29 ms·

Workaholism leads to health problems, work addiction risk depends on occupation

445 points by rustoo 6y ago

whalesalad 6y ago
I would posit that deeper psychological issues are what lead someone to workaholism (as a maladaptive coping mechanism). I believe it is a symptom of a larger issue which is what ultimately leads to the problems with mental and physical health.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Sometimes lack of social contact or purpose in life, abuse, loneliness and depression can lead to workaholism, sometimes it's having drunk the cool-aid and chasing the carrot on the stick, or even more common, it's simply lacking better employment options in your area leading you to cave in to soft pressure from your employer which then leads to burn-out/depression.
- astura 6y ago
  Yeah, I know someone whose workaholism is caused by abuse experienced during childhood. It's so obvious to me.
  - whalesalad 6y ago
    It is unfortunately extremely common.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  It's always a chicken vs the egg scenario. While the initial steps into workaholism may be from other issues, eventually it can become the cause of many others.
- exclusiv 6y ago
  That makes more sense to me than the other way around. As a workaholic, and learnaholic, I did it as a path to financial freedom and to accelerate my learning at at time I knew I had the bandwidth and will. It made me a better entrepreneur and business owner later, which is what I really wanted to do. But as I've gotten older and have a family now I've been removing obligations for my businesses. And working more normal schedules. Taking random times off to help. Being better at triaging what's really needed from my time. Yet, I wouldn't have change a thing with my path. It's hard to get to financial freedom and the goal of owning your own businesses with 40 hrs a week. I don't think working more than the normal is necessarily a bad thing. Some people actually do enjoy their jobs. Or their team. Or they enjoy learning. I know it's hard for some people to understand why some people are workaholics. I certainly have friends that don't like their jobs that have said I work too much. If you hate your 40 hour job, it's hard to imagine doing any more than that. In the right environment, the 7+ hours per week extra to be considered a workaholic isn't much different from reading books or practicing your craft in your free time.
  - whalesalad 6y ago
    One man's crippling workaholism is another man's dream life. To one it could be an escape or avoidance of their true self and to another it could be the most rewarding work of all. That is to say, I do not think immersing yourself in your work and working crazy long hours is inherently a bad thing. You can certainly thrive on that energy with the right balance.
  - Dudeman112 6y ago
    Except most people don't already spend 40h per week reading books or practicing their crafts. If they spent 47h per week doing it, people would call it unhealthy too. (or dedicated, if they have no sense of healthy temperance at all)
    - exclusiv 6y ago
      > Except most people don't already spend 40h per week reading books or practicing their crafts. If someone does the average only (40 hrs) and does 7 hours of personal learning on their craft in their spare time - nobody would consider them a workaholic. That's what I'm trying to say. I work more than the average just like many on this board. Well guess what? I'm more skilled than the average. And I have a wider range of skills than most (from software engineering to marketing). I didn't get there by clocking 40 at each role or at my own businesses. And I probably wouldn't have been able to build successful businesses without going deep into learning for years ahead of time. To many - the extra work hours are a focus on their craft and learning. I'll add marketing tech skills. Or customer acquisition skills. Or finance. If I was reading marketing books for 7 hours per week that wouldn't be equated with working. That would be called learning. And to many people - that's a huge part of their life. Just because my hobby or thirst of information may include "work", doesn't mean people with knitting hobbies after they clock out 40 have a better work/life balance. To me - some of my work is a hobby because I find it fascinating and I'll explore different industries much like someone may explore different cuisines in their home chef hobby. Also - I still have more regular hobbies than most people I know, because apart from some Hacker News time, I don't spend 2-3 hours daily on social media like most people. I don't get the work/life movement (apart from employer abuse of some employees). Do you truly enjoy your life or not? Life balance is more appropriate to consider.
bondarchuk 6y ago
Typical case of inverting cause and effect.
- sn41 6y ago
  Or an incidence of correlation and not causation. Not that correlation does not mater.
ystad 6y ago
Difficult to disagree, especially when you are working on a job that is not satisying intellectually and emotionally. All the money in the world doesn't help
brundolf 6y ago
> There are potential reasons for that: financial problems, ... Does it really count as an addiction if you're doing it because of genuine financial problems? I always thought of proper workaholism as an unhealthy addiction to the dopamine rush you get when you're successful at your job. I've experienced a mild version of this in the past when I didn't have enough else that was fulfilling me in my life; like many addictions, it was a crutch against depression.
markus_zhang 6y ago
I believe workaholists do not neccesarily love their job, but hate something else so much that they would rather find some place to take a bit of rest. I think I'm developing into one...
- hanniabu 6y ago
  I'm one and personally I have a lot of pride in my work, no matter what I'm doing, so it takes me longer to do things than someone else that just scraps things together. This leads to me spending way more time on work.
  - tenebrisalietum 6y ago
    Overfocus on details or over-perfection could be a symptom of anxiety.
    - hanniabu 6y ago
      Pretty sure anxiety is a symptom of the perfectionism, not the cause
      - jolmg 6y ago
        I think it could go either way. That makes it viable for a vicious cycle.
- mindracer 6y ago
  A manager of mine used to do 12-14 hour day Monday-Friday and sometimes go to the office to work over the weekend as well. Him and his girlfriend weren’t getting on at the time and he’d rather be working than in the house with her
  - markus_zhang 6y ago
    Yeah definitely. Sometimes you can't simply cut something away so you have to try to stay away from it as long as possible. I think the situation would improve if they just separate.
throwaway91627 6y ago
Learned this the hard way. Spent the last 7 years grinding text books resulting in a place on a Masters in CS and a ~$200k income while working remotely from the UK (without a degree, at 26). Whole purpose was to earn as much as I could and it took over my life. Now I’m on antidepressants and overweight. Recently quit my uni course and job, and settled for a role around $65k with a New Years resolution to never be a workaholic again. Feeling better already :)
- qmmmur 6y ago
  What did you work in if you don't mind me asking?
  - throwaway91627 6y ago
    Was a software developer but realised it’s much easier to be competitive, if you’re a good but not great dev, to get higher paying SDET roles.
    - randomopining 6y ago
      Don’t they get paid much less? Let’s say you’re a 7/10 dev, wouldn’t you get paid more as a dev?
      - throwaway91627 6y ago
        Honestly, no. I found salaries were similar for the same level of role (maybe a little more in dev) but I was able to get much more senior SDET roles which counteracted this. Instead of being a mid-level dev, I was a senior/lead SDET approaching staff level. Edit: When I made the shift initially from dev to SDET, I had a 50% pay rise. In London I regularly get approached for £85k/$100k roles as an SDET. True devs might earn more than that at the same companies but it’s already much higher than most devs earn in the UK, and I’m not experienced enough to compete for the dev counterpart roles.
- supernihil 6y ago
dfee 6y ago
Because none of the comments (yet) reflect the content of the article, here is a useful excerpt that should help refocus us: > The results show that high job demands at work are strongly associated with work addiction risk but the job control level does not play the same role. The prevalence of work addiction risk is higher for active and high-strain workers than for passive and low-strain workers. These two groups of workers appeared to be more vulnerable and therefore can suffer more from the negative outcomes of work addiction risk, in terms of depression, sleep disorder, stress and other health issues. For a definition of the four types of working situations, they’re in the article and marked with battery icons.
haram_masala 6y ago
I honestly think my mental and physical health are so much better than they should be at my age because I don't take work as seriously as my colleagues. Though, I'm fairly certain I've missed out on a few promotions.
- pbrb 6y ago
  I'm with you this. I still do work very hard and definitely too much, but I made a decision in my mid 20s to never let work stress actually affect me. Or, at least try not to. I think it actually helped me get promoted when working at startups, but now that I'm working at an 'elite' company, I've definitely missed out on promotions. I'm just not willing to work 14 hr days, every day, to hit arbitrary dates on a calendar.
