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With 2 cops dead after the mob at the Capitol building, maybe the police will take mobs of armed "Protestors" a little more seriously here than they seem to hav

With 2 cops dead after the mob at the Capitol building, maybe the police will take mobs of armed "Protestors" a little more seriously here than they seem to have in the past.

seiferteric 6y ago
Most if not all armed protests before happen in states with legal open carry laws. If this is true, and armed people show up in 50 states, many of which this would be illegal, it will be a totally different ballgame.
- stonecraftwolf 6y ago
  I said as much below, and got downvoted for it. Open carry states are in a different position entirely, though I’m not sure any state police department wants to deal with mass arrests of armed criminals. If they show up in Albany armed, for example, they’re already breaking the law. This could get very ugly.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Koshkin 6y ago
    > breaking the law Which law? The one that says “shall not be infringed?”
    - technothrasher 6y ago
      NYS Penal Law 400, but of course you were being facetious.
      - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
        Those laws are unconstitutional. Open carry in particular is not concealment. I'm not fond of people bringing guns to non-2A protests but there is a document limiting the government's power and every state ratified it.
        anonuser123456 6y ago
        Under the Heller decision, you do have a right to open carry. But on a pragmatic basis, not a very smart idea to bring a gun to a protest. Most citizens are going to assume you are there to provoke violence or partake in it. If you end up in front of a jury, a reasonable citizen not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. And if an officer engages you, they will prevail legally. Bring a sign or a bullhorn to a protest. 2A is for personal self defense when law enforcement is not available or when the state calls on able bodied citizens as a militia.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        ardy42 6y ago
        > But on a pragmatic basis, not a very smart idea to bring a gun to a protest. Most citizens are going to assume you are there to provoke violence or partake in it. If you end up in front of a jury, a reasonable citizen not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Also, it's kinda bad optics. The kind of people who'd bring a gun to a protest are the kind of people who usually oppose gun control....but having a bunch of yahoos with guns getting worked up with overheated rhetoric is going to push more people over to the gun control side. Though, the kind of people who are coming to these protests seem to be the kind of people who (incorrectly) think the bill of rights means they get to be irresponsible assholes without experiencing any consequences, political or otherwise.
        Koshkin 6y ago
        No, the 2A says nothing about self-defense (or hunting or sporting, for that matter). And, the militia is not for “when the state calls,” but to ensure “the security of a free State.”
        selimthegrim 6y ago
        2A is there to permit reasonable use of home weapons so you don’t get to be a rusty shot when they muster you into militia, see response to Shay’s rebellion etc
    - groby_b 6y ago
      No, the one that says "well regulated"
      - Koshkin 6y ago
        “Well regulated” simply means “in a good working condition” (like, e.g., a watch).
        groby_b 6y ago
        Yes. It still says "a well regulated militia", which means a well-organized militia, in an effective fighting shape. We can debate many things about guns, but I think we can agree that for a vast number of gun owners, that's not a statement that applies. No matter if we're textualists or not.
    - cma 6y ago
      Why leave out the 'well regulated militia?'
  - kenhwang 6y ago
    Legally, you're allowed to use emergency powers to suspend open/concealed carry. As open/concealed carry is a privilege granted by legislative law, not a right granted by constitutional charter. Furthermore, most states only permit open/concealed carry if no laws are being broken. So if you're breaking curfew, entering a restricted area, unlawfully assembling, etc, you lose the privilege of carrying. Real question is whether the governments in those states have the political will to act against carry laws.
