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Establishment of a closed artificial ecosystem to ensure human survival on moon
- phreeza 6y agoI wonder how this compared to the Biosphere 2 experiments conducted in the 90s. It seems this is a much more artificial environment, and thus probably closer to an actual moon mission.
- woleium 6y agoiirc, biosphere failed because the concrete absorbed carbon dioxide and caused crop failure. interestingly, this allowed Dr Roy Walford et al to study calorie restricted optimal nutrition (CRON) diets and discover their effects, slowing the aging process.
- LatteLazy 6y agoEdit: sorry, rereading this it sounds a bit abrasive. That wasn't my intent. I'd never actually read up on it till I read your comment and wondered how concrete absorbed CO2. It was a fun 30min of Wikipedia! I thank you for the distraction! The concrete absorbed oxygen not CO2. I don't think there was a crop failure so much as too many people, not enough plants? Apparently they also miscalculated the amount of sunlight coming through the windows and so the amount of photosynthesis occurring, so maybe that is form of crop failure: does X grams of crop have fewer calories in of its been light deprived? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
- joncp 6y agoInteresting read. I was surprised to find Steve Bannon's name in there.
- jelliclesfarm 6y agoThey ended up growing and eating so much sweet potatoes that they turned orange after a while. They had to pump oxygen into the biosphere 2 This is a fantastic read https://dartmouthalumnimagazine.com/articles/biosphere-2-what-really-happened https://dartmouthalumnimagazine.com/articles/biosphere-2-wha... [..] Microbes in our organically enriched soils had produced carbon dioxide at a greater rate than our young plants could produce oxygen via photosynthesis. We discovered that most of the missing oxygen was converted to CO2 and had been absorbed by the unsealed concrete in our habitat.[..]
- vzvz 6y agoEvidence that CRON diet slows down the aging process is pretty weak.
- nradov 6y agoWe don't really know whether the aging process has slowed. Some biomarkers changed but that doesn't necessarily indicate a longer life.
- dghughes 6y agoOn the BBC there was an episode where CRON was discussed. It showed a man who peeled an apple threw away the apple and ate the peelings. It seems bizarre but I think this will be a trend in a few years. It ticks boxes of less food waste, less bulk, high nutrition, ultra low calories. Whether it works or not who knows since many diets tend to be for status not health; veganism with its absence of B12, Atkins with its high fat, Paleo based on inaccurate pre-history.
- avmich 6y agoA lot of people use diets for health, not for status. E.g. vegans often supplement B12 externally.
- dghughes 6y agoBut that's the issue vegans can't live without artificially supplementing with B12. To me that shows the vegan diet is not valid or survivable. If you were on a desert island or stuck in a remote location and were vegan you'd be dead after a few years from B12 deficiency.
- philbo 6y agohttps://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01lxyzc/horizon-20122013-3-eat-fast-and-live-longer https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01lxyzc/horizon-20122...
- baxtr 6y agoHow do you reconcile “He threw the apple away” and “Less food waste”?
- dghughes 6y agoNot just that apple but overall the fewer calories of CRON means less food consumed.
- lldbg 6y agoFor a billion people, calories is the most important nutrition
- beaner 6y agoConcrete absorbs carbon dioxide even after it's set? Shouldn't it like... grow, then? From accumulated carbon? Don't mean to waive you off or anything, just never heard this before and it doesn't seem to make sense at first listen.
- elihu 6y agoI don't much about biosphere 2 specifically, but I have read that concrete absorbs CO2 over long timescales. Hundred-year-old concrete is chemically different than it was when it was a month old. I don't know if it gets denser, or if the CO2 replaces something else.
- snypher 6y agoConcrete samples from inside and outside the structure showed strikingly different levels of calcium carbonate, which was rapidly being formed inside the domes as huge amounts of carbon dioxide reacted with calcium hydroxide in the concrete. ... Severinghaus said of the calcium carbonate. "It's 10 times more than outside." From https://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/05/science/too-rich-a-soil-scientists-find-the-flaw-that-undid-the-biosphere.html https://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/05/science/too-rich-a-soil-s...
- beaner 6y agoBut how much was it relative to the total volume of concrete?
- krisoft 6y ago“ Concrete continues to set and cure for months and years, increasing its strength over time. It's a long-lived giant chemical reaction that continues on long after it has set.” Source: https://interestingengineering.com/why-concrete-doesnt-actually-dry-out https://interestingengineering.com/why-concrete-doesnt-actua...
- beaner 6y agoBut it continues to take up the same volume of space, so isn't there a limit to how much carbon dioxide it can remove from the atmosphere and store?
