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I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. I tried moving my extended family off WhatsApp onto Signal a couple of years ago and it failed m

I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. I tried moving my extended family off WhatsApp onto Signal a couple of years ago and it failed miserably because the app wasn't nearly as easy to use, and they had all their friends on Whatsapp. Has anyone here had any success moving a large group of people onto something like Signal or Telegram? If so, do you have any tips?

srfvtgb 6y ago
Fortunately I don't live in a place where WhatsApp is completely pervasive. I personally had luck saying "if you want to contact me use Signal, iMessage or at the very least SMS" and when people asked why, I would cite Cambridge Analytica.
- gotem 6y ago
  Which turned out to be a bunch of hyped up marketing talk. Why does every person in SV I know seem to love the narrative that we’re being mind controlled by micro-targeted FB ads, which to be fair is what I used to believe. Everyone on HN switches between “ads don’t work and targeting is BS” to “ads are manipulating our entire country by taking our data”
  - Retric 6y ago
    Not everyone on HN is the same person. So, different people can believe each without any contradiction.
    - qznc 6y ago
      Even individuals are capable to hold contradicting opinions. > There are lots of contradictions in people’s strongly held beliefs. Someone might preach self-sufficiency in politics, but coddle their children. An individual might oppose abortion on the grounds that human life is sacred and may still support the death penalty for convicted murders. A person might argue for the freedom of individual expression in the arts but want hateful speech to be regulated. from https://www.fastcompany.com/3067169/how-your-brain-makes-you-hold-contradictory-beliefs https://www.fastcompany.com/3067169/how-your-brain-makes-you...
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - yspeak 6y ago
        Need better examples as neither given are contradictory. Coddling children is not the same as coddling adults. Unborn babies commit no crime deserving of death.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - rpdillon 6y ago
    I think they are both true, but the second is worded differently than I would. I think ads can work, but don't in many cases (based on recent stories that cancelling certain kinds of ad spend has no effect on outcomes). In some cases, like Uber advertising to get users, this seems entirely plausible. So I largely think ads themselves are kind of harmless. But ad-backed business models are dangerous, because they optimize for "engagement", which tends to promote content that is divisive over more thoughtful, nuanced content. Sadly, it also seems to require gathering huge amounts of information about users in a centralized spot, which seems risky for a variety of reasons. The whole thing reminds me of a call I got about 10 years ago to participate in a survey about smoking, and one of the questions they asked was "Do you believe nicotine causes cancer?" I paused because my understanding is that nicotine itself doesn't cause cancer, but the common delivery mechanisms at the time (smoking, dipping) do increase the risk of cancer. They forced me to answer yes/no, so I said "no", but obviously a decade later, I still remember it. Do ads cause harm? Probably not much, taken on their own. But everything _around_ them seems to.
  - srfvtgb 6y ago
    Whether ad targeting works or not, Cambridge Analytica did show that Facebook was willing to abuse the data people are trusting them with.
- golemiprague 6y ago
  How do you use iMessage if you got android phone? I hate this thing, would rather give my data to facebook then use it because it creates class separation between poor and rich. I have seen it with my kids who wanted iphone because they couldn't communicate with all the iphone kids who used iMessage. That's in itself much worst to me than some privacy which i already gave up on.
  - tryptophan 6y ago
    Absolutely agree. iMessage is even more cancerous in its social implications than WA. I have had smart, educated people say "I got an iphone so I wouldn't be left out of group chats". Because downloading an app is too much work. I'm not sure how asking people to take 5 seconds to do something to improve their life and society became such a taboo.
petersonh 6y ago
I had success moving my friend group onto Signal, but that was a group of young-ish, privacy interested, anti-Facebookers, so it wasn't much of a hard sell.
bigiain 6y ago
From the opposite point of view, in the last hour I’ve been added to 3 different group chats on Signal that were all previously WhatsApp chats (in which I did not participate, in spite of many of those friends repeatedly asking me to). That’s added at least 20 or 30 friends/acquaintances into my signal contact list that I’m 99% sure downloaded signal for the first time this morning.
- misiti3780 6y ago
  Why not just use SMS/iMessage groups ?
  - FabHK 6y ago
    In many countries, few people have iPhones, and SMS are costly.
    - FalconSensei 6y ago
      SMS prices (or 'lack of price') was something that really surprised me after I moved to Canada, as well as phone voicemail. In Brazil we hurry to turn off the call if it goes into voicemail, as we pay to leave a message AND nobody listens to them because it costs a lot to listen (or at least used to).
      - anilakar 6y ago
        As someone whose mobile data plan is faster than home wi-fi and who does not pay for receiving calls and SMSes, the "fixed landline data first" approach in Android really pisses me off.
  - SturgeonsLaw 6y ago
    SMS is not encrypted, iMessage is Apple only
    - misiti3780 6y ago
paulz_ 6y ago
I've moved some group chats to discord and have had pretty good luck with it so far.
deleted 6y ago
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Akronymus 6y ago
I personally moved to Element/Matrix with a large community. It works quite well.
stainforth 6y ago
Network effects as a emergent principle has been discovered to violate the promises of capitalist economics. We have a right to come together and set the limits and terms by which a few can extract from the many.
- netizen-9748 6y ago
  Why must there be extraction at all? Even trade seems like it would be better for the majority of parties involved, including having the effect of not having a bunch of pissed off people down the line.
dijit 6y ago
I contact the majority of my friends with telegram, the UX is similar enough and people get on board quite quickly- the difficult part is convincing someone to install /another/ messaging app- if they have network effects too then it's a hard sell. But once most people have both it gets easier. Signal (UX wise) is not really super great for my family, I burned a lot of my "technical expert advisor" capital and reputation by pushing that too hard.
- ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
  Another vote for Telegram here. I tried to get at least the core group of family/friends on Signal or Wire and to their credit they tried but it never stuck. They loved Telegram so much that we now have the entire extended family/friends on it.
- frereubu 6y ago
  Interesting that you had such a different result with Telegram. I'd prefer to use Signal for privacy reasons, but like you I burnt a lot of social capital trying to get my extended family to use it!
- FalconSensei 6y ago
  I had success at least moving my parents and sister to chat with me on Telegram. I was having weird issues with Telegram video call (very low sound on my parent's phones), so I still had to call them on Whatsapp. Also, didn't find any audio call option on Telegram, only video call.
  - subaquamille 6y ago
