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I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this da

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy policy“ (with an Agree button underneath). I could close the window. But there is a hard deadline apparently: Feb 8th. F* you Facebook. I‘d rather stop using Whatsapp altogether. Edit: Will start using Signal app, and for the transition period I‘ll keep an old smartphone with a throwaway Sim card and WhatsApp installed on it to keep updates from absolutely necessary groups I need to be part of.

wuschel 6y ago
It was always a clear business transaction: acess to a messenging service for access to meta data (and now message data). I wonder how Out of curiosity: Does anyone know how the new Whatsapp TOS differ from the Gmail TOS in regard to user data and privacy. How does the Facebook group use data differently than, say Facebook or Microsoft?
- 0x10c0fe11ce 6y ago
  So what should self sentient person do, just lie down and accept the erosions of our blood won freedoms? No thanks. I have right now all my company talking to thousands of customers explaining this mess to them and helping those who need to switch to Signal. So yeah, fuck you FB!
  - lrvick 6y ago
    Signal is no better. You fell into one marketing trap with WhatsApp and have now fallen for another. Signal is another private entity with complete control of the servers and end client binaries. The fact they happen to open source the code is kind of moot since no services are allowed to write alternative implementations, no one can run their own servers or prove what code is running on Signals servers, nor can anyone even distribute reproducibly built binaries from said source code for accountability (e.g. f-droid). There are so many better options. I suggest Element/Matrix which can even bridge to WhatsApp and Signal as needed thanks to community contributed bridges.
    - wuschel 6y ago
      Thank you for the constructive answer. I thought Signal was open source, and the distributed binaries matched the source, and that is was allowed to run your own servers. Are the servers even open source? Are there lirerature regarding the technical/conceptional bits Element/Matrix? What is the tradeoff there?
      - lmm 6y ago
        > I thought Signal was open source, and the distributed binaries matched the source This is sort of true. The source is published and you can build your own binary. But given that you can't distribute Signal outside of official stores and can't pin the version in those official stores (unless you turn off updates on your phone entirely), it's not actually practical to run an audited version, yet alone to make your own changes to the code. > and that is was allowed to run your own servers. Are the servers even open source? EDIT: apparently there is now (purported) server source available, not that that means much when there's no way to even know which code a given server is running, yet alone run a server with different code. They claim that their E2E encryption means control of their servers doesn't matter, but their protocol analyses doesn't actually think about what an attacker might be able to do at the server level, IME. > Are there lirerature regarding the technical/conceptional bits Element/Matrix? What is the tradeoff there? It uses either the same ratchet protocol as Signal or a very similar one. E2E for group chats is more complicated but I don't think you're giving up anything.
        90ctemp 6y ago
        > servers are closed-source. Th They are open source. Please see github.
        lrvick 6y ago
        I largely agree with you but I don't want to see misinformation spread even when it supports my view. The signal server source code is open source now in theory, you are just not permitted to run your own server and have it join the Signal network. We have to take their word for it that they are running the code they publish.
- Closi 6y ago
  > It was always a clear business transaction: acess to a messenging service for access to meta data (and now message data). Nah it wasn’t, I paid for WhatsApp originally and then there was a subscription model for a while. I much prefer both those models, Facebook is just greedy.
foolmeonce 6y ago
Perhaps people should be filling their throw away simcards with random people from the phone book. I am mostly using Signal and will let my WhatsApp expire. I also think matrix is great and would recommend setting up an account by installing element. I think growth in matrix will more fully undermine FB's position as well as Slack/etc.
lrvick 6y ago
So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do centralized services like VK, WhatsApp, Instagram, Apple, etc need to get co-opted into enforcing the will of private entities or governments before we learn our lesson? The only network services this won't become true of at some point in the future are those with decentralized clients and servers obeying a common documented protocol.
- chalst 6y ago
  I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).
  - dessant 6y ago
    > forks ... may not use the official Signal network Is it technically prevented or just frowned upon? The former would be strange, because fixing a bug in your own private fork would also exclude you from the network.
    - csunbird 6y ago
      I actually do not find this unreasonable, maintaining and providing backwards support everyone's custom version with their own quirks would be a big technical burden.
      - dessant 6y ago
        Allowing modding and forks does not mean you have to provide support for them.
dessant 6y ago
Our quest to fully convert to Signal has hit a major wall, Android tablets are not supported as linked devices. Supporting tablets would allow us to chat and send files across devices, without resorting to apps like Messenger.
- skinkestek 6y ago
  Depending on your exact needs either Telegram or (preferably IMO) Matrix might be a solution. (Yes, I think this is correct: For anyone who are currently on WhatsApp or anything Facebook for that matter even Telegram is a huge improvement in most ways.)
