8 ms·

Apple doesn't deserve to have such careful and detail-oriented FOSS developers like Jason, developing for their platform. He is genuinely wasting time in order

by j1elo 6y ago

Apple doesn't deserve to have such careful and detail-oriented FOSS developers like Jason, developing for their platform. He is genuinely wasting time in order to work around Apple's developer-unfriendly platform. Not that I should be telling devs where they should spend their time... but I feel like so much effort is being devoted to fix Apple's issues. > When I'm debugging these issues, I'll often times spend a few hours in IDA Pro (Apple doesn't provide debug symbols, unlike Microsoft, which makes this process even more miserable than it already is), and after identifying the issue I'll often have several ideas for "clever" workarounds. Which of them are acceptable for the App Store? Usually none! Really, why we need to have very talented people spending their time in dealing with this, instead of contributing actual value on other parts of the project? Apple should be losing devs in favor of other better platforms, not the other way around. With less and worse products at their disposal, Apple users would then be well aware that they are choosing a platform that alienates developers.

VonGuard 6y ago
Completely agree. Apple has nothing but contempt for its developers, and treats them like indentured servants. "Oh it took 10 years to get your app working right? Well, it doesn't work right anymore after yesterday's patch."
- uncledave 6y ago
  That could be said for any platform these days. It's certainly not specific to Apple!
  - foepys 6y ago
    Microsoft broke a lot in the past few years when they got rid of their dedicated QA department(s) but they are very keen of fixing backwards compatibility issues. I can still run my desktop application that I compiled in 1998. Try that on a Mac.
    - uncledave 6y ago
      Try running 16-bit visual basic, which I was still writing as late as 2000, on a Ryzen and your analogy falls to bits. I remember the entire win16 to win32 porting effort that had to go in. APIs are never stable forever. Change is the only constant and I've learned to embrace it where possible or suffer later.
      - Joe_Cool 6y ago
        That would actually work fine on Windows 10 32bit. It still has NTVDM and can run 16bit and DOS programs.
  - pimeys 6y ago
    I guess Windows doesn't break their compatibility almost ever. Linux doesn't break user-space, but of course the libraries you depend on might change in a few decades.
    - uncledave 6y ago
      I've actually spent about 25 years writing software on Windows, mostly desktop. Stuff breaks all the time and getting it fixed is nigh on impossible even if you happen to be a partner with contract. What is claimed to be backwards compatibility is only partially true; reality is that bugs and their workarounds will exist forever. As for Linux and breaking userspace, that's the kernel interface which is stable, not the whole distribution. I really wish people would report that honestly. NT's API is stable too. It doesn't mean Gtk and ComCtl32 doesn't have abhorrent stability problems and bugs in them. The issue is, on all platforms, the thousands of libraries each containing hundreds of calls and data structures.
    - rcoveson 6y ago
      There are some old games I can't get to work on Windows 10 which worked fine on Windows XP. Amusingly, what usually ends up working best is wine.
    - gnubison 6y ago
      There's a 2004 article about this by Joel Spolsky that can be found here[0]. Obviously it is a "tad" out of date (and I don't work on Windows so I can't comment on the situation right now), but it seems that at some point Windows cared deeply about backwards-compatibility. [0]: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost-the-api-war/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...
  - ta988 6y ago
    Untrue, Microsoft is much much more open (yes it hurts to say that) in that regard.
  - ajkjk 6y ago