    Contrats ! Genuine question: Why don't you use phone call for audio-only calls ? In my experience the quality is better and degrades better. Is it because of bundles quota? In my country most plans includes unlimited voice but not sure what's the "world norm".
    - jamiek88 6y ago
      Well a 6 minute conversation cost me $21 on Xmas day from USA to Europe.
bilekas 6y ago
IMO telegram has the best feature and usability parity as Whatsapp.. As for converting people who are not that interested, I can tell you from experience talking about privacy generally doesn't sell it.
- FalconSensei 6y ago
  People still use facebook/instagram/gmail. If you tell them whatsapp is linked to facebook, it changes nothing to them...
- Valodim 6y ago
  It bears repeating: Telegram is not e2e encrypted. Messages you write on telegram will be stored on some Russian servers forever.
  - bilekas 6y ago
    What are you talking about ? Telegram encryption is based on 2048-bit RSA encryption, 256-bit symmetric AES encryption, and Diffie–Hellman secure key exchange For end2end you can just use the secret chat function.. https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end Feel free to check their source out - https://telegram.org/apps#source-code https://telegram.org/apps#source-code So I'm not sure what 'bears repeating'.
    - Tepix 6y ago
      The "secret chat" function should be default. Why isn't it? Also, it's not available at all for group chats.
deleted 6y ago
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A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
Sadly, no 6 people was my max and those were my family members. And my mom still complains Whatsapp was easier..
gsich 6y ago
Probably depends on you. Do people want stuff from you? If yes chances are good. Don't expect people to uninstall Whatsapp. Having multiple messengers is fine.
nifhel32 6y ago
I moved almost all my friends and family to Telegram. I think the secret, once I managed to get them to install it, was to create common groups instead than many one-to-one chats. Then they got hooked up, mostly thanks to the huge amount of high quality stickers.
narrationbox 6y ago
You can try locking down the app, it's not ideal but it is better than nothing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25664130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25664130
hertzrat 6y ago
I had better luck because most of the people I know aren't deeply invested in their apps. I just told everyone to add me on signal and over the years more people have started using it, and suggest signal or a phone call when its time to have a conversation
qalmakka 6y ago
I managed to get almost everyone I know on Telegram in the last few years, to the point I get a WhatsApp message less than once a week. On the other hand, I usually hundreds of messages daily on Telegram. It's not hard if there's already interest among the people you talk with and you find the right way to get them on board.
- Quiark 6y ago
  And that is an improvement over WhatsApp when Telegram doesn't even encrypt group chats?
- cabamba 6y ago
  Don't you think that Telegram has the same monetization problems (it burns "a few hundred million dollars a year" while the owner left Russia with $300m in his bank account a few years ago) and they already announced their monetization plans https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/23/telegram-to-launch-an-ad-platform-as-it-approaches-500-million-users/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/23/telegram-to-launch-an-ad-p... Where would you move next?
  - SpaceRaccoon 6y ago
    What's wrong with their monetization plans?
jsinai 6y ago
Sure the network effect is strong but let’s not forget how WhatsApp got here in the first place: people installing a strange new app, often shared by their friends via a text message invite link. I remember sitting in a circle with a group of friends one night 10+ years ago while each of us installed WhatsApp and had our first conversations on the app. It was a time when BBM was dominant and cross-platform messaging was new. Fast forward to today and already many of my groups are switching to Telegram or Signal. The move can be made faster now because groups are so prevalent on WhatsApp.
- lifty 6y ago
  Whatsapp had to compete with SMS, so when I was introduced to WhatsApp I thought it was a godsend and immediately adopted it. Also advertised it to all my friends. Switching now might be harder because there is a lot less to gain, besides some non-tangible “privacy”. What is this thing called “privacy”?
  - renjimen 6y ago
    I was nodding along with your comment, wondering why it had been downvoted until I reached your last statement and couldn't tell if you were being serious or not.
    - toyg 6y ago
      I think (and hope) he’s just relying the difficulty of communicating the concept and value of techno-privacy to his friends and relatives - as opposed to the immediate and self-evident differential between whatsapp and sms texts.
    - colmvp 6y ago
      The parent poster is likely mimicking the people asking why are you asking me move to another app when this app does everything fine? To be honest, I'm not well versed in the debate of privacy, but invariably in discussing user tracking by BigCo's a lot of my friends just say "I don't care if they have my data, I've got nothing to hide."
znpy 6y ago
> I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. Be the change you want to see in the world.
MattPalmer1086 6y ago
I've used Signal for years, and for most of that time only had about three people who also used it in my contacts. My wife recently got her entire extended family to use Signal. She has always refused to use WhatsApp. They all love Signal now, and use it all the time. However, this was during a family crisis. During the Covid lockdowns, many companies I know used Signal as their preferred non corporate communication platform over WhatsApp... But again, that was a crisis. It seems to be difficult to dislodge people from their preferred platforms without some kind of external driver to adopt it.
- the_arun 6y ago
  I am moving to Signal too. Group by Group. May not happen over night, but in few weeks
  - happymellon 6y ago
    Signal, that's another one that requires your phone number? Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
    - godelski 6y ago
      Don't they all? But good news is that they have pushed code to allow for usernames (or not even that). It isn't open to the public (or beta) yet, but it looks like the feature is going to be released fairly soon.
      - chappi42 6y ago
        Threema doesn't.
      - happymellon 6y ago
        > Don't they all? That's my point. I hate systems that require a phone number, as they usually mean that I have a substandard experience when I'm not on my phone and I can't sign my children up so that we have a general chat tool. The only option ends up being massively over the top team style chats like Rocketchat, Mattermost, Discord, or Slack. So we end up back on Hangouts. A bit shit for general family conversation. [Edit] If they do allow signing up/in with a username then I'll probably be all over it. That would be awesome news.
shadowfaxRodeo 6y ago
I managed to get most of my family to use telegram. I just stopped using whatsapp and convinced a few of them to do so also, the rest came because they couldn't speak to us otherwise. The key was being stubborn and banking on them eventually wanting to talk to me.
- midasz 6y ago
  > The key was being stubborn and banking on them eventually wanting to talk to me. This. Same for me. I just put a message like this in the family whatsapp groups and then deleted the app/account: 'Hey everyone, I'm not going to be on WhatsApp anymore - you can call, text, signal, telegram or email me. Talk to you later!'. It was that simple. It took a little while but now my family is on Telegram. I know they still use WhatsApp but it's honestly not my problem or issue that they use the app - I just don't want to.
nalekberov 6y ago
