at sufficiently high altitude it would look the same in a million years. My bet is the issue is most likely stresses due to vibrations under pressure and pressure changes. It is complex but also well known problem. As the astro/kosmonauts move about the station, resupply dock, pressure changes, etc. some parts are being subject to constantly changing stresses while already being stressed due to pressure. It might also be possible that there are some additional thermal stresses but I think it is less likely these are source of the problem.
- Voloskaya 6y ago> My bet is the issue is most likely stresses due to vibrations under pressure and pressure changes. So you are saying it's degrading?
- maxerickson 6y agoThese discussions about materials are often difficult, because there are meaningfully different processes that are lumped together in everyday language. Mechanical stresses leading to failure at a particular point are certainly a form of degradation, but I believe they mean degradation in the sense where the entire body of the material is undergoing some change (like a plastic bottle fogging or such). I think seeking clear descriptions is fine, treating it as a "gotcha" game is tedious and unnecessary.
- lmilcin 6y agoI took liberty to look through the literature and it seems change of physical and chemical properties of material due to all types conditions (including physical stresses) is covered by the term. I am not into mechanical science that much, I have always treated degradation as a kind of surface or volume phenomena where the material looses its properties due to temperature, radiation, age, chemical reaction, etc. For mechanical effects there are already very good terms like metal fatigue and stress induced cracking.
- waheoo 6y ago
- elihu 6y ago> Is it really so historically significant it's worth the amount of effort you're describing? Space launches are getting a lot cheaper, so moving the ISS to another orbit might not be such a big deal as it used to be. We don't really need to keep the ISS around forever, but on the other hand, losing it would in some ways be similar to the burning of Notre Dame in 2019 (I can't believe that was less than two years ago). It's mankind's first permanent foothold in space. In that sense, it's irreplaceable. Let's say moving the ISS at the end of its usable lifespan costs a half billion dollars. That's like asking every U.S. taxpayer to pay about two dollars. Is it worth it? To me I think it's worth a lot more than two dollars, even if it unlikely that i'll ever actually be able to visit the ISS in my lifetime.
- jarofgreen 6y ago> It's mankind's first permanent foothold in space. Mir?
- elihu 6y agoGood point, I forgot about Mir. According to wikipedia it lasted from 1986 to 2001. I had briefly considered Skylab, but figured it didn't really count as "permanent". Wikipedia says it was up for 24 weeks.
- unixhero 6y agoI loooove Lagrange points
- akiselev 6y ago> That it is the Russian Zvevda module that is leaking/cracking is likely related to the fact that it is also the oldest module in the ISS. Definitely sounds like it. They can't identify the leak on the inside so it doesn't sound like a micrometeoroid impact and they suspect a second leak that is so small they need a microscope to verify: > "So far, we have found one place and suspect another, where as some kind of leak exists. We must bring a powerful microscope on a cargo spacecraft and use to examine this place. We are not totally certain so far," Solovyov said. IANAMS but that screams microfractures. The Zvezda is made largely of an aluminum magnesium alloy [1] that has a fatigue limit so even small repetitive stress can cause it to eventually fail. I'm curious whether this is wear and tear from just being in space and getting irradiated or if its repetitive mechanical stresses like a small tidal force as it orbits the earth. [1] https://weebau.com/iss/zvezda.htm https://weebau.com/iss/zvezda.htm
- bartread 6y agoIs it possible it could also be from constant heating and cooling cycles as it orbits?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- HPsquared 6y agoThose are the cause of the stress cycles. Components don't expand/contact uniformly, resulting in deformation and therefore stress. This process goes through cycles, causing stress cycles which eventually cause the growth of cracks (fatigue).
- HenryKissinger 6y agoHave we invented a material that is resistant to these thermal cycles indefinitely, or at least within a range of temperatures of several thousand degrees? I'm never going to have my own Star Destroyer if we continue to use subpar materials.