- wmf 6y agoAm I the only one thinking that Elon should already be testing some beta Mars habitats on Earth by now? Why aren't we seeing more Biosphere-style experiments?
- Meerax 6y agoMy understanding was that Elon was interested in providing the bus service (so to speak) of getting people and cargo there. Less interested in the colony building aspect? But, I believe The Boring Company tunneling machine will fit inside a launch vehicle and the Tesla truck will function on extraterrestrial world's with a pressurized cabin so I could be completely mistaken.
- handol 6y ago> the Tesla truck will function on extraterrestrial world's with a pressurized cabin so I could be completely mistaken I suppose that's true, in the same way it's true of all electric cars. But a pressurized cabin and an airlock is a pretty massive change.
- amluto 6y agoThe cooling system would need to work in a very minimal atmosphere.
- colordrops 6y agoHe's focused on the critical path to colonizing mars. If an sustainable ecosystem becomes the critical path, he'll focus on it. There's so much else that is more important now though, and funding is limited.
- Ericson2314 6y agoIs funding limited? While Robinhood is around?
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
- krisoft 6y agoI often think about the Biosphere 2 experiment. The question of how to create a materialy closed but energetically open system where humans can thrive is such an interesting one. And it is already a really hard problem. But the biospherians went one further. They didnt just wanted to build a working biosphere, they also wanted to make it mimic the earth. Like I understand if for some chemical or even psychological reason you need a giant pool to make your humans comfortable, but why spend resources and attention to create a salt mars of varying salt gradient? It just adds more moving parts to an already complicated puzzle. It is as if you don’t only want to build the worlds first aeroplane but you want it shaped like a jellyfish with tinny bells. They had a hard problem and made it even harder for themselves.
- tesalrk 6y agodespite extraodinary good data regarding human experience of living in isolated/enclosed conolies, we persist on believing the fundmantal obstacle to livign on the moon is technological.
- wincy 6y agoNeuralink will make sure we don’t feel lonely on the colony.
- wizzwizz4 6y agoNeuralink (or, at least, the designs I've seen) would be worse than VR, and it's a little amusing to consider the idea that it might somehow directly prevent lonelinesss.
- handol 6y agoYou just load up the map for the kind of lobotomy you want to simulate and say good bye to loneliness.
- faeyanpiraat 6y agoTurning humans into emotionless robot workers via brain implants. If it is always-on, it’s like slavery. If you can turn it on/off, it’s like schizophrenia. This whole thing brings up so many practical phylosophical and ethical questions.
- wizzwizz4 6y ago• Neuralink – or, at least, the prototypes I've seen – can't do that. • I wouldn't let anything that could anywhere near my brain, and I doubt I'm the only one.
- ben_w 6y agoIMO it won’t count as a proper colony until it is big enough to not feel isolated.
- 6y ago
- etaioinshrdlu 6y agoTo me it seems like the Moon has a pretty unhelpful elemental composition. Especially, a distinct lack of carbon and nitrogen.
- NortySpock 6y agoVenus atmosphere is (roughly) habitable in terms of temperature and pressure at 55km up; seems like the elemental shortage there would be hydrogen and phosphorous; but that might be a better trade off than trying to farm the moon...
- jacquesm 6y agoThe case for Venus colonization: https://www.youtube.com/embed/0az7DEwG68A https://www.youtube.com/embed/0az7DEwG68A
- ArtWomb 6y agoVenus space stations gaining traction as a "second front" in exploration and colonization is something I am really pleased to see. It opens the door of planetary formation research. Long term lower atmospheric and surface habitation is the ultimate prize and perhaps the toughest engineering challenge at this moment ;) Experimental Study of Structural Materials for Prolonged Venus Surface Exploration Missions https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.A34617 https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.A34617
- kfarr 6y agoImagining a venus cloud city, Lando calrisian style
- idiocrat 6y agoMoon's biggest problem is the abrasiveness of moon dust. Without oxygen and water, the dust is very spiky. It sticks to everything, instantly matting spacesuits masks, wears our door hinges. On Earth the sand can be a nasty element, but the moon's dust is really an aggressive beast.
- 6y ago
- drak0n1c 6y agoHopefully the US moon base plan is maintained by the new administration and projects like these can find real applications in the next 10 years.
- arthur2e5 6y agoThe number of crew (8) raises my eyebrow a bit, since it seems to replicate what biosphere 2 did. I remember reading - or watching - some source that stated an even number of people is suboptimal for group dynamics, since it allows for a split into equal-numbered factions.
- phreeza 6y agoThere were 4 people in the experiment at any given time, but the point about even numbers holds.