7 ms·

Teacher creates ingenious exam question to find cheaters and catches 14 students

84 points by ColinWright 6y ago

Zealotux 6y ago
Wouldn't that be easier to tell the student to leave their phone on the teacher's desk while they use the restroom?
- Raed667 6y ago
  Students can have multiple phones -one to give and one to use later-, or hide one in the bathroom Godfather style.
- ogogmad 6y ago
  The honest students will hand in their phones. The dishonest ones won't.
- Koffiepoeder 6y ago
  How difficult would it be to turn a restroom into a faraday cage?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mrob 6y ago
    That's not a sufficient solution, because you can download Wikipedia and Stack Overflow and put them on a phone for offline use. It would be better to ban all metal objects and check with metal detectors. Medical implants could be permitted with a doctor's note and higher resolution scanning to check that it's really just the implant triggering the detector.
    - disabled 6y ago
      That is ridiculous. Do you know how much trouble disabled students would have to go through to deal with this? You know disabled students have the right to privacy too, without other students knowing their personal health information. It is not the professor's business either, unless the student wants to disclose the actual disability's name(s) or the specifics around it. Only disability status is required to be disclosed in the US. I personally have 2 neurostimulators inside of me, a power injectable port in my chest (an indwelling central line), a semi-permanent continuous glucose monitor on my arm (external), and a semi-permanent insulin pump connected to my abdomen--and clipped to my waistband (external). All of these alarm to a metal detector. Also, the neurostimulators and insulin pump are sensitive to metal detectors and millimeter wave technology, as in body scanners. The insulin pump is also sensitive to X-Ray radiation. In the case of the insulin pump, it can interfere with the photosensor on the cartridge/reservoir that detects the level of insulin remaining in the cartridge/reservoir. This can literally cause the insulin pump to overdose the person with diabetes. As for neurostimulators, one of the neurostimulators I have has formal reports in the FDA MAUDE database, where people had their lifesaving neurostimulator deactivated by metal detectors. Oh yeah, I also forgot, I have 2 places in my body that have plates/pins: my left shoulder and left ankle. That would set off a metal detector too.
  - disabled 6y ago
    This is not legal in the United States. Intentional jamming of mobile phone signals is against FCC regulations and federal law. Schools have tried jammers in the past, but they have been forced to take them down. Prisons have wanted to utilize them, and have tried to get exceptions to FCC regulations, to no avail. As for handing over mobile phones: that is a prudent step. One of my professors took them up before the exam without advance warning for the final exam, where restroom breaks were definitely going to be utilized due to the length of the exam. Obviously it does not solve the problem. But, according to far more than a few studies, having the phone out of sight raises exam scores. Having the phone in a completely different room raises the exam scores even higher. Basically, your brain treats the phone as an extension to your brain, and in its presence, your brain effectively goes on holiday.
    - detaro 6y ago
      Jammers, which indeed are banned, are not the same as shielded rooms - but the latter is also not all that practical and even if not against radio regulation still might have safety concerns.
raverbashing 6y ago
That is a very good catch Don't answer questions you're not prepared to justify
rho4 6y ago
The same system taught them that cheating is usually rewarded. Seems like un unnecessary harsh and vigilante way to try to correct the system single handedly. I would prefer a professor or school who transparently communicates anti-cheating efforts (like online games do) and - most importantly - actually follows through with them systematically.
- gspr 6y ago
  What broken logic is this? The system generally fails to catch cheaters, therefore it is unfair to be harsh to cheaters when they are caught?
  - rho4 6y ago
    Same logic how laws are more lenient and forgiving and full of 2nd chances for minors.
    - alisonkisk 6y ago
      Adults creating fraudulent college degrees are not minors.
- pridkett 6y ago
  As much as that sounds like a good idea, at most schools you can’t just share the name of cheaters with other faculty due to privacy issues. Yes, I’m not kidding. There’s also the issue that students can appeal and the process usually takes a good amount of effort. But a student who might be looking at another year of tuition and delaying graduation has massively more incentives to challenge it than an assistant professor who is trying to keep his/her head down and get tenure. And that’s why sites like Chegg get away with it.
  - JackFr 6y ago
    From a legal standpoint, the fact that I’ve robbed a dozen banks is not evidence that I robbed a particular bank on a particular date. Similarly, from a quasi-legal standpoint, the fact that I cheated on one exam is not evidence that I cheated or will cheat on another.
siva7 6y ago
Honestly i'm not symphatic with the method used by the instructor. I've seen it many times that instructors who waste time on such plans like bullshit questions are usually the ones with mediocre teaching. It seems clever at first glance but when you look further the question comes up why the students felt the need to cheat and that's where the important digging start.
- QuesnayJr 6y ago
  I found this comment shocking. The worst teacher in the world does not justify cheating. I have had truly horrific teachers, and I never tried using this as an excuse to cheat.
  - siva7 6y ago
    nowhere does this comment justify cheating. putting students with an impossible question in an already stressful situation under pressure is the equvialent of academic dishonesty but on the lecturer side.
    - alisonkisk 6y ago
      A student has no expectation to know everything. A good test is impossible to score 100% and has a curve, to avoid ceiling effects.
greatgib 6y ago