  - dessant 6y ago
    I get your point, but moving people to Signal has been an accomplishment on its own, you get to say "we should move to this new private app" only so many times, before your friends and family grab their torches.
    - raziel2p 6y ago
      If you want people to be privacy minded this is what you have to prepare them for, though. Signal could get bought out by a privacy-hostile company next year, or they could go out of business.
      - skinkestek 6y ago
        Or get a visit from the NSA.
    - MayeulC 6y ago
      The good thing is that matrix can be bridged to Signal[1], to allow for a smoother transition period. This is also true with Whatsapp[2], but against their terms of service, so you risk getting banned, and built on reverse-engineering, plus you need an android VM of some sort. I've been personally moving my family to Signal, since that provides the best UX and easier transition from Whatsapp. Once I'm comfortable enough with it, we'll likely transition to matrix. What Matrix is missing is in my view: - Client with simple UI, polished UX, and not just a smoking pot of features: FluffyChat[3] is mostly there. - Server of which I can guarantee the uptime. Dendrite should lower the resource usage for a ~5-100 accounts server, and decentralised identities[4] would allow falling back to another server (such as a friend's). We're mostly there, so I'm starting to prepare the switch, starting with my more technical friends, by setting a bridge up. Hopefully we can finally break that dependency on phone numbers (ideally, domain names as well with [4]) and move on to bey-based IDs. [1] https://github.com/tulir/mautrix-signal https://github.com/tulir/mautrix-signal [1] Older bridge, unmaintained: https://github.com/matrix-hacks/matrix-puppet-signal https://github.com/matrix-hacks/matrix-puppet-signal [2]https://matrix.org/docs/guides/whatsapp-bridging-mautrix-whatsapp https://matrix.org/docs/guides/whatsapp-bridging-mautrix-wha... [3] https://web.fluffychat.im/en/ https://web.fluffychat.im/en/ [4] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/identities/proposals/2787-portable-identities.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/...
rusk 6y ago
As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!
- eznzt 6y ago
  It would be a good thing to lose a chat app that works very well and has E2E by default?
  - jcalve 6y ago
    Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.
    - eznzt 6y ago
      If you need to force people to use alternatives it's because they are not much better to begin with. I've used the Signal app and it's a bug fest. Telegram is not even encrypted by default and there is no option for encrypted groups.
      - GraemeMeyer 6y ago
        > If you need to force people to use alternatives it's because they are not much better to begin with. This isn't necessarily true - that's basically the problem with monopolies and the point of anti-trust. The network effect really can entrench an inferior product.
        Spivak 6y ago
        That's not a useful definition of better though. WhatsApp, Messenger, etc. are better because they're reliable and the people I want to talk to use them. MMS messages are hot garbage but they're still better than a lot of alternatives because everyone with a phone can receive them.
rvwaveren 6y ago
In the EU, there are different terms that you should agree to: https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/updates/terms-of-service-eea https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/updates/terms-of-service-eea As far as I understand, because of GDPR, the sharing of data between Facebook companies is limited. This is different from the US terms.
hkt 6y ago
May I recommend Delta Chat? It's an email client (with clever, seamless encryption based on gpg) with a WhatsApp style interface. There's a desktop client too. I've only ever managed to get one person to use it, but goodness it'd be nice to get rid of WhatsApp. Edit: URL https://delta.chat/ https://delta.chat/
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  Note that gpg provides worse security from an encryption standpoint than signal/WhatsApp
  - hkt 6y ago
    Care to explain?
    - mnw21cam 6y ago
      No perfect forward security. It's a feature, not a bug.
      - dan-robertson 6y ago
        It doesn’t feel like a feature to me. And neither does the lack of deniability. They both feel like things that leak information that doesn’t need to be leaked.
        hkt 6y ago
        Seems somewhat like threat model will determine the need for deniability etc. I don't consider myself to need it, and mine seems like a common enough case - compatible with a normal WhatsApp user's use case.
        mnw21cam 6y ago
        Perfect forward secrecy requires two-way real-time communication, in order to construct a session key that can't be computed from just the private keys and the encrypted message. Therefore the way that PGP's lack of perfect forward secrecy is a feature is that it allows an encrypted message to be generated in a way that doesn't require two-way real-time communication, and can therefore be sent by email. The trade-off is that you then don't have perfect forward secrecy.
madeofpalk 6y ago
> Will start using Signal app I can't do this because everyone else I know uses Whatsapp.
- MayeulC 6y ago
  Well, do you know whether they use Signal as well? You might be surprised. Whatsapp helpfully gives you a transition period during which you can try out both ;)
bserge 6y ago
Anybody interested in SIM cards? UK/IE/RO/MD/UA/RU/etc - cheap and fast delivery :D

wuschel 6y ago

It was always a clear business transaction: acess to a messenging service for access to meta data (and now message data). I wonder how Out of curiosity: Does anyone know how the new Whatsapp TOS differ from the Gmail TOS in regard to user data and privacy. How does the Facebook group use data differently than, say Facebook or Microsoft?

