5 ms·

> The average American earns more than the average European The difference is that citizens of the EU don't die when the money stops flowing because there are

> The average American earns more than the average European The difference is that citizens of the EU don't die when the money stops flowing because there are multiple social insurances in place. So at least the reduction of income that is insurance should be considered a wrong measurement, because it's taken off before taxes.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
EU countries have substantially better safety nets than the US, but you're overcorrecting if you see that as an ironclad guarantee that everyone can afford the necessities of life. Hunger and homelessness are still very real problems there.
- cookiengineer 6y ago
  > Hunger and homelessness are still very real problems there. I totally agree with you there. Here in Germany, most homeless people could not even start to work because you need a legal residence to get a bank account (getting paid in cash or via check is illegal in Germany), so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV). There are some initiatives in larger cities though where they provide shelters so that homeless people can have a legal postal address to get back on their feet.
  - pizza234 6y ago
    > Here in Germany, most homeless people could not even start to work because you need a legal residence to get a bank account (getting paid in cash or via check is illegal in Germany), so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV). This is not specific of Germany/EU, and it's actually a principle of pretty much of any society. Countries can't just give away residence and money for free. If one belongs to EU, getting residence is easy; if not, the visa conditions apply. Therefore, you're talking about illegals (and/or refugees), which is a different matter. It's actually funny (in a tragic way) that countries like Germany or France took the highest number of refugees during the crisis (official stats: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...), and citizens still complain. In other words, ironically, countries may as well block entrance to asylum seekers, or throw homeless away out of the borders, and the public opinion will be negative regardless.
    - cookiengineer 6y ago
      I was not talking about refugees in particular, but more in general about people that lost their home; implying that they had a German residence before, or were born in Germany and still have a German passport (aka Personalausweis). Those people that lost their home and would theoretically be willing to work still cannot; hence because they don't have a postal address which is required to get a bank account. Since the new Zahlungskontengesetz was established, all people that have a German citizenship have a right to get a Basiskonto [1] and banks must comply. Though the legal loophole here is that getting a bank account still requires a postal address. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__31.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__31.html
  - adwn 6y ago
    > so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV) That's incorrect. You can collect Arbeitslosengeld II ("Hartz IV") in cash at the local job center, no bank account required.
    - cookiengineer 6y ago
      > You can collect Arbeitslosengeld II ("Hartz IV") in cash at the local job center, no bank account required. First off, that's not the default. So statistically this isn't true. Second: The Finanzamt and the GwG would have a different opinion about that, see [1] and [2] (pp. 10 and pp. 11) regarding that. I personally know somebody who did collect it in cash in the past, got sued by the Finanzamt, and lost in front of the court (ironically with a Bargeldstrafe). Also note that even the SGB 2 and 3 make this very clear, without room for interpretation, that you need a bank account [3] (pp. 43). The only theoretical exception would be if the costs for a bank account would require more than 100 bucks that you are legible to get in advance per month [4] (pp. 43a) but that's pretty much impossible to prove without having a bank account in the first place. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gwg_2017/__10.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gwg_2017/__10.html [2] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gwg_2017/__11.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gwg_2017/__11.html [3] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_2/__42.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_2/__42.html [4] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_2/__43a.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_2/__43a.html
- nradov 6y ago
  How is the safety net in Bulgaria and Romania?
  - bildung 6y ago
    Romania has cost-free universal healthcare, free maternity care, vacation after labor, with 85% of previous net income paid. There is unemployment aid, and subsidies for heat and electicity for the poor. State pension relative to previous income, with a fixed minimum pay. Bulgaria is very poor (average yearly wage USD3600/year), but they still have: Universal Health care (though there is a fee of USD 0,62 per visit), children under 16 are free. Maternity allowance, with extras for e.g. twins, disabled children and mothers currently studying. Social benefits like guaranteed minimum income (though very low) and unemployment benefits. And state pensions.
    - userulluipeste 6y ago
      To add a bit of info for Romania, the public healthcare is (still) plagued with corruption (pun intended). I've heard people saying that one is better off on private clinics ...financially! About heat and electricity subventions, I've just found out that for one block of flats (with 3rd comfort-level living spaces, i.e. for mostly poor people) there haven't been any submitted heating subvention applications for years, and that includes this pandemic-affected cold season. The unemployment goes 75%+ of previous income and is dependent on various factors. For example, contributions to unemployment fund has to be paid at least for 12 months in the last two years¹. ¹ (in Romanian) https://www.cursvalutar.ro/blog/ajutorul-de-somaj-ce-este-cum-se-calculeaza-si-care-sunt-conditiile-de-obtinere/ https://www.cursvalutar.ro/blog/ajutorul-de-somaj-ce-este-cu...
inglor_cz 6y ago
An EU citizen here. We have a more extensive social net - especially healthcare, true. But our homeless problem is pretty big too. People with addictions, people with cognitive problems, foreigners who do not speak the local language (HUGE obstacle in a borderless union of twenty languages!), people unfamiliar with the welfare regulations (it usually takes some hoops to jump through before you get some money) fall through the cracks in a way uncannily similar to the American one.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