Me I would have fired this teacher. The purpose might be legitimate, but if you can remember your student years, you can imagine the stress that could incur the fact to suddenly encounter a question that they have no way to be able te reply. Imagine a student that was well prepared for the exam, and suddenly there is a question he is supposed to be able to reply as it is in the exam but in no way related to what he prepared. Some stressed students could suddenly feel insecure and wonder what they did badly during their revision. Also, it is like the police creating an illegal situation to catch someone. Would have the students attempted to cheat if there was not a question that made no sense to them? As the article indicate itself, more students than usual went to the bathroom for this exam... It is like a cop coming to you and saying "do you want free drug?", you reply ok and then he arrests you for drug possession charge...
- ogogmad 6y ago
  I encountered questions during my time as a student that I wasn't able to answer. I never thought to cheat.
  - siva7 6y ago
    still the students wasted time on a question they couldn't answer and that impacts a fail/pass grade. don't know in the uk but in germany this wouldn't be legal
    - eecks 6y ago
      My state exams have questions with 3 parts: a, b, c. a is a question about fundamentals. Everyone pretty much needs to get this one correct. If you don't it means you don't know the subject matter. b is a question to test what you have been taught. If you were paying attention and studying you should get most of the marks. It will still be difficult though and there's potential to lose marks. c is a harder question. The students that are advanced in the subject will be able to tackle it. You might be able to get full marks in some of the c questions but probably not them all. In most you will be able to get some marks for effort shown.
    - 6y ago
yorwba 6y ago
This article is mostly a paraphrase of this Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProRevenge/comments/e8f0z1/not_my_revenge_but_my_professor_against_cheaters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProRevenge/comments/e8f0z1/not_my_r... Which has this edit at the bottom: > Edit 2: Hi guys I'm writing this 5 months after the initial post. I'm glad this post is getting attention again and I'm once again receiving messages from people wanting to get in touch with the professor or students from the class, so now that this post has run its initial course, I'll burst everyone's bubble by admitting that I mostly made this story up. It's based on a real incident that happened in my department a couple years ago, but I wasn't in the class personally, I only heard about it third-hand from someone I didn't know that well. So while the general plot and end result of the story is true, I changed some details to keep the professor and school anonymous, and took creative liberty in writing it from a first person viewpoint. Unfortunately the part about my department letting students go to the bathroom during exams with their phones was true, and is still true to this day, and to my knowledge the incident this is based on is the only time that a professor actually took a stand against this shitty policy. > So yeah I don't know the professor personally since the class he taught is not part of my program's curriculum, so I won't put anyone in touch with him or anyone else who knows about the real incident and could expose his identity. > Before anyone reports this for being fake, I will once again stress that while I changed the details, the actual events played out in a similar way and the real professor did in fact get his revenge on the cheaters.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  That read exactly like an 'apocryphal' story (make up for effect). I was suspicious from the first sentence. I wish more HNers could read articles for 'fake news' tells. Especially ironic as the article purportedly was about fake news.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > Unfortunately the part about my department letting students go to the bathroom during exams with their phones was true, and is still true to this day ...what else can you do? You could confiscate phones before a test, but a student who was determined to cheat could have two phones. Do you not allow students to use the bathroom? Do you give them a pat-down before and after they leave the room? Both are plausible strategies I suppose, but strike me as highly invasive.
bhouston 6y ago
No concrete details. No school. No teacher name and not even a class name. I call fake!
kumarvvr 6y ago
Wait, Why are students allowed to have a powerul internet machine with them during the test? In India, all students are supposed to turn off their phones and keep them on the teachers table for the whole duration of the test. Having a phone on person is deemed to be cheating and failed in the test.
- vfinn 6y ago
  You can't put cameras to toilets, you can't prevent semeone from using a toilet, and you can't search someone's pants.
  - bluecalm 6y ago
    Not letting people go to the toilet seems like an obvious solution. It's the same during many situations in life. If you really have to go you fail the test and try again later.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - vfinn 6y ago
      To me it's not obvious, if you consider the possibility to use a toilet a human right of the first class. edit: pretty ridiculous that someone down voted my parent comment.
- ffpip 6y ago
  > In India, all students are supposed to turn off their phones .. There is no rule like that. I'm an Indian student. All exams have different rules. They sometimes ask you to keep phones outside, sometimes near the invigilator, and maybe even in your pockets. Some also refuse to let you use the bathroom throughout the exam (usually 3 hours) But students always find a way to cheat. Nothing will stop cheating.
  - kumarvvr 6y ago
    Ok. My wording was a bit off. My source of rules are national level exams, so I assumed most exams are similar. Even what you described, is ultimately aimed at preventing the student from accessing heir phone during the exam.
jrh206 6y ago