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      It may not just be political will. If you're facing armed protestors that heavily outnumber you, the better part of wisdom might be to not push the point. (On the other hand, if you're the armed crowd, the better part of wisdom might be to not push the point by trying to actually kill government officials. And that's great, but the better part of wisdom has been in short supply lately...)
      - chii 6y ago
        > the better part of wisdom has been in short supply lately stems from the mentality of "if you're not with us, you're against us" that has been popular du jour.
    - IdoRA 6y ago
      > Legally, you're allowed to use emergency powers to suspend open/concealed carry. No. See for example 42 USC 5207 at the federal level. The southern states I’m familiar with have similar provisions, unsure of others.
      - kenhwang 6y ago
        Maybe read District of Columbia v. Heller. (2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court's opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller's holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those "in common use at the time" finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Even 42 U.S. Code § 5207 allows for temporary surrender and references "otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal, State, or local law" which implies authorization isn't guaranteed.
- Acrobatic_Road 6y ago
  The police won't mess with a crowd of people with guns, legally carried or otherwise. While I don't care about this particular cause, I can't wait to see open carry rallies in all 50 states just for the pearl clutching. lmao, who flagged this?
- ryathal 6y ago
  Do you have actual evidence or is this a gut feeling of what should be right? There is actual evidence of an armed protest being completely peaceful. Michigan had armed protestors in the Capitol building (which was legal at the time) at the start of the covid protests and nothing criminal happened. Open carry advocates regularly demonstrate at least yearly in many states, and again nothing gets violent. The presence of guns seems to make people understand the gravity of the situation and behave accordingly.
nostromo 6y ago
One cop died in the storming at the hands of the mob. One protestor died at the hands of the police. Three protestors had fatal medical issues, and it's not clear they were related to the violence. Another cop died of suicide days later. Nobody knows if his suicide is related to the events on the sixth.
- Karawebnetwork 6y ago
  A death on one side does not erase a death on the other side. This is not a game.
  - novaleaf 6y ago
    The OP strongly implied that 2 cops died at the hands of protesters. I think its appropriate to offer corrected info.
    - whatever1 6y ago
      OP forgot to mention the 2 pipe bombs, the long guns found and the famous zip tie guy. Also forgot to mention the chants to behead Pence and Pelosi.
      - stonecraftwolf 6y ago
        Two zip tie guys, one of whom was a retired Lt. Col. in the Air Force, and there’s video of a large group of men with apparent training and in matching tactical gear moving through the crowd towards the Capitol. One of them has an OathTakers shirt. These were militia.
        uoaei 6y ago
        Oathkeepers / Three Percenters
      - irrational 6y ago
        Don't forget the gallows!
shrubble 6y ago
Was it three, including the one that committed suicide?
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  One attacked during, and one suicide after. 2 total Capitol officers dead.
paganel 6y ago
There were other cops and firemen among those protesting.
partiallypro 6y ago