    No, but Apple does it worst, and the fact that other companies do it doesn't excuse them in the the slightest.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    It's completely untrue in my experience working with WWW, GNU, and POSIX. Compared to Android, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, eBay, and many other platforms I've developed for, I feel supported and catered to, and if I have a problem or a question, there is an actual human on the other end to guide me, politely and helpfully. Developing for Windows back in the day, it was about halfway there. I had zero ability to communicate back to the platform owners, but I rarely if ever felt shit on, disrespected or disregarded. In contrast, on Win32, I felt like everything I wanted to do had already been considered ahead of time, thought through, and there was an existing and elegant solution available.
- tw04 6y ago
  Also you're an open source and free project? If you want donations we're going to need a cut of that. Doesn't matter that you're providing our OS with functionality (for free) that we can't or won't create on our own.
  - hetspookjee 6y ago
    Is this true? That can't be legal.
    - tw04 6y ago
      Yes, he says it right in the post. They had a donation link in the about section that Apple forced them to remove because the payments weren't going through the app store payment system where they get a cut.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        It might be worth appealing that rule by claiming that the payment is a donation and optional.
        wayneftw 6y ago
        That would be an instance of very talented developers sinking even more of their time into Apple's despicable platform.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        There's a lot of very undespicable people using the platform, unfortunately…
        wayneftw 6y ago
        I would say not. Supporting a tyrant and a fascist by giving them your money is also despicable. If you buy your stuff used that's fine IMO.
Hamuko 6y ago
I wish Apple would just integrate Wireguard into macOS itself. macOS has a built-in option for VPNs in the network preferences but it's shit like L2TP over IPSec.
- sneak 6y ago
  I don't think Apple cares very much about personal VPNs, only corporate ones. The number of people who gate a mac purchase on the capability to speak WireGuard is tiny. I now only connect my macs and ios devices to the internet via external VPN router/firewalls on which I have root; I can no longer invest the time to hack macOS sufficiently to permit me to ensure that no unauthorized traffic is leaving it. This means none of my iPads or iPhones have SIMs in them any longer, as I take this approach even when mobile (gl.inet makes a travel VPN router with an LTE interface that runs OpenWRT).
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    I would imagine Wireguard usage in corporate networks to increase in the future, so if Apple only cares about corporate VPNs, surely there'd be reason to implement that as well. My guess would rather be that Apple at some point cared about corporate VPNs but no longer do, and that option is mainly just legacy.
    - weitzj 6y ago
      If Wireguard would be certified and you can have a contract with a company to carry the risk of this VPN solution then it will gain traction. I know that technically it is probably superior and safer, but for regulatory things people might still chose Ipsec
  - pietrovismara 6y ago
    > I can no longer invest the time to hack macOS sufficiently to permit me to ensure that no unauthorized traffic is leaving it. > This means none of my iPads or iPhones have SIMs in them any longer If you use Apple products for personal use: you sound like a masochist. If you are forced to use them professionally: I'm sorry for you.
lrvick 6y ago
This is exactly why I won't use or develop for Apple products for any amount of money. I can't justify wasting that much time and stress on a platform that clearly is more concerned with meeting the needs of casual users and media professionals rather than developers or those concerned with freedom, security, or privacy.
- jjcon 6y ago
  > can't justify wasting that much time and stress on a platform that clearly is more concerned with meeting the needs of casual users and media professionals rather than developers It’s because Apple prioritizes users over developers that they have so many users.
  - pimeys 6y ago
    This is kind of weird though, but aren't developers also users? Or are they just small enough fraction of the users? Probably it just seems bigger here in Hacker News where most of Apple users are also developers...
    - smoldesu 6y ago