I don't think this is a good parable (regardless of veracity). Occasionally students get hung up on difficult questions, determined to solve them, losing time for the remaining questions. Yes, this is an anti-pattern, but it is a fact of life. By incorporating an impossible question, you waste the time of honest[1] students. Some will recognise that the question is impossible and move on. Some with good exam technique will know not to get stuck on a problem they can't solve until they've had a go at all of the other questions. But some honest and hard-working students will have got a worse grade than they deserved because of this stunt. [1] Consider, as well, 'desperate' students - students who need a certain grade for some reason or another. Maybe this class isn't these students' priority, but they need to pass to be able to study the classes they love. An impossible question could drive these students to cheat, when they never would consider it otherwise[2][3]. [2] Consider the detail "about half the class left the room to use the bathroom during the test - far more than the usual". [3] This bears resemblance to vigilante groups targeting peadophiles. I don't know what to make of that.
- refactor_master 6y ago
  Wouldn’t you say that not getting hung up on the little details is a vital real-world skill? Like you say, it’s a fact of life that some do. Should we ignore it then, so that everybody has a “fairer” chance? In fact, this is one of the most exam-tackling strategies: spot and rake up points with low-hanging fruits throughout the test.
  - jrh206 6y ago
    I would argue that students who haven't learned this skill have a certain expected value of penalty already applied, when they take a legitimate test. An impossible question compounds the penalty. EDIT: In other words, if you know to hoover up the easy marks, you get a better score anyway.
  - watwut 6y ago
    I dont think general engineering exam should contain traps to test your ability to "not get hung up on little details" in the form of unsolvable exercise needed for full credit. A bit offtopic to article, engineering exams tend to be about noticing little details and not ignoring them.
mmillin 6y ago
While I don’t have sympathy for the cheaters who were caught, I really dislike this method of trying to catch them. When encountering an impossible problem, an honest student winds up not only wasting time trying to solve it, but also may get discouraged by the failure to do so. Both of these can result in underperforming for honest students. All that makes me wonder why the teacher didn’t do what most would (and what is common across standardized tests): prevent using the bathroom during the test.
- unishark 6y ago
  At my school an instructor cannot prevent a student from leaving an exam to go to the bathroom if they insist. Keep in mind these exams can be four hours long. Don't recall for sure if it's a CYA policy or the state law, tend to think it was the latter. They can claim it's not allowed, but more savvy students will know better and you have to allow them. You can however have a TA accompany them and wait outside the stall. You can also make them leave their phone but of course they can keep another phone on them.
- _Understated_ 6y ago
  > I really dislike this method of trying to catch them Look at it from the teachers' point of view: 1. They know students are cheating by going to the bathroom and looking up answers (not all of them, but enough) 2. They can't prevent them from going to the bathroom I suppose they could insist that everyone wears trousers and tops that have no pockets and they all put their phones in their bags (and demonstrate that this has been done) but I could imagine this being a violation of some sort of rights... The point is that there was a question in the exam that was hard. Impossibly hard by the sound of things. Some students threw their hands up and said "I have no idea" and skipped it. Some went to the bathroom, looked up the (wrong) answer, and cheated... it's black and white for me I'm afraid.
- disabled 6y ago
  As for banning restroom breaks altogether, there are students who are not on the record, with respect to disability services, that have serious bladder/bowel issues. Also, this can adversely affect these student's grades, as they have to purposely skip eating or dehydrate themselves hours in advance of the exam. Personally, while I am registered at disability services, my issues are particularly severe. I have two rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system. If I hold my bladder, I literally experience something life threatening known as autonomic dysreflexia, which is just about the worst feeling in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_dysreflexia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_dysreflexia I also look completely normal, and I can walk. So, while I do not appear disabled, I am severely disabled, and I cannot hold it. I also have severe bowel issues too, but it's TMI. I am on a last resort medication for that. My professors limit the amount of bathroom breaks (an arbitrary amount) during the exam, and sometimes it is inadequate, especially for somebody like me who gets extended testing time. So, I had to go to disability services and explain my situation (degrading) to be allowed to use the restroom as needed. I had to have another accommodations meeting over these rules. As for a TA escorting me to the restroom and literally standing outside the stall. Yeah, it's degrading, but go ahead, be my guest.
paulgb 6y ago
tl;dr: an engineering prof made an unsolvable problem and had a TA ask the same problem online, and answer it with a wrong answer. Those who answered with the online answer (because they went to the bathroom and found it on their phone) got a zero on the test. There are so many details lacking (e.g. when and where did this happen?) that I question its veracity, but if it did happen it seems pretty inconsiderate to the non-cheating students to put an unsolvable question on there.
- _plg_ 6y ago
  It's from the Mirror so you can't really expect more.
jtokoph 6y ago
I had a few CS professors at the University of Illinois that allowed students to answer “I don’t know” for any question and receive 25% of the points on that question. (I utilized this multiple times myself) If this professor did that, would people be less angry about him putting an unanswerable question on the exam?
- hakre 6y ago
  Nice idea, especially when it's really about learning something. Was it thought that these questions were intentionally without answers?
turbinerneiter 6y ago