wincy 6y ago
After our second daughter was born with a disability and we didn’t know if she’d make it to her first birthday I threw myself into my new job utterly. I was working 7-7 almost every day, took every opportunity to travel, and in general was absent from the situation as much as my “very important job” would allow. For me I felt completely powerless at the hospital. At work I got to solve “important” problems that were trivial in comparison to the things I had no control over, and was rewarded for doing so. It felt good to be useful when my life felt in complete chaos outside of work. At one point I stayed up all night to wrap up a project that wasn’t even that important. My boss, rather than being happy with me, sat me down and said I needed to make sure to sleep and take care of myself, that I was going to burn myself out. I really appreciate him saying that in retrospect, even though I felt a little offended at the time. I try to balance work and home life, and have developed a great relationship with my daughter, now two. In retrospect I wish I’d had the emotional stability to spend more time at the hospital, and to provide more emotional support for my wife who was saddled with going to the hospital almost every day. Things are better now, our daughter is doing very well, but the workaholism can be because of external factors, as overworking made me able to ignore the other, more depressing parts of my life where I lacked control.
- vmception 6y ago
  I was most focused on my career after a breakup. The structure of the work environment coupled with the reward is pretty unparalleled. Other things I can think of with structure usually have a kind of endless goal that can't be spent at your discretion. Rehab, fitness, organized religion. I've never done rehab, but it seems to overlap with fitness where even if you gamify it with achievements, its not like a game at all because you have to do the same achievement the next day and forever. The earnings, advancement, structure and distraction do have their place especially when your personal relationships and life isn't going the way you want it.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    I find all of this so hard to relate with. I’ve worked for a decade, have a high paying job and have been promoted multiple times but to me none of it is enjoyable. I don’t think I could ever be happy in a situation where I’m required to do something for 9 hours everyday. I can’t get around the idea that all of this a weak abstraction to make money and care very little for approval from authority figures.
eloff 6y ago
I think one needs to distinguish between being a workaholic for some corporation and doing it because you're starting a company or working for yourself. The former is obviously going to be painful and the latter might not even feel that much like work. Maybe I'm just justifying because I'm definitely a workaholic, and I'm in the second scenario and it feels totally sustainable. The first scenario I also did, and it was hell, I wouldn't do it again. It was a necessary evil to get the financial security to start my business (self angel funding - no permission required, no strings attached.)
- long_warmup 6y ago
  I was in the second scenario. It definitely is workaholism, and from my own experience the price check your body, mind and family gives in the end is not worth the financial gain...
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  I agree with all of this, though it's possible I'm also just justifying it to myself. I will say though that 8 hours working for someone else felt like a grind... but I can easily do 10-12 if I give myself an interesting project to work on. It feels really meaningful to me...
- ivan_ah 6y ago
  Yeah working for yourself is a big trap to watch out for. I have fallen for it numerous times. The problem is when you're working for yourself (or a worthy non-commercial cause) work feels more fun and worthwhile, but the health damage is kind of the same (long hours, lack of exercises, sub-optimal nutrition). Despite it "feeling good," working in this over-capacity regime ends up really inefficient (since you're tired and not seeing the big picture). One thing that I find helps is to get other people involved (e.g. collaborators, reviewers, users, etc) then allow yourself to take breaks, while still knowing work on the project is continuing by others.
  - eloff 6y ago
    I take care to eat well and exercise 4-5 times a week. I think that's critical. I also don't do any hobbies and only see friends a few times a year - all my free time goes to my wife, which is how I manage 60 hour weeks while being married.
dfilppi 6y ago
Are we expected to believe that there are workaholics in France? Now 'strikaholics' I can believe.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar. Last thing we need here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
NalNezumi 6y ago
>"Workaholics are people who usually work seven and more hours more than others per week." >"Workaholism is also known as a behavioural disorder, which means the excessive involvement of the individual in work when an employer doesn’t require or expect it." >"The results show that high job demands at work are strongly associated with work addiction risk but the job control level does not play the same role." In a first glance, the definition of Workaholism seems like something very culture/country dependent. In places such as Japan with pressure to stay longer than your boss, working longer to "show you're working hard", a lot of people might be categorized as workaholic without actually being one. What the model seems to not include is, and I think contributes way more to work related mental health issue is emotional investment in work. Too much emotional investment seems to lead to unreasonable stress when things are not going accordingly, while not helping much when things are going well. (Which is natural ofc, emotionally we remember negative events/failure more. It being tied to our self-worth or something deeply emotional, is problematic though.) I left my previous company because of this reason; the project wasn't going anywhere, horribly mismanaged including unrealistic goal settings. But I've had this condition before on other jobs, but only on this one did I get so emotionally invested that I spent ridiculous over-time until burnout trying to make things (out of my control) work. In retrospective, what made it all worse was that I liked my coworker a lot at my previous work, and seeing them work hard on other project while my project were going nowhere, made me more invested. The company-culture that made reaching out to others for feedback/brain storm/help hard, was also strong contributing factor.
- rimiform 6y ago
  You're absolutely bang-on with the cultural dependence thing. Here, in Europe (although this seems to be changing), it's normal to work fewer hours than would be customary in North America. So, your threshold for 'workaholism' would be lower. I'm not sure if this is a Western thing or whatever it might be, but for some reason a lot of social science researchers neglect to mention that their research is done on a specific cultural group. You could say "... in the US" for this title, but I rarely see this done.
- vasco 6y ago
  To think that you can somehow not be emotionally invested in the thing you spend 20% of your time on is a bit naive. Maybe you're a level 9000 stoic, but for the rest of us, I think it's fine and normal to be emotionally invested in our work, it allows for genuine motivation, team spirit and yes disappointments, but what the hell are you living for? You rather be a robot for 8 hours every day? I'd rather be sad every once in a while but be myself at work and care about it and the people in there with me.
random5634 6y ago
I'm in the have high job demands and high job control situation, it's still totally miserable. Good article.
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shimonabi 6y ago
Ezra Klein had an interesting podcast recently with Robert Sapolsky on how constant stress damages your health: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-ezra-klein-show/episode/robert-sapolsky-on-the-toxic-intersection-of-poverty-and-stress-58359498 https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-ezra-klein-show/episode/ro...
honkycat 6y ago
Most of the time I've seen it, it is avoidance of the rest of their life. "Change diapers? Oh, sorry honey, I uhh... gotta do this thing at work. Darn it!" One phenomenon I've always noticed about workaholics is that they THINK they are being more productive, but often times they are just spending more time spinning their wheels. Also the effect it has on their mood/interpersonal skills, and the pressure it puts on the rest of the team cancels it out. Seriously, one rude comment in the morning can throw a developer off for the rest of the day, it's not worth it. "Man what's up with frank today?" "Oh he was pulling an all-nighter doing a non-urgent task." "Did anybody ask him to?" "No. In fact we asked him to stop." I consider independent study, side-projects, reading a good book, smoking some dope, cooking a good meal with my partner, getting enough sleep, relaxing, and exercising(!!!!) part of my job. I don't care what kind of mutant you THINK you are, you will perform better if you go to bed and get a full nights rest and clean your brain out. It is just science. Finally, while it is true that "work more = better review at work", it's just... not worth it. If your job is your whole life and you are not making +200k: GET A LIFE. You have better things to do with your time than make some other man money. Work is a "safe place." Time goes in, money comes out. But that doesn't mean it is a healthy way to spend all of your time.