      Developers make up Apple's largest "pro" market, which is part of what makes their treatment of developers confusing. Especially now that they're transitioning to ARM, using a Mac is just an outright disadvantage to developers today.
tandr 6y ago
> Apple should be losing devs in favor of other better platforms, not the other way around. So far, good hardware, close-to-*ix-OS software, and penetration are kind of make them a hard competitor to beat. What other "better" platforms are you thinking about?
- smoldesu 6y ago
  Ye olde "Thinkpad + Linux" is unironically one of the best options around. I've owned 3 or 4 Thinkpads, and all of them run Linux like they were designed for it. Considering the security issues and hidden analytics in Big Sur, there are plenty of better platforms around. If you're looking to outright replace MacOS, KDE will mostly do the trick. It's super customizable, and contains all of the MacOS idiosyncratic staples (Global menu, dock bar, you get the point). With that, you get perfect Unix compatibility and software freedom, and you're only losing a few proprietary apps in the migration process.
- zamalek 6y ago
  System76 is one: https://system76.com/ https://system76.com/ Edit: and don't forget that ElementaryOS gets you pretty damned close to the Mac UI experience. I personally prefer GNOME, which seemingly steals inspiration from across the industry, so it's different but also really slick (the use of Super/Winkey as both alt-tab and the launcher is genius).
  - Technically 6y ago
    Then you have to deal with a linux UI, which is a complete blocker for me.
  - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
    Hmm...maybe. I know several people who have System76 laptops and none of them would say that they're made well. At best they seem to tolerate poor Clevo-rebrand construction out of a desire to support a libre ecosystem. Complaints like needing to reboot to switch between integrated and discrete graphics, low quality screens, extreme fan noise that then interferes heavily with the microphone, and terribly overpromised battery life are the norm. Has something changed very recently?
Technically 6y ago
Is there a better platform? I don't think so.
api 6y ago
Apple has poorly documented APIs and locked down platforms and app stores. Windows has decades of cruft and the OS itself is basically adware at this point with "recommendations" and shit showing up constantly, un-removable foistware, dark patterns to herd you into MS cloud, and loads of gratuitous telemetry. Windows drivers, driver signing, and installers are all horrors that can reduce one to a gibbering lunatic like the poor souls in Lovecraft's fiction. Networking is horrific too, and NTFS is slow. Linux has fragmentation, fragmentation, fragmentation. There are at least three package formats, two or three inits (though I think we're converging on systemd in spite of its many warts), and loads of gratuitous distributions and sub-distributions and spins of distributions that have no reason to exist except for some minor holy war over some minutia or license holy wars. Oh and the most popular package formats, dpkg and RPM, are arcane nightmares from the pit of hell. Every time I get mad at Apple I try working with another platform and realize Apple is not that bad. They all suck.
- __turbobrew__ 6y ago
  What about BSD? They tend to be less fragmented than Linux. The only showstopper for me with BSD is the lack of docker, but if you are happy not using docker or using jails instead BSD can be a good experience.
  - api 6y ago
    I like it, but the fact is that not many people use it and the ecosystem is small. That makes it hard to convince more people to use it due to difficulty hiring, staffing, getting answers on forums, etc.
pietrovismara 6y ago
I can't believe great, generous people in their best intentions keep developing FOSS for a closed platform like Apple's. Do they want a closed platform? Let's give it to them. Stop developing FOSS for Apple. It's a "market share" I'll happily give up (and I did already).
drummer 6y ago
My dearest Jason, please just stop wasting time on the closed crApple platforms with all the censorship these days. Your talents can be put to better use. If crApple users want to use wireguard, they can switch to linux or windows. In fact, this will benefit all of us.