It’s just not worth it.
gameswithgo 6y ago
dont use apps at all. works fine.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  If you're in Europe with a typical circle of friends, your advice is basically equivalent to "don't communicate with people, works fine".
holler 6y ago
Yes, I've moved all my friends and family to Telegram and it's been great. I communicate with them daily since many months.
- bashwizard 6y ago
  I hope you're fine with Telegram sharing your location data.
  - detaro 6y ago
    Not turning that on is pretty easy.
    - bashwizard 6y ago
      It's still sharing data. Sorry.
      - detaro 6y ago
        source? I assume you are refer to the thing that went around yesterday? Then no, there is a big difference between the option to share data to get a feature (even though I'd agree the feature isn't well-designed) and what WhatsApp is doing here.
- Tepix 6y ago
  What percentage of those messages are end-to-end encrypted?
  - stiltzkin 6y ago
    Only secret chats, and seems people using WhatsApp, tiktok or FB do not care
  - holler 6y ago
    Zero, but I guess we're not particularly worried about it?
tharne 6y ago
You should try it again now, Signal is very user friendly these days. I've moved most of my very non-tech-savvy family and friends onto it without too much drama.
_jal 6y ago
I don't know how you make your loved ones stop using specific software, and generally speaking I wouldn't want to. But if people want to contact me, well, they have to use a mechanism I also use. I know what you're asking, but I don't think there's a fix unless you somehow have tremendous influence with them. So you either put up with being coerced by your group, or you don't. This is probably easier if you never used the services in the first place. My mom will occasionally whine that she has to open Imessage to talk to me, and that's about the extent of it. But of course, I am missing whatever they get up to on FB without me. And that's OK with me, but I know it isn't with everyone.
codemac 6y ago
Signal - moved my immediate family to it, and now have a few friends on there as well. It had some rockiness maybe about 3 years ago, but with their new group implementation and some other small tweaks I find it just as easy to use as whatsapp, albeit it a little uglier. #1 complaint is the coloring - incoming messages should be high contrast, outgoing should have the background color. For some reason signal does the opposite and it's hideous.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  For info, the colors (and whole style) in Signal are the same as iMessage.
  - codemac 6y ago
    ?? It's not for me on android :(
techsin101 6y ago
this is wrong way to look at things, switch is never binary. Yes i have whatsapp, but i also have discord, messenger, hangouts, etc. You need to find an angle to attract user for something different and then keep them for everything else.
perryizgr8 6y ago
How's signal different? It's also in the same position as whatsapp was a few years ago. For the time being it may be better, but surely it is not a long-term alternative?
- midasz 6y ago
  You don't have to pick a messaging app for life.
  - inbx0 6y ago
    If the new messaging app doesn't have an option to import previous chats from the old platform, changing platforms does come with a price.
- iforgotpassword 6y ago
  My thoughts as well. If the product is free, who is paying the devs? Who is paying for infra? I'm exclusively on Threema since it's not free, and the yearly external code reviews are stellar. The only thing that bugged me was that it was not open source, which changed by the end of 2020. Multi device coming this year, which was the last thing missing for my use case.
- Bit32 6y ago
  > signal Amongst many, many other factors, it's a nonprofit foundation, not a commercial company. Long term, it has backing from people (like the original founders of Whatsapp) who want to see an open solution flourish. Plus people can donate. Also, both the client and server are open source.
bozzcl 6y ago
Unfortunately, I'm on the same stand as you. I managed to move my direct family and one group of friends into Telegram, but the rest didn't follow and many have been pestering me to go back. I was thinking about going back, actually, but using a separate phone number (dual SIM FTW) and a work profile sandbox with heavily restricted permissions. I might still give it a shot, see if that's enough to quell FB's insatiable hunger for personal data.
hliyan 6y ago
I'm wondering if someone can develop a product that addresses the networking effect problem. I.e. a service that allows groups to move their member lists seamlessly between networks and to be able to also see at a glance, which networks (e.g. WhatsApp, Signal, FB Messenger, Slack) the members are on. Perhaps a network of network memberships?
- pharke 6y ago
  Solid https://inrupt.com/solid/ https://inrupt.com/solid/ ActivityPub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub See Fediverse for more examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse
throwaway17_17 6y ago
This is a genuine question, what is it that prohibits your group from using text messages and phone calls? I do not use any apps for communication, and can’t think of why I would have a need.
- el_dev_hell 6y ago
  Not OP but in a similar situation. The main lock-ins for WhatsApp with my friends/family/colleagues are: 1. Group chats. SMS group chat doesn't exist (or it's next to unknown) in Australia. 2. Sharing images and videos. SMS destroys images/videos/gifs (if they even send). 3. International. Messaging friends/colleagues when they're overseas is easy. 4. Videochat (however, it's usually FaceTime with an older relative). I attempted a shift to Telegram with a few close friends and family members. Eventually, we started to drop back to the "normal" comms route because our extended network was on WhatsApp/iMessage and juggling several methods was irritating (e.g you message a friend on Telegram and get no response -- they then message you later that day on WhatsApp -- it's irritating to move the conversation back to Telegram).
- webmobdev 6y ago
  I don't use any of the private and popular messaging apps on my phone and do rely on SMS and phone calls to stay in touch. But there are limitations: - SMS is not encrypted. - SMS supports text only. MMS is not well supported, and often not free. - SMS is sometimes not as "instant" as it can be delayed. - Delivery reports and, read receipts are not user-friendly, and maybe unreliable, too. - Group SMS support depends on your default SMS app. RCS or Rich Communication Service on 4g and 5g looks to fix this, but support and compatibility between network is still lacking. Privacy laws also need a reevaluation as even cellular providers are looking to data harvesting to make more money and RCS may also lack encryption support.
  - kyrra 6y ago
    FYI, Google has a working end-to-end encryption with RCS. https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21574451/android-rcs-encryption-message-end-to-end-beta https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21574451/android-rcs-enc...
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Such implicit locks are quite common a hamper to let the best product succeed. We are all running what most would consider an outdated and poorly designed c.p.u. architecture by modern standards, simply because most software is not compiled to run on other architectures, and it won't be until those architectures see significant adoption.
majjam 6y ago
I moved family and friends quite successfully over once I’d had a child and told them that I didn’t want any photos sharing on facebooks platforms.
intrasight 6y ago
I have used WhatsApp and Telegram and Signal. For me the network effects are the opposite - just driving me back to using text messages.
AdamJacobMuller 6y ago