- aerosmile 6y ago
  I found it interesting that you put a price tag on it. Also, $200k is about $150k more than most people make, but if you look at just the workaholic population and isolate for industries such as finance and law, many people in that group are going to be within the shooting range of that threshold. And there you have it - even within your own framework, it becomes understandable why we have so many workaholics. My point is - the moment you put a price tag on your work-life balance, it becomes very difficult to escape the rat race. You really have to be quite militant about it or otherwise it won't work.
  - mrkstu 6y ago
    The difference is if you can get enough distance between your expenses and your income, you can completely escape the rat race in a significantly earlier timeframe. For many outside of the ultra high cost of living zones, 200k is about that cut off level where you can reach escape velocity.
hehehaha 6y ago
Working yourself to death is a real thing. And often times, people are forced into these tracks due to competition and pressure. At some point I came to a conclusion that competition does not bring out the best in people and I refuse to work in a contrived environment where such behaviors are encouraged.
cryptica 6y ago
If you're a workaholic but your job is less than useless to the point that society would be better off if you didn't work, of course that will lead to mental health problems... That said, the fact that someone would be willing to do overtime to harm society is probably a sign of mental problems to begin with... There is nothing more ridiculous than the idea of harming society though charity work and yet many people are doing it these days.
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aiava 6y ago
Who knew?
jostmey 6y ago
I get that Workaholism is a form of escapism for many people, but that's not necessarily the case for everyone. I personally become depressed if I cannot work on something important and potentially valuable, feeling that the days pass without meaning. I spend lots of time with my kid because I see that as important. I set aside time to get enough sleep so that I can remain productive. But I hate weekends (unless at the park with my kid), I hate shopping, and I hate vacations. I think I avoid burnout because I don't waste time on meaningless tasks. Life is too short, and I want to accomplish a lot
- duggable 6y ago
  Man, this is me as well. I DREAD the weekends cause I don't know what to do with myself. I sit around feeling anxious and half-depressed, and my mind runs in circles. I'm typically excited for Monday so I can get back to work and distract myself from whatever is going on inside my head.
  - fistfucker3000 6y ago
    Why not work on something else that makes you happy? Pick up a new skill to exercise a different part of your body or brain? Take time to take care of yourself, cook a nice meal, meditate, call your parents. Build relationships, repair old ones you may have neglected. Very few people wish that they worked more when they get older.
- tolbish 6y ago
  Wouldn't the need to feel productive in order to avoid meaninglessness/depression be considered escapism?
  - fairity 6y ago
    Sure, OC's situation could be categorized as escapism, technically, but it doesn't sound like the unhealthy kind. Escapism is only unhealthy if you're participating in the activity at the detriment of your long term fulfillment. Similarly, addiction is generally bad, but if your addiction isn't detrimental to your long-term health, there's no problem.
ojnabieoot 6y ago
The most important point from the study: > We found that job demands could be the most important factor that can develop work addiction risk. So this factor should be controlled or should be investigated by the organization's manager, for example, HR staff, psychologists. My last job could be described as “workaholism” but what was really going on was 1) my manager had a toxic relationship with their manager and were unfairly overworked 2) they passed this attitude on to their subordinates 3) the really ugly part: although my manager had high expectations, they were not very good about actual enforcement, so work from “underperforming” (< 45 hr/week) teammates was dumped onto “adequate” (> 60 hrs) employees, without any planning or accountability - or, crucially, any flexibility. I had never had a boss who took less responsibility for their worker’s projects. Speaking for myself: I have a serious mental illness and not a lot of economic stability. So although I am a decent programmer (when I am well) I am very susceptible to stress-related illnesses. In November and December I ended up losing about 20% of my body weight, entirely due to work stress, and had to resign. I really tried my best to get my boss to listen and didn’t have the heart or strength to drag them into HR :( Just an ugly situation when managers don’t take responsibility for the health of their employees. Especially when the issue is their own stress and inexperience versus greed.
phanindra_veera 6y ago
I wish I knew this 3 years ago. Anyway things are good now.
TrackerFF 6y ago
One thing I've seen, time and time again, is that workaholics tie their identity to their employment. Everything revolves around work, and they pretty much become their work. Work is the place where they live. Co-workers, clients, associates, and what not are the majority of people they interact with. Work is what occupies their mind. When they then lose that - either through retirement, unemployment, or what not, it turns ugly. Especially if they're also the sole provider (in their household.). My only tips are to create rules for yourself, and try to follow them - as well as finding one or more hobbies. The more passionate you become with some hobbies, the less you only think about work.
rimiform 6y ago
It would be interesting to see the literature evolve beyond the current (simplistic) model of workaholism. The current paper isn't super clear on what their working definition is (to me), but seems to be "a compulsion or an uncontrollable need to work incessantly". How does that relate to actual work demands? The paper says that the effort put in must beyond what is "necessary", but this is pretty vague, and would seem off in different contexts. Am I a studyholic if I study for an A instead of a simply 'sufficient' C? Should we call parents who stay up helping their kids finish a school project due tomorrow parentaholics? What is the 'correct' amount of effort to be expended so that the scientific literature won't label you as having a mental health problem? Aside from that, can this even be extricated from simple enjoyment of work? One cited paper says: > Cantarow (1979) suggests that workaholics are those who seek passionate involvement and gratification from working. Finally, it has been observed that hard-workers often use the word ‘fun’ to describe their work experiences (Kiechel, 1989; Machlowitz, 1980). Thus, it seems that workaholics typically find working pleasurable. The horror! From that same cited paper: > Therefore, in this paper, workaholics are defined as those who enjoy the act of working, who are obsessed with working, and who devote long hours and personal time to work. In short, workaholics are those whose emotions, thoughts, and behaviors are strongly dominated by their work. If I actually enjoy my job, of course I'm going to spend more time on it! And if I don't like to exercise, or play parent, or if I only eat what I need to keep me alive, that's going to look like workaholism, even though it's just someone doing what they enjoy as much as they can. That's going to lead to neglect of other things, because there are only so many hours in a day. That's an important part of the definition, by the way, neglecting "other parts of life" is seen as a central component of workaholism, but this obviously applies to every activity, be it studying, exercising, parenting, whatever. Are we supposed to think up a portmanteau for each of these to signify individuals who 'overindulge' by our judgment?
nomy99 6y ago
I literally worked till I dropped during the holidays. I was committing code, got up to stretch, hit my head on furniture and passed out lol. I don't think I am workaholic. This happened because the project was mismanaged and failure to delivery would cost the company a large sum of money (due to contract negotiations with vendors etc)
tinyhouse 6y ago
It's simple: Work to live. Don't live to work. Yeah, I'm talking to you Americans*. * Mostly joking. Workaholism exists everywhere. It's a reference to Emily in Paris.
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago
  Lower social safety or unionization probably makes it a little harder for Americans.
philmcp 6y ago
In years to come we will look down on the 5 day working week in the same way we currently do with 15hr factory shifts during the industrial revolution. It absolutely blows my mind that 99% of office roles are still 5 days / week, Monday to Friday - why is there basically no variation on this model? I'd be more than happy to work a job for 80% salary for 4 days per week... So much so, I'm about to launch a website listing remote software jobs with a 4 day work week: https://www.28hrworkweek.com/ https://www.28hrworkweek.com/
- lrossi 6y ago
  Interesting. How long until you launch?
  - philmcp 6y ago