- gizmo686 6y agoIs there any reason to park in at a Lagrange point instead of just a high orbit? There aren't that many Lagrange points, so we should probably avoid cluttering them with objects that don't need to be there.
- m4rtink 6y agoAt least for the Moon, the lunar orbit is generally unstable: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_orbit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_orbit
- gizmo686 6y agoYou don't need a stable orbit, just one that will keep it in our neighborhood and away from the atmosphere and congested orbits. Put it in a high orbit, and point a telescope at it every now and then to update our record of it's orbit. By the time we are ready to visit it, even if its orbit changed, its new orbit would not be any more inconvenient then where we left it.
- namibj 6y agoThe moon's lumpy gravity field actually causes the eccentricity of most orbits to raise quite fast, eventually bringing the periapsis below the surface (or the apoapsis on an escape trajectory, but I recall the former being more of an issue): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadClM4Y45A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadClM4Y45A
- rossmohax 6y agofrom what I've read Lagrange point isn't exactly a point, but a region where it's cheap (in terms of fuel) to stay. They are quite large.
- sandworm101 6y agoYou can orbit the lagrange point, vertically as seen from earth. In such orbits it functions as if it were a point source of gravity.
- lsllc 6y agoI think we need a "Space New Deal", I'm honestly saddened by the lack of progress in space in my lifetime. I mean we've done some great work, but we haven't made any giant leaps since getting to the moon 51.5 years ago. Thankfully, we do have SpaceX et. al. who really are making some big strides -- but how do we multiply & speed up that effort? ... sorry, I'm being selfish, but I really want to go to Mars.
- ska 6y ago> but how do we multiply & speed up that effort? I think it's pretty much politically impossible. The first big space push was mostly a political pissing match (i.e. not really driven by doing it for its own sake). It's pretty easy to come up with other major challenges that most people will consider more important that also aren't getting funding ... so private industry looks more likely to get some traction. States might get interested if/when those efforts start to get more interesting or threatening. Mars in your lifetime is implausible, but not impossible I suppose.
- NortySpock 6y agoChina's public plans include a semi-permanent base on the Moon. That oughta ruffle some feathers in Congress. Chinese paper on plant-based life support systems for extended crew stays. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.12.426282v1 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.12.426282v1
- Something1234 6y agoDid the Chinese build their own biosphere 2 (Arizona)?
- andi999 6y agoSince you mentioned biosphere 2, I was really surprised to learn the Steve Bannon was director for 2 years of the project.
- stretchcat 6y agoAre tidal forces a significant source of strain on the ISS, due to the size of the station putting different parts of it in slightly different orbits? And if so, would these forces be less at a lagrange point?
- MisterTea 6y ago> Parking it in L4 or L5 could keep it for future generations but it would be even more of a challenge to go visit. "If your planet has one or more broken down space stations on its lawn, you might be a redneck colony." (Sorry.)
- Waterluvian 6y agoThat's hilarious. Is that from anywhere beyond being a take on that one comedian's shtick?
- nitrogen 6y agoMissed opportunity to replace "lawn" with "Lagrange"
- ves 6y agoAlternatively, Lagrawnge
- derekp7 6y agoFor future spacecraft, would it be possible to have a double hull with a self-healing jell in the middle? (In concept, I'm thinking similar to tire sealer, something with clotting agents in it).
- theodric 6y agoThat'd stop the leaks but not mitigate the risk of catastrophic hull failure caused by untreated cracks originating from repeated thermal cycling stresses
- babs56 6y agoWhere do you get this information from? I would love to read more about it...
- deepsun 6y agoMake it robotic only. Stop/dump all life support, but leave manipulators/robots like Canadarm, and accept robotic add-ons and commercial sub-satellites.
- alex_duf 6y agoA good chunk (arguably the most important one) of the research is actually done on the live subjects that go up there. So you'd lose a lot of research capability.