> Has anyone here had any success moving a large group of people onto something like Signal or Telegram? If so, do you have any tips? I just dropped the link in the title into all the group chats I'm in, said I'm headed to signal and removed myself from the groups. I was not the first person to do that in these groups. Will it cause a critical mass exodus? Idk. I won't know, I won't be back.
Triv888 6y ago
One thing that is strange with signal is that you are required to have a phone number to signup? That's one reason with I prefer Matrix/Element...
baxtr 6y ago
This is changing rapidly. Many people I know are moving Signal. Also, don’t delete WhatsApp right away. Do a “silent” move: whenever people send you a WhatsApp answer on iMessage if they’re Apple users and actively push the Android friends over to signal. Works well in my case.
- sundvor 6y ago
  I'm taking this approach now too. There's a free text status message as well that's suitable for the purpose. App is going in February though.
- frereubu 6y ago
  I like the simple idea of replying on another service, thanks for that.
Hammershaft 6y ago
Telegram is fantastic! Frankly I think it has a better ux then Whatsapp, especially considering the desktop apps.
- qwertox 6y ago
  Telegram isn't serious about privacy. They made my number searchable and notified people who have me in their Google contact list even though I didn't grant Telegram access to my contact list (before the time when Android would enforce this with permissions) and didn't allow them to use my number for anything. Then it turned out that they have a setting where one can opt out, but what good is that if you already were opted in automatically. In "Last Seen & Online" I had a deleted account in the exceptions of those who can always see my status, even though I never added one. Telegram may be better than WhatsApp, but it is far from fantastic.
  - Hammershaft 6y ago
    Those are fair problems that I wasn't aware of.
  - neuronic 6y ago
    You're right but I prefer it over WhatsApp/Facebook and I started using it when about 3/4 of my network moved to Telegram (to support their move away from WhatsApp/Facebook).
  - easytiger 6y ago
    I'm fairly certain I enabled all possible privacy options when I installed telegram. I went to specific lengths to do so. I still get "xyz has joined telegram!" when a new friend joins up from my contact list. Yep: just checked. Nothing more I can do to increase privacy settings. Zero confidence in it after that
- brobinson 6y ago
  Consider Threema instead. It recently went open source and it has top-notch, Signal-quality crypto and you don't need to provide a phone number or email.
zouhair 6y ago
I just stopped sending stuff to friends and family who want to keep using whatsapp. So I just use email.
- qwertox 6y ago
  I also use email (and Threema), but it annoys me a lot when I then get those "(no subject)"-Emails with multi-megabyte VID-20201225-WA0005.mp4 attachments. I just wish they would keep all their WhatsApp stuff away from me.
pier25 6y ago
It's not only about friends. Here in Mexico many small businesses operate with Whatsapp (eg: food delivery, gas delivery, plumber, etc).
anoncow 6y ago
WhatsApp is a masterclass in network effects. You can no longer decide whether or not you want to use it. Because your employer uses it, you have no choice but to use it. The only thing that will disrupt this is if security concerns make companies come out and explicitly ask employees not to use WhatsApp and I don't see that happening any time soon.
- daemin 6y ago
  If your employer insists on installing and using a specific application on a phone, ask them for a phone to use it on. Don't feel the need to install it onto your personal device.
tallanvor 6y ago
My response to anyone is "I'm sorry, but I don't use WhatsApp or Instagram, and I rarely use Facebook because I don't trust them. You can reach me through X, Y, or Z." If someone refuses to make an actual call, text me, email me, or use Signal, then clearly they don't respect me enough for me to need to communicate with them.
- Leherenn 6y ago
  When I had roommates, one only wanted to use services A, B, ... and another one C, D, ... with no intersection between the 2 sets. So we had 2 group chats on two different services and we had to transfer messages from one to the other. I don't know whom was not respecting whom, but I didn't feel really respected either, despite respecting each guy wishes.
contradictioned 6y ago
I managed to get a part of my family to Threema. Just the part of "you are paying for the product, thus you are not the product yourselves" was reasonable enough. In my friends circle we are all on telegram (after trying wire which is just buggy as hell), but I think this is mainly due to its multi device story and then fact that it is not WhatsApp.
- veddox 6y ago
  I shifted my family to Threema last year. Paid for it myself in the case of my younger siblings :D But it‘s working really well.
godelski 6y ago
I've had success and you're right that it is about network effects. So you gotta take into account who you can convince first. But also consider that Signal hasn't been fully featured until about last month. So it isn't a good idea to just try to convert random non-techy people. For them you'd need to use current events that highlight how important privacy is (which there have been quite a few this year). But also focus on generating a critical mass. Now it isn't hard for me to convert people because we'll be planning things and 4/5 people have Signal so you just strong arm the fifth person and then they start using it more because they realize a fair amount of their friends are already there. It takes time though and let's be real about that Signal hasn't been fully featured. Until recently it has been more a geeky app. So tldr target the people you want to convert to develop a critical mass.
paride5745 6y ago
I managed to get people on Telegram by showing Stickers and public groups you can join without sharing your number. Signal is much harder to sell to non-tech users IMHO.
iforgotpassword 6y ago
My family is on Threema, but I advocated for it heavily and it's still an island and they all use WhatsApp in parallel. But at least family photos get shared on Threema now.
lrvick 6y ago
I simply stopped using anything except decentralized ethical services that offer freedom, privacy, and high security like Matrix. I refuse to help walled gardens get bigger. It has cost me a lot of contacts, but so be it. There is always a choice. If you had a friend you respected that was vegan for ethical or environmental convictions would you insist on continuing to exclusively have social gatherings at BBQ restaurants with no menu options for them? Would you take them seriously if they caved to avoid being excluded from the group? When I deleted all walled garden messengers by Google, Facebook etc they knew I wasn't kidding. Anyone that refuses to make small allowances for you living your convictions is not your friend. The people that need to talk to me use matrix now or found other ways to reach out like e-mail or in person. Those that don't respect my ethics don't get free advice from me anymore.
Traubenfuchs 6y ago
Wait til WhatsApp gets ads. The only reason Facebook hasn't introduced them yet is because they are terrified we will leave.
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
It’s a shame the technology and usages are still moving quickly enough that there’s no obvious standardization that’ll last the next five years. Social technologies would benefit from some regulation along the lines of “you must be able to use other apps to send to/receive from your app” for at least a minimal feature set, but it would be super hard to nail down what that regulation should exactly be.
shureluck 6y ago
I moved my entire family onto it easily. But they are fairly conservative and so it simply was a matter of explaining the situation about big tech lying and they were sold.

