6 ms·

Expecting a talented software engineer to "upgrade" to become a manager of a development team makes exactly the same amount of sense as expecting a talented acc

Expecting a talented software engineer to "upgrade" to become a manager of a development team makes exactly the same amount of sense as expecting a talented accountant to gain a bit more skill and suddenly become a lawyer.

karmakaze 6y ago
It might be closer to a pro athlete retiring from playing and going into coaching, but not so many would be good in that role.
- rileymat2 6y ago
  This is interesting I did a bit of Googling, I guess it varies by sport quite a bit. https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/around-the-league-nfl/2014/08/24/Why-NFL-coaches-rarely-rise-from-ranks-of-players/stories/201408240108 https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/around-the-league-nfl/20... Some sports, most coaches came from players, but the NFL notably does not.
  - bradstewart 6y ago
    I wonder if team size has anything to do with that. Football teams are much larger than those in other sports.
    - karmakaze 6y ago
      Also the division of roles is far more specialized than say basketball. Only the QB might have a near/full picture.
      - skrtskrt 6y ago
        Linebackers, as the captain of the defense, which requires a deep understanding of the offense as well, tend to end up coaching as well.
    - nkassis 6y ago
      Football team coaching staff are almost like another team. Position coaches usually are ex players of that position but as you move up the chain it gets more into strategic management and thus by the HC level it's more of a manager role with architects underneath for offense and defense so less position technical knowledge more game knowledge.
  - mrfox321 6y ago
    I wonder if brain damage/CTE has something to do with it.
  - marcosdumay 6y ago
    "Most coaches came fro players" is very different from "players are expected to become coaches". I can't think of any sport where players are expected to become coaches.
    - Alex3917 6y ago
      > I can't think of any sport where players are expected to become coaches. In amateur sports it's common. E.g. in rowing, cycling, fencing, cross country skiing, etc., people are generally expected to coach at some point. Albeit usually while they're doing the sport, and not necessarily as their primary careers.
      - phamilton 6y ago
        Yeah, but this might be closer to "actors are expected to wait tables". It has more to do with paying the bills than career advancement.
      - randomswede 6y ago
        To some extent, coaching something you practice is good for giving you another perspective on what it is you're practicing. In an ideal world, this will elevate your skill level. This does, however, not necessarily mean that everyone is a good coach, nor does it mean that everyone should stop practicing what they're doing and focus solely on coaching.
    - Leherenn 6y ago
      Football/soccer? Of course there are more players than coaches so they can't all become coaches, but I would say star players are expected to become coaches, and lots of them do.
    - rileymat2 6y ago
      Oh, I agree, due to it being a pyramid only a fraction could ever become head coaches, so that wording was a stand in for that effect.
  - acheron 6y ago
    In baseball, coaches and managers are all ex-players, but not necessarily good ex-players. (Well, anyone who plays in MLB is “good”, but relative to the rest of the league I mean.) Just like in other industries, the skills required for a good coach or manager don’t always correlate with being the best player.
- rjsw 6y ago
  Almost all football managers are ex players.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - cambalache 6y ago
    Only for a very broad definition of "ex player".
  - jedberg 6y ago
    Well, only 1/3 of them played Pro before going into coaching. The rest were college players (and two only played in High School) who switched to coaching, mostly because they didn't get drafted.
  - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
    Yes but most ex-players are not football managers.
  - brummm 6y ago
    Just for fun, I checked for the German football league. I think more than 3/4 were professional football players before becoming coaches.
- tremon 6y ago
  No pro athlete retires from competing because they can make more money as a coach.
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
There are other paths at Google than upgrading to mgmt, but all of them involve "cross-team collaboration" and other quasi-political (with a small-p) aspects. Actually just writing code at Google is, from my experience, a small part of the job and not rewarded. The faster you get out of writing code and get into designing and delegating it, the better you're off. Sucks if you don't like it. Coming up with a way to reward and improve nose to the grindstone technical contribution seems to me key to having an effective organization. EDIT: also consider, doing management or team lead at a company like Google is so different from, say, a small company, that the trajectory may make no sense for somebody. Before I came to Google I felt myself on a career track that was team-lead/architect focused, mgmt interest, etc. Once I got there, that evaporated. I just couldn't imagine myself doing that kind of work in this large of a company.
- mcguire 6y ago
  Over the course of a number of years and a few jobs at IBM starting in the early 90s, I knew 2 people on their "technical track". Their jobs involved huge numbers of airline miles, continual meetings, and essentially no technical work. That was one of the primary reasons I stayed a contractor most of my career.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Interesting that your contractor jobs haven't also filled with non-technical, biz type work? Lack of desire to deal with accounting, client meetings, all the organizational aspects of running a business have kept me away from contracting or consulting. Might be time for me to revisit that, this being the year when I really think I need to start something new. I have no idea how to make that switch though. Are you contracting through your own business, or someone else's?
    - 8ytecoder 6y ago
      If it's anything like my experience hiring contractors, it's definitely that they get the most "fun" part of the work. Most companies use contractors (in engineering) precisely for a well-defined tech work. They don't have to manage people or sit in meetings that are not relevant. We pay them by the hour and we try to get them to work on the stuff they can contribute the most - dealing with politics is expensive.
jayd16 6y ago
In my mind its not that far fetched, depending on the person. The transition from experienced dev, to mentor to leadership doesn't seem all that unnatural. Not everyone wants that though.
worik 6y ago
Best manager I ever had was a engineer.
bjornsing 6y ago
That’s a really weird analogy... Writing software (in any reasonably challenging context) is not administrative grunt work with clear and easy definitions of right and wrong. It’s an art and a science. So I much prefer the comparison with pro athletes who become coaches or actors who become directors.
randomdata 6y ago
The only difference between a manager and the other on-the-ground engineers is that the manager works more closely with the stakeholders to understand their requirements in more detail than the other engineers have time to. With that additional knowledge in hand, the manager helps guide the other engineers to make the right tradeoffs. It is still engineering, just at a different level. A level not everyone enjoys working at, granted. I guess if there is an accounting analogy, it would be selecting one accountant to work closely with the government to ensure that the tax law is fully understood and to watch the other accountants to ensure that they are following that tax law, reducing the inefficiencies of all the accountants in a firm needing to spend their days acquiring a perfect understanding of the tax law and not spending their days doing the practical accounting work.
watwut 6y ago
But also, the non technical managers I have seen were mostly toxic. And none of them were good - not even those who were decent people. It is not that all or most engineers would be good manager, but without that background you are guaranteed to not be good.