    Hopefully next week, will email everyone on the list and post it on HN when it's live
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
      I look forward to it!
    - lrossi 6y ago
      Bookmarked!
Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
I nearly ended up becoming a quadriplegic[1] after ignoring my health issues(I literally didn't know I had a fracture in my neck) while running a startup for ~5 years as a single founder. I had to close my startup because of it. So I would certainly say it was not worth it, now even my compute time is limited, I had to even change my programming language of choice(Java to Go) to reduce the time before computer before my biological alarm(pain) goes off. Please do what ever it takes to maintain a healthy work-life balance. Especially the single founders out there, the bus factor is more real than the perceived light at the end of the tunnel. Also workaholics, get a damn big heath insurance coverage, largest coverage you can afford. [1]https://abishekmuthian.com/i-was-told-i-would-become-quadriplegic-68c0371e6f05/ https://abishekmuthian.com/i-was-told-i-would-become-quadrip...
may4m 6y ago
I classify workaholics into three categories, first is too much pride, second is "my colleagues are my friends" and there isn't much to do at home anyways, third is someone really needs the job and money
zaczekadam 6y ago
For me it was the combination of two factors: - my girlfriend leaving me - starting a company with my friends This led to a massive addition to work. While I don't regret starting a company at all, my sleep quality definitely suffered.
ggm 6y ago
We're stuck on the hourly rate. The idea of saying "work only 3 or 4 days a week" invites the immediate fear "but how will I survive on less pay" Try on for size: "work only 4 days. we're not cutting your pay"
bsharitt 6y ago
I can sort of understand people who own their own businesses or otherwise have jobs where the amount they put in is directly related to how much they get back putting in tons of hours and basically centering their life around their work, but I can't quite figure out regular salaried employee workaholics.
nprateem 6y ago
*aholisms are normally so good for your health. Who knew?!
dathinab 6y ago
Also in my experience: Workaholism is also not seldomly caused by mental (and sometimes physical) health problem where the affected person tries to escape reality (their past, their mind, their life etc.).
throw_away34892 6y ago
Anyone whos at a FAANG (or similarly paying company) willing to share some insights into what the work culture is? I'd guess that its mostly dependent upon the team, manager, and project. But as my career progresses and I realize I dont want to be doing this shit well into my 50's or hell..60's I figure I can bite the bullet early at a FAANG and stack so much money by the time im 40 I can tell anyone and their mother to go fuck themselves. With the amount they're paying the EV seems way better than trying at a few startups.
- allenu 6y ago
  I would say from my experience, having worked at a FAANG-like big software company for a long time, it's very easy to work longer hours because of the culture. You see people responding to emails after hours and during weekends, you see people going the extra mile to meet a deadline, the promotion process is regularly pushed and you're always trying to do more to move onto the next stage, etc. It's all part of the corporate culture, so you don't even think of it as "workaholism", it's just normal. You live in a bubble and many of your friends work at the same company, so you can't even see a different perspective. That said, it can be very lucrative over several years since they pay so well. I've since left the company, but have a good nest egg from my work there.
CalRobert 6y ago
How much of workaholism is fear-driven? Since I got my house paid off it's been remarkably easy not to stress about trying to look busier than my peers.
d33lio 6y ago
I'd regret not trying with every bit of my intellect and ability more than burning out in the process of trying. Up until my mid twenties I realized I'd been "protecting myself" and in effect making myself miserable because I kept telling myself that my goals would just lead to burn out and wouldn't be worth it.
sli 6y ago
My father worked his whole life and only retired when he started having seizures. It got him and my mother their current homer, but it sacrificed his physical health and basically any relationship he may have had with his family, because he was either working (usually 12 hour days) or sleeping. I really hope it was worth it for him, because I could never do that to myself. Giving up that much of yourself and your life for people you'll never meet and don't care a single bit about you seems like something meant for fools.
- angrais 6y ago
  Likely your dad did it for himself, you, your mother, and your siblings , rather than a corporation.
billwear 6y ago
okay, can see that; what if your job is enjoyable like play, and you get lost doing it, and thus don't have mental and physical effects?
SNosTrAnDbLe 6y ago
This paper has some red flags and it would be great if someone who has experience with this domain provides more light. 1) The original paper is at https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/20/7594 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/20/7594 2) The paper was written based on the findings of the software https://wittyfit.com/ https://wittyfit.com/ The sample is not random in any sense as it looks like its based on 187 people who are using this software. Correlation != Causation.
mancerayder 6y ago
I've been in situations where I was under a lot of stress and had trouble concentrating and being effective at work. Especially learning. I'm very jealous of those who are not less, but more performant under those conditions.
legerdemain 6y ago
I used to work at a place where "going above and beyond" was celebrated. Our products were deployed on premises. The support model was that the on-site team would exhaust their ability to troubleshoot and then send you a P0 email or Slack message, and then it was you against the machine, at any and all hours, until the problem was solved. On Mondays before lunch we'd all pile into the open space to clap as the product lead delivered kudos like, "Oh, and thanks to Will for helping Deployment Foo fix their database corruption on Mother's Day!" But now I'm not there anymore and their stock is making me money. Grind, little drones, grind, grind!
poxwole 6y ago
In other news, water is wet.
5tefan 6y ago
I can witness workaholism around me. In most cases an absolute waste of life time and that makes it even worse to me. Oftentimes low impact and low priority work. It doesn't makes sense to me. Often tried to reach out to my colleagues but they can't let go. Even time spent with doing nothing at all seems time spent better. I decide in the morning when to quit work in the afternoon. I am forced to manage my workload properly. And I adhere to the KISS principle at all times. I dislike mental overhead. Not everything works well but it is what it is and next day brings other opportunities.
dunemaster 6y ago
As a freelance concept artist and illustrator I pull regular all nighters but when I’m into the zone drawing worlds and characters from pure imagination, I lose track of time and space. After some time of not sleeping it feels like my head is floating mid air, I don’t know which day of the week it is and the last time I looked out the window the sun was going up, now it’s early morning again. It doesn’t interfere with my life because art completes and lifts me into a higher state of consciousness. It’s rare and remarkable
- yobert 6y ago
  Programming does this for me too. I think it's as important to make space for this in your life, as it is to make space for other things too. I believe doing work at that level of immersion is actually hugely beneficial to your life and mental health. There was just an article on HN the other day about a 104 year old submitting his PHD thesis. Super cool!
huijzer 6y ago
The title is very misleading because it states a causation whereas the article talks about “links” and “associations”. This is a serious error since correlation is not causation.
f430 6y ago
“You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis. You are all singing, all dancing crap of the world.” Stop judging yourself, others instead judge the action, and you shall be free from the hypnosis that many never wake from.
giantg2 6y ago
I vaguely remember a study from the UK dealing with depression and it's causes. I think it had said that there was a higher percentage of participants who were depressed because they were fired from their jobs than there were from their spouse leaving them. I remembered that seemed pretty interesting at the time. Now I feel like it kinda makes sense (you lost your source of money vs an unhappy marriage ending).
amelius 6y ago
Do workaholics earn more, on average? Or is money something they generally don't care as much about as the actual work?
nbs_tar 6y ago
CONDUCTED IN FRANCE?!
malaysanghi 6y ago
I was a young grad student more than a decade ago. When preparing for interviews, a common question we prepared for was : "What are your weaknesses" I saw a lot of people confidently saying, "My only weakness is that I'm a workaholic". This was supposed to be a strength hidden as a weakness. Employers preferred new hires who were willing to devote themselves to work and had decided they were workaholic without having a single day of work experience. "Workaholism is a trait" was drilled into us.

