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Feds asks Tesla to recall vehicles over failing touchscreen displays

198 points by mardiyah 6y ago

xeromal 6y ago
This is great news for people who own an aging S or X. I have a 2017 Tesla and the screen started spazzing out on me a while back but I drive pretty often. I willfully purchased an upgrade that solved the problem as the new screen (MCU) doesn't have the same architecture that caused the failure. I'd be nice to be compensated for my willful upgrade but at least other people can stick it to Tesla. I LOVE the car and will stick to it that it's the best car I've ever owned but it has its flaws and hopefully this recall teaches Tesla a lesson.
- echelon 6y ago
  > own an aging S or X. I have a 2017 Tesla How is a three year old car aging? I have a twenty year old Honda and a six year old Toyota and both feel amazing. The Honda doesn't feel new, but it doesn't have any problems. All I have to do is change the oil. Are we switching to a disposable car model now?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > How is a three year old car aging? It shouldn't be; depending on source, average length of new car ownership in the US seems to be somewhere in the 7-9 year range, and average length of car ownership (including cars bought used) seems to be ~4 years, and average car lifespan seems to be around 15 years. A car 3-4 years from new shouldn't be “aging”.
    - Swenrekcah 6y ago
      That’s a terribly short lifespan IMO. I would have thought the shortest lifespan models to last at least 15 years. I hope they’re getting sold to Mexico or something, not scrapped.
      - curryst 6y ago
        That's likely what's happening. Owner buys it new, uses it for 7-9 years. Goes to the used market, where it gets 4 years. Maybe a second turn on the used market, and then it gets sold overseas. I hear the Middle East is a big consumer of used cars from the US. Also, "aging" is going to be heavily influenced by socioeconomic group. For some people, aesthetic damage to the paint or interior is enough to qualify as aging. Other people are more interested in the functionality, and other people are interested in whatever drives. I have friends that consider a 3 year old car to be aging, and I have friends who drive 10 year old cars and think they're just fine. I do think Teslas (and electric cars in general) are going to have an impact on the used car market, especially on the cheaper end. These batteries don't have tremendously long lifespans, and a replacement often costs as much as a cheap ICE car. I'm curious if there's going to be any profit in repairing electric cars with new batteries to sell them in Mexico or other parts of the globe, or if we're basically just going to be cutting off part of the used car market. The social impacts of developing countries losing access to a relatively cheap supply of vehicles could be bad.
      - unpolloloco 6y ago
        I think that also includes cars getting totalled early on in their lifespans? That would bring the average down appreciably!
    - sn_master 6y ago
      Average for modern cars is 20+ years, hence the 2021 change in odometer reporting regulations. It used to be 10 years before that based on older studies. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/odometer-disclosure-requirements-change https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/odometer-disclosure-req...
      - creeble 6y ago
        Your reference does not actually state anything about the average life of cars, just that reporting mileage is required for cars up to 20 years old. 20 x 13500 is 270k. I don't think that's average. https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm
        sn_master 6y ago
        Sorry about that. This is a more relevant link about the odometer ruling change with the actual statistics: https://dmvnv.com/news/20023-new-odometer-rules.htm https://dmvnv.com/news/20023-new-odometer-rules.htm "The average age of a vehicle in the U.S. is now almost 12 years, up from 7.6 years when the odometer rules were last changed in 1988."
  - cynix 6y ago
    > How is a three year old car aging? That's exactly what this recall is meant to address: that the eMMC is aging faster than what is reasonable.
    - xeromal 6y ago
      This is what I meant, but the person replying to me took offense. lol
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - gambiting 6y ago
    >>Are we switching to a disposable car model now? I'm afraid we have done long ago now. BMW estimates that 90% of buyers won't keep their car for longer than 3 years. They are rolling out a subscription model for features based on that fact - so you buy the car which has all the functions built-in from factory, but then pay an annual fee to unlock them. Fancy heated seats? You get a 7 day free trial, after that it's a paid unlock. Same with adaptive cruise control, adjustible suspension, sport driving modes, etc etc. Tesla might have pioneered this model but BMW is taking it all the way. And they have the gull to say it actually saves their customers money so it's a preferred option.
    - ianai 6y ago
      Bmw aren’t long term reliable and haven’t been for decades. Brands are not following their example.
    - prepend 6y ago
      That is the stupidest thing I’ve heard of. While providing some flexibility it increases the cost for customers who don’t subscribe.
    - LegitShady 6y ago
      I can't imagine buying a car with DLC/microtransactions. I wouldn't even buy one.
      - gambiting 6y ago
        Well, apparently companies love these - it means that work vehicles can all be bought in "basic" cheapest spec, but if the employee driving them wants fancy gadgets, they can pay for it from their own pocket! What's not to like?? /s
  - blackbrokkoli 6y ago
    It is in Tesla-land. To keep the meme bubble Musk's created alive and justify the market cap as well as personal buying decisions, it is neccessary to create a conversation where a Tesla is always the default, the "normal". Thus: A three year old car is "aging", the steering wheel falling off is no reason to complain [0] and buying a two-ton sportscar is the ultimate pro-environment move. [0] https://preview.redd.it/canfcfr00tw41.jpg?width=551&auto=webp&s=acc5aeb9780111f8c61b73dc8deb97ad3204db58 https://preview.redd.it/canfcfr00tw41.jpg?width=551&auto=web...
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      This isn't about market cap. It's about people doing mental gymnastics and adjusting expectation to feel like they got a fair deal or didn't get screwed. People make all the same excuses every time a Tacoma frame rusts out or the 3.4 eats a timing set.
      - crmrc114 6y ago
        Dont forget the early (08ish) powerstroke models that would do #fun things like vomit their glow plugs out randomly.
      - blackbrokkoli 6y ago
        We are agreeing actually. The group you are describing are the ones who bought the car. The one I am describing are the ones who are holding Tesla shares/options and doing mental gymnastics how Tesla is still undervalued and will moon forever.
- allengeorge 6y ago
  It’s mind-blowing to me that a 3-year car is considered aging. Anecdote time: my parents bought a secondhand 93 Toyota Corolla that I inherited and drove until 2011. They continued using it until 2018, and got rid of it. It was still running. A few plastic internals had failed and the engine was rough, but still going. It easily had another 5ish years on it.