srfvtgb 6y ago

Fortunately I don't live in a place where WhatsApp is completely pervasive. I personally had luck saying "if you want to contact me use Signal, iMessage or at the very least SMS" and when people asked why, I would cite Cambridge Analytica.

gotem 6y ago
Which turned out to be a bunch of hyped up marketing talk. Why does every person in SV I know seem to love the narrative that we’re being mind controlled by micro-targeted FB ads, which to be fair is what I used to believe. Everyone on HN switches between “ads don’t work and targeting is BS” to “ads are manipulating our entire country by taking our data”
- Retric 6y ago
  Not everyone on HN is the same person. So, different people can believe each without any contradiction.
  - qznc 6y ago
    Even individuals are capable to hold contradicting opinions. > There are lots of contradictions in people’s strongly held beliefs. Someone might preach self-sufficiency in politics, but coddle their children. An individual might oppose abortion on the grounds that human life is sacred and may still support the death penalty for convicted murders. A person might argue for the freedom of individual expression in the arts but want hateful speech to be regulated. from https://www.fastcompany.com/3067169/how-your-brain-makes-you-hold-contradictory-beliefs https://www.fastcompany.com/3067169/how-your-brain-makes-you...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - yspeak 6y ago
      Need better examples as neither given are contradictory. Coddling children is not the same as coddling adults. Unborn babies commit no crime deserving of death.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- rpdillon 6y ago
  I think they are both true, but the second is worded differently than I would. I think ads can work, but don't in many cases (based on recent stories that cancelling certain kinds of ad spend has no effect on outcomes). In some cases, like Uber advertising to get users, this seems entirely plausible. So I largely think ads themselves are kind of harmless. But ad-backed business models are dangerous, because they optimize for "engagement", which tends to promote content that is divisive over more thoughtful, nuanced content. Sadly, it also seems to require gathering huge amounts of information about users in a centralized spot, which seems risky for a variety of reasons. The whole thing reminds me of a call I got about 10 years ago to participate in a survey about smoking, and one of the questions they asked was "Do you believe nicotine causes cancer?" I paused because my understanding is that nicotine itself doesn't cause cancer, but the common delivery mechanisms at the time (smoking, dipping) do increase the risk of cancer. They forced me to answer yes/no, so I said "no", but obviously a decade later, I still remember it. Do ads cause harm? Probably not much, taken on their own. But everything _around_ them seems to.
- srfvtgb 6y ago
  Whether ad targeting works or not, Cambridge Analytica did show that Facebook was willing to abuse the data people are trusting them with.
golemiprague 6y ago
How do you use iMessage if you got android phone? I hate this thing, would rather give my data to facebook then use it because it creates class separation between poor and rich. I have seen it with my kids who wanted iphone because they couldn't communicate with all the iphone kids who used iMessage. That's in itself much worst to me than some privacy which i already gave up on.
- tryptophan 6y ago
  Absolutely agree. iMessage is even more cancerous in its social implications than WA. I have had smart, educated people say "I got an iphone so I wouldn't be left out of group chats". Because downloading an app is too much work. I'm not sure how asking people to take 5 seconds to do something to improve their life and society became such a taboo.

petersonh 6y ago

I had success moving my friend group onto Signal, but that was a group of young-ish, privacy interested, anti-Facebookers, so it wasn't much of a hard sell.

bigiain 6y ago

From the opposite point of view, in the last hour I’ve been added to 3 different group chats on Signal that were all previously WhatsApp chats (in which I did not participate, in spite of many of those friends repeatedly asking me to). That’s added at least 20 or 30 friends/acquaintances into my signal contact list that I’m 99% sure downloaded signal for the first time this morning.

misiti3780 6y ago
Why not just use SMS/iMessage groups ?
- FabHK 6y ago
  In many countries, few people have iPhones, and SMS are costly.
  - FalconSensei 6y ago
    SMS prices (or 'lack of price') was something that really surprised me after I moved to Canada, as well as phone voicemail. In Brazil we hurry to turn off the call if it goes into voicemail, as we pay to leave a message AND nobody listens to them because it costs a lot to listen (or at least used to).
    - anilakar 6y ago
      As someone whose mobile data plan is faster than home wi-fi and who does not pay for receiving calls and SMSes, the "fixed landline data first" approach in Android really pisses me off.
- SturgeonsLaw 6y ago
  SMS is not encrypted, iMessage is Apple only
  - misiti3780 6y ago

paulz_ 6y ago

I've moved some group chats to discord and have had pretty good luck with it so far.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Akronymus 6y ago

I personally moved to Element/Matrix with a large community. It works quite well.

stainforth 6y ago

Network effects as a emergent principle has been discovered to violate the promises of capitalist economics. We have a right to come together and set the limits and terms by which a few can extract from the many.

netizen-9748 6y ago
Why must there be extraction at all? Even trade seems like it would be better for the majority of parties involved, including having the effect of not having a bunch of pissed off people down the line.

dijit 6y ago

I contact the majority of my friends with telegram, the UX is similar enough and people get on board quite quickly- the difficult part is convincing someone to install /another/ messaging app- if they have network effects too then it's a hard sell. But once most people have both it gets easier. Signal (UX wise) is not really super great for my family, I burned a lot of my "technical expert advisor" capital and reputation by pushing that too hard.

ObsoleteNerd 6y ago
Another vote for Telegram here. I tried to get at least the core group of family/friends on Signal or Wire and to their credit they tried but it never stuck. They loved Telegram so much that we now have the entire extended family/friends on it.
frereubu 6y ago
Interesting that you had such a different result with Telegram. I'd prefer to use Signal for privacy reasons, but like you I burnt a lot of social capital trying to get my extended family to use it!
FalconSensei 6y ago
I had success at least moving my parents and sister to chat with me on Telegram. I was having weird issues with Telegram video call (very low sound on my parent's phones), so I still had to call them on Whatsapp. Also, didn't find any audio call option on Telegram, only video call.
- subaquamille 6y ago
  Contrats ! Genuine question: Why don't you use phone call for audio-only calls ? In my experience the quality is better and degrades better. Is it because of bundles quota? In my country most plans includes unlimited voice but not sure what's the "world norm".
  - jamiek88 6y ago
    Well a 6 minute conversation cost me $21 on Xmas day from USA to Europe.

bilekas 6y ago

IMO telegram has the best feature and usability parity as Whatsapp.. As for converting people who are not that interested, I can tell you from experience talking about privacy generally doesn't sell it.