Tests suck. I understand they are necessary, and I don't have a better idea on how to do them, bit they suck. I remember the mechanics exams from University. You would get a test that is simply impossible to finish in the given time, which meant that you had to practise doing the calculations really fast. You had to speedrun through the whole exam, pattern matching the examples against stuff you practised. No time to think about them. Knowing fully well that the exam could only be finished in time via this method, they made sure to put examples in it that we had never seen before. And while this is the right way to test understanding, and the way I prefer my tests to be, I really don't understand how they can ask you to do both at the same time, with that time pressure. We had more than 50% fail rate at these exams, which the professor was proud of. And all of this combined with the worst teaching I ever witnessed. I also had a fun experience getting between two professors once. I failed the second semester math exam, and the assistant professor held a refresher course in the third semester, for the roughly 100 people who also failed. It was 1.5 hours for something like 6 weeks. It was the best class I've ever been in, and I really deeply understood all the stuff for the first time. The professor proper then prepared an exam for us that 95% of the people failed (I managed to get a passing grade, along with 5 other people). Literally an old professor being angry at a younger one who does better teaching. And that old professor was even pretty good, to be fair.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Time-pressure tests are completely indefensible except for tests of specific time sensitive skills like landing a plane.
wheybags 6y ago
Ah the mirror, reposting stories from /r/prorevenge. Quality journalism at its best.
eecks 6y ago
I did CS as an undergrad. I'll never forget one assignment that was given to the class. It was difficult and we were all struggling to produce the correct results. Most of us were working on it separately in the computer lab but a few had grouped up to solve it. At one point, someone announced they had found the exact problem and answer detailed online. Everyone (except me) crowded around and confirmed it was the same question. The URL was shared and most people had the answer. Unfortunately it didn't turn out like this article. I scrapped a pass while everyone else in the class got top marks. It left a sour taste in my mouth as I refuse to cheat - even in a pub quiz - but it gave me a reality check I suppose.
- pacamara619 6y ago
  Our Functional Programming professor told us that we're free to use the internet for our homework. Since we'll be doing that at work, we might as well learn how to search for the solution we need. He also told us to wait at least 1-2h after reading a solution online before implementing it so we could (1) avoid plagiarizing and (2) learn how to apply what we just learned.
  - eecks 6y ago
    How is your degree in Googling Stuff working out? :) I'm joking. That situation sounds different.
tjpnz 6y ago
How is this so different to a question being included that wasn't covered in the course material? I've sat several exams where this has happened and the grading took that into account when it was pointed out. In this particular case the question was only worth five points too - not something to tear one's hair out over. Move on to the next and circle back if you have time at the end.
LatteLazy 6y ago
Urg. This is dumb in so many ways. I think articles like this are written as clickbait. Idiots think it's smart and the rest of us argue over fairness/practicality/wider issues.
dsego 6y ago
Our professor performed a much simpler trick. An assistant was watching over us and halfway through the test the professor silently entered the room and several students flinched and looked up while the rest of us were heads down working on the exam. He then asked those students to step outside and bring all their materials. This was before smartphones, so most cheaters had crib notes. One other form of cheating I noticed during exams was students having ear peaces to get instructions from someone outside.
- pacamara619 6y ago
  Your professor made all students who looked up from their sheet go outside in the middle of the exam?
  - dsego 6y ago
    I think it was just a couple of them that got startled and looked suspicious or maybe he was there long enough to spot them whispering. After he called them out, I don't remember if he just checked their sheets and notes and let them return or if he called them to continue the test in another room under stricter supervision. I doubt that the students got wronged or treated unjustly in any way. The assistant might have pointed them out or something but I don't really remember all the details, just the brief anecdote.
bluecalm 6y ago
A lot of comments here focus on two things. One is honest students losing time/being confused. Another is tempting to cheat which might turn some semi-honest students into dishonest ones. I would like to point to a reason I think it's a very good policy to try to catch cheaters and punish then severely and why it's almost always worth the cost. The reason is that it's absolutely soul crushing, motivation killing and unfair for honest people to function in a competitive environment with cheaters. Standards and requirements get higher. Workloads get bigger. Difficulty goes up. You either spend all your time trying to compete or give up. One way or the other the cheaters still win, get all the recognition, status and prizes. It's very easy to lose faith in humanity and just become either cynical about it all or just spiral into mental problems. I see two reasonable solutions. Either make schools not so competitive, there is very little reason for putting so much weight on tests scores or grades. Maybe it's time to re-think it all. Until we can do that I am all for catching cheaters and throwing the book at them. If you try to get ahead by cheating you're hurting all the honest people you left behind. It's not only about you getting an A instead of a B. It's about poisoning the whole environment you operate in.
mabbo 6y ago
I saw this done to beautiful effect at a pub quiz once. Far more common in the UK than anywhere else I've lived, pub quiz is the time honored tradition of drinking in a pub while a guy on a microphone gives everyone questions to answer on a piece of paper. Each table is usually a team, and the winners split some small prize. It's the best. So one night at the Edinburgh University pub, the quizmaster asked a really obscure and weird question, like what was the name of the dog of some character that appeared twice on TV show off the air for twenty years. Naturally, the answer was on Wikipedia. Naturally, the host had changed the answer the day before. And any team that gave his wrong answer lost half their points and were publicly mocked. It was a great night.
6d6b73 6y ago
We really don't need any more fake science spread on the net.