  - riffraff 6y ago
    I owned a FIAT Punto for 13 years, did 250-300k kilometers with it and only replaced it because I had two kids and baby seats were a pain in the ass on a 3 doors model. Still worked like a charm, and it wasn't a particularly fancy model or brand. I hope GP just used "aging" meaning "not brand new", it would scare me deeply if we started replacing cars the way we do smartphones.
  - creeble 6y ago
    My 2014 Tesla has 345k miles on it. The battery still gets 210 miles. Everything still works - but the eMMC chip is failing.
    - ianai 6y ago
      How hard is the eMMC to replace?
    - murrayhenson 6y ago
      That's about 49300 miles a year, or about 200 miles a day if you drive five days a week, 50 weeks out of the year. That's a lot of driving. What has pushed you to be driving so much?
      - creeble 6y ago
        They aren't my miles but for ~5k; I bought it used. It was a "perq car" for a wine tour company.
  - Nition 6y ago
    I thought the same thing. The average car here (New Zealand, so not some third world country) is 14 years old.
- m463 6y ago
  The upgrade loses functions though - satellite antenna + radio.
  - creeble 6y ago
    And FM!
- fourlayers 6y ago
  Let's hope they can learn from it because they really need to. At least for user's comfort!
- sn_master 6y ago
  > I drive pretty often How many miles does the car have? The screen isn't a mechanical part. That's the equivalent of someone trying to justify their radio failing because they drive a lot.
  - bb123 6y ago
    More miles = more vibration and temperature changes
    - sn_master 6y ago
      Understood, but how many miles are we talking about here? I know plenty of cars with smaller touch screens that last the lifetime of the car (100k+ miles).
  - xeromal 6y ago
    In the article it states that the memory is burned every time a car is booted up and put in drive, that means if you drive many times each day,it's going to burn up faster than if you say, drive from LA to Vegas once a month. This is according to the Feds research. Sorry if my statement wasn't clear.
    - sn_master 6y ago
      Wow, this is quite upsetting.
dannyw 6y ago
Hopefully the cost of this recall exceeds the cost savings of Tesla choosing eMMC.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  eMMC is fine if used appropriately. The problem appears to be that Tesla is (or was) writing frequent log file updates to eMMC, resulting in huge write amplification and a quick exhaustion of wear cycles.
- syntaxing 6y ago
  What’s the alternative to using an eMMC? Straight up SSD?
  - post_break 6y ago
    Enterprise grade SD card in a location that can be replaced.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    If you buy in enough bulk, demand the emmc provider give you the source code and firmware update procedure for the emmc card. Get them to sign over rights to use that code to update cards you have purchased in the field. There is no such thing as a failed emmc card - it's simply that the built in firmware has failed to correctly remap data around failing flash sectors. There is always life left in the actual flash provided you're happy to throw enough error correction at it.
    - amluto 6y ago
      Tesla’s volume isn’t even close. A million cars is a lot of cars, but we’re talking about smartphone hardware. A million phones is not a lot of phones. The right solution is to use higher quality storage and to keep frequently-written logs on a removable device.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      This is true. Early SSDs had double digit failure rates because of buggy controllers. The situation has gotten better but if you stress out cheap eMMC in an embedded application like a car there is a decent chance that the controller fails.
jvanderbot 6y ago
I hate the obsession with touch screens. Screens are great ways to show information, but a terrible way to take input. No tactile feedback, stateful placement of buttons, multi modal displays that are not consistent. Etc. You could easily adjust features in your car while looking at the road using plain old dials and buttons.
- dannyw 6y ago
  I would love a hybrid approach: gimme touchscreens, gimme some physical controls especially for hardware actions like popping the trunk. C'mon, a software update isn't going to delete my trunk, so put a button for it.
  - margaretdouglas 6y ago
    That's how Crew Dragon works, I wish Elon would apply that process to his cars.
    - m463 6y ago
      Hard enough to control this stuff in a moving car, let alone in zero g and a hard vacuum. (you know, it could be because touch sensors don't work with space gloves)
  - zamfi 6y ago
    > gimme some physical controls especially for hardware actions like popping the trunk I'm with you on this, but it's a pretty great example of when a touchscreen isn't a safety hazard: very unlikely I'll want to pop the trunk while I need to keep my eyes on the road.
    - p1mrx 6y ago
      What if someone's trying to rear end me, and the trunk is where I keep my inflatable ramp?
    - smrq 6y ago
somerandomqaguy 6y ago
For those that care, the letter in question has been published by the NHTSA. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2020/INRM-EA20003-11321.pdf https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2020/INRM-EA20003-11321.pdf CNBC provided the link and they're saying Reuters broke the original story.
zaroth 6y ago
Tesla has already extended the warranty on this part to 8 years / 100,000 miles. [1] Their software now detects the issue before it occurs and adds a notification alerting the driver. [2] I assume the difference with a recall is there’s no limit to the age of the car, and it would have to be done proactively on all vehicles. Currently 15% of vehicles have had this issue according to Tesla. [1] - https://www.tesla.com/support/warranty-adjustment-program https://www.tesla.com/support/warranty-adjustment-program [2] - https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/96f386d3-2a95-496b-82c9-0df51470c44d-jpeg.608417/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/96f386d3-2a95-49...
- matt-attack 6y ago
  Neat that software can detect the failure. Anyone know how that works?
  - Zhenya 6y ago
    Probably an access / write counter.
  - dvdbloc 6y ago
    eMMC storage devices can provide a plethora of usage information to the eMMC controller such as read/write counters but also number of blocks of flash that have failed so far. After you hit a number of failed blocks the device could then send the notification to the user that failure is nearing. If you are curious this link expands a bit more on how this could work https://media-www.micron.com/-/media/client/global/documents/products/technical-note/sd-cards/tnsd02_enable_sd_health_monitor_system.pdf?rev=1fee627f3c974c139b3533bdd47a635f https://media-www.micron.com/-/media/client/global/documents...
- gibolt 6y ago
  There are a lot of owners who previously changed it themselves out of warranty. I assume they could get a refund now? One complication is that there were various reasons to upgrade, not just eMMC failure.
- snoshy 6y ago
