7 ms·

I wonder how much more they will prod me to move all my files to their servers/cloud. And then how many more times per week they will force me to shut down my

I wonder how much more they will prod me to move all my files to their servers/cloud. And then how many more times per week they will force me to shut down my computer and update it. Its almost like they are moving to PC as a service. I anticipate ill be moving to Linux pretty soon.

boxmonster 6y ago
I'm in the Windows 10 beta program. I don't even think much about the 2 times a month I'm asked to restart my machine.
- trident5000 6y ago
  I run programs that cannot afford for windows to tell me I need to shut my computer down especially within certain hours of the day. I'm usually ok but they should set the automatic updates to default but give users some sort of option. AaronFriel you can only pause for a few weeks and you need to keep doing that in perpetuity. That said, its not so much impossible to work around, its just annoying and feels like an encroachment. If I want to run my PC as a server with near 100% uptime then just let me do it. moksly, an enterprise license is for 500+ employees and will have a cost to match that.
  - AaronFriel 6y ago
    You can pause updates.
    - Shared404 6y ago
      That's not enough. I had a client have a commercial CNC project screwed up because Windows decided it was done pausing, or didn't give them the obvious option. I wasn't onsite to pause it myself.
      - jgalt212 6y ago
        We were similarly almost bit in the @ass a few times during the lockdowns when no one was around to stop the Windows boxes from doing what they wanted, or were centrally commanded, to do. I don't recall if we found a workaround, or were able to get someone in the office to do the reboots.
        AaronFriel 6y ago
        Before I was a software engineer, I did freelance consulting and a lot of Windows system administration. Your statement about getting bit by Windows policies only spurs more questions on. What on earth is going on that you need someone physically present "to do the reboots", and why don't you have any remote administration tooling, and why are you using Windows client OS boxes, and... Should I send you my card, or use my (still active, I think) partner status to sell you some server or LTSC licenses? Put you in touch with a managed service provider? It seems to me no different than writing that you installed say, Ubuntu Desktop or MacOS in the office, set up your company's webapp or some critical software to start after user login, neglected to set up any remote administration software, and then when it reboots to install security updates it's the software's fault? There were a lot of ways things went wrong before the reboot.
      - EvanAnderson 6y ago
        Microsoft would argue that your CNC controller should be running Windows 10 LTSC or IoT. I have a Customer who conducts multi-day experiments sampling data from lab instruments connected to Windows 10-based PCs. Losing the results of an experiment wasn't acceptable, so they ponied-up for the more costly LTSC (at the time LTSB) version. Automatic reboots have been a non-issue. That one has to do this is galling. The availability of a product SKU to work around the "evergreen" nature of Windows 10 doesn't eliminate my distaste for it.
        PascLeRasc 6y ago
        Every time I hear about Windows 10 LTSC I look for a place to buy a key or download the ISO from Microsoft and I can’t find it. It seems like they don’t want to sell it.
  - moksly 6y ago
    You could always get an enterprise license and have complete control.
  - whatever1 6y ago
    Then you are using the wrong windows version. If you need complete control over updates for a machine that runs 24/7 you need the windows server edition.
    - trident5000 6y ago
      This is why I'm saying I'm close to just switching to Linux, which would be my next move. Not going to reward Microsoft with a new version purchase for making their OS a pain in the ass. Nowhere in the purchase documentation/advertising does it mention this differentiation unless its buried somewhere so I was unaware and I already made my purchase.
      - whatever1 6y ago
        Everyone has their priorities. In Linux you will have updates breaking dependencies, endless hours in configuration, lackluster hardware support and broken display scaling. I love Linux for a server box that I rarely touch but I would never use it for my day to day needs.
        trident5000 6y ago
        Good to know. Id experiment before a full shift.
olyjohn 6y ago
> Its almost like they are moving to PC as a service. One of the first things you see is "Windows 10 is a service" when you install it. That's always been it's premise since it was released. They aren't hiding that detail. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-quick-start https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/w...