84 points by ColinWright 6y ago

Zealotux 6y ago

Wouldn't that be easier to tell the student to leave their phone on the teacher's desk while they use the restroom?

Raed667 6y ago
Students can have multiple phones -one to give and one to use later-, or hide one in the bathroom Godfather style.
ogogmad 6y ago
The honest students will hand in their phones. The dishonest ones won't.
Koffiepoeder 6y ago
How difficult would it be to turn a restroom into a faraday cage?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mrob 6y ago
  That's not a sufficient solution, because you can download Wikipedia and Stack Overflow and put them on a phone for offline use. It would be better to ban all metal objects and check with metal detectors. Medical implants could be permitted with a doctor's note and higher resolution scanning to check that it's really just the implant triggering the detector.
  - disabled 6y ago
    That is ridiculous. Do you know how much trouble disabled students would have to go through to deal with this? You know disabled students have the right to privacy too, without other students knowing their personal health information. It is not the professor's business either, unless the student wants to disclose the actual disability's name(s) or the specifics around it. Only disability status is required to be disclosed in the US. I personally have 2 neurostimulators inside of me, a power injectable port in my chest (an indwelling central line), a semi-permanent continuous glucose monitor on my arm (external), and a semi-permanent insulin pump connected to my abdomen--and clipped to my waistband (external). All of these alarm to a metal detector. Also, the neurostimulators and insulin pump are sensitive to metal detectors and millimeter wave technology, as in body scanners. The insulin pump is also sensitive to X-Ray radiation. In the case of the insulin pump, it can interfere with the photosensor on the cartridge/reservoir that detects the level of insulin remaining in the cartridge/reservoir. This can literally cause the insulin pump to overdose the person with diabetes. As for neurostimulators, one of the neurostimulators I have has formal reports in the FDA MAUDE database, where people had their lifesaving neurostimulator deactivated by metal detectors. Oh yeah, I also forgot, I have 2 places in my body that have plates/pins: my left shoulder and left ankle. That would set off a metal detector too.
- disabled 6y ago
  This is not legal in the United States. Intentional jamming of mobile phone signals is against FCC regulations and federal law. Schools have tried jammers in the past, but they have been forced to take them down. Prisons have wanted to utilize them, and have tried to get exceptions to FCC regulations, to no avail. As for handing over mobile phones: that is a prudent step. One of my professors took them up before the exam without advance warning for the final exam, where restroom breaks were definitely going to be utilized due to the length of the exam. Obviously it does not solve the problem. But, according to far more than a few studies, having the phone out of sight raises exam scores. Having the phone in a completely different room raises the exam scores even higher. Basically, your brain treats the phone as an extension to your brain, and in its presence, your brain effectively goes on holiday.
  - detaro 6y ago
    Jammers, which indeed are banned, are not the same as shielded rooms - but the latter is also not all that practical and even if not against radio regulation still might have safety concerns.

raverbashing 6y ago

That is a very good catch Don't answer questions you're not prepared to justify

rho4 6y ago

The same system taught them that cheating is usually rewarded. Seems like un unnecessary harsh and vigilante way to try to correct the system single handedly. I would prefer a professor or school who transparently communicates anti-cheating efforts (like online games do) and - most importantly - actually follows through with them systematically.

gspr 6y ago
What broken logic is this? The system generally fails to catch cheaters, therefore it is unfair to be harsh to cheaters when they are caught?
- rho4 6y ago
  Same logic how laws are more lenient and forgiving and full of 2nd chances for minors.
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    Adults creating fraudulent college degrees are not minors.
pridkett 6y ago
As much as that sounds like a good idea, at most schools you can’t just share the name of cheaters with other faculty due to privacy issues. Yes, I’m not kidding. There’s also the issue that students can appeal and the process usually takes a good amount of effort. But a student who might be looking at another year of tuition and delaying graduation has massively more incentives to challenge it than an assistant professor who is trying to keep his/her head down and get tenure. And that’s why sites like Chegg get away with it.
- JackFr 6y ago
  From a legal standpoint, the fact that I’ve robbed a dozen banks is not evidence that I robbed a particular bank on a particular date. Similarly, from a quasi-legal standpoint, the fact that I cheated on one exam is not evidence that I cheated or will cheat on another.

siva7 6y ago

Honestly i'm not symphatic with the method used by the instructor. I've seen it many times that instructors who waste time on such plans like bullshit questions are usually the ones with mediocre teaching. It seems clever at first glance but when you look further the question comes up why the students felt the need to cheat and that's where the important digging start.