userbinator 6y ago
is a safety issue since functions like the backup camera and defogging and defrosting setting controls stop working as well as audible chimes, which are used when the turn signal indicator is activated and to alert drivers while the vehicle’s Autopilot advanced driver assistance system is engaged Interesting choice of functionality to call out; IMHO backup camera is much lower in importance (Teslas still have rear windows and physical side-mirrors) but HVAC and other controls normally used when traveling forwards would definitely be high. How about things like the speedometer?
- octorian 6y ago
  > How about things like the speedometer? The speedometer is on the dashboard display, which is a somewhat independent unit that will work fine even if the MCU (center console display) isn't working correctly.
throw3848 6y ago
》At a daily cycle usage rate of 1.4 per block, accumulation of 3,000 P/E cycles would take only 5 to 6 years, the agency said. Designed lifetime of Tesla cars is about 6 years. After that parts like batteries start failing and need expensive replacement. There is no after market for parts and no second hand market. Normal car with basic maintenance lasts about 15-20 years. How is Tesla more "ecological" again?
- speedgoose 6y ago
  You mean the 12V battery right?
  - deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- creeble 6y ago
  See above. My 2014 has 345k on it, original battery, and still gets 210mi per charge. It is by no means the highest-mileage Tesla on the road.
  - jeroenhd 6y ago
    They're not necessarily wrong, though. That battery will fail some day, and I can guarantee that it will lose its charge before the normal life expectancy of a car (15-20 years) is over. If they still make batteries in 10 years then perhaps Tesla will prove to be the more ecological of the bunch. However, when I look for the price of a new battery for the Roadster, all I can find is discussions about how there are no batteries available, and if they are, the batteries are the price of a new, normal car. For the Model S, the price is much lower (about $13k + labour) but according to news posts I've found from the beginning of 2019, Tesla has already discontinued the batteries for that model. For any car to be ecological, replacement parts need to be available for years after the original sales date. For most petrol-based cars, this has not been a problem, but for silicon valley company cars, this can be a dangerous pitfall. Batteries can suddenly fail, making the entire car worthless if there's no replacement available for a decent price. It's a cool, high-tech car for rich people, which is a perfectly valid reason to get one, but if it really is that ecological only remains to be seen. Of course, it's still far more ecological to buy a used gasoline car and drive that around for another ten years than it is to buy a new EV purely because of the pollution that comes with producing a new car.
grecy 6y ago
I'm surprised Tesla can't push a firmware update that overwrites old data, or somehow negates this problem. It seems very short sighted of them.
- judge2020 6y ago
  That's not how eMMC work(s|ed): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25771963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25771963
  - m463 6y ago
    that's exactly how it works. just change the loglevel from debug to error, tesla.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      The fix is definitely that simple, and model 3/y doesn’t have (or hasn’t yet had) that issue, so they must have solved it. I think it’s unclear if this issue is still happening with recent software since I can’t find any reports about this message as of recent.
- paledot 6y ago
  The storage chip is wearing out from too many writes, it's not filling up.
  - m463 6y ago
    Every time they said that in the article, I was thinking the same thing.
dm319 6y ago
My motorbike is required to have the essential warning and information lights in a separate independent panel to the LCD screen. Whereas my Audi e-tron, and presumably the Telsa, doesn't seem to have this requirement, with the regular warning lights on the main screen.
- rkangel 6y ago
  Likely they had to jump through some additional regulatory hoops in order to meet the requirements.
  - H8crilA 6y ago
    Or maybe this is handled like the CEO's securities fraud deal with the SEC - by tweeting that SEC = Suck Elon's Cock.
dusted 6y ago
I'll consider buying a Tesla when all functionality can be accessed via physical buttons.
- ianai 6y ago
  I really wish they offered physical buttons. They could easily mock up a physical button 'break out box' and connect it to the system. It's how keyboards and mice have worked for eons...
- tomxor 6y ago
  Same, but I expect it wont happen. Looking forward to more options from other manufacturers that are capable of making a reasonable separation between what is vital and what is convenience or entertainment... and also generally not using touch screens for _anything_ while moving.
- AshleyGrant 6y ago
  I doubt there is a single car on the market today that satisfies this demand.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Unklejoe 6y ago
    BMW, at least the 2021 3 series. And probably other cars that are commonly used in cold climates where people wear gloves.
- nonbirithm 6y ago
  Fun fact: The only physical button in those Teslas is the hazard light toggle, because those are required by law to be physical controls.
  - creeble 6y ago
    And glove box release. Of course, there are buttons on the steering wheel and the stalks. Edit: Model S, I don't know about others.
sn_master 6y ago
Does anyone know what happened with the faulty door handles? There was a lawsuit in 2019 but I couldn't find any updates since then. Two separate accidents in 2018-2019, Model S crashed, fire started, owner (and passenger in the second case) survived the crash but couldn't get out of the car because the flush electronic door handles didn't unlock and present themselves out. The police officer on scene couldn't open it to get them out. Both cases everyone inside the car burnt to death [1][2][3]. In all modern cars, including the Model S [4] the doors are supposed to automatically unlock on a crash or airbag deployment. I haven't heard this happening on any other car (not that many cars use those flush door handles anyway). [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29576096/tesla-model-s-lawsuit-door-handles-fire/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29576096/tesla-model-s-la... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3CJuX8QdjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3CJuX8QdjM [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tetR1QHzHrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tetR1QHzHrM [4] Page 26 at https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Mod...
- 93po 6y ago
  The officer can't break a window?
  - sn_master 6y ago
    That's what the lawsuit says. I couldn't find first-hand details of what the police officer put in the report, but there are several theories [1] and videos [2] showing it can be pretty difficult even with blunt object tools. The absence of available time due to the raging fire definitely couldn't have helped either. [1] https://virginiatech.sportswar.com/mid/12654629/board/vtlounge/ https://virginiatech.sportswar.com/mid/12654629/board/vtloun... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0AlomPlAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0AlomPlAY