karmakaze 6y ago

It might be closer to a pro athlete retiring from playing and going into coaching, but not so many would be good in that role.

rileymat2 6y ago
This is interesting I did a bit of Googling, I guess it varies by sport quite a bit. https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/around-the-league-nfl/2014/08/24/Why-NFL-coaches-rarely-rise-from-ranks-of-players/stories/201408240108 https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/around-the-league-nfl/20... Some sports, most coaches came from players, but the NFL notably does not.
- bradstewart 6y ago
  I wonder if team size has anything to do with that. Football teams are much larger than those in other sports.
  - karmakaze 6y ago
    Also the division of roles is far more specialized than say basketball. Only the QB might have a near/full picture.
    - skrtskrt 6y ago
      Linebackers, as the captain of the defense, which requires a deep understanding of the offense as well, tend to end up coaching as well.
  - nkassis 6y ago
    Football team coaching staff are almost like another team. Position coaches usually are ex players of that position but as you move up the chain it gets more into strategic management and thus by the HC level it's more of a manager role with architects underneath for offense and defense so less position technical knowledge more game knowledge.
- mrfox321 6y ago
  I wonder if brain damage/CTE has something to do with it.
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  "Most coaches came fro players" is very different from "players are expected to become coaches". I can't think of any sport where players are expected to become coaches.
  - Alex3917 6y ago
    > I can't think of any sport where players are expected to become coaches. In amateur sports it's common. E.g. in rowing, cycling, fencing, cross country skiing, etc., people are generally expected to coach at some point. Albeit usually while they're doing the sport, and not necessarily as their primary careers.
    - phamilton 6y ago
      Yeah, but this might be closer to "actors are expected to wait tables". It has more to do with paying the bills than career advancement.
    - randomswede 6y ago
      To some extent, coaching something you practice is good for giving you another perspective on what it is you're practicing. In an ideal world, this will elevate your skill level. This does, however, not necessarily mean that everyone is a good coach, nor does it mean that everyone should stop practicing what they're doing and focus solely on coaching.
  - Leherenn 6y ago
    Football/soccer? Of course there are more players than coaches so they can't all become coaches, but I would say star players are expected to become coaches, and lots of them do.
  - rileymat2 6y ago
    Oh, I agree, due to it being a pyramid only a fraction could ever become head coaches, so that wording was a stand in for that effect.
- acheron 6y ago
  In baseball, coaches and managers are all ex-players, but not necessarily good ex-players. (Well, anyone who plays in MLB is “good”, but relative to the rest of the league I mean.) Just like in other industries, the skills required for a good coach or manager don’t always correlate with being the best player.
rjsw 6y ago
Almost all football managers are ex players.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- cambalache 6y ago
  Only for a very broad definition of "ex player".
- jedberg 6y ago
  Well, only 1/3 of them played Pro before going into coaching. The rest were college players (and two only played in High School) who switched to coaching, mostly because they didn't get drafted.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  Yes but most ex-players are not football managers.
- brummm 6y ago
  Just for fun, I checked for the German football league. I think more than 3/4 were professional football players before becoming coaches.
tremon 6y ago
No pro athlete retires from competing because they can make more money as a coach.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