None of the people killed were by armed protestors though, they used blunt force. Also one of those two cops committed suicide. I'm more fearful of a McVeigh style attack down the line than I am an immediate response. Outside of the literal neo-Nazis (which I believe came up with the term 'ACAB' and I've always found ironic for the other side using it) most radicals don't want to directly engage cops. They probably will want to target Big Tech and Federal buildings.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  Not for lack of trying. With two pipe-bombs at the DNC and RNC headquarters, as well as a truck full of Syrofoam+Gasoline bombs, there were clearly people who were trying to do major damage at the event. EDIT: Given the timing of the DNC + RNC pipe bombs, it has been proposed that the pipe-bombs were purposefully placed away from the Capitol to further confuse capitol police before the riot. Capitol Police were too busy checking out the pipe-bombs to notice the crowd encroaching upon the Capitol building itself.
  - partiallypro 6y ago
    I don't disagree, but those weren't through direct engagement, and afaik no one fired a shot outside of police. I've edited my post to clarify my point that these real threats are people that are smart enough to not directly engage (such as bombers.)
    - dragontamer 6y ago
      I believe most people (and that includes the mob that attacked) don't want to murder people. But herein lies the problem: the mob itself is a perfect opportunity to cause real mayhem. Even if the mob is composed of "relatively peaceful" people who aren't trying to kill people, all it takes is one or two bombs to go off at the right time (or one or two actual right-wing terrorists to take advantage of it), to turn a bad situation into a worse one. Yeah, Timothy McVeigh style attack would be terrible. You know what would be worse? Timothy McVeigh hiding inside of an angry crowd of supporters. Or hell, TWO Timothy McVeighs. How many angry right-wing extreme nuts are coming to this thing next week?
irrational 6y ago
armed "domestic terrorists"
tomcam 6y ago
They didn’t in Seattle after Razz gave out guns and two persons of color were shot.
Balgair 6y ago
Given that there are 6200 National Guard members currently in DC, with 10k expected by Saturday and 15K by Inauguration day, I have a feeling that at least the DC government is more than taking it seriously. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/11/pentagon-authorizes-many-15000-guardsmen-support-inauguration.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/11/pentagon-auth... Specific state capitols are a different story, but the consensus seems to be that they are taking these events very seriously, though response if quite varied. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/11/state-capitols-step-up-security-amid-new-safety-concerns-following-violence-in-dc/ https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/11/... As for the future, I would assume that local officials are very concerned and likely to take seditionists and insurrectionists just as seriously as they had the Women's March previously, if not more so.
- joaomacp 6y ago
  15K seem like low numbers. Well, depends on the weapon technologies they bring I guess. Aerial support should be required.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    Most of the people who show up to these things don't have the appetite for armed resistance.
    - King-Aaron 6y ago
      They sure do like to tell everyone that it's what they're "preparing for" though.
      - Balgair 6y ago
        I remember a Canadian author a few years back (can't remember the name, sorry!) went to a Prepper-Con in the US. He wrote about a lot the classes on survival skills, the ubiquitous barrels of dehydrated corn, and the massive gun fetish. The best part, though, was the end. I'm paraphrasing, but he said that the thing all the other attendees needed wasn't a new hatchet or picatinny rail, rather negative 30 pounds and mile times under 15 minutes.
AniseAbyss 6y ago
Depends what colour of skin they have. Remember this is still America- when black panthers started to exercise their 2nd amendment rights shit hit the fan.
davesque 6y ago
The second cop's death was a seemingly unrelated suicide. Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/01/10/another-capitol-police-death-officer-dies-by-suicide-after-responding-to-pro-trump-riot/?sh=72fa2a9670dd https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/01/10/another...