  - bartread 6y ago
    Car windows are pretty difficult to break. The front window is made out of laminate glass so that it won't shatter on a heavy impact (or simply a stone chip) and spray the occupants in the face with glass fragments or shards. Even if you crack it, or manage to make a hole in it, it's pretty difficult to get through it, and certainly difficult to make a hole big enough for a person to fit through. The side windows are made out of tempered glass, also known as safety glass, which when broken shatters into tiny pieces rather than large shards. However, it's really difficult to break. Blunt force often won't do it: you need quite a lot of force concentrated on a very small area. This is why glass breakers have quite sharp points and are often made of tungsten: it allows the to focus the force so that the glass will break on impact. It's possible the officers involved simply didn't have anything suitable for breaking the glass, and very likely that the occupants didn't. (Which reminds me: I've been meaning to put glass breakers in the door pockets of my car for ages. Must do that.)
sorenjan 6y ago
Turns out Automotive grade is a thing for a reason, and using best practices can be important even if you're an agile and new startup with a lot of hype. > Elon Musk bragged that the Model S's 17 inch screen isn't automotive grade, but now Tesla and its customers are mired in "replacement hell." https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...
- vardump 6y ago
  That causes eMMC to fail how? This issue is all about eMMC. Perhaps they should have used automotive (industrial/enterprise?) grade eMMC or something?
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    Isn't the eMMC failing because of excessive logging in Linux an old issue already?
  - creeble 6y ago
    It's a fairly crappy Hynix part. There are tons of better eMMC parts out there; this particular chip is known for not-great cycle life.
- sn_master 6y ago
  "..a bizarre problem that was clearly caused by thermal issues..Tesla appeared to mostly fix this problem with its "cabin overheat protection" feature (which it sold as being to protect dogs and children, despite the fact that it held the temperature at +40C which is about the temperature where a child's organs will start shutting down)" So they chose to intentionally reduce the car's range when parked in hot weather (e.g. a day hike in a forest where you need the range the most to return home) because they didn't get an automotive grade (Grade 2 instead of Grade 4) screen like every other auto manufacturer? wow..
  - Kirby64 6y ago
    Cabin overheat was never billed to protect children and dogs, as far as I know (besides Elon's tweet...). Plus, there's actual keep climate on features now that actually can keep it at whatever temperature you want. And you have the ability to turn it off completely if you want. I have to say, coming back to a car that is only 100F inside instead of 140F+ is great.
mwexler 6y ago
It's fascinating that the Jobs Reality Distortion Field is alive and well in Tesla. I don't own one, and each friend I ask tells me the same thing across S, 3, X, and Y: "Great tech! Amazing experience! I mean, sure, fit and finish is a problem, repairs take forever, hard to get parts, you just live with the smallish problems... Well, no, never had this many issues on <any other car brand> but this is the future I'm driving! I'll get even newer stuff in upgrades... Oh, the physical parts? That's a problem... But the savings! Of course, no gas payments! Well my power bill did increase, but it's gotta be cheaper than my gas." Each person was initially effusive then, when pushed, realistic. Sloppy assembly, broken features, things that we would never accept in a usd$90K car from any other brand... Til Tesla both lowered and raised the bar, depending on your pov. The power of Brand: the comfort with paying more for an item or service wirh equal or less quality than alternatives in general, but with one (or a small cluster of) perceived unique value prop. Amazing. And even with all the evidence of the problems, I still want one too... (A coda: the cutesy naming of tesla sort of sums it up around lots of flash, some amazing function, some tawdry qualities: the models sure are "s3xy".)
- Hamuko 6y ago
  >And even with all the evidence of the problems, I still want one too... Sometimes I think that owning a Tesla would be neat, but I always manage to kill that voice in my head by looking up the prices. Works every time.
  - sn_master 6y ago
    It's the interior that does it for me. Model 3 is the one I find the least appealing. I doubt as many buyers would have accepted that if it was from another manufacturer at the same price point.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      Oh yeah, not a fan of the ultra-minimalistic Model 3 interior. And if I understood it right, they didn't even bother to put windshield wiper controls on a physical button or stalk, which boggles my mind.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Another way to read this is the feds are trying to send the message "if you're gonna ship junk that you know will break please act like Toyota and run a rolling recall or be like the Koreans and offer a crazy warranty".
nashashmi 6y ago
It hurts me to no end the arrogance of the young engineers on pushing digital displays and completely removing analog displays. Of course when it comes to cars, this is actually a critical issue. But the same story has been playing out with all sorts of tech. The motive to reinvent something entirely instead of making gradual improvements is something I cannot understand. It is like rewriting the entire healthcare bill and completely disrespecting the work of the previous generation of lawmakers instead of progressively enhancing it. Maybe this comes out of genuine hate for the previous engineers. And if not hate, then they just didn't respect them much.
omarforgotpwd 6y ago
If my understanding is correct, essentially what happened here is that the computer that drives the touch screen was actually failing (MCU / media control unit). Apparently they were just logging so much stuff to disk that the flash storage would eventually wear out in a few years, due to the chips having a limited number of writes in their lifespan. this doesn’t affect the ability to drive but without the computer you can’t see your speedometer, many vehicle controls, etc. or even connect with your phone (which normally could replace the main display in a pinch). they changed the software to log less a while ago, but the damage was done on many cars. Not 100% sure this recall is related to the same issue but it sounds like that’s what they’re saying “ Investigators determined that the expected usage life rating for the 8GB eMMC NAND flash memory device is about 3,000 Program-Erase cycles, after which the eMMC NAND flash memory device would become fully consumed and no longer be operational. At a daily cycle usage rate of 1.4 per block, accumulation of 3,000 P/E cycles would take only five to six years, the agency said”