445 points by rustoo 6y ago

I would posit that deeper psychological issues are what lead someone to workaholism (as a maladaptive coping mechanism). I believe it is a symptom of a larger issue which is what ultimately leads to the problems with mental and physical health.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
Sometimes lack of social contact or purpose in life, abuse, loneliness and depression can lead to workaholism, sometimes it's having drunk the cool-aid and chasing the carrot on the stick, or even more common, it's simply lacking better employment options in your area leading you to cave in to soft pressure from your employer which then leads to burn-out/depression.
astura 6y ago
Yeah, I know someone whose workaholism is caused by abuse experienced during childhood. It's so obvious to me.
- whalesalad 6y ago
  It is unfortunately extremely common.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
It's always a chicken vs the egg scenario. While the initial steps into workaholism may be from other issues, eventually it can become the cause of many others.
exclusiv 6y ago
That makes more sense to me than the other way around. As a workaholic, and learnaholic, I did it as a path to financial freedom and to accelerate my learning at at time I knew I had the bandwidth and will. It made me a better entrepreneur and business owner later, which is what I really wanted to do. But as I've gotten older and have a family now I've been removing obligations for my businesses. And working more normal schedules. Taking random times off to help. Being better at triaging what's really needed from my time. Yet, I wouldn't have change a thing with my path. It's hard to get to financial freedom and the goal of owning your own businesses with 40 hrs a week. I don't think working more than the normal is necessarily a bad thing. Some people actually do enjoy their jobs. Or their team. Or they enjoy learning. I know it's hard for some people to understand why some people are workaholics. I certainly have friends that don't like their jobs that have said I work too much. If you hate your 40 hour job, it's hard to imagine doing any more than that. In the right environment, the 7+ hours per week extra to be considered a workaholic isn't much different from reading books or practicing your craft in your free time.
- whalesalad 6y ago
  One man's crippling workaholism is another man's dream life. To one it could be an escape or avoidance of their true self and to another it could be the most rewarding work of all. That is to say, I do not think immersing yourself in your work and working crazy long hours is inherently a bad thing. You can certainly thrive on that energy with the right balance.
- Dudeman112 6y ago
  Except most people don't already spend 40h per week reading books or practicing their crafts. If they spent 47h per week doing it, people would call it unhealthy too. (or dedicated, if they have no sense of healthy temperance at all)
  - exclusiv 6y ago
    > Except most people don't already spend 40h per week reading books or practicing their crafts. If someone does the average only (40 hrs) and does 7 hours of personal learning on their craft in their spare time - nobody would consider them a workaholic. That's what I'm trying to say. I work more than the average just like many on this board. Well guess what? I'm more skilled than the average. And I have a wider range of skills than most (from software engineering to marketing). I didn't get there by clocking 40 at each role or at my own businesses. And I probably wouldn't have been able to build successful businesses without going deep into learning for years ahead of time. To many - the extra work hours are a focus on their craft and learning. I'll add marketing tech skills. Or customer acquisition skills. Or finance. If I was reading marketing books for 7 hours per week that wouldn't be equated with working. That would be called learning. And to many people - that's a huge part of their life. Just because my hobby or thirst of information may include "work", doesn't mean people with knitting hobbies after they clock out 40 have a better work/life balance. To me - some of my work is a hobby because I find it fascinating and I'll explore different industries much like someone may explore different cuisines in their home chef hobby. Also - I still have more regular hobbies than most people I know, because apart from some Hacker News time, I don't spend 2-3 hours daily on social media like most people. I don't get the work/life movement (apart from employer abuse of some employees). Do you truly enjoy your life or not? Life balance is more appropriate to consider.

bondarchuk 6y ago

Typical case of inverting cause and effect.

sn41 6y ago
Or an incidence of correlation and not causation. Not that correlation does not mater.

ystad 6y ago

Difficult to disagree, especially when you are working on a job that is not satisying intellectually and emotionally. All the money in the world doesn't help

brundolf 6y ago

> There are potential reasons for that: financial problems, ... Does it really count as an addiction if you're doing it because of genuine financial problems? I always thought of proper workaholism as an unhealthy addiction to the dopamine rush you get when you're successful at your job. I've experienced a mild version of this in the past when I didn't have enough else that was fulfilling me in my life; like many addictions, it was a crutch against depression.

markus_zhang 6y ago

I believe workaholists do not neccesarily love their job, but hate something else so much that they would rather find some place to take a bit of rest. I think I'm developing into one...

hanniabu 6y ago
I'm one and personally I have a lot of pride in my work, no matter what I'm doing, so it takes me longer to do things than someone else that just scraps things together. This leads to me spending way more time on work.
- tenebrisalietum 6y ago
  Overfocus on details or over-perfection could be a symptom of anxiety.
  - hanniabu 6y ago
    Pretty sure anxiety is a symptom of the perfectionism, not the cause
    - jolmg 6y ago
      I think it could go either way. That makes it viable for a vicious cycle.
mindracer 6y ago
A manager of mine used to do 12-14 hour day Monday-Friday and sometimes go to the office to work over the weekend as well. Him and his girlfriend weren’t getting on at the time and he’d rather be working than in the house with her
- markus_zhang 6y ago
  Yeah definitely. Sometimes you can't simply cut something away so you have to try to stay away from it as long as possible. I think the situation would improve if they just separate.

throwaway91627 6y ago

Learned this the hard way. Spent the last 7 years grinding text books resulting in a place on a Masters in CS and a ~$200k income while working remotely from the UK (without a degree, at 26). Whole purpose was to earn as much as I could and it took over my life. Now I’m on antidepressants and overweight. Recently quit my uni course and job, and settled for a role around $65k with a New Years resolution to never be a workaholic again. Feeling better already :)

qmmmur 6y ago
What did you work in if you don't mind me asking?
- throwaway91627 6y ago
  Was a software developer but realised it’s much easier to be competitive, if you’re a good but not great dev, to get higher paying SDET roles.
  - randomopining 6y ago
    Don’t they get paid much less? Let’s say you’re a 7/10 dev, wouldn’t you get paid more as a dev?
    - throwaway91627 6y ago
      Honestly, no. I found salaries were similar for the same level of role (maybe a little more in dev) but I was able to get much more senior SDET roles which counteracted this. Instead of being a mid-level dev, I was a senior/lead SDET approaching staff level. Edit: When I made the shift initially from dev to SDET, I had a 50% pay rise. In London I regularly get approached for £85k/$100k roles as an SDET. True devs might earn more than that at the same companies but it’s already much higher than most devs earn in the UK, and I’m not experienced enough to compete for the dev counterpart roles.
supernihil 6y ago

dfee 6y ago

Because none of the comments (yet) reflect the content of the article, here is a useful excerpt that should help refocus us: > The results show that high job demands at work are strongly associated with work addiction risk but the job control level does not play the same role. The prevalence of work addiction risk is higher for active and high-strain workers than for passive and low-strain workers. These two groups of workers appeared to be more vulnerable and therefore can suffer more from the negative outcomes of work addiction risk, in terms of depression, sleep disorder, stress and other health issues. For a definition of the four types of working situations, they’re in the article and marked with battery icons.

haram_masala 6y ago

I honestly think my mental and physical health are so much better than they should be at my age because I don't take work as seriously as my colleagues. Though, I'm fairly certain I've missed out on a few promotions.