- trident5000 6y ago
  I thought I'd get away with a common sense interpretation of what I'm getting at, but I should have known better.
  - BalinKing 6y ago
    I'm with the GP—I'm having trouble thinking of an alternative "common sense interpretation" other than e.g. "Windows as a service." Could you expand on what exactly you mean?
api 6y ago
The whole push in the industry is to move everything to cloud, because that delivers better lock-in. The cloud is un-defeatable DRM (as the software is not even local) plus control of your data.
- trident5000 6y ago
  Infuriating on so many levels: 1) creating the largest honeypot imaginable/single point of attack. 2) Potential trust issues as companies put proprietary data on servers that are not theirs 3) People storing deeply personal and sensitive data like photos on servers that are not theirs. 4) Forcing others data and work to be used for monetization without compensation. 5) Ultimately restricting innovation as people have less ability to build locally if they really take this direction to the max.
  - moksly 6y ago
    Yet you’re here on a social network where nothing you write is hosted or owned by you?
    - trident5000 6y ago
      Do you actually believe deep down inside that this is a parallel comparison.
    - spacemanmatt 6y ago
      If this is a social network then I'm a militia!
- ako 6y ago
  Lock-in is not the only reason: on-prem/on-pc deployments are more expensive as they have to consider more scenarios. How you install it, what other software is running, what software you want to combine it with (e.g., what database you want to run). On-prem/on-pc is also harder to debug and support, and harder to keep customers on the latest release, so you have to maintain more releases. Overall cloud makes sense from a business perspective because it's cheaper and takes less effort, so you can dedicate your developers to add valueable features to your software instead of dealing with customer specific situations.
ucm_edge 6y ago
I've gotten to the point where whenever I setup a Windows machine, I tell it I have no internet connection, because that seems to be the only way to get it shut up about using a Microsoft Account to log in, configuring OneDrive, etc. Then once everything is setup I'll connect it to my home network. I recall years ago when I did my Windows 10 box they didn't push the Microsoft Account on you so hard during setup, but when doing newer laptops for family members that's clearly changed. I've basically demoted my Windows 10 box to headless status. If I want to do anything I either use Remote Desktop or Steam Streaming to access it. Interestingly OS X also has plenty of Cloud services, but Apple seems to have at least figured out how to sell them in a less intrusive manner while letting you feel like you're still in control of the machine. Just little things like you setup a local account and then Apple sells you on "Hey want to link your iCloud so you can remote wipe this machine if it is stolen?" vs forcing you to lie about internet connectivity so Windows 10 gives you the local account option.
- trident5000 6y ago
  That's clever. Now a Microsoft employee will read this and fix that little inconvenient bug ;) Agree with Apple except that we learned it constantly streams your activity to their servers now (things like when you open an app). Back to Microsoft - the smack in the face for me is that OneDrive/their servers is listed as the top choice when saving files in Office. You cannot remove it/demote it in any way even when disabling OneDrive as a connected service. Its more obnoxious/a direction I dont like that they are headed towards than a crippling thing I cant work around.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    > Now a Microsoft employee will read this and fix that little inconvenient bug ;) I like to think that Microsoft employees mostly realize how stupid stuff like this is, and intentionally leave loopholes like that until forced to "fix" it.
  - michaelhoffman 6y ago
    This is clearly a designed path.