by j1elo 6y ago

VonGuard 6y ago

Completely agree. Apple has nothing but contempt for its developers, and treats them like indentured servants. "Oh it took 10 years to get your app working right? Well, it doesn't work right anymore after yesterday's patch."

uncledave 6y ago
That could be said for any platform these days. It's certainly not specific to Apple!
- foepys 6y ago
  Microsoft broke a lot in the past few years when they got rid of their dedicated QA department(s) but they are very keen of fixing backwards compatibility issues. I can still run my desktop application that I compiled in 1998. Try that on a Mac.
  - uncledave 6y ago
    Try running 16-bit visual basic, which I was still writing as late as 2000, on a Ryzen and your analogy falls to bits. I remember the entire win16 to win32 porting effort that had to go in. APIs are never stable forever. Change is the only constant and I've learned to embrace it where possible or suffer later.
    - Joe_Cool 6y ago
      That would actually work fine on Windows 10 32bit. It still has NTVDM and can run 16bit and DOS programs.
- pimeys 6y ago
  I guess Windows doesn't break their compatibility almost ever. Linux doesn't break user-space, but of course the libraries you depend on might change in a few decades.
  - uncledave 6y ago
    I've actually spent about 25 years writing software on Windows, mostly desktop. Stuff breaks all the time and getting it fixed is nigh on impossible even if you happen to be a partner with contract. What is claimed to be backwards compatibility is only partially true; reality is that bugs and their workarounds will exist forever. As for Linux and breaking userspace, that's the kernel interface which is stable, not the whole distribution. I really wish people would report that honestly. NT's API is stable too. It doesn't mean Gtk and ComCtl32 doesn't have abhorrent stability problems and bugs in them. The issue is, on all platforms, the thousands of libraries each containing hundreds of calls and data structures.
  - rcoveson 6y ago
    There are some old games I can't get to work on Windows 10 which worked fine on Windows XP. Amusingly, what usually ends up working best is wine.
  - gnubison 6y ago
    There's a 2004 article about this by Joel Spolsky that can be found here[0]. Obviously it is a "tad" out of date (and I don't work on Windows so I can't comment on the situation right now), but it seems that at some point Windows cared deeply about backwards-compatibility. [0]: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost-the-api-war/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...
- ta988 6y ago
  Untrue, Microsoft is much much more open (yes it hurts to say that) in that regard.
- ajkjk 6y ago
  No, but Apple does it worst, and the fact that other companies do it doesn't excuse them in the the slightest.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  It's completely untrue in my experience working with WWW, GNU, and POSIX. Compared to Android, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, eBay, and many other platforms I've developed for, I feel supported and catered to, and if I have a problem or a question, there is an actual human on the other end to guide me, politely and helpfully. Developing for Windows back in the day, it was about halfway there. I had zero ability to communicate back to the platform owners, but I rarely if ever felt shit on, disrespected or disregarded. In contrast, on Win32, I felt like everything I wanted to do had already been considered ahead of time, thought through, and there was an existing and elegant solution available.
tw04 6y ago
Also you're an open source and free project? If you want donations we're going to need a cut of that. Doesn't matter that you're providing our OS with functionality (for free) that we can't or won't create on our own.
- hetspookjee 6y ago
  Is this true? That can't be legal.
  - tw04 6y ago
    Yes, he says it right in the post. They had a donation link in the about section that Apple forced them to remove because the payments weren't going through the app store payment system where they get a cut.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      It might be worth appealing that rule by claiming that the payment is a donation and optional.
      - wayneftw 6y ago
        That would be an instance of very talented developers sinking even more of their time into Apple's despicable platform.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        There's a lot of very undespicable people using the platform, unfortunately…
        wayneftw 6y ago
        I would say not. Supporting a tyrant and a fascist by giving them your money is also despicable. If you buy your stuff used that's fine IMO.

Hamuko 6y ago

I wish Apple would just integrate Wireguard into macOS itself. macOS has a built-in option for VPNs in the network preferences but it's shit like L2TP over IPSec.

sneak 6y ago
I don't think Apple cares very much about personal VPNs, only corporate ones. The number of people who gate a mac purchase on the capability to speak WireGuard is tiny. I now only connect my macs and ios devices to the internet via external VPN router/firewalls on which I have root; I can no longer invest the time to hack macOS sufficiently to permit me to ensure that no unauthorized traffic is leaving it. This means none of my iPads or iPhones have SIMs in them any longer, as I take this approach even when mobile (gl.inet makes a travel VPN router with an LTE interface that runs OpenWRT).
- Hamuko 6y ago
  I would imagine Wireguard usage in corporate networks to increase in the future, so if Apple only cares about corporate VPNs, surely there'd be reason to implement that as well. My guess would rather be that Apple at some point cared about corporate VPNs but no longer do, and that option is mainly just legacy.
  - weitzj 6y ago
    If Wireguard would be certified and you can have a contract with a company to carry the risk of this VPN solution then it will gain traction. I know that technically it is probably superior and safer, but for regulatory things people might still chose Ipsec
- pietrovismara 6y ago
  > I can no longer invest the time to hack macOS sufficiently to permit me to ensure that no unauthorized traffic is leaving it. > This means none of my iPads or iPhones have SIMs in them any longer If you use Apple products for personal use: you sound like a masochist. If you are forced to use them professionally: I'm sorry for you.

lrvick 6y ago

This is exactly why I won't use or develop for Apple products for any amount of money. I can't justify wasting that much time and stress on a platform that clearly is more concerned with meeting the needs of casual users and media professionals rather than developers or those concerned with freedom, security, or privacy.