0x10c0fe11ce 6y ago
So what should self sentient person do, just lie down and accept the erosions of our blood won freedoms? No thanks. I have right now all my company talking to thousands of customers explaining this mess to them and helping those who need to switch to Signal. So yeah, fuck you FB!
- lrvick 6y ago
  Signal is no better. You fell into one marketing trap with WhatsApp and have now fallen for another. Signal is another private entity with complete control of the servers and end client binaries. The fact they happen to open source the code is kind of moot since no services are allowed to write alternative implementations, no one can run their own servers or prove what code is running on Signals servers, nor can anyone even distribute reproducibly built binaries from said source code for accountability (e.g. f-droid). There are so many better options. I suggest Element/Matrix which can even bridge to WhatsApp and Signal as needed thanks to community contributed bridges.
  - wuschel 6y ago
    Thank you for the constructive answer. I thought Signal was open source, and the distributed binaries matched the source, and that is was allowed to run your own servers. Are the servers even open source? Are there lirerature regarding the technical/conceptional bits Element/Matrix? What is the tradeoff there?
    - lmm 6y ago
      > I thought Signal was open source, and the distributed binaries matched the source This is sort of true. The source is published and you can build your own binary. But given that you can't distribute Signal outside of official stores and can't pin the version in those official stores (unless you turn off updates on your phone entirely), it's not actually practical to run an audited version, yet alone to make your own changes to the code. > and that is was allowed to run your own servers. Are the servers even open source? EDIT: apparently there is now (purported) server source available, not that that means much when there's no way to even know which code a given server is running, yet alone run a server with different code. They claim that their E2E encryption means control of their servers doesn't matter, but their protocol analyses doesn't actually think about what an attacker might be able to do at the server level, IME. > Are there lirerature regarding the technical/conceptional bits Element/Matrix? What is the tradeoff there? It uses either the same ratchet protocol as Signal or a very similar one. E2E for group chats is more complicated but I don't think you're giving up anything.
      - 90ctemp 6y ago
        > servers are closed-source. Th They are open source. Please see github.
      - lrvick 6y ago
        I largely agree with you but I don't want to see misinformation spread even when it supports my view. The signal server source code is open source now in theory, you are just not permitted to run your own server and have it join the Signal network. We have to take their word for it that they are running the code they publish.
Closi 6y ago
> It was always a clear business transaction: acess to a messenging service for access to meta data (and now message data). Nah it wasn’t, I paid for WhatsApp originally and then there was a subscription model for a while. I much prefer both those models, Facebook is just greedy.

foolmeonce 6y ago

Perhaps people should be filling their throw away simcards with random people from the phone book. I am mostly using Signal and will let my WhatsApp expire. I also think matrix is great and would recommend setting up an account by installing element. I think growth in matrix will more fully undermine FB's position as well as Slack/etc.

lrvick 6y ago

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do centralized services like VK, WhatsApp, Instagram, Apple, etc need to get co-opted into enforcing the will of private entities or governments before we learn our lesson? The only network services this won't become true of at some point in the future are those with decentralized clients and servers obeying a common documented protocol.

chalst 6y ago
I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).
- dessant 6y ago
  > forks ... may not use the official Signal network Is it technically prevented or just frowned upon? The former would be strange, because fixing a bug in your own private fork would also exclude you from the network.
  - csunbird 6y ago
    I actually do not find this unreasonable, maintaining and providing backwards support everyone's custom version with their own quirks would be a big technical burden.
    - dessant 6y ago
      Allowing modding and forks does not mean you have to provide support for them.

dessant 6y ago

Our quest to fully convert to Signal has hit a major wall, Android tablets are not supported as linked devices. Supporting tablets would allow us to chat and send files across devices, without resorting to apps like Messenger.