QuesnayJr 6y ago
I found this comment shocking. The worst teacher in the world does not justify cheating. I have had truly horrific teachers, and I never tried using this as an excuse to cheat.
- siva7 6y ago
  nowhere does this comment justify cheating. putting students with an impossible question in an already stressful situation under pressure is the equvialent of academic dishonesty but on the lecturer side.
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    A student has no expectation to know everything. A good test is impossible to score 100% and has a curve, to avoid ceiling effects.

greatgib 6y ago

Me I would have fired this teacher. The purpose might be legitimate, but if you can remember your student years, you can imagine the stress that could incur the fact to suddenly encounter a question that they have no way to be able te reply. Imagine a student that was well prepared for the exam, and suddenly there is a question he is supposed to be able to reply as it is in the exam but in no way related to what he prepared. Some stressed students could suddenly feel insecure and wonder what they did badly during their revision. Also, it is like the police creating an illegal situation to catch someone. Would have the students attempted to cheat if there was not a question that made no sense to them? As the article indicate itself, more students than usual went to the bathroom for this exam... It is like a cop coming to you and saying "do you want free drug?", you reply ok and then he arrests you for drug possession charge...

ogogmad 6y ago
I encountered questions during my time as a student that I wasn't able to answer. I never thought to cheat.
- siva7 6y ago
  still the students wasted time on a question they couldn't answer and that impacts a fail/pass grade. don't know in the uk but in germany this wouldn't be legal
  - eecks 6y ago
    My state exams have questions with 3 parts: a, b, c. a is a question about fundamentals. Everyone pretty much needs to get this one correct. If you don't it means you don't know the subject matter. b is a question to test what you have been taught. If you were paying attention and studying you should get most of the marks. It will still be difficult though and there's potential to lose marks. c is a harder question. The students that are advanced in the subject will be able to tackle it. You might be able to get full marks in some of the c questions but probably not them all. In most you will be able to get some marks for effort shown.
  - 6y ago

yorwba 6y ago

This article is mostly a paraphrase of this Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProRevenge/comments/e8f0z1/not_my_revenge_but_my_professor_against_cheaters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProRevenge/comments/e8f0z1/not_my_r... Which has this edit at the bottom: > Edit 2: Hi guys I'm writing this 5 months after the initial post. I'm glad this post is getting attention again and I'm once again receiving messages from people wanting to get in touch with the professor or students from the class, so now that this post has run its initial course, I'll burst everyone's bubble by admitting that I mostly made this story up. It's based on a real incident that happened in my department a couple years ago, but I wasn't in the class personally, I only heard about it third-hand from someone I didn't know that well. So while the general plot and end result of the story is true, I changed some details to keep the professor and school anonymous, and took creative liberty in writing it from a first person viewpoint. Unfortunately the part about my department letting students go to the bathroom during exams with their phones was true, and is still true to this day, and to my knowledge the incident this is based on is the only time that a professor actually took a stand against this shitty policy. > So yeah I don't know the professor personally since the class he taught is not part of my program's curriculum, so I won't put anyone in touch with him or anyone else who knows about the real incident and could expose his identity. > Before anyone reports this for being fake, I will once again stress that while I changed the details, the actual events played out in a similar way and the real professor did in fact get his revenge on the cheaters.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
That read exactly like an 'apocryphal' story (make up for effect). I was suspicious from the first sentence. I wish more HNers could read articles for 'fake news' tells. Especially ironic as the article purportedly was about fake news.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
> Unfortunately the part about my department letting students go to the bathroom during exams with their phones was true, and is still true to this day ...what else can you do? You could confiscate phones before a test, but a student who was determined to cheat could have two phones. Do you not allow students to use the bathroom? Do you give them a pat-down before and after they leave the room? Both are plausible strategies I suppose, but strike me as highly invasive.

bhouston 6y ago

No concrete details. No school. No teacher name and not even a class name. I call fake!

kumarvvr 6y ago

Wait, Why are students allowed to have a powerul internet machine with them during the test? In India, all students are supposed to turn off their phones and keep them on the teachers table for the whole duration of the test. Having a phone on person is deemed to be cheating and failed in the test.

vfinn 6y ago
You can't put cameras to toilets, you can't prevent semeone from using a toilet, and you can't search someone's pants.
- bluecalm 6y ago
  Not letting people go to the toilet seems like an obvious solution. It's the same during many situations in life. If you really have to go you fail the test and try again later.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - vfinn 6y ago
    To me it's not obvious, if you consider the possibility to use a toilet a human right of the first class. edit: pretty ridiculous that someone down voted my parent comment.
ffpip 6y ago
> In India, all students are supposed to turn off their phones .. There is no rule like that. I'm an Indian student. All exams have different rules. They sometimes ask you to keep phones outside, sometimes near the invigilator, and maybe even in your pockets. Some also refuse to let you use the bathroom throughout the exam (usually 3 hours) But students always find a way to cheat. Nothing will stop cheating.
- kumarvvr 6y ago
  Ok. My wording was a bit off. My source of rules are national level exams, so I assumed most exams are similar. Even what you described, is ultimately aimed at preventing the student from accessing heir phone during the exam.