With 2 cops dead after the mob at the Capitol building, maybe the police will take mobs of armed "Protestors" a little more seriously here than they seem to have in the past.

seiferteric 6y ago

Most if not all armed protests before happen in states with legal open carry laws. If this is true, and armed people show up in 50 states, many of which this would be illegal, it will be a totally different ballgame.

stonecraftwolf 6y ago
I said as much below, and got downvoted for it. Open carry states are in a different position entirely, though I’m not sure any state police department wants to deal with mass arrests of armed criminals. If they show up in Albany armed, for example, they’re already breaking the law. This could get very ugly.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Koshkin 6y ago
  > breaking the law Which law? The one that says “shall not be infringed?”
  - technothrasher 6y ago
    NYS Penal Law 400, but of course you were being facetious.
    - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
      Those laws are unconstitutional. Open carry in particular is not concealment. I'm not fond of people bringing guns to non-2A protests but there is a document limiting the government's power and every state ratified it.
      - anonuser123456 6y ago
        Under the Heller decision, you do have a right to open carry. But on a pragmatic basis, not a very smart idea to bring a gun to a protest. Most citizens are going to assume you are there to provoke violence or partake in it. If you end up in front of a jury, a reasonable citizen not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. And if an officer engages you, they will prevail legally. Bring a sign or a bullhorn to a protest. 2A is for personal self defense when law enforcement is not available or when the state calls on able bodied citizens as a militia.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        ardy42 6y ago
        > But on a pragmatic basis, not a very smart idea to bring a gun to a protest. Most citizens are going to assume you are there to provoke violence or partake in it. If you end up in front of a jury, a reasonable citizen not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Also, it's kinda bad optics. The kind of people who'd bring a gun to a protest are the kind of people who usually oppose gun control....but having a bunch of yahoos with guns getting worked up with overheated rhetoric is going to push more people over to the gun control side. Though, the kind of people who are coming to these protests seem to be the kind of people who (incorrectly) think the bill of rights means they get to be irresponsible assholes without experiencing any consequences, political or otherwise.
        Koshkin 6y ago
        No, the 2A says nothing about self-defense (or hunting or sporting, for that matter). And, the militia is not for “when the state calls,” but to ensure “the security of a free State.”
        selimthegrim 6y ago
        2A is there to permit reasonable use of home weapons so you don’t get to be a rusty shot when they muster you into militia, see response to Shay’s rebellion etc
  - groby_b 6y ago
    No, the one that says "well regulated"
    - Koshkin 6y ago
      “Well regulated” simply means “in a good working condition” (like, e.g., a watch).
      - groby_b 6y ago
        Yes. It still says "a well regulated militia", which means a well-organized militia, in an effective fighting shape. We can debate many things about guns, but I think we can agree that for a vast number of gun owners, that's not a statement that applies. No matter if we're textualists or not.
  - cma 6y ago
    Why leave out the 'well regulated militia?'
- kenhwang 6y ago
  Legally, you're allowed to use emergency powers to suspend open/concealed carry. As open/concealed carry is a privilege granted by legislative law, not a right granted by constitutional charter. Furthermore, most states only permit open/concealed carry if no laws are being broken. So if you're breaking curfew, entering a restricted area, unlawfully assembling, etc, you lose the privilege of carrying. Real question is whether the governments in those states have the political will to act against carry laws.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    It may not just be political will. If you're facing armed protestors that heavily outnumber you, the better part of wisdom might be to not push the point. (On the other hand, if you're the armed crowd, the better part of wisdom might be to not push the point by trying to actually kill government officials. And that's great, but the better part of wisdom has been in short supply lately...)
    - chii 6y ago
      > the better part of wisdom has been in short supply lately stems from the mentality of "if you're not with us, you're against us" that has been popular du jour.
  - IdoRA 6y ago
    > Legally, you're allowed to use emergency powers to suspend open/concealed carry. No. See for example 42 USC 5207 at the federal level. The southern states I’m familiar with have similar provisions, unsure of others.
    - kenhwang 6y ago
      Maybe read District of Columbia v. Heller. (2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court's opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller's holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those "in common use at the time" finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Even 42 U.S. Code § 5207 allows for temporary surrender and references "otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal, State, or local law" which implies authorization isn't guaranteed.
Acrobatic_Road 6y ago
The police won't mess with a crowd of people with guns, legally carried or otherwise. While I don't care about this particular cause, I can't wait to see open carry rallies in all 50 states just for the pearl clutching. lmao, who flagged this?
ryathal 6y ago
Do you have actual evidence or is this a gut feeling of what should be right? There is actual evidence of an armed protest being completely peaceful. Michigan had armed protestors in the Capitol building (which was legal at the time) at the start of the covid protests and nothing criminal happened. Open carry advocates regularly demonstrate at least yearly in many states, and again nothing gets violent. The presence of guns seems to make people understand the gravity of the situation and behave accordingly.

nostromo 6y ago

One cop died in the storming at the hands of the mob. One protestor died at the hands of the police. Three protestors had fatal medical issues, and it's not clear they were related to the violence. Another cop died of suicide days later. Nobody knows if his suicide is related to the events on the sixth.

Karawebnetwork 6y ago
A death on one side does not erase a death on the other side. This is not a game.
- novaleaf 6y ago
  The OP strongly implied that 2 cops died at the hands of protesters. I think its appropriate to offer corrected info.
  - whatever1 6y ago
    OP forgot to mention the 2 pipe bombs, the long guns found and the famous zip tie guy. Also forgot to mention the chants to behead Pence and Pelosi.
    - stonecraftwolf 6y ago
      Two zip tie guys, one of whom was a retired Lt. Col. in the Air Force, and there’s video of a large group of men with apparent training and in matching tactical gear moving through the crowd towards the Capitol. One of them has an OathTakers shirt. These were militia.
      - uoaei 6y ago
        Oathkeepers / Three Percenters
    - irrational 6y ago
      Don't forget the gallows!

shrubble 6y ago

Was it three, including the one that committed suicide?