198 points by mardiyah 6y ago

This is great news for people who own an aging S or X. I have a 2017 Tesla and the screen started spazzing out on me a while back but I drive pretty often. I willfully purchased an upgrade that solved the problem as the new screen (MCU) doesn't have the same architecture that caused the failure. I'd be nice to be compensated for my willful upgrade but at least other people can stick it to Tesla. I LOVE the car and will stick to it that it's the best car I've ever owned but it has its flaws and hopefully this recall teaches Tesla a lesson.

echelon 6y ago
> own an aging S or X. I have a 2017 Tesla How is a three year old car aging? I have a twenty year old Honda and a six year old Toyota and both feel amazing. The Honda doesn't feel new, but it doesn't have any problems. All I have to do is change the oil. Are we switching to a disposable car model now?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > How is a three year old car aging? It shouldn't be; depending on source, average length of new car ownership in the US seems to be somewhere in the 7-9 year range, and average length of car ownership (including cars bought used) seems to be ~4 years, and average car lifespan seems to be around 15 years. A car 3-4 years from new shouldn't be “aging”.
  - Swenrekcah 6y ago
    That’s a terribly short lifespan IMO. I would have thought the shortest lifespan models to last at least 15 years. I hope they’re getting sold to Mexico or something, not scrapped.
    - curryst 6y ago
      That's likely what's happening. Owner buys it new, uses it for 7-9 years. Goes to the used market, where it gets 4 years. Maybe a second turn on the used market, and then it gets sold overseas. I hear the Middle East is a big consumer of used cars from the US. Also, "aging" is going to be heavily influenced by socioeconomic group. For some people, aesthetic damage to the paint or interior is enough to qualify as aging. Other people are more interested in the functionality, and other people are interested in whatever drives. I have friends that consider a 3 year old car to be aging, and I have friends who drive 10 year old cars and think they're just fine. I do think Teslas (and electric cars in general) are going to have an impact on the used car market, especially on the cheaper end. These batteries don't have tremendously long lifespans, and a replacement often costs as much as a cheap ICE car. I'm curious if there's going to be any profit in repairing electric cars with new batteries to sell them in Mexico or other parts of the globe, or if we're basically just going to be cutting off part of the used car market. The social impacts of developing countries losing access to a relatively cheap supply of vehicles could be bad.
    - unpolloloco 6y ago
      I think that also includes cars getting totalled early on in their lifespans? That would bring the average down appreciably!
  - sn_master 6y ago
    Average for modern cars is 20+ years, hence the 2021 change in odometer reporting regulations. It used to be 10 years before that based on older studies. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/odometer-disclosure-requirements-change https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/odometer-disclosure-req...
    - creeble 6y ago
      Your reference does not actually state anything about the average life of cars, just that reporting mileage is required for cars up to 20 years old. 20 x 13500 is 270k. I don't think that's average. https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm
      - sn_master 6y ago
        Sorry about that. This is a more relevant link about the odometer ruling change with the actual statistics: https://dmvnv.com/news/20023-new-odometer-rules.htm https://dmvnv.com/news/20023-new-odometer-rules.htm "The average age of a vehicle in the U.S. is now almost 12 years, up from 7.6 years when the odometer rules were last changed in 1988."
- cynix 6y ago
  > How is a three year old car aging? That's exactly what this recall is meant to address: that the eMMC is aging faster than what is reasonable.
  - xeromal 6y ago
    This is what I meant, but the person replying to me took offense. lol
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- gambiting 6y ago
  >>Are we switching to a disposable car model now? I'm afraid we have done long ago now. BMW estimates that 90% of buyers won't keep their car for longer than 3 years. They are rolling out a subscription model for features based on that fact - so you buy the car which has all the functions built-in from factory, but then pay an annual fee to unlock them. Fancy heated seats? You get a 7 day free trial, after that it's a paid unlock. Same with adaptive cruise control, adjustible suspension, sport driving modes, etc etc. Tesla might have pioneered this model but BMW is taking it all the way. And they have the gull to say it actually saves their customers money so it's a preferred option.
  - ianai 6y ago
    Bmw aren’t long term reliable and haven’t been for decades. Brands are not following their example.
  - prepend 6y ago
    That is the stupidest thing I’ve heard of. While providing some flexibility it increases the cost for customers who don’t subscribe.
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    I can't imagine buying a car with DLC/microtransactions. I wouldn't even buy one.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      Well, apparently companies love these - it means that work vehicles can all be bought in "basic" cheapest spec, but if the employee driving them wants fancy gadgets, they can pay for it from their own pocket! What's not to like?? /s
- blackbrokkoli 6y ago
  It is in Tesla-land. To keep the meme bubble Musk's created alive and justify the market cap as well as personal buying decisions, it is neccessary to create a conversation where a Tesla is always the default, the "normal". Thus: A three year old car is "aging", the steering wheel falling off is no reason to complain [0] and buying a two-ton sportscar is the ultimate pro-environment move. [0] https://preview.redd.it/canfcfr00tw41.jpg?width=551&auto=webp&s=acc5aeb9780111f8c61b73dc8deb97ad3204db58 https://preview.redd.it/canfcfr00tw41.jpg?width=551&auto=web...
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    This isn't about market cap. It's about people doing mental gymnastics and adjusting expectation to feel like they got a fair deal or didn't get screwed. People make all the same excuses every time a Tacoma frame rusts out or the 3.4 eats a timing set.
    - crmrc114 6y ago
      Dont forget the early (08ish) powerstroke models that would do #fun things like vomit their glow plugs out randomly.
    - blackbrokkoli 6y ago
      We are agreeing actually. The group you are describing are the ones who bought the car. The one I am describing are the ones who are holding Tesla shares/options and doing mental gymnastics how Tesla is still undervalued and will moon forever.
allengeorge 6y ago
It’s mind-blowing to me that a 3-year car is considered aging. Anecdote time: my parents bought a secondhand 93 Toyota Corolla that I inherited and drove until 2011. They continued using it until 2018, and got rid of it. It was still running. A few plastic internals had failed and the engine was rough, but still going. It easily had another 5ish years on it.
- riffraff 6y ago
  I owned a FIAT Punto for 13 years, did 250-300k kilometers with it and only replaced it because I had two kids and baby seats were a pain in the ass on a 3 doors model. Still worked like a charm, and it wasn't a particularly fancy model or brand. I hope GP just used "aging" meaning "not brand new", it would scare me deeply if we started replacing cars the way we do smartphones.
- creeble 6y ago
  My 2014 Tesla has 345k miles on it. The battery still gets 210 miles. Everything still works - but the eMMC chip is failing.
  - ianai 6y ago
    How hard is the eMMC to replace?
  - murrayhenson 6y ago
    That's about 49300 miles a year, or about 200 miles a day if you drive five days a week, 50 weeks out of the year. That's a lot of driving. What has pushed you to be driving so much?
    - creeble 6y ago
      They aren't my miles but for ~5k; I bought it used. It was a "perq car" for a wine tour company.
- Nition 6y ago
  I thought the same thing. The average car here (New Zealand, so not some third world country) is 14 years old.
m463 6y ago
The upgrade loses functions though - satellite antenna + radio.
- creeble 6y ago
  And FM!
fourlayers 6y ago
Let's hope they can learn from it because they really need to. At least for user's comfort!
sn_master 6y ago
> I drive pretty often How many miles does the car have? The screen isn't a mechanical part. That's the equivalent of someone trying to justify their radio failing because they drive a lot.
- bb123 6y ago
  More miles = more vibration and temperature changes
  - sn_master 6y ago
    Understood, but how many miles are we talking about here? I know plenty of cars with smaller touch screens that last the lifetime of the car (100k+ miles).
- xeromal 6y ago
  In the article it states that the memory is burned every time a car is booted up and put in drive, that means if you drive many times each day,it's going to burn up faster than if you say, drive from LA to Vegas once a month. This is according to the Feds research. Sorry if my statement wasn't clear.
  - sn_master 6y ago
    Wow, this is quite upsetting.