pbrb 6y ago
I'm with you this. I still do work very hard and definitely too much, but I made a decision in my mid 20s to never let work stress actually affect me. Or, at least try not to. I think it actually helped me get promoted when working at startups, but now that I'm working at an 'elite' company, I've definitely missed out on promotions. I'm just not willing to work 14 hr days, every day, to hit arbitrary dates on a calendar.

wincy 6y ago

After our second daughter was born with a disability and we didn’t know if she’d make it to her first birthday I threw myself into my new job utterly. I was working 7-7 almost every day, took every opportunity to travel, and in general was absent from the situation as much as my “very important job” would allow. For me I felt completely powerless at the hospital. At work I got to solve “important” problems that were trivial in comparison to the things I had no control over, and was rewarded for doing so. It felt good to be useful when my life felt in complete chaos outside of work. At one point I stayed up all night to wrap up a project that wasn’t even that important. My boss, rather than being happy with me, sat me down and said I needed to make sure to sleep and take care of myself, that I was going to burn myself out. I really appreciate him saying that in retrospect, even though I felt a little offended at the time. I try to balance work and home life, and have developed a great relationship with my daughter, now two. In retrospect I wish I’d had the emotional stability to spend more time at the hospital, and to provide more emotional support for my wife who was saddled with going to the hospital almost every day. Things are better now, our daughter is doing very well, but the workaholism can be because of external factors, as overworking made me able to ignore the other, more depressing parts of my life where I lacked control.

vmception 6y ago
I was most focused on my career after a breakup. The structure of the work environment coupled with the reward is pretty unparalleled. Other things I can think of with structure usually have a kind of endless goal that can't be spent at your discretion. Rehab, fitness, organized religion. I've never done rehab, but it seems to overlap with fitness where even if you gamify it with achievements, its not like a game at all because you have to do the same achievement the next day and forever. The earnings, advancement, structure and distraction do have their place especially when your personal relationships and life isn't going the way you want it.
- trianglem 6y ago
  I find all of this so hard to relate with. I’ve worked for a decade, have a high paying job and have been promoted multiple times but to me none of it is enjoyable. I don’t think I could ever be happy in a situation where I’m required to do something for 9 hours everyday. I can’t get around the idea that all of this a weak abstraction to make money and care very little for approval from authority figures.

eloff 6y ago

I think one needs to distinguish between being a workaholic for some corporation and doing it because you're starting a company or working for yourself. The former is obviously going to be painful and the latter might not even feel that much like work. Maybe I'm just justifying because I'm definitely a workaholic, and I'm in the second scenario and it feels totally sustainable. The first scenario I also did, and it was hell, I wouldn't do it again. It was a necessary evil to get the financial security to start my business (self angel funding - no permission required, no strings attached.)

long_warmup 6y ago
I was in the second scenario. It definitely is workaholism, and from my own experience the price check your body, mind and family gives in the end is not worth the financial gain...
Enginerrrd 6y ago
I agree with all of this, though it's possible I'm also just justifying it to myself. I will say though that 8 hours working for someone else felt like a grind... but I can easily do 10-12 if I give myself an interesting project to work on. It feels really meaningful to me...
ivan_ah 6y ago
Yeah working for yourself is a big trap to watch out for. I have fallen for it numerous times. The problem is when you're working for yourself (or a worthy non-commercial cause) work feels more fun and worthwhile, but the health damage is kind of the same (long hours, lack of exercises, sub-optimal nutrition). Despite it "feeling good," working in this over-capacity regime ends up really inefficient (since you're tired and not seeing the big picture). One thing that I find helps is to get other people involved (e.g. collaborators, reviewers, users, etc) then allow yourself to take breaks, while still knowing work on the project is continuing by others.
- eloff 6y ago
  I take care to eat well and exercise 4-5 times a week. I think that's critical. I also don't do any hobbies and only see friends a few times a year - all my free time goes to my wife, which is how I manage 60 hour weeks while being married.

dfilppi 6y ago

Are we expected to believe that there are workaholics in France? Now 'strikaholics' I can believe.

dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar. Last thing we need here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

NalNezumi 6y ago

>"Workaholics are people who usually work seven and more hours more than others per week." >"Workaholism is also known as a behavioural disorder, which means the excessive involvement of the individual in work when an employer doesn’t require or expect it." >"The results show that high job demands at work are strongly associated with work addiction risk but the job control level does not play the same role." In a first glance, the definition of Workaholism seems like something very culture/country dependent. In places such as Japan with pressure to stay longer than your boss, working longer to "show you're working hard", a lot of people might be categorized as workaholic without actually being one. What the model seems to not include is, and I think contributes way more to work related mental health issue is emotional investment in work. Too much emotional investment seems to lead to unreasonable stress when things are not going accordingly, while not helping much when things are going well. (Which is natural ofc, emotionally we remember negative events/failure more. It being tied to our self-worth or something deeply emotional, is problematic though.) I left my previous company because of this reason; the project wasn't going anywhere, horribly mismanaged including unrealistic goal settings. But I've had this condition before on other jobs, but only on this one did I get so emotionally invested that I spent ridiculous over-time until burnout trying to make things (out of my control) work. In retrospective, what made it all worse was that I liked my coworker a lot at my previous work, and seeing them work hard on other project while my project were going nowhere, made me more invested. The company-culture that made reaching out to others for feedback/brain storm/help hard, was also strong contributing factor.

rimiform 6y ago
You're absolutely bang-on with the cultural dependence thing. Here, in Europe (although this seems to be changing), it's normal to work fewer hours than would be customary in North America. So, your threshold for 'workaholism' would be lower. I'm not sure if this is a Western thing or whatever it might be, but for some reason a lot of social science researchers neglect to mention that their research is done on a specific cultural group. You could say "... in the US" for this title, but I rarely see this done.
vasco 6y ago
To think that you can somehow not be emotionally invested in the thing you spend 20% of your time on is a bit naive. Maybe you're a level 9000 stoic, but for the rest of us, I think it's fine and normal to be emotionally invested in our work, it allows for genuine motivation, team spirit and yes disappointments, but what the hell are you living for? You rather be a robot for 8 hours every day? I'd rather be sad every once in a while but be myself at work and care about it and the people in there with me.

random5634 6y ago

I'm in the have high job demands and high job control situation, it's still totally miserable. Good article.

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shimonabi 6y ago

Ezra Klein had an interesting podcast recently with Robert Sapolsky on how constant stress damages your health: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-ezra-klein-show/episode/robert-sapolsky-on-the-toxic-intersection-of-poverty-and-stress-58359498 https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-ezra-klein-show/episode/ro...

honkycat 6y ago

Most of the time I've seen it, it is avoidance of the rest of their life. "Change diapers? Oh, sorry honey, I uhh... gotta do this thing at work. Darn it!" One phenomenon I've always noticed about workaholics is that they THINK they are being more productive, but often times they are just spending more time spinning their wheels. Also the effect it has on their mood/interpersonal skills, and the pressure it puts on the rest of the team cancels it out. Seriously, one rude comment in the morning can throw a developer off for the rest of the day, it's not worth it. "Man what's up with frank today?" "Oh he was pulling an all-nighter doing a non-urgent task." "Did anybody ask him to?" "No. In fact we asked him to stop." I consider independent study, side-projects, reading a good book, smoking some dope, cooking a good meal with my partner, getting enough sleep, relaxing, and exercising(!!!!) part of my job. I don't care what kind of mutant you THINK you are, you will perform better if you go to bed and get a full nights rest and clean your brain out. It is just science. Finally, while it is true that "work more = better review at work", it's just... not worth it. If your job is your whole life and you are not making +200k: GET A LIFE. You have better things to do with your time than make some other man money. Work is a "safe place." Time goes in, money comes out. But that doesn't mean it is a healthy way to spend all of your time.