Jtsummers 6y ago
One attacked during, and one suicide after. 2 total Capitol officers dead.

paganel 6y ago

There were other cops and firemen among those protesting.

partiallypro 6y ago

None of the people killed were by armed protestors though, they used blunt force. Also one of those two cops committed suicide. I'm more fearful of a McVeigh style attack down the line than I am an immediate response. Outside of the literal neo-Nazis (which I believe came up with the term 'ACAB' and I've always found ironic for the other side using it) most radicals don't want to directly engage cops. They probably will want to target Big Tech and Federal buildings.

dragontamer 6y ago
Not for lack of trying. With two pipe-bombs at the DNC and RNC headquarters, as well as a truck full of Syrofoam+Gasoline bombs, there were clearly people who were trying to do major damage at the event. EDIT: Given the timing of the DNC + RNC pipe bombs, it has been proposed that the pipe-bombs were purposefully placed away from the Capitol to further confuse capitol police before the riot. Capitol Police were too busy checking out the pipe-bombs to notice the crowd encroaching upon the Capitol building itself.
- partiallypro 6y ago
  I don't disagree, but those weren't through direct engagement, and afaik no one fired a shot outside of police. I've edited my post to clarify my point that these real threats are people that are smart enough to not directly engage (such as bombers.)
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    I believe most people (and that includes the mob that attacked) don't want to murder people. But herein lies the problem: the mob itself is a perfect opportunity to cause real mayhem. Even if the mob is composed of "relatively peaceful" people who aren't trying to kill people, all it takes is one or two bombs to go off at the right time (or one or two actual right-wing terrorists to take advantage of it), to turn a bad situation into a worse one. Yeah, Timothy McVeigh style attack would be terrible. You know what would be worse? Timothy McVeigh hiding inside of an angry crowd of supporters. Or hell, TWO Timothy McVeighs. How many angry right-wing extreme nuts are coming to this thing next week?

irrational 6y ago

armed "domestic terrorists"

tomcam 6y ago

They didn’t in Seattle after Razz gave out guns and two persons of color were shot.

Balgair 6y ago

Given that there are 6200 National Guard members currently in DC, with 10k expected by Saturday and 15K by Inauguration day, I have a feeling that at least the DC government is more than taking it seriously. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/11/pentagon-authorizes-many-15000-guardsmen-support-inauguration.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/01/11/pentagon-auth... Specific state capitols are a different story, but the consensus seems to be that they are taking these events very seriously, though response if quite varied. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/11/state-capitols-step-up-security-amid-new-safety-concerns-following-violence-in-dc/ https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/11/... As for the future, I would assume that local officials are very concerned and likely to take seditionists and insurrectionists just as seriously as they had the Women's March previously, if not more so.

joaomacp 6y ago
15K seem like low numbers. Well, depends on the weapon technologies they bring I guess. Aerial support should be required.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Most of the people who show up to these things don't have the appetite for armed resistance.
  - King-Aaron 6y ago
    They sure do like to tell everyone that it's what they're "preparing for" though.
    - Balgair 6y ago
      I remember a Canadian author a few years back (can't remember the name, sorry!) went to a Prepper-Con in the US. He wrote about a lot the classes on survival skills, the ubiquitous barrels of dehydrated corn, and the massive gun fetish. The best part, though, was the end. I'm paraphrasing, but he said that the thing all the other attendees needed wasn't a new hatchet or picatinny rail, rather negative 30 pounds and mile times under 15 minutes.

AniseAbyss 6y ago

Depends what colour of skin they have. Remember this is still America- when black panthers started to exercise their 2nd amendment rights shit hit the fan.

davesque 6y ago

The second cop's death was a seemingly unrelated suicide. Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/01/10/another-capitol-police-death-officer-dies-by-suicide-after-responding-to-pro-trump-riot/?sh=72fa2a9670dd https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/01/10/another...