There are other paths at Google than upgrading to mgmt, but all of them involve "cross-team collaboration" and other quasi-political (with a small-p) aspects. Actually just writing code at Google is, from my experience, a small part of the job and not rewarded. The faster you get out of writing code and get into designing and delegating it, the better you're off. Sucks if you don't like it. Coming up with a way to reward and improve nose to the grindstone technical contribution seems to me key to having an effective organization. EDIT: also consider, doing management or team lead at a company like Google is so different from, say, a small company, that the trajectory may make no sense for somebody. Before I came to Google I felt myself on a career track that was team-lead/architect focused, mgmt interest, etc. Once I got there, that evaporated. I just couldn't imagine myself doing that kind of work in this large of a company.

mcguire 6y ago
Over the course of a number of years and a few jobs at IBM starting in the early 90s, I knew 2 people on their "technical track". Their jobs involved huge numbers of airline miles, continual meetings, and essentially no technical work. That was one of the primary reasons I stayed a contractor most of my career.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Interesting that your contractor jobs haven't also filled with non-technical, biz type work? Lack of desire to deal with accounting, client meetings, all the organizational aspects of running a business have kept me away from contracting or consulting. Might be time for me to revisit that, this being the year when I really think I need to start something new. I have no idea how to make that switch though. Are you contracting through your own business, or someone else's?
  - 8ytecoder 6y ago
    If it's anything like my experience hiring contractors, it's definitely that they get the most "fun" part of the work. Most companies use contractors (in engineering) precisely for a well-defined tech work. They don't have to manage people or sit in meetings that are not relevant. We pay them by the hour and we try to get them to work on the stuff they can contribute the most - dealing with politics is expensive.

jayd16 6y ago

In my mind its not that far fetched, depending on the person. The transition from experienced dev, to mentor to leadership doesn't seem all that unnatural. Not everyone wants that though.

worik 6y ago

Best manager I ever had was a engineer.

bjornsing 6y ago

That’s a really weird analogy... Writing software (in any reasonably challenging context) is not administrative grunt work with clear and easy definitions of right and wrong. It’s an art and a science. So I much prefer the comparison with pro athletes who become coaches or actors who become directors.

randomdata 6y ago

The only difference between a manager and the other on-the-ground engineers is that the manager works more closely with the stakeholders to understand their requirements in more detail than the other engineers have time to. With that additional knowledge in hand, the manager helps guide the other engineers to make the right tradeoffs. It is still engineering, just at a different level. A level not everyone enjoys working at, granted. I guess if there is an accounting analogy, it would be selecting one accountant to work closely with the government to ensure that the tax law is fully understood and to watch the other accountants to ensure that they are following that tax law, reducing the inefficiencies of all the accountants in a firm needing to spend their days acquiring a perfect understanding of the tax law and not spending their days doing the practical accounting work.

watwut 6y ago

But also, the non technical managers I have seen were mostly toxic. And none of them were good - not even those who were decent people. It is not that all or most engineers would be good manager, but without that background you are guaranteed to not be good.