- joshxyz 6y agoExciting times. The first wonder of the space: The ISS.
- analog31 6y agoI hope JB Weld and Shoe Goo work in space, or our hopes of interstellar travel are dashed.
- rstupek 6y agoDuct tape should fix them right up
- kevin_thibedeau 6y agoSave a seat for the Flex Seal guy.
- fctorial 6y ago... I sawed the ISS in half.
- TeMPOraL 6y agoYou're joking but this reminds me of a hard sci-fi novel I read recently, Saturn Run[0]. One of the minor worldbuilding trivia there is that adhesives seem to be way overused to fix and modify things in space. (The book also features the coolest design for a radiator I've ever seen anywhere.) -- [0] - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24611668-saturn-run https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24611668-saturn-run
- sudosysgen 6y agoOut of the curiosity, what is the radiator design?
- TeMPOraL 6y agorot13 because it's a bit of a spoiler (IMO half the fun of reading hard sci-fi is seeing the science and engineering being presented): Gur fuvc gur cebgntbavfgf geniry ba vf cebcryyrq ol INFVZE guehfgref, cbjrerq ol n ahpyrne ernpgbe ehaavat zbygra zrgny nf pbbynag. Gb enqvngr njnl tvtnjnggf bs gurezny cbjre, gurl rzcybl n enqvngbe gung vf rffragvnyyl n ynetr neenl bs 3Q cevagref. Gurer ner ornzf fbzr uhaqerqf bs zrgref ybat, gung pbagvahbhfyl rkgehqr gur yvdhvq zrgny pbbynag vagb fcnpr nf ybat naq guva evoobaf. Gur zrgny evoobaf pbby qbja, enqvngvat njnl raretl, naq ner thvqrq ryrpgebzntargvpnyyl gbjneqf n ornz shyy bs ebyyref, gung pncgher gur sebmra evoobaf, juvpu gura trg zrygrq naq chfurq guebhtu gur ernpgbe ntnva. Gur flfgrz erdhverf evqvphybhf nzbhagf bs npgvir pbageby, naq nf lbh pna vzntvar, znlurz pna unccra vs vg znyshapgvbaf.
- gumby 6y agoLook like one of the panels is damaged too -- what's the story on that?
- xxpor 6y agoAre Tass articles always translated this poorly? I'm just surprised that a state owned news agency would put something like this out.
- tempestn 6y agoAre you sure it was a translation? I assumed it was quoting Solovyov speaking English.
- meepmorp 6y agoThe article is reporting an interview that happened on Russian state TV, so it's almost certainly a translation.
- xxpor 6y agoIt's not even the interview that's the issue, the actual text the author wrote is a mess too. >He underscored that air loss due to the crack are insignificant. >In November, Russian cosmonauts photographed the suspected leak location on the outside of the ISS, but found no hull damage at where the crack is supposed to be. Granted, it's understandable, but it sounds like someone who learned English in school but never really uses it rather than someone paid to translate.
- shard 6y agoI tried to make the two sentences grammatically correct: >He underscored that the air loss due to the crack a̶r̶e̶ is insignificant. >In November, Russian cosmonauts photographed the suspected leak location on the outside of the ISS, but found no hull damage a̶t̶ where the crack is supposed to be. These seem minor to me, compared with some horrific ad copy that I've seen, which mangled SVO order or used completely inappropriate terms. Articles and plurals are hard for non-native speakers whose mother tongue do not have them (not sure if Russian does or not), and prepositions require memorizing a large number of idioms.
- userbinator 6y ago
- artiscode 6y agoI wonder if radiation will become an issue at some point. It is being irradiated all the time, doesn’t it also start to leak inside? Can that be an issue in the future for inhabitable objects in space?
- forgotmypw77 6y agoi think we,re kidding ourselves about human space exploration. machines are taking over and soon they,ll be able to do it autonomously or near so. we,ll be stuck on earth for a good while... with this biome we,re so intent on wiping out right now
- socram2k 6y agoRevolving the earth each 90min, with the changes in the amount of energy received by the sun in each cycle has to be very stressful for a metal frame.