dannyw 6y ago

Hopefully the cost of this recall exceeds the cost savings of Tesla choosing eMMC.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
eMMC is fine if used appropriately. The problem appears to be that Tesla is (or was) writing frequent log file updates to eMMC, resulting in huge write amplification and a quick exhaustion of wear cycles.
syntaxing 6y ago
What’s the alternative to using an eMMC? Straight up SSD?
- post_break 6y ago
  Enterprise grade SD card in a location that can be replaced.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  If you buy in enough bulk, demand the emmc provider give you the source code and firmware update procedure for the emmc card. Get them to sign over rights to use that code to update cards you have purchased in the field. There is no such thing as a failed emmc card - it's simply that the built in firmware has failed to correctly remap data around failing flash sectors. There is always life left in the actual flash provided you're happy to throw enough error correction at it.
  - amluto 6y ago
    Tesla’s volume isn’t even close. A million cars is a lot of cars, but we’re talking about smartphone hardware. A million phones is not a lot of phones. The right solution is to use higher quality storage and to keep frequently-written logs on a removable device.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    This is true. Early SSDs had double digit failure rates because of buggy controllers. The situation has gotten better but if you stress out cheap eMMC in an embedded application like a car there is a decent chance that the controller fails.

jvanderbot 6y ago

I hate the obsession with touch screens. Screens are great ways to show information, but a terrible way to take input. No tactile feedback, stateful placement of buttons, multi modal displays that are not consistent. Etc. You could easily adjust features in your car while looking at the road using plain old dials and buttons.

dannyw 6y ago
I would love a hybrid approach: gimme touchscreens, gimme some physical controls especially for hardware actions like popping the trunk. C'mon, a software update isn't going to delete my trunk, so put a button for it.
- margaretdouglas 6y ago
  That's how Crew Dragon works, I wish Elon would apply that process to his cars.
  - m463 6y ago
    Hard enough to control this stuff in a moving car, let alone in zero g and a hard vacuum. (you know, it could be because touch sensors don't work with space gloves)
- zamfi 6y ago
  > gimme some physical controls especially for hardware actions like popping the trunk I'm with you on this, but it's a pretty great example of when a touchscreen isn't a safety hazard: very unlikely I'll want to pop the trunk while I need to keep my eyes on the road.
  - p1mrx 6y ago
    What if someone's trying to rear end me, and the trunk is where I keep my inflatable ramp?
  - smrq 6y ago

somerandomqaguy 6y ago

For those that care, the letter in question has been published by the NHTSA. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2020/INRM-EA20003-11321.pdf https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2020/INRM-EA20003-11321.pdf CNBC provided the link and they're saying Reuters broke the original story.

zaroth 6y ago

Tesla has already extended the warranty on this part to 8 years / 100,000 miles. [1] Their software now detects the issue before it occurs and adds a notification alerting the driver. [2] I assume the difference with a recall is there’s no limit to the age of the car, and it would have to be done proactively on all vehicles. Currently 15% of vehicles have had this issue according to Tesla. [1] - https://www.tesla.com/support/warranty-adjustment-program https://www.tesla.com/support/warranty-adjustment-program [2] - https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/96f386d3-2a95-496b-82c9-0df51470c44d-jpeg.608417/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/96f386d3-2a95-49...