FalconSensei 6y ago
People still use facebook/instagram/gmail. If you tell them whatsapp is linked to facebook, it changes nothing to them...
Valodim 6y ago
It bears repeating: Telegram is not e2e encrypted. Messages you write on telegram will be stored on some Russian servers forever.
- bilekas 6y ago
  What are you talking about ? Telegram encryption is based on 2048-bit RSA encryption, 256-bit symmetric AES encryption, and Diffie–Hellman secure key exchange For end2end you can just use the secret chat function.. https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end Feel free to check their source out - https://telegram.org/apps#source-code https://telegram.org/apps#source-code So I'm not sure what 'bears repeating'.
  - Tepix 6y ago
    The "secret chat" function should be default. Why isn't it? Also, it's not available at all for group chats.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

Sadly, no 6 people was my max and those were my family members. And my mom still complains Whatsapp was easier..

gsich 6y ago

Probably depends on you. Do people want stuff from you? If yes chances are good. Don't expect people to uninstall Whatsapp. Having multiple messengers is fine.

nifhel32 6y ago

I moved almost all my friends and family to Telegram. I think the secret, once I managed to get them to install it, was to create common groups instead than many one-to-one chats. Then they got hooked up, mostly thanks to the huge amount of high quality stickers.

narrationbox 6y ago

You can try locking down the app, it's not ideal but it is better than nothing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25664130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25664130

hertzrat 6y ago

I had better luck because most of the people I know aren't deeply invested in their apps. I just told everyone to add me on signal and over the years more people have started using it, and suggest signal or a phone call when its time to have a conversation

qalmakka 6y ago

I managed to get almost everyone I know on Telegram in the last few years, to the point I get a WhatsApp message less than once a week. On the other hand, I usually hundreds of messages daily on Telegram. It's not hard if there's already interest among the people you talk with and you find the right way to get them on board.

Quiark 6y ago
And that is an improvement over WhatsApp when Telegram doesn't even encrypt group chats?
cabamba 6y ago
Don't you think that Telegram has the same monetization problems (it burns "a few hundred million dollars a year" while the owner left Russia with $300m in his bank account a few years ago) and they already announced their monetization plans https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/23/telegram-to-launch-an-ad-platform-as-it-approaches-500-million-users/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/12/23/telegram-to-launch-an-ad-p... Where would you move next?
- SpaceRaccoon 6y ago
  What's wrong with their monetization plans?

jsinai 6y ago

Sure the network effect is strong but let’s not forget how WhatsApp got here in the first place: people installing a strange new app, often shared by their friends via a text message invite link. I remember sitting in a circle with a group of friends one night 10+ years ago while each of us installed WhatsApp and had our first conversations on the app. It was a time when BBM was dominant and cross-platform messaging was new. Fast forward to today and already many of my groups are switching to Telegram or Signal. The move can be made faster now because groups are so prevalent on WhatsApp.

lifty 6y ago
Whatsapp had to compete with SMS, so when I was introduced to WhatsApp I thought it was a godsend and immediately adopted it. Also advertised it to all my friends. Switching now might be harder because there is a lot less to gain, besides some non-tangible “privacy”. What is this thing called “privacy”?
- renjimen 6y ago
  I was nodding along with your comment, wondering why it had been downvoted until I reached your last statement and couldn't tell if you were being serious or not.
  - toyg 6y ago
    I think (and hope) he’s just relying the difficulty of communicating the concept and value of techno-privacy to his friends and relatives - as opposed to the immediate and self-evident differential between whatsapp and sms texts.
  - colmvp 6y ago
    The parent poster is likely mimicking the people asking why are you asking me move to another app when this app does everything fine? To be honest, I'm not well versed in the debate of privacy, but invariably in discussing user tracking by BigCo's a lot of my friends just say "I don't care if they have my data, I've got nothing to hide."

znpy 6y ago

> I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. Be the change you want to see in the world.

MattPalmer1086 6y ago

I've used Signal for years, and for most of that time only had about three people who also used it in my contacts. My wife recently got her entire extended family to use Signal. She has always refused to use WhatsApp. They all love Signal now, and use it all the time. However, this was during a family crisis. During the Covid lockdowns, many companies I know used Signal as their preferred non corporate communication platform over WhatsApp... But again, that was a crisis. It seems to be difficult to dislodge people from their preferred platforms without some kind of external driver to adopt it.

the_arun 6y ago
I am moving to Signal too. Group by Group. May not happen over night, but in few weeks
- happymellon 6y ago
  Signal, that's another one that requires your phone number? Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
  - godelski 6y ago
    Don't they all? But good news is that they have pushed code to allow for usernames (or not even that). It isn't open to the public (or beta) yet, but it looks like the feature is going to be released fairly soon.
    - chappi42 6y ago
      Threema doesn't.
    - happymellon 6y ago
      > Don't they all? That's my point. I hate systems that require a phone number, as they usually mean that I have a substandard experience when I'm not on my phone and I can't sign my children up so that we have a general chat tool. The only option ends up being massively over the top team style chats like Rocketchat, Mattermost, Discord, or Slack. So we end up back on Hangouts. A bit shit for general family conversation. [Edit] If they do allow signing up/in with a username then I'll probably be all over it. That would be awesome news.

shadowfaxRodeo 6y ago

I managed to get most of my family to use telegram. I just stopped using whatsapp and convinced a few of them to do so also, the rest came because they couldn't speak to us otherwise. The key was being stubborn and banking on them eventually wanting to talk to me.

midasz 6y ago
> The key was being stubborn and banking on them eventually wanting to talk to me. This. Same for me. I just put a message like this in the family whatsapp groups and then deleted the app/account: 'Hey everyone, I'm not going to be on WhatsApp anymore - you can call, text, signal, telegram or email me. Talk to you later!'. It was that simple. It took a little while but now my family is on Telegram. I know they still use WhatsApp but it's honestly not my problem or issue that they use the app - I just don't want to.

nalekberov 6y ago

It’s just not worth it.

gameswithgo 6y ago

dont use apps at all. works fine.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
If you're in Europe with a typical circle of friends, your advice is basically equivalent to "don't communicate with people, works fine".

