6 ms·

Latency will always be an issue here. 200ms is enough to throw off the timing of an “all-at-once” note or syncing up sections. I’ve been a hobbyist musician si

Latency will always be an issue here. 200ms is enough to throw off the timing of an “all-at-once” note or syncing up sections. I’ve been a hobbyist musician since leaving school 20 years ago. I play piano, guitar, bass, mandolin, cello, drums, etc. All of the typical video platforms fall short of having a low enough latency to achieve “remote orchestra”. There was one product/service that I tried that got closer than anyone, JamKazam (https://jamkazam.com/ https://jamkazam.com/) and there were a few audio only options back mid-2000s that had close to 20-50ms which was better.

kayodelycaon 6y ago
Using Wi-Fi in my office adds up to 150ms of latency. (20m cat5 Ethernet cable has < 1ms)
- Jonnax 6y ago
  Is that with bad signal? Sounds like something is wrong with your setup. Got a Unifi AC LR and it only adds about 4 to t 6ms over Ethernet.
  - ikiris 6y ago
    Not bad signal, but the basis of how wifi shares the spectrum is time distribution.
  - ipython 6y ago
    High jitter also occurs when the signal is marginal and the client scans the WiFi frequencies for other base stations to associate to (on the assumption that maybe you moved and there is another base station with a stronger signal). Since it has to “tune” into the other channels to listen for beacons, there will be a noticeable jitter while it is not tuned to the “current” channel. This is my understanding as I’m still learning. Fascinating this stuff works at all.
jamroom 6y ago
I use Jam Kazam weekly and with a non Wi-Fi connection I get really good results
- gabereiser 6y ago
  I mentioned JamKazam in this thread above about latency. It’s the top of my list for this purpose but still has some issues when the connection quality isn’t good (ISP issues)
plorkyeran 6y ago
Mumble is in fact one of those audio-only options which can do 20-50ms latency, which is why the parent suggested it.
nullc 6y ago
> Latency will always be an issue here. No, it will not. :) You can get to 5ms above the network delay, even using compressed audio (opus), though some sound devices may be picky. Network delay can be just a few milliseconds even across a city, assuming that no latency murdering devices (wifi or nics in interrupt mitigation mode) are on the path. This means that you can have lower audio delay from a compressed audio conference crossing your state than is achieved from speed-of-sound delays from a performer sitting on the other side of a moderate sized room! The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed. (yet)
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  > Network delay can be just a few milliseconds even across a city If you limit your collaboration radius in that way, then sure (though it still depends on the router technology the packets encounter along the way). But if you want to go beyond that, the numbers get bigger. For transcontinental stuff, much much longer. But thanks for correcting the basic thrust.
  - nullc 6y ago
    One way delay between San Francisco and New York city is 37ms across the public internet today. This is the same one way delay as sound in air across 12 meters, which would be on the large size for an orchestra pit. It does get larger as you go further, but live performance with people on the other side of a large continent is completely realistic and has been done. :) Sure, expecting to go between NYC and someone in china behind the GFW is probably asking too much for a seamless experience. But many people mostly want to work with people in the same country as them ... and for that, with sufficient technology, latency need not be an issue.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      > live performance with people on the other side of a large continent is completely realistic and has been done. :) In case you're not aware, I'm the original author of JACK, around which JackTrip is built, which is the most likely and reliable tool for such a collaboration. I certainly know people who've done this, and I regret that I didn't realize back in February how useful it would have been to make something like JackTrip into a much easier-to-use tool for computer-naive folks. 37ms cross-country in the USA is optimistic, but certainly possible. US->Europe is not so great.

kayodelycaon 6y ago

Using Wi-Fi in my office adds up to 150ms of latency. (20m cat5 Ethernet cable has < 1ms)

Jonnax 6y ago
Is that with bad signal? Sounds like something is wrong with your setup. Got a Unifi AC LR and it only adds about 4 to t 6ms over Ethernet.
- ikiris 6y ago
  Not bad signal, but the basis of how wifi shares the spectrum is time distribution.
- ipython 6y ago
  High jitter also occurs when the signal is marginal and the client scans the WiFi frequencies for other base stations to associate to (on the assumption that maybe you moved and there is another base station with a stronger signal). Since it has to “tune” into the other channels to listen for beacons, there will be a noticeable jitter while it is not tuned to the “current” channel. This is my understanding as I’m still learning. Fascinating this stuff works at all.

jamroom 6y ago

I use Jam Kazam weekly and with a non Wi-Fi connection I get really good results

gabereiser 6y ago
I mentioned JamKazam in this thread above about latency. It’s the top of my list for this purpose but still has some issues when the connection quality isn’t good (ISP issues)

plorkyeran 6y ago

Mumble is in fact one of those audio-only options which can do 20-50ms latency, which is why the parent suggested it.

nullc 6y ago

> Latency will always be an issue here. No, it will not. :) You can get to 5ms above the network delay, even using compressed audio (opus), though some sound devices may be picky. Network delay can be just a few milliseconds even across a city, assuming that no latency murdering devices (wifi or nics in interrupt mitigation mode) are on the path. This means that you can have lower audio delay from a compressed audio conference crossing your state than is achieved from speed-of-sound delays from a performer sitting on the other side of a moderate sized room! The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed. (yet)

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
> Network delay can be just a few milliseconds even across a city If you limit your collaboration radius in that way, then sure (though it still depends on the router technology the packets encounter along the way). But if you want to go beyond that, the numbers get bigger. For transcontinental stuff, much much longer. But thanks for correcting the basic thrust.
- nullc 6y ago
  One way delay between San Francisco and New York city is 37ms across the public internet today. This is the same one way delay as sound in air across 12 meters, which would be on the large size for an orchestra pit. It does get larger as you go further, but live performance with people on the other side of a large continent is completely realistic and has been done. :) Sure, expecting to go between NYC and someone in china behind the GFW is probably asking too much for a seamless experience. But many people mostly want to work with people in the same country as them ... and for that, with sufficient technology, latency need not be an issue.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    > live performance with people on the other side of a large continent is completely realistic and has been done. :) In case you're not aware, I'm the original author of JACK, around which JackTrip is built, which is the most likely and reliable tool for such a collaboration. I certainly know people who've done this, and I regret that I didn't realize back in February how useful it would have been to make something like JackTrip into a much easier-to-use tool for computer-naive folks. 37ms cross-country in the USA is optimistic, but certainly possible. US->Europe is not so great.