- NickNameNick 6y agoThat depends on what you mean by radiation, and 'leak inside' On the ground, most radiation 'leaks' are mostly chemical contamination problems. In space the volume of free material, and the pressure gradient should prevent anything outside coming in. Except perhaps on the exposed surfaces of the airlocks/docking adapters. Come types of particle radiation might cause transmutation/activiation of the hull material - that could be a concern. I doubt it's major issue.
- throwanem 6y agoSuits can bring material in, and do. I forget if it was the "smell of space" or the "smell of the moon" they were talking about, but I remember reading that one astronaut described the odor as like that of burnt gunpowder, and that suitborne particulates proved to be the source.
- mikro2nd 6y agoI shudder to think what the inside of those space suits must smell like...
- spike021 6y agoNot a big space person, but this makes me wonder: why have we not planned for a new ISS? We must have better tech nowadays from all the working countries/groups currently involved, plus SpaceX and other space companies' backing that would not have existed as it does now back when this ISS was first designed/created.
- spiritplumber 6y agoThe ISS mostly happened because it was a way to keep ex-Soviet aerospace scientists and engineers doing aerospace things rather than, say, go build ICBMs for third world countries. Same as Arecibo happened because the USAF wanted a big radar and the Hubble happened because (I forgot which spy agency it was) had a spare satellite. Sad when you think about it...
- HPsquared 6y agoSatellites in general happened as a result of an arms race.
- rtkwe 6y agoThe space race at all was 90% a pissing match between the USSR and the USA.
- proggy 6y agoHubble’s optics were designed around contemporary manufacturing infrastructure for spy satellites, presumably the KH-11 design developed by the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_Kennen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_Kennen
- adamjb 6y agoDon't forget the other half of it: the ISS was basically the only justification for the Shuttle's continued existence
- fuoqi 6y ago>The ISS mostly happened because it was a way to keep ex-Soviet aerospace scientists and engineers doing aerospace things rather than, say, go build ICBMs for third world countries. Nope. It's funny you seriously consider it being true. Building space stations and ICBMs are two VERY different fields for one thing. And number of launches to ISS is significantly smaller than number of satellite launches. One of the main reasons for the US was a chance to buy space station building technology and transfer relevant expertise for a relatively cheap price tag. Russian/USSR scientists and engineers were far ahead in this field thanks to the Mir station. Creating a demand for the Space Shuttle was a good bonus as well.
- ortusdux 6y agoWhat are there reserves like? How long could they sustain a 0.5 - 1.0 mmHg / min leak?
- csours 6y agoI wonder what that means in grams/min
- throwanem 6y agoYou'd have to take the derivative with respect to time, I'd think, because the ejection rate might decrease with pressure. Instantaneously, with a 1mmHg/min leak I think you'd lose roughly 1.5kg or a little over a cubic meter's worth in the first minute, given the 915.6 m^3 pressurized volume and a mass of ~1.3kg/m^3 for air at sea level (760mmHg, which is close enough). How long it takes to get down to an unsurvivable ~250mmHg (assuming an Earth-air-like breathing gas aboard ISS, which seems reasonable) takes more trouble to figure out than I care to go to on a Friday night, but the lowest possible bound (assuming a constant ejection rate) would be somewhere around 500 minutes, or between eight and a bit to nine-ish hours. Honestly I'm more curious what area a breach would have to have to produce that kind of leak rate. edit: Actually, given the effectively infinite volume at effective vacuum outside the hull, you wouldn't see the same "counterpressure" effect you would in atmosphere, that causes pressure equalization to slow down as it approaches equality - there's no equalization that can happen here. That said, you'd still lose less mass per unit time over time, as the internal pressure and thus the mass per unit volume drops.