skinkestek 6y ago
Depending on your exact needs either Telegram or (preferably IMO) Matrix might be a solution. (Yes, I think this is correct: For anyone who are currently on WhatsApp or anything Facebook for that matter even Telegram is a huge improvement in most ways.)
- dessant 6y ago
  I get your point, but moving people to Signal has been an accomplishment on its own, you get to say "we should move to this new private app" only so many times, before your friends and family grab their torches.
  - raziel2p 6y ago
    If you want people to be privacy minded this is what you have to prepare them for, though. Signal could get bought out by a privacy-hostile company next year, or they could go out of business.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      Or get a visit from the NSA.
  - MayeulC 6y ago
    The good thing is that matrix can be bridged to Signal[1], to allow for a smoother transition period. This is also true with Whatsapp[2], but against their terms of service, so you risk getting banned, and built on reverse-engineering, plus you need an android VM of some sort. I've been personally moving my family to Signal, since that provides the best UX and easier transition from Whatsapp. Once I'm comfortable enough with it, we'll likely transition to matrix. What Matrix is missing is in my view: - Client with simple UI, polished UX, and not just a smoking pot of features: FluffyChat[3] is mostly there. - Server of which I can guarantee the uptime. Dendrite should lower the resource usage for a ~5-100 accounts server, and decentralised identities[4] would allow falling back to another server (such as a friend's). We're mostly there, so I'm starting to prepare the switch, starting with my more technical friends, by setting a bridge up. Hopefully we can finally break that dependency on phone numbers (ideally, domain names as well with [4]) and move on to bey-based IDs. [1] https://github.com/tulir/mautrix-signal https://github.com/tulir/mautrix-signal [1] Older bridge, unmaintained: https://github.com/matrix-hacks/matrix-puppet-signal https://github.com/matrix-hacks/matrix-puppet-signal [2]https://matrix.org/docs/guides/whatsapp-bridging-mautrix-whatsapp https://matrix.org/docs/guides/whatsapp-bridging-mautrix-wha... [3] https://web.fluffychat.im/en/ https://web.fluffychat.im/en/ [4] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/identities/proposals/2787-portable-identities.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/...

rusk 6y ago

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

eznzt 6y ago
It would be a good thing to lose a chat app that works very well and has E2E by default?
- jcalve 6y ago
  Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.
  - eznzt 6y ago
    If you need to force people to use alternatives it's because they are not much better to begin with. I've used the Signal app and it's a bug fest. Telegram is not even encrypted by default and there is no option for encrypted groups.
    - GraemeMeyer 6y ago
      > If you need to force people to use alternatives it's because they are not much better to begin with. This isn't necessarily true - that's basically the problem with monopolies and the point of anti-trust. The network effect really can entrench an inferior product.
      - Spivak 6y ago
        That's not a useful definition of better though. WhatsApp, Messenger, etc. are better because they're reliable and the people I want to talk to use them. MMS messages are hot garbage but they're still better than a lot of alternatives because everyone with a phone can receive them.

rvwaveren 6y ago

In the EU, there are different terms that you should agree to: https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/updates/terms-of-service-eea https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/updates/terms-of-service-eea As far as I understand, because of GDPR, the sharing of data between Facebook companies is limited. This is different from the US terms.

hkt 6y ago

May I recommend Delta Chat? It's an email client (with clever, seamless encryption based on gpg) with a WhatsApp style interface. There's a desktop client too. I've only ever managed to get one person to use it, but goodness it'd be nice to get rid of WhatsApp. Edit: URL https://delta.chat/ https://delta.chat/

dan-robertson 6y ago
Note that gpg provides worse security from an encryption standpoint than signal/WhatsApp
- hkt 6y ago
  Care to explain?
  - mnw21cam 6y ago
    No perfect forward security. It's a feature, not a bug.
    - dan-robertson 6y ago
      It doesn’t feel like a feature to me. And neither does the lack of deniability. They both feel like things that leak information that doesn’t need to be leaked.
      - hkt 6y ago
        Seems somewhat like threat model will determine the need for deniability etc. I don't consider myself to need it, and mine seems like a common enough case - compatible with a normal WhatsApp user's use case.
      - mnw21cam 6y ago
        Perfect forward secrecy requires two-way real-time communication, in order to construct a session key that can't be computed from just the private keys and the encrypted message. Therefore the way that PGP's lack of perfect forward secrecy is a feature is that it allows an encrypted message to be generated in a way that doesn't require two-way real-time communication, and can therefore be sent by email. The trade-off is that you then don't have perfect forward secrecy.

madeofpalk 6y ago

> Will start using Signal app I can't do this because everyone else I know uses Whatsapp.

MayeulC 6y ago
Well, do you know whether they use Signal as well? You might be surprised. Whatsapp helpfully gives you a transition period during which you can try out both ;)

bserge 6y ago

Anybody interested in SIM cards? UK/IE/RO/MD/UA/RU/etc - cheap and fast delivery :D