holler 6y ago

Yes, I've moved all my friends and family to Telegram and it's been great. I communicate with them daily since many months.

bashwizard 6y ago
I hope you're fine with Telegram sharing your location data.
- detaro 6y ago
  Not turning that on is pretty easy.
  - bashwizard 6y ago
    It's still sharing data. Sorry.
    - detaro 6y ago
      source? I assume you are refer to the thing that went around yesterday? Then no, there is a big difference between the option to share data to get a feature (even though I'd agree the feature isn't well-designed) and what WhatsApp is doing here.
Tepix 6y ago
What percentage of those messages are end-to-end encrypted?
- stiltzkin 6y ago
  Only secret chats, and seems people using WhatsApp, tiktok or FB do not care
- holler 6y ago
  Zero, but I guess we're not particularly worried about it?

tharne 6y ago

You should try it again now, Signal is very user friendly these days. I've moved most of my very non-tech-savvy family and friends onto it without too much drama.

_jal 6y ago

I don't know how you make your loved ones stop using specific software, and generally speaking I wouldn't want to. But if people want to contact me, well, they have to use a mechanism I also use. I know what you're asking, but I don't think there's a fix unless you somehow have tremendous influence with them. So you either put up with being coerced by your group, or you don't. This is probably easier if you never used the services in the first place. My mom will occasionally whine that she has to open Imessage to talk to me, and that's about the extent of it. But of course, I am missing whatever they get up to on FB without me. And that's OK with me, but I know it isn't with everyone.

codemac 6y ago

Signal - moved my immediate family to it, and now have a few friends on there as well. It had some rockiness maybe about 3 years ago, but with their new group implementation and some other small tweaks I find it just as easy to use as whatsapp, albeit it a little uglier. #1 complaint is the coloring - incoming messages should be high contrast, outgoing should have the background color. For some reason signal does the opposite and it's hideous.

benhurmarcel 6y ago
For info, the colors (and whole style) in Signal are the same as iMessage.
- codemac 6y ago
  ?? It's not for me on android :(

techsin101 6y ago

this is wrong way to look at things, switch is never binary. Yes i have whatsapp, but i also have discord, messenger, hangouts, etc. You need to find an angle to attract user for something different and then keep them for everything else.

perryizgr8 6y ago

How's signal different? It's also in the same position as whatsapp was a few years ago. For the time being it may be better, but surely it is not a long-term alternative?

midasz 6y ago
You don't have to pick a messaging app for life.
- inbx0 6y ago
  If the new messaging app doesn't have an option to import previous chats from the old platform, changing platforms does come with a price.
iforgotpassword 6y ago
My thoughts as well. If the product is free, who is paying the devs? Who is paying for infra? I'm exclusively on Threema since it's not free, and the yearly external code reviews are stellar. The only thing that bugged me was that it was not open source, which changed by the end of 2020. Multi device coming this year, which was the last thing missing for my use case.
Bit32 6y ago
> signal Amongst many, many other factors, it's a nonprofit foundation, not a commercial company. Long term, it has backing from people (like the original founders of Whatsapp) who want to see an open solution flourish. Plus people can donate. Also, both the client and server are open source.

bozzcl 6y ago

Unfortunately, I'm on the same stand as you. I managed to move my direct family and one group of friends into Telegram, but the rest didn't follow and many have been pestering me to go back. I was thinking about going back, actually, but using a separate phone number (dual SIM FTW) and a work profile sandbox with heavily restricted permissions. I might still give it a shot, see if that's enough to quell FB's insatiable hunger for personal data.

hliyan 6y ago

I'm wondering if someone can develop a product that addresses the networking effect problem. I.e. a service that allows groups to move their member lists seamlessly between networks and to be able to also see at a glance, which networks (e.g. WhatsApp, Signal, FB Messenger, Slack) the members are on. Perhaps a network of network memberships?

pharke 6y ago
Solid https://inrupt.com/solid/ https://inrupt.com/solid/ ActivityPub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub See Fediverse for more examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse

throwaway17_17 6y ago

This is a genuine question, what is it that prohibits your group from using text messages and phone calls? I do not use any apps for communication, and can’t think of why I would have a need.

el_dev_hell 6y ago
Not OP but in a similar situation. The main lock-ins for WhatsApp with my friends/family/colleagues are: 1. Group chats. SMS group chat doesn't exist (or it's next to unknown) in Australia. 2. Sharing images and videos. SMS destroys images/videos/gifs (if they even send). 3. International. Messaging friends/colleagues when they're overseas is easy. 4. Videochat (however, it's usually FaceTime with an older relative). I attempted a shift to Telegram with a few close friends and family members. Eventually, we started to drop back to the "normal" comms route because our extended network was on WhatsApp/iMessage and juggling several methods was irritating (e.g you message a friend on Telegram and get no response -- they then message you later that day on WhatsApp -- it's irritating to move the conversation back to Telegram).
webmobdev 6y ago
I don't use any of the private and popular messaging apps on my phone and do rely on SMS and phone calls to stay in touch. But there are limitations: - SMS is not encrypted. - SMS supports text only. MMS is not well supported, and often not free. - SMS is sometimes not as "instant" as it can be delayed. - Delivery reports and, read receipts are not user-friendly, and maybe unreliable, too. - Group SMS support depends on your default SMS app. RCS or Rich Communication Service on 4g and 5g looks to fix this, but support and compatibility between network is still lacking. Privacy laws also need a reevaluation as even cellular providers are looking to data harvesting to make more money and RCS may also lack encryption support.
- kyrra 6y ago
  FYI, Google has a working end-to-end encryption with RCS. https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21574451/android-rcs-encryption-message-end-to-end-beta https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21574451/android-rcs-enc...

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

Such implicit locks are quite common a hamper to let the best product succeed. We are all running what most would consider an outdated and poorly designed c.p.u. architecture by modern standards, simply because most software is not compiled to run on other architectures, and it won't be until those architectures see significant adoption.

majjam 6y ago

I moved family and friends quite successfully over once I’d had a child and told them that I didn’t want any photos sharing on facebooks platforms.

intrasight 6y ago

I have used WhatsApp and Telegram and Signal. For me the network effects are the opposite - just driving me back to using text messages.