- keyle 6y agoI burst into laughter reading the Russian's quotes. I love how casual the astronaut is about it! I'm no astronaut but I wouldn't be sleeping with crack in my hull, leaking air.
- calcifer 6y agoThey leak 0.3 mmHg per day and are currently at 750 mmHg. An emergency is 0.5-1 mmHg per minute. They really don't have anything urgent to worry about.
- curiousllama 6y agoExcept loud cracking sounds followed by a gentle breeze
- sellyme 6y agoIf they're experiencing a breeze they might have bigger problems to worry about than a cracked hull.
- faeyanpiraat 6y agoOk, so it’s a 4.5cm long crack. If an aluminum bycicle frame cracks like that, it is useful to drill holes at the end of the cracks, to stop the cracks from progressing.
- lolc 6y agoAfter fixing that leak they can go back to sleeping among uncharted fragments that can collide with no warning but catastrophic impact.
- segfaultbuserr 6y ago> He underscored that air loss due to the crack are insignificant. "This leak is like as if you’d drill the hull with a 0.2 mm diameter drill. I’m not sure such drills even exist in household. I had to check my collection of PCB drill bits when I was reading it, and yes, I confirm that I'm a proud owner of a 0.2 mm drill at home, it was the smallest one in the box ;-)
- arthurcolle 6y agoCan they duct tape it from outside?
- codesnik 6y agofrom inside should be better for actually keeping air from leaking. I wonder why it isn't working 100% well
- arthurcolle 6y agoDoesn't that depend on how the crack is forming, from outside or from inside? Gosh, can you imagine being in space and knowing there's a crack? I'd be so stressed. But the Russian dude said that the integrity is within acceptable limits or something, so I guess they can just do some calculations and feel confident. Still, it must be intimidating to know that you are performing your own due diligence for the very fabric of your own life-support systems.
- walrus01 6y agoAs a person that's previously owned a Zodiac-type boat, I really wonder what an ISS patch kit looks like. What sort of adhesives, covering materials, chemicals and application stuff do they have on hand for quick "we need to stop air escaping through this hole NOW" type situations? Obviously the problem is sort of reversed, if you have a leaky zodiac you're patching it from the outside and trying to stop air escaping into the atmosphere. If you have a leaky ISS module you're inside it, and applying some sort of quick-setting malleable chemical goop into a hole that's sucking your air outwards...
- aero-glide2 6y agoIt is supposed to be retired in 2024. But politicians will push it to 2030 so that ISS contractors keep getting paid.
- jpgvm 6y agoMaybe with Starship flying soon we can replace the station for a fraction of what originally cost. I hope they consider pushing it out into a stable orbit instead of deorbitting it though... it seems like such a sad thing to destroy a piece of space history forever that we could feasibly retain now mass to orbit is orders of magnitude cheaper.
- blackrock 6y agoI think it’s time to junk the ISS. It’s outlived its usefulness. It’s now in old age, and has outlived its design parameters. I think it’s time to build a rotating space station. We’ve got all the knowledge from a microgravity space station, as we’re going to get. The conclusion is that it sucks. Humans are not meant to live in space without gravity. The muscle and bone deterioration is too great. And the eye damage is too great. We need gravity. The question is whether we can get it from centripetal acceleration instead, to provide a long term habitation in space for humans.
- dtgriscom 6y agoI'd hate to see all that material/equipment burn up in the atmosphere. How much would it be worth just as an orbiting junkpile for scavenging by new projects?
- collyw 6y agoDo they have a roll of duct tape up there with them?
- andrewpk 6y agohttps://media2.giphy.com/media/fADf4RUs3hUFvHz18o/giphy.gif?cid=4d1e4f29epuit7b4c2wi70dascfvdv1sid170sgt3o0usckc&rid=giphy.gif https://media2.giphy.com/media/fADf4RUs3hUFvHz18o/giphy.gif?...