matt-attack 6y ago
Neat that software can detect the failure. Anyone know how that works?
- Zhenya 6y ago
  Probably an access / write counter.
- dvdbloc 6y ago
  eMMC storage devices can provide a plethora of usage information to the eMMC controller such as read/write counters but also number of blocks of flash that have failed so far. After you hit a number of failed blocks the device could then send the notification to the user that failure is nearing. If you are curious this link expands a bit more on how this could work https://media-www.micron.com/-/media/client/global/documents/products/technical-note/sd-cards/tnsd02_enable_sd_health_monitor_system.pdf?rev=1fee627f3c974c139b3533bdd47a635f https://media-www.micron.com/-/media/client/global/documents...
gibolt 6y ago
There are a lot of owners who previously changed it themselves out of warranty. I assume they could get a refund now? One complication is that there were various reasons to upgrade, not just eMMC failure.
snoshy 6y ago

userbinator 6y ago

is a safety issue since functions like the backup camera and defogging and defrosting setting controls stop working as well as audible chimes, which are used when the turn signal indicator is activated and to alert drivers while the vehicle’s Autopilot advanced driver assistance system is engaged Interesting choice of functionality to call out; IMHO backup camera is much lower in importance (Teslas still have rear windows and physical side-mirrors) but HVAC and other controls normally used when traveling forwards would definitely be high. How about things like the speedometer?

octorian 6y ago
> How about things like the speedometer? The speedometer is on the dashboard display, which is a somewhat independent unit that will work fine even if the MCU (center console display) isn't working correctly.

throw3848 6y ago

》At a daily cycle usage rate of 1.4 per block, accumulation of 3,000 P/E cycles would take only 5 to 6 years, the agency said. Designed lifetime of Tesla cars is about 6 years. After that parts like batteries start failing and need expensive replacement. There is no after market for parts and no second hand market. Normal car with basic maintenance lasts about 15-20 years. How is Tesla more "ecological" again?

speedgoose 6y ago
You mean the 12V battery right?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
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creeble 6y ago
See above. My 2014 has 345k on it, original battery, and still gets 210mi per charge. It is by no means the highest-mileage Tesla on the road.
- jeroenhd 6y ago
  They're not necessarily wrong, though. That battery will fail some day, and I can guarantee that it will lose its charge before the normal life expectancy of a car (15-20 years) is over. If they still make batteries in 10 years then perhaps Tesla will prove to be the more ecological of the bunch. However, when I look for the price of a new battery for the Roadster, all I can find is discussions about how there are no batteries available, and if they are, the batteries are the price of a new, normal car. For the Model S, the price is much lower (about $13k + labour) but according to news posts I've found from the beginning of 2019, Tesla has already discontinued the batteries for that model. For any car to be ecological, replacement parts need to be available for years after the original sales date. For most petrol-based cars, this has not been a problem, but for silicon valley company cars, this can be a dangerous pitfall. Batteries can suddenly fail, making the entire car worthless if there's no replacement available for a decent price. It's a cool, high-tech car for rich people, which is a perfectly valid reason to get one, but if it really is that ecological only remains to be seen. Of course, it's still far more ecological to buy a used gasoline car and drive that around for another ten years than it is to buy a new EV purely because of the pollution that comes with producing a new car.

grecy 6y ago

I'm surprised Tesla can't push a firmware update that overwrites old data, or somehow negates this problem. It seems very short sighted of them.

judge2020 6y ago
That's not how eMMC work(s|ed): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25771963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25771963
- m463 6y ago
  that's exactly how it works. just change the loglevel from debug to error, tesla.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    The fix is definitely that simple, and model 3/y doesn’t have (or hasn’t yet had) that issue, so they must have solved it. I think it’s unclear if this issue is still happening with recent software since I can’t find any reports about this message as of recent.
paledot 6y ago
The storage chip is wearing out from too many writes, it's not filling up.
- m463 6y ago
  Every time they said that in the article, I was thinking the same thing.

dm319 6y ago

My motorbike is required to have the essential warning and information lights in a separate independent panel to the LCD screen. Whereas my Audi e-tron, and presumably the Telsa, doesn't seem to have this requirement, with the regular warning lights on the main screen.

rkangel 6y ago
Likely they had to jump through some additional regulatory hoops in order to meet the requirements.
- H8crilA 6y ago
  Or maybe this is handled like the CEO's securities fraud deal with the SEC - by tweeting that SEC = Suck Elon's Cock.

dusted 6y ago

I'll consider buying a Tesla when all functionality can be accessed via physical buttons.

ianai 6y ago
I really wish they offered physical buttons. They could easily mock up a physical button 'break out box' and connect it to the system. It's how keyboards and mice have worked for eons...
tomxor 6y ago
Same, but I expect it wont happen. Looking forward to more options from other manufacturers that are capable of making a reasonable separation between what is vital and what is convenience or entertainment... and also generally not using touch screens for _anything_ while moving.
AshleyGrant 6y ago
I doubt there is a single car on the market today that satisfies this demand.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Unklejoe 6y ago
  BMW, at least the 2021 3 series. And probably other cars that are commonly used in cold climates where people wear gloves.
nonbirithm 6y ago
Fun fact: The only physical button in those Teslas is the hazard light toggle, because those are required by law to be physical controls.
- creeble 6y ago
  And glove box release. Of course, there are buttons on the steering wheel and the stalks. Edit: Model S, I don't know about others.

sn_master 6y ago

Does anyone know what happened with the faulty door handles? There was a lawsuit in 2019 but I couldn't find any updates since then. Two separate accidents in 2018-2019, Model S crashed, fire started, owner (and passenger in the second case) survived the crash but couldn't get out of the car because the flush electronic door handles didn't unlock and present themselves out. The police officer on scene couldn't open it to get them out. Both cases everyone inside the car burnt to death [1][2][3]. In all modern cars, including the Model S [4] the doors are supposed to automatically unlock on a crash or airbag deployment. I haven't heard this happening on any other car (not that many cars use those flush door handles anyway). [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29576096/tesla-model-s-lawsuit-door-handles-fire/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29576096/tesla-model-s-la... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3CJuX8QdjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3CJuX8QdjM [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tetR1QHzHrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tetR1QHzHrM [4] Page 26 at https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Mod...