jjcon 6y ago
> can't justify wasting that much time and stress on a platform that clearly is more concerned with meeting the needs of casual users and media professionals rather than developers It’s because Apple prioritizes users over developers that they have so many users.
- pimeys 6y ago
  This is kind of weird though, but aren't developers also users? Or are they just small enough fraction of the users? Probably it just seems bigger here in Hacker News where most of Apple users are also developers...
  - smoldesu 6y ago
    Developers make up Apple's largest "pro" market, which is part of what makes their treatment of developers confusing. Especially now that they're transitioning to ARM, using a Mac is just an outright disadvantage to developers today.

tandr 6y ago

> Apple should be losing devs in favor of other better platforms, not the other way around. So far, good hardware, close-to-*ix-OS software, and penetration are kind of make them a hard competitor to beat. What other "better" platforms are you thinking about?

smoldesu 6y ago
Ye olde "Thinkpad + Linux" is unironically one of the best options around. I've owned 3 or 4 Thinkpads, and all of them run Linux like they were designed for it. Considering the security issues and hidden analytics in Big Sur, there are plenty of better platforms around. If you're looking to outright replace MacOS, KDE will mostly do the trick. It's super customizable, and contains all of the MacOS idiosyncratic staples (Global menu, dock bar, you get the point). With that, you get perfect Unix compatibility and software freedom, and you're only losing a few proprietary apps in the migration process.
zamalek 6y ago
System76 is one: https://system76.com/ https://system76.com/ Edit: and don't forget that ElementaryOS gets you pretty damned close to the Mac UI experience. I personally prefer GNOME, which seemingly steals inspiration from across the industry, so it's different but also really slick (the use of Super/Winkey as both alt-tab and the launcher is genius).
- Technically 6y ago
  Then you have to deal with a linux UI, which is a complete blocker for me.
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  Hmm...maybe. I know several people who have System76 laptops and none of them would say that they're made well. At best they seem to tolerate poor Clevo-rebrand construction out of a desire to support a libre ecosystem. Complaints like needing to reboot to switch between integrated and discrete graphics, low quality screens, extreme fan noise that then interferes heavily with the microphone, and terribly overpromised battery life are the norm. Has something changed very recently?

Technically 6y ago

Is there a better platform? I don't think so.

api 6y ago

Apple has poorly documented APIs and locked down platforms and app stores. Windows has decades of cruft and the OS itself is basically adware at this point with "recommendations" and shit showing up constantly, un-removable foistware, dark patterns to herd you into MS cloud, and loads of gratuitous telemetry. Windows drivers, driver signing, and installers are all horrors that can reduce one to a gibbering lunatic like the poor souls in Lovecraft's fiction. Networking is horrific too, and NTFS is slow. Linux has fragmentation, fragmentation, fragmentation. There are at least three package formats, two or three inits (though I think we're converging on systemd in spite of its many warts), and loads of gratuitous distributions and sub-distributions and spins of distributions that have no reason to exist except for some minor holy war over some minutia or license holy wars. Oh and the most popular package formats, dpkg and RPM, are arcane nightmares from the pit of hell. Every time I get mad at Apple I try working with another platform and realize Apple is not that bad. They all suck.

__turbobrew__ 6y ago
What about BSD? They tend to be less fragmented than Linux. The only showstopper for me with BSD is the lack of docker, but if you are happy not using docker or using jails instead BSD can be a good experience.
- api 6y ago
  I like it, but the fact is that not many people use it and the ecosystem is small. That makes it hard to convince more people to use it due to difficulty hiring, staffing, getting answers on forums, etc.

pietrovismara 6y ago

I can't believe great, generous people in their best intentions keep developing FOSS for a closed platform like Apple's. Do they want a closed platform? Let's give it to them. Stop developing FOSS for Apple. It's a "market share" I'll happily give up (and I did already).

drummer 6y ago

My dearest Jason, please just stop wasting time on the closed crApple platforms with all the censorship these days. Your talents can be put to better use. If crApple users want to use wireguard, they can switch to linux or windows. In fact, this will benefit all of us.