jrh206 6y ago

I don't think this is a good parable (regardless of veracity). Occasionally students get hung up on difficult questions, determined to solve them, losing time for the remaining questions. Yes, this is an anti-pattern, but it is a fact of life. By incorporating an impossible question, you waste the time of honest[1] students. Some will recognise that the question is impossible and move on. Some with good exam technique will know not to get stuck on a problem they can't solve until they've had a go at all of the other questions. But some honest and hard-working students will have got a worse grade than they deserved because of this stunt. [1] Consider, as well, 'desperate' students - students who need a certain grade for some reason or another. Maybe this class isn't these students' priority, but they need to pass to be able to study the classes they love. An impossible question could drive these students to cheat, when they never would consider it otherwise[2][3]. [2] Consider the detail "about half the class left the room to use the bathroom during the test - far more than the usual". [3] This bears resemblance to vigilante groups targeting peadophiles. I don't know what to make of that.

refactor_master 6y ago
Wouldn’t you say that not getting hung up on the little details is a vital real-world skill? Like you say, it’s a fact of life that some do. Should we ignore it then, so that everybody has a “fairer” chance? In fact, this is one of the most exam-tackling strategies: spot and rake up points with low-hanging fruits throughout the test.
- jrh206 6y ago
  I would argue that students who haven't learned this skill have a certain expected value of penalty already applied, when they take a legitimate test. An impossible question compounds the penalty. EDIT: In other words, if you know to hoover up the easy marks, you get a better score anyway.
- watwut 6y ago
  I dont think general engineering exam should contain traps to test your ability to "not get hung up on little details" in the form of unsolvable exercise needed for full credit. A bit offtopic to article, engineering exams tend to be about noticing little details and not ignoring them.

mmillin 6y ago

While I don’t have sympathy for the cheaters who were caught, I really dislike this method of trying to catch them. When encountering an impossible problem, an honest student winds up not only wasting time trying to solve it, but also may get discouraged by the failure to do so. Both of these can result in underperforming for honest students. All that makes me wonder why the teacher didn’t do what most would (and what is common across standardized tests): prevent using the bathroom during the test.

unishark 6y ago
At my school an instructor cannot prevent a student from leaving an exam to go to the bathroom if they insist. Keep in mind these exams can be four hours long. Don't recall for sure if it's a CYA policy or the state law, tend to think it was the latter. They can claim it's not allowed, but more savvy students will know better and you have to allow them. You can however have a TA accompany them and wait outside the stall. You can also make them leave their phone but of course they can keep another phone on them.
_Understated_ 6y ago
> I really dislike this method of trying to catch them Look at it from the teachers' point of view: 1. They know students are cheating by going to the bathroom and looking up answers (not all of them, but enough) 2. They can't prevent them from going to the bathroom I suppose they could insist that everyone wears trousers and tops that have no pockets and they all put their phones in their bags (and demonstrate that this has been done) but I could imagine this being a violation of some sort of rights... The point is that there was a question in the exam that was hard. Impossibly hard by the sound of things. Some students threw their hands up and said "I have no idea" and skipped it. Some went to the bathroom, looked up the (wrong) answer, and cheated... it's black and white for me I'm afraid.
disabled 6y ago
As for banning restroom breaks altogether, there are students who are not on the record, with respect to disability services, that have serious bladder/bowel issues. Also, this can adversely affect these student's grades, as they have to purposely skip eating or dehydrate themselves hours in advance of the exam. Personally, while I am registered at disability services, my issues are particularly severe. I have two rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system. If I hold my bladder, I literally experience something life threatening known as autonomic dysreflexia, which is just about the worst feeling in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_dysreflexia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_dysreflexia I also look completely normal, and I can walk. So, while I do not appear disabled, I am severely disabled, and I cannot hold it. I also have severe bowel issues too, but it's TMI. I am on a last resort medication for that. My professors limit the amount of bathroom breaks (an arbitrary amount) during the exam, and sometimes it is inadequate, especially for somebody like me who gets extended testing time. So, I had to go to disability services and explain my situation (degrading) to be allowed to use the restroom as needed. I had to have another accommodations meeting over these rules. As for a TA escorting me to the restroom and literally standing outside the stall. Yeah, it's degrading, but go ahead, be my guest.

paulgb 6y ago

tl;dr: an engineering prof made an unsolvable problem and had a TA ask the same problem online, and answer it with a wrong answer. Those who answered with the online answer (because they went to the bathroom and found it on their phone) got a zero on the test. There are so many details lacking (e.g. when and where did this happen?) that I question its veracity, but if it did happen it seems pretty inconsiderate to the non-cheating students to put an unsolvable question on there.

_plg_ 6y ago
It's from the Mirror so you can't really expect more.

jtokoph 6y ago

I had a few CS professors at the University of Illinois that allowed students to answer “I don’t know” for any question and receive 25% of the points on that question. (I utilized this multiple times myself) If this professor did that, would people be less angry about him putting an unanswerable question on the exam?

hakre 6y ago
Nice idea, especially when it's really about learning something. Was it thought that these questions were intentionally without answers?