EU countries have substantially better safety nets than the US, but you're overcorrecting if you see that as an ironclad guarantee that everyone can afford the necessities of life. Hunger and homelessness are still very real problems there.

cookiengineer 6y ago
> Hunger and homelessness are still very real problems there. I totally agree with you there. Here in Germany, most homeless people could not even start to work because you need a legal residence to get a bank account (getting paid in cash or via check is illegal in Germany), so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV). There are some initiatives in larger cities though where they provide shelters so that homeless people can have a legal postal address to get back on their feet.
- pizza234 6y ago
  > Here in Germany, most homeless people could not even start to work because you need a legal residence to get a bank account (getting paid in cash or via check is illegal in Germany), so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV). This is not specific of Germany/EU, and it's actually a principle of pretty much of any society. Countries can't just give away residence and money for free. If one belongs to EU, getting residence is easy; if not, the visa conditions apply. Therefore, you're talking about illegals (and/or refugees), which is a different matter. It's actually funny (in a tragic way) that countries like Germany or France took the highest number of refugees during the crisis (official stats: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...), and citizens still complain. In other words, ironically, countries may as well block entrance to asylum seekers, or throw homeless away out of the borders, and the public opinion will be negative regardless.
  - cookiengineer 6y ago
    I was not talking about refugees in particular, but more in general about people that lost their home; implying that they had a German residence before, or were born in Germany and still have a German passport (aka Personalausweis). Those people that lost their home and would theoretically be willing to work still cannot; hence because they don't have a postal address which is required to get a bank account. Since the new Zahlungskontengesetz was established, all people that have a German citizenship have a right to get a Basiskonto [1] and banks must comply. Though the legal loophole here is that getting a bank account still requires a postal address. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__31.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__31.html
- adwn 6y ago
  > so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV) That's incorrect. You can collect Arbeitslosengeld II ("Hartz IV") in cash at the local job center, no bank account required.
  - cookiengineer 6y ago
    > You can collect Arbeitslosengeld II ("Hartz IV") in cash at the local job center, no bank account required. First off, that's not the default. So statistically this isn't true. Second: The Finanzamt and the GwG would have a different opinion about that, see [1] and [2] (pp. 10 and pp. 11) regarding that. I personally know somebody who did collect it in cash in the past, got sued by the Finanzamt, and lost in front of the court (ironically with a Bargeldstrafe). Also note that even the SGB 2 and 3 make this very clear, without room for interpretation, that you need a bank account [3] (pp. 43). The only theoretical exception would be if the costs for a bank account would require more than 100 bucks that you are legible to get in advance per month [4] (pp. 43a) but that's pretty much impossible to prove without having a bank account in the first place. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gwg_2017/__10.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gwg_2017/__10.html [2] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gwg_2017/__11.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gwg_2017/__11.html [3] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_2/__42.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_2/__42.html [4] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_2/__43a.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/sgb_2/__43a.html
nradov 6y ago
How is the safety net in Bulgaria and Romania?
- bildung 6y ago
  Romania has cost-free universal healthcare, free maternity care, vacation after labor, with 85% of previous net income paid. There is unemployment aid, and subsidies for heat and electicity for the poor. State pension relative to previous income, with a fixed minimum pay. Bulgaria is very poor (average yearly wage USD3600/year), but they still have: Universal Health care (though there is a fee of USD 0,62 per visit), children under 16 are free. Maternity allowance, with extras for e.g. twins, disabled children and mothers currently studying. Social benefits like guaranteed minimum income (though very low) and unemployment benefits. And state pensions.
  - userulluipeste 6y ago
    To add a bit of info for Romania, the public healthcare is (still) plagued with corruption (pun intended). I've heard people saying that one is better off on private clinics ...financially! About heat and electricity subventions, I've just found out that for one block of flats (with 3rd comfort-level living spaces, i.e. for mostly poor people) there haven't been any submitted heating subvention applications for years, and that includes this pandemic-affected cold season. The unemployment goes 75%+ of previous income and is dependent on various factors. For example, contributions to unemployment fund has to be paid at least for 12 months in the last two years¹. ¹ (in Romanian) https://www.cursvalutar.ro/blog/ajutorul-de-somaj-ce-este-cum-se-calculeaza-si-care-sunt-conditiile-de-obtinere/ https://www.cursvalutar.ro/blog/ajutorul-de-somaj-ce-este-cu...

inglor_cz 6y ago

An EU citizen here. We have a more extensive social net - especially healthcare, true. But our homeless problem is pretty big too. People with addictions, people with cognitive problems, foreigners who do not speak the local language (HUGE obstacle in a borderless union of twenty languages!), people unfamiliar with the welfare regulations (it usually takes some hoops to jump through before you get some money) fall through the cracks in a way uncannily similar to the American one.