AdamJacobMuller 6y ago

> Has anyone here had any success moving a large group of people onto something like Signal or Telegram? If so, do you have any tips? I just dropped the link in the title into all the group chats I'm in, said I'm headed to signal and removed myself from the groups. I was not the first person to do that in these groups. Will it cause a critical mass exodus? Idk. I won't know, I won't be back.

Triv888 6y ago

One thing that is strange with signal is that you are required to have a phone number to signup? That's one reason with I prefer Matrix/Element...

baxtr 6y ago

This is changing rapidly. Many people I know are moving Signal. Also, don’t delete WhatsApp right away. Do a “silent” move: whenever people send you a WhatsApp answer on iMessage if they’re Apple users and actively push the Android friends over to signal. Works well in my case.

sundvor 6y ago
I'm taking this approach now too. There's a free text status message as well that's suitable for the purpose. App is going in February though.
frereubu 6y ago
I like the simple idea of replying on another service, thanks for that.

Hammershaft 6y ago

Telegram is fantastic! Frankly I think it has a better ux then Whatsapp, especially considering the desktop apps.

qwertox 6y ago
Telegram isn't serious about privacy. They made my number searchable and notified people who have me in their Google contact list even though I didn't grant Telegram access to my contact list (before the time when Android would enforce this with permissions) and didn't allow them to use my number for anything. Then it turned out that they have a setting where one can opt out, but what good is that if you already were opted in automatically. In "Last Seen & Online" I had a deleted account in the exceptions of those who can always see my status, even though I never added one. Telegram may be better than WhatsApp, but it is far from fantastic.
- Hammershaft 6y ago
  Those are fair problems that I wasn't aware of.
- neuronic 6y ago
  You're right but I prefer it over WhatsApp/Facebook and I started using it when about 3/4 of my network moved to Telegram (to support their move away from WhatsApp/Facebook).
- easytiger 6y ago
  I'm fairly certain I enabled all possible privacy options when I installed telegram. I went to specific lengths to do so. I still get "xyz has joined telegram!" when a new friend joins up from my contact list. Yep: just checked. Nothing more I can do to increase privacy settings. Zero confidence in it after that
brobinson 6y ago
Consider Threema instead. It recently went open source and it has top-notch, Signal-quality crypto and you don't need to provide a phone number or email.

zouhair 6y ago

I just stopped sending stuff to friends and family who want to keep using whatsapp. So I just use email.

qwertox 6y ago
I also use email (and Threema), but it annoys me a lot when I then get those "(no subject)"-Emails with multi-megabyte VID-20201225-WA0005.mp4 attachments. I just wish they would keep all their WhatsApp stuff away from me.

pier25 6y ago

It's not only about friends. Here in Mexico many small businesses operate with Whatsapp (eg: food delivery, gas delivery, plumber, etc).

anoncow 6y ago

WhatsApp is a masterclass in network effects. You can no longer decide whether or not you want to use it. Because your employer uses it, you have no choice but to use it. The only thing that will disrupt this is if security concerns make companies come out and explicitly ask employees not to use WhatsApp and I don't see that happening any time soon.

daemin 6y ago
If your employer insists on installing and using a specific application on a phone, ask them for a phone to use it on. Don't feel the need to install it onto your personal device.

tallanvor 6y ago

My response to anyone is "I'm sorry, but I don't use WhatsApp or Instagram, and I rarely use Facebook because I don't trust them. You can reach me through X, Y, or Z." If someone refuses to make an actual call, text me, email me, or use Signal, then clearly they don't respect me enough for me to need to communicate with them.

Leherenn 6y ago
When I had roommates, one only wanted to use services A, B, ... and another one C, D, ... with no intersection between the 2 sets. So we had 2 group chats on two different services and we had to transfer messages from one to the other. I don't know whom was not respecting whom, but I didn't feel really respected either, despite respecting each guy wishes.

contradictioned 6y ago

I managed to get a part of my family to Threema. Just the part of "you are paying for the product, thus you are not the product yourselves" was reasonable enough. In my friends circle we are all on telegram (after trying wire which is just buggy as hell), but I think this is mainly due to its multi device story and then fact that it is not WhatsApp.

veddox 6y ago
I shifted my family to Threema last year. Paid for it myself in the case of my younger siblings :D But it‘s working really well.

godelski 6y ago

I've had success and you're right that it is about network effects. So you gotta take into account who you can convince first. But also consider that Signal hasn't been fully featured until about last month. So it isn't a good idea to just try to convert random non-techy people. For them you'd need to use current events that highlight how important privacy is (which there have been quite a few this year). But also focus on generating a critical mass. Now it isn't hard for me to convert people because we'll be planning things and 4/5 people have Signal so you just strong arm the fifth person and then they start using it more because they realize a fair amount of their friends are already there. It takes time though and let's be real about that Signal hasn't been fully featured. Until recently it has been more a geeky app. So tldr target the people you want to convert to develop a critical mass.

paride5745 6y ago

I managed to get people on Telegram by showing Stickers and public groups you can join without sharing your number. Signal is much harder to sell to non-tech users IMHO.

iforgotpassword 6y ago

My family is on Threema, but I advocated for it heavily and it's still an island and they all use WhatsApp in parallel. But at least family photos get shared on Threema now.

lrvick 6y ago

I simply stopped using anything except decentralized ethical services that offer freedom, privacy, and high security like Matrix. I refuse to help walled gardens get bigger. It has cost me a lot of contacts, but so be it. There is always a choice. If you had a friend you respected that was vegan for ethical or environmental convictions would you insist on continuing to exclusively have social gatherings at BBQ restaurants with no menu options for them? Would you take them seriously if they caved to avoid being excluded from the group? When I deleted all walled garden messengers by Google, Facebook etc they knew I wasn't kidding. Anyone that refuses to make small allowances for you living your convictions is not your friend. The people that need to talk to me use matrix now or found other ways to reach out like e-mail or in person. Those that don't respect my ethics don't get free advice from me anymore.

Traubenfuchs 6y ago

Wait til WhatsApp gets ads. The only reason Facebook hasn't introduced them yet is because they are terrified we will leave.

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

It’s a shame the technology and usages are still moving quickly enough that there’s no obvious standardization that’ll last the next five years. Social technologies would benefit from some regulation along the lines of “you must be able to use other apps to send to/receive from your app” for at least a minimal feature set, but it would be super hard to nail down what that regulation should exactly be.

shureluck 6y ago

I moved my entire family onto it easily. But they are fairly conservative and so it simply was a matter of explaining the situation about big tech lying and they were sold.