turbinerneiter 6y ago

Tests suck. I understand they are necessary, and I don't have a better idea on how to do them, bit they suck. I remember the mechanics exams from University. You would get a test that is simply impossible to finish in the given time, which meant that you had to practise doing the calculations really fast. You had to speedrun through the whole exam, pattern matching the examples against stuff you practised. No time to think about them. Knowing fully well that the exam could only be finished in time via this method, they made sure to put examples in it that we had never seen before. And while this is the right way to test understanding, and the way I prefer my tests to be, I really don't understand how they can ask you to do both at the same time, with that time pressure. We had more than 50% fail rate at these exams, which the professor was proud of. And all of this combined with the worst teaching I ever witnessed. I also had a fun experience getting between two professors once. I failed the second semester math exam, and the assistant professor held a refresher course in the third semester, for the roughly 100 people who also failed. It was 1.5 hours for something like 6 weeks. It was the best class I've ever been in, and I really deeply understood all the stuff for the first time. The professor proper then prepared an exam for us that 95% of the people failed (I managed to get a passing grade, along with 5 other people). Literally an old professor being angry at a younger one who does better teaching. And that old professor was even pretty good, to be fair.

alisonkisk 6y ago
Time-pressure tests are completely indefensible except for tests of specific time sensitive skills like landing a plane.

wheybags 6y ago

Ah the mirror, reposting stories from /r/prorevenge. Quality journalism at its best.

eecks 6y ago

I did CS as an undergrad. I'll never forget one assignment that was given to the class. It was difficult and we were all struggling to produce the correct results. Most of us were working on it separately in the computer lab but a few had grouped up to solve it. At one point, someone announced they had found the exact problem and answer detailed online. Everyone (except me) crowded around and confirmed it was the same question. The URL was shared and most people had the answer. Unfortunately it didn't turn out like this article. I scrapped a pass while everyone else in the class got top marks. It left a sour taste in my mouth as I refuse to cheat - even in a pub quiz - but it gave me a reality check I suppose.

pacamara619 6y ago
Our Functional Programming professor told us that we're free to use the internet for our homework. Since we'll be doing that at work, we might as well learn how to search for the solution we need. He also told us to wait at least 1-2h after reading a solution online before implementing it so we could (1) avoid plagiarizing and (2) learn how to apply what we just learned.
- eecks 6y ago
  How is your degree in Googling Stuff working out? :) I'm joking. That situation sounds different.

tjpnz 6y ago

How is this so different to a question being included that wasn't covered in the course material? I've sat several exams where this has happened and the grading took that into account when it was pointed out. In this particular case the question was only worth five points too - not something to tear one's hair out over. Move on to the next and circle back if you have time at the end.

LatteLazy 6y ago

Urg. This is dumb in so many ways. I think articles like this are written as clickbait. Idiots think it's smart and the rest of us argue over fairness/practicality/wider issues.

dsego 6y ago

Our professor performed a much simpler trick. An assistant was watching over us and halfway through the test the professor silently entered the room and several students flinched and looked up while the rest of us were heads down working on the exam. He then asked those students to step outside and bring all their materials. This was before smartphones, so most cheaters had crib notes. One other form of cheating I noticed during exams was students having ear peaces to get instructions from someone outside.

pacamara619 6y ago
Your professor made all students who looked up from their sheet go outside in the middle of the exam?
- dsego 6y ago
  I think it was just a couple of them that got startled and looked suspicious or maybe he was there long enough to spot them whispering. After he called them out, I don't remember if he just checked their sheets and notes and let them return or if he called them to continue the test in another room under stricter supervision. I doubt that the students got wronged or treated unjustly in any way. The assistant might have pointed them out or something but I don't really remember all the details, just the brief anecdote.

bluecalm 6y ago

A lot of comments here focus on two things. One is honest students losing time/being confused. Another is tempting to cheat which might turn some semi-honest students into dishonest ones. I would like to point to a reason I think it's a very good policy to try to catch cheaters and punish then severely and why it's almost always worth the cost. The reason is that it's absolutely soul crushing, motivation killing and unfair for honest people to function in a competitive environment with cheaters. Standards and requirements get higher. Workloads get bigger. Difficulty goes up. You either spend all your time trying to compete or give up. One way or the other the cheaters still win, get all the recognition, status and prizes. It's very easy to lose faith in humanity and just become either cynical about it all or just spiral into mental problems. I see two reasonable solutions. Either make schools not so competitive, there is very little reason for putting so much weight on tests scores or grades. Maybe it's time to re-think it all. Until we can do that I am all for catching cheaters and throwing the book at them. If you try to get ahead by cheating you're hurting all the honest people you left behind. It's not only about you getting an A instead of a B. It's about poisoning the whole environment you operate in.

mabbo 6y ago

I saw this done to beautiful effect at a pub quiz once. Far more common in the UK than anywhere else I've lived, pub quiz is the time honored tradition of drinking in a pub while a guy on a microphone gives everyone questions to answer on a piece of paper. Each table is usually a team, and the winners split some small prize. It's the best. So one night at the Edinburgh University pub, the quizmaster asked a really obscure and weird question, like what was the name of the dog of some character that appeared twice on TV show off the air for twenty years. Naturally, the answer was on Wikipedia. Naturally, the host had changed the answer the day before. And any team that gave his wrong answer lost half their points and were publicly mocked. It was a great night.

6d6b73 6y ago

We really don't need any more fake science spread on the net.