aerosmile 6y ago
I found it interesting that you put a price tag on it. Also, $200k is about $150k more than most people make, but if you look at just the workaholic population and isolate for industries such as finance and law, many people in that group are going to be within the shooting range of that threshold. And there you have it - even within your own framework, it becomes understandable why we have so many workaholics. My point is - the moment you put a price tag on your work-life balance, it becomes very difficult to escape the rat race. You really have to be quite militant about it or otherwise it won't work.
- mrkstu 6y ago
  The difference is if you can get enough distance between your expenses and your income, you can completely escape the rat race in a significantly earlier timeframe. For many outside of the ultra high cost of living zones, 200k is about that cut off level where you can reach escape velocity.

hehehaha 6y ago

Working yourself to death is a real thing. And often times, people are forced into these tracks due to competition and pressure. At some point I came to a conclusion that competition does not bring out the best in people and I refuse to work in a contrived environment where such behaviors are encouraged.

cryptica 6y ago

If you're a workaholic but your job is less than useless to the point that society would be better off if you didn't work, of course that will lead to mental health problems... That said, the fact that someone would be willing to do overtime to harm society is probably a sign of mental problems to begin with... There is nothing more ridiculous than the idea of harming society though charity work and yet many people are doing it these days.

deleted 6y ago

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aiava 6y ago

Who knew?

jostmey 6y ago

I get that Workaholism is a form of escapism for many people, but that's not necessarily the case for everyone. I personally become depressed if I cannot work on something important and potentially valuable, feeling that the days pass without meaning. I spend lots of time with my kid because I see that as important. I set aside time to get enough sleep so that I can remain productive. But I hate weekends (unless at the park with my kid), I hate shopping, and I hate vacations. I think I avoid burnout because I don't waste time on meaningless tasks. Life is too short, and I want to accomplish a lot

duggable 6y ago
Man, this is me as well. I DREAD the weekends cause I don't know what to do with myself. I sit around feeling anxious and half-depressed, and my mind runs in circles. I'm typically excited for Monday so I can get back to work and distract myself from whatever is going on inside my head.
- fistfucker3000 6y ago
  Why not work on something else that makes you happy? Pick up a new skill to exercise a different part of your body or brain? Take time to take care of yourself, cook a nice meal, meditate, call your parents. Build relationships, repair old ones you may have neglected. Very few people wish that they worked more when they get older.
tolbish 6y ago
Wouldn't the need to feel productive in order to avoid meaninglessness/depression be considered escapism?
- fairity 6y ago
  Sure, OC's situation could be categorized as escapism, technically, but it doesn't sound like the unhealthy kind. Escapism is only unhealthy if you're participating in the activity at the detriment of your long term fulfillment. Similarly, addiction is generally bad, but if your addiction isn't detrimental to your long-term health, there's no problem.

ojnabieoot 6y ago

The most important point from the study: > We found that job demands could be the most important factor that can develop work addiction risk. So this factor should be controlled or should be investigated by the organization's manager, for example, HR staff, psychologists. My last job could be described as “workaholism” but what was really going on was 1) my manager had a toxic relationship with their manager and were unfairly overworked 2) they passed this attitude on to their subordinates 3) the really ugly part: although my manager had high expectations, they were not very good about actual enforcement, so work from “underperforming” (< 45 hr/week) teammates was dumped onto “adequate” (> 60 hrs) employees, without any planning or accountability - or, crucially, any flexibility. I had never had a boss who took less responsibility for their worker’s projects. Speaking for myself: I have a serious mental illness and not a lot of economic stability. So although I am a decent programmer (when I am well) I am very susceptible to stress-related illnesses. In November and December I ended up losing about 20% of my body weight, entirely due to work stress, and had to resign. I really tried my best to get my boss to listen and didn’t have the heart or strength to drag them into HR :( Just an ugly situation when managers don’t take responsibility for the health of their employees. Especially when the issue is their own stress and inexperience versus greed.

phanindra_veera 6y ago

I wish I knew this 3 years ago. Anyway things are good now.

TrackerFF 6y ago

One thing I've seen, time and time again, is that workaholics tie their identity to their employment. Everything revolves around work, and they pretty much become their work. Work is the place where they live. Co-workers, clients, associates, and what not are the majority of people they interact with. Work is what occupies their mind. When they then lose that - either through retirement, unemployment, or what not, it turns ugly. Especially if they're also the sole provider (in their household.). My only tips are to create rules for yourself, and try to follow them - as well as finding one or more hobbies. The more passionate you become with some hobbies, the less you only think about work.

rimiform 6y ago

It would be interesting to see the literature evolve beyond the current (simplistic) model of workaholism. The current paper isn't super clear on what their working definition is (to me), but seems to be "a compulsion or an uncontrollable need to work incessantly". How does that relate to actual work demands? The paper says that the effort put in must beyond what is "necessary", but this is pretty vague, and would seem off in different contexts. Am I a studyholic if I study for an A instead of a simply 'sufficient' C? Should we call parents who stay up helping their kids finish a school project due tomorrow parentaholics? What is the 'correct' amount of effort to be expended so that the scientific literature won't label you as having a mental health problem? Aside from that, can this even be extricated from simple enjoyment of work? One cited paper says: > Cantarow (1979) suggests that workaholics are those who seek passionate involvement and gratification from working. Finally, it has been observed that hard-workers often use the word ‘fun’ to describe their work experiences (Kiechel, 1989; Machlowitz, 1980). Thus, it seems that workaholics typically find working pleasurable. The horror! From that same cited paper: > Therefore, in this paper, workaholics are defined as those who enjoy the act of working, who are obsessed with working, and who devote long hours and personal time to work. In short, workaholics are those whose emotions, thoughts, and behaviors are strongly dominated by their work. If I actually enjoy my job, of course I'm going to spend more time on it! And if I don't like to exercise, or play parent, or if I only eat what I need to keep me alive, that's going to look like workaholism, even though it's just someone doing what they enjoy as much as they can. That's going to lead to neglect of other things, because there are only so many hours in a day. That's an important part of the definition, by the way, neglecting "other parts of life" is seen as a central component of workaholism, but this obviously applies to every activity, be it studying, exercising, parenting, whatever. Are we supposed to think up a portmanteau for each of these to signify individuals who 'overindulge' by our judgment?

nomy99 6y ago

I literally worked till I dropped during the holidays. I was committing code, got up to stretch, hit my head on furniture and passed out lol. I don't think I am workaholic. This happened because the project was mismanaged and failure to delivery would cost the company a large sum of money (due to contract negotiations with vendors etc)

tinyhouse 6y ago

It's simple: Work to live. Don't live to work. Yeah, I'm talking to you Americans*. * Mostly joking. Workaholism exists everywhere. It's a reference to Emily in Paris.

shrimp_emoji 6y ago
Lower social safety or unionization probably makes it a little harder for Americans.

philmcp 6y ago

In years to come we will look down on the 5 day working week in the same way we currently do with 15hr factory shifts during the industrial revolution. It absolutely blows my mind that 99% of office roles are still 5 days / week, Monday to Friday - why is there basically no variation on this model? I'd be more than happy to work a job for 80% salary for 4 days per week... So much so, I'm about to launch a website listing remote software jobs with a 4 day work week: https://www.28hrworkweek.com/ https://www.28hrworkweek.com/

lrossi 6y ago
Interesting. How long until you launch?
- philmcp 6y ago
  Hopefully next week, will email everyone on the list and post it on HN when it's live
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
    I look forward to it!
  - lrossi 6y ago
    Bookmarked!