93po 6y ago
The officer can't break a window?
- sn_master 6y ago
  That's what the lawsuit says. I couldn't find first-hand details of what the police officer put in the report, but there are several theories [1] and videos [2] showing it can be pretty difficult even with blunt object tools. The absence of available time due to the raging fire definitely couldn't have helped either. [1] https://virginiatech.sportswar.com/mid/12654629/board/vtlounge/ https://virginiatech.sportswar.com/mid/12654629/board/vtloun... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0AlomPlAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0AlomPlAY
- bartread 6y ago
  Car windows are pretty difficult to break. The front window is made out of laminate glass so that it won't shatter on a heavy impact (or simply a stone chip) and spray the occupants in the face with glass fragments or shards. Even if you crack it, or manage to make a hole in it, it's pretty difficult to get through it, and certainly difficult to make a hole big enough for a person to fit through. The side windows are made out of tempered glass, also known as safety glass, which when broken shatters into tiny pieces rather than large shards. However, it's really difficult to break. Blunt force often won't do it: you need quite a lot of force concentrated on a very small area. This is why glass breakers have quite sharp points and are often made of tungsten: it allows the to focus the force so that the glass will break on impact. It's possible the officers involved simply didn't have anything suitable for breaking the glass, and very likely that the occupants didn't. (Which reminds me: I've been meaning to put glass breakers in the door pockets of my car for ages. Must do that.)

sorenjan 6y ago

Turns out Automotive grade is a thing for a reason, and using best practices can be important even if you're an agile and new startup with a lot of hype. > Elon Musk bragged that the Model S's 17 inch screen isn't automotive grade, but now Tesla and its customers are mired in "replacement hell." https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...

vardump 6y ago
That causes eMMC to fail how? This issue is all about eMMC. Perhaps they should have used automotive (industrial/enterprise?) grade eMMC or something?
- Hamuko 6y ago
  Isn't the eMMC failing because of excessive logging in Linux an old issue already?
- creeble 6y ago
  It's a fairly crappy Hynix part. There are tons of better eMMC parts out there; this particular chip is known for not-great cycle life.
sn_master 6y ago
"..a bizarre problem that was clearly caused by thermal issues..Tesla appeared to mostly fix this problem with its "cabin overheat protection" feature (which it sold as being to protect dogs and children, despite the fact that it held the temperature at +40C which is about the temperature where a child's organs will start shutting down)" So they chose to intentionally reduce the car's range when parked in hot weather (e.g. a day hike in a forest where you need the range the most to return home) because they didn't get an automotive grade (Grade 2 instead of Grade 4) screen like every other auto manufacturer? wow..
- Kirby64 6y ago
  Cabin overheat was never billed to protect children and dogs, as far as I know (besides Elon's tweet...). Plus, there's actual keep climate on features now that actually can keep it at whatever temperature you want. And you have the ability to turn it off completely if you want. I have to say, coming back to a car that is only 100F inside instead of 140F+ is great.

mwexler 6y ago

It's fascinating that the Jobs Reality Distortion Field is alive and well in Tesla. I don't own one, and each friend I ask tells me the same thing across S, 3, X, and Y: "Great tech! Amazing experience! I mean, sure, fit and finish is a problem, repairs take forever, hard to get parts, you just live with the smallish problems... Well, no, never had this many issues on <any other car brand> but this is the future I'm driving! I'll get even newer stuff in upgrades... Oh, the physical parts? That's a problem... But the savings! Of course, no gas payments! Well my power bill did increase, but it's gotta be cheaper than my gas." Each person was initially effusive then, when pushed, realistic. Sloppy assembly, broken features, things that we would never accept in a usd$90K car from any other brand... Til Tesla both lowered and raised the bar, depending on your pov. The power of Brand: the comfort with paying more for an item or service wirh equal or less quality than alternatives in general, but with one (or a small cluster of) perceived unique value prop. Amazing. And even with all the evidence of the problems, I still want one too... (A coda: the cutesy naming of tesla sort of sums it up around lots of flash, some amazing function, some tawdry qualities: the models sure are "s3xy".)

Hamuko 6y ago
>And even with all the evidence of the problems, I still want one too... Sometimes I think that owning a Tesla would be neat, but I always manage to kill that voice in my head by looking up the prices. Works every time.
- sn_master 6y ago
  It's the interior that does it for me. Model 3 is the one I find the least appealing. I doubt as many buyers would have accepted that if it was from another manufacturer at the same price point.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    Oh yeah, not a fan of the ultra-minimalistic Model 3 interior. And if I understood it right, they didn't even bother to put windshield wiper controls on a physical button or stalk, which boggles my mind.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

Another way to read this is the feds are trying to send the message "if you're gonna ship junk that you know will break please act like Toyota and run a rolling recall or be like the Koreans and offer a crazy warranty".

nashashmi 6y ago

It hurts me to no end the arrogance of the young engineers on pushing digital displays and completely removing analog displays. Of course when it comes to cars, this is actually a critical issue. But the same story has been playing out with all sorts of tech. The motive to reinvent something entirely instead of making gradual improvements is something I cannot understand. It is like rewriting the entire healthcare bill and completely disrespecting the work of the previous generation of lawmakers instead of progressively enhancing it. Maybe this comes out of genuine hate for the previous engineers. And if not hate, then they just didn't respect them much.

omarforgotpwd 6y ago

If my understanding is correct, essentially what happened here is that the computer that drives the touch screen was actually failing (MCU / media control unit). Apparently they were just logging so much stuff to disk that the flash storage would eventually wear out in a few years, due to the chips having a limited number of writes in their lifespan. this doesn’t affect the ability to drive but without the computer you can’t see your speedometer, many vehicle controls, etc. or even connect with your phone (which normally could replace the main display in a pinch). they changed the software to log less a while ago, but the damage was done on many cars. Not 100% sure this recall is related to the same issue but it sounds like that’s what they’re saying “ Investigators determined that the expected usage life rating for the 8GB eMMC NAND flash memory device is about 3,000 Program-Erase cycles, after which the eMMC NAND flash memory device would become fully consumed and no longer be operational. At a daily cycle usage rate of 1.4 per block, accumulation of 3,000 P/E cycles would take only five to six years, the agency said”