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago

I nearly ended up becoming a quadriplegic[1] after ignoring my health issues(I literally didn't know I had a fracture in my neck) while running a startup for ~5 years as a single founder. I had to close my startup because of it. So I would certainly say it was not worth it, now even my compute time is limited, I had to even change my programming language of choice(Java to Go) to reduce the time before computer before my biological alarm(pain) goes off. Please do what ever it takes to maintain a healthy work-life balance. Especially the single founders out there, the bus factor is more real than the perceived light at the end of the tunnel. Also workaholics, get a damn big heath insurance coverage, largest coverage you can afford. [1]https://abishekmuthian.com/i-was-told-i-would-become-quadriplegic-68c0371e6f05/ https://abishekmuthian.com/i-was-told-i-would-become-quadrip...

may4m 6y ago

I classify workaholics into three categories, first is too much pride, second is "my colleagues are my friends" and there isn't much to do at home anyways, third is someone really needs the job and money

zaczekadam 6y ago

For me it was the combination of two factors: - my girlfriend leaving me - starting a company with my friends This led to a massive addition to work. While I don't regret starting a company at all, my sleep quality definitely suffered.

ggm 6y ago

We're stuck on the hourly rate. The idea of saying "work only 3 or 4 days a week" invites the immediate fear "but how will I survive on less pay" Try on for size: "work only 4 days. we're not cutting your pay"

bsharitt 6y ago

I can sort of understand people who own their own businesses or otherwise have jobs where the amount they put in is directly related to how much they get back putting in tons of hours and basically centering their life around their work, but I can't quite figure out regular salaried employee workaholics.

nprateem 6y ago

*aholisms are normally so good for your health. Who knew?!

dathinab 6y ago

Also in my experience: Workaholism is also not seldomly caused by mental (and sometimes physical) health problem where the affected person tries to escape reality (their past, their mind, their life etc.).

throw_away34892 6y ago

Anyone whos at a FAANG (or similarly paying company) willing to share some insights into what the work culture is? I'd guess that its mostly dependent upon the team, manager, and project. But as my career progresses and I realize I dont want to be doing this shit well into my 50's or hell..60's I figure I can bite the bullet early at a FAANG and stack so much money by the time im 40 I can tell anyone and their mother to go fuck themselves. With the amount they're paying the EV seems way better than trying at a few startups.

allenu 6y ago
I would say from my experience, having worked at a FAANG-like big software company for a long time, it's very easy to work longer hours because of the culture. You see people responding to emails after hours and during weekends, you see people going the extra mile to meet a deadline, the promotion process is regularly pushed and you're always trying to do more to move onto the next stage, etc. It's all part of the corporate culture, so you don't even think of it as "workaholism", it's just normal. You live in a bubble and many of your friends work at the same company, so you can't even see a different perspective. That said, it can be very lucrative over several years since they pay so well. I've since left the company, but have a good nest egg from my work there.

CalRobert 6y ago

How much of workaholism is fear-driven? Since I got my house paid off it's been remarkably easy not to stress about trying to look busier than my peers.

d33lio 6y ago

I'd regret not trying with every bit of my intellect and ability more than burning out in the process of trying. Up until my mid twenties I realized I'd been "protecting myself" and in effect making myself miserable because I kept telling myself that my goals would just lead to burn out and wouldn't be worth it.

sli 6y ago

My father worked his whole life and only retired when he started having seizures. It got him and my mother their current homer, but it sacrificed his physical health and basically any relationship he may have had with his family, because he was either working (usually 12 hour days) or sleeping. I really hope it was worth it for him, because I could never do that to myself. Giving up that much of yourself and your life for people you'll never meet and don't care a single bit about you seems like something meant for fools.

angrais 6y ago
Likely your dad did it for himself, you, your mother, and your siblings , rather than a corporation.

billwear 6y ago

okay, can see that; what if your job is enjoyable like play, and you get lost doing it, and thus don't have mental and physical effects?

SNosTrAnDbLe 6y ago

This paper has some red flags and it would be great if someone who has experience with this domain provides more light. 1) The original paper is at https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/20/7594 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/20/7594 2) The paper was written based on the findings of the software https://wittyfit.com/ https://wittyfit.com/ The sample is not random in any sense as it looks like its based on 187 people who are using this software. Correlation != Causation.

mancerayder 6y ago

I've been in situations where I was under a lot of stress and had trouble concentrating and being effective at work. Especially learning. I'm very jealous of those who are not less, but more performant under those conditions.

legerdemain 6y ago

I used to work at a place where "going above and beyond" was celebrated. Our products were deployed on premises. The support model was that the on-site team would exhaust their ability to troubleshoot and then send you a P0 email or Slack message, and then it was you against the machine, at any and all hours, until the problem was solved. On Mondays before lunch we'd all pile into the open space to clap as the product lead delivered kudos like, "Oh, and thanks to Will for helping Deployment Foo fix their database corruption on Mother's Day!" But now I'm not there anymore and their stock is making me money. Grind, little drones, grind, grind!

poxwole 6y ago

In other news, water is wet.

5tefan 6y ago

I can witness workaholism around me. In most cases an absolute waste of life time and that makes it even worse to me. Oftentimes low impact and low priority work. It doesn't makes sense to me. Often tried to reach out to my colleagues but they can't let go. Even time spent with doing nothing at all seems time spent better. I decide in the morning when to quit work in the afternoon. I am forced to manage my workload properly. And I adhere to the KISS principle at all times. I dislike mental overhead. Not everything works well but it is what it is and next day brings other opportunities.

dunemaster 6y ago

As a freelance concept artist and illustrator I pull regular all nighters but when I’m into the zone drawing worlds and characters from pure imagination, I lose track of time and space. After some time of not sleeping it feels like my head is floating mid air, I don’t know which day of the week it is and the last time I looked out the window the sun was going up, now it’s early morning again. It doesn’t interfere with my life because art completes and lifts me into a higher state of consciousness. It’s rare and remarkable

yobert 6y ago
Programming does this for me too. I think it's as important to make space for this in your life, as it is to make space for other things too. I believe doing work at that level of immersion is actually hugely beneficial to your life and mental health. There was just an article on HN the other day about a 104 year old submitting his PHD thesis. Super cool!

huijzer 6y ago

The title is very misleading because it states a causation whereas the article talks about “links” and “associations”. This is a serious error since correlation is not causation.

f430 6y ago

“You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis. You are all singing, all dancing crap of the world.” Stop judging yourself, others instead judge the action, and you shall be free from the hypnosis that many never wake from.

giantg2 6y ago

I vaguely remember a study from the UK dealing with depression and it's causes. I think it had said that there was a higher percentage of participants who were depressed because they were fired from their jobs than there were from their spouse leaving them. I remembered that seemed pretty interesting at the time. Now I feel like it kinda makes sense (you lost your source of money vs an unhappy marriage ending).

amelius 6y ago

Do workaholics earn more, on average? Or is money something they generally don't care as much about as the actual work?

nbs_tar 6y ago

CONDUCTED IN FRANCE?!

malaysanghi 6y ago

I was a young grad student more than a decade ago. When preparing for interviews, a common question we prepared for was : "What are your weaknesses" I saw a lot of people confidently saying, "My only weakness is that I'm a workaholic". This was supposed to be a strength hidden as a weakness. Employers preferred new hires who were willing to devote themselves to work and had decided they were workaholic without having a single day of work experience. "Workaholism is a trait" was drilled into us.