shrimp_emoji 6y ago
I moved a few years ago. I toyed around with Linux before, but what pushed me over the edge is losing a bunch of work one day after Windows decided to reboot behind my back, when I locked the PC and walked away. I was like, "Lol, I don't control this computer, huh?" To my surprise (still), I've lived in Linux comfortably for years now. It's, hands down, a superior OS for programming (unless you're married to Visual Studio [the IDE, not Code]), but being able to live in it otherwise so well is still surprising, from gaming to interpolation on videos with mpv + SVP (which, pretty strangely, is free for Linux but costed me a subscription on Windows! https://www.svp-team.com/get/ https://www.svp-team.com/get/). FreeOffice (https://www.freeoffice.com/en/ https://www.freeoffice.com/en/) has a clone suite of Microsoft Office that works with all the formats (plus, Microsoft Office is on the web now, anyway, right?), and preferring roguelike and indie games (which are reliably native) over AAA games enough to make do with running the odd AAA on Proton when available has been key for me. If I was really into AAA games or doing audio editing or something, I'd probably've gone back and made do with WSL2. To save you time if you try switching, the best distro for a Windows refugee (or non-server, end user generally, in my strong opinion) is Manjaro with KDE. KDE's the most featureful, powerful, and Windows-like DE, and Manjaro's most Windows 10-like in that you're getting new updates all the time, indefinitely, which are pretty close to bleeding edge but held back for a margin of safety (as opposed to Ubuntu, where you're stuck with old stuff unless you mess with PPAs or install the new version of the OS every few years -- however, in edge cases like CUDA development, you might want to have older packages, since Ubuntu kind of dictates the pacing of outside development given its marketshare). It also benefits from the insanely-detailed Arch Wiki (since it's Arch-based) and has the AUR, which has every package ever, and it has GUI tools for kernel rollbacks and driver stuff, AND the Manjaro forums are amazingly helpful.
- spacemanmatt 6y ago
  I replaced my 2013 MBP with a System76 laptop in late 2019. No regrets whatsoever. I can boot the new machine into Windows if I really want to. It's been months since I left it at installed.
Exmoor 6y ago
I'll take the very non-HN stance here and say I really appreciate some of Microsoft's cloud integrations. Onedrive has occasional issues, but being able to save my documents, pictures, etc. to Onedrive instead of a local drive is constantly useful to me. Even more so for the non-technical members of my family. Using a Microsoft login instead of a local login has also been useful, especially at times when I've been running multiple computers (laptop, desktop, Media PC, etc.).
- trident5000 6y ago
  I have no issue with it as an option. I have an issue with Microsoft prodding me to make it my default. OneDrive is permanently listed ahead of my local files in Office for instance and you need to really put effort into disabling it from linking to your PC when you first set it up. Many non tech oriented people probably cant even figure out how to do that. Further, its really the direction that's concerning. Where will we be in the next 3 major releases.
  - Exmoor 6y ago
    That's a valid criticism I hadn't considered. My work PC, for instance, is barred from using Onedrive for security reasons, but it still has icon. Same with the Windows Store app. Agreed that they could/should make it easier to remove/hide.
    - eropple 6y ago
      You can uninstall OneDrive (it's not a Windows component, it's in Add/Remove Programs) and it'll go away from File Explorer.
- jasonjayr 6y ago
  How is it useful with multiple computers?
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    One account so password changes are synced, things like network profiles/wifi passwords or certain Windows settings sync, clipboard can sync, Microsoft apps inherit the system login. Probably some other stuff I haven't noticed since I last looked at it. I use local myself but I think its decently useful stuff to most people.
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
> Its almost like they are moving to PC as a service. I'd love that offering in a slightly different sense. I do most of my personal compute intensive work on AWS these days. If I am processing a bunch of old files into a different format, or archiving old photos, I might spin up a many cored instance and parallalize it to turn a day's processing into an hour (mostly the code, and a few minutes of compute). And I store old junk in AWS for at least an order of magnitude less than dropbox or google drive can get me. I had a personal project where the naive thing to do involved a massive matrix multiply, so I saved myself a ton of time by spinning up a machine with half a terabyte of RAM and did it naively, saving myself an enormous amount of time trying to do something clever. At this point, for my own machine, I'd love something that amounts to a big battery with a wifi connection (and maybe a teeny tiny cpu somewhere in it). For workloads that can be done over SSH, it's all I need. If the rest of my needs could be met that way, I'd love it. It would be great to just have a remote desktop I can spin up in AWS, changing the size and specs as I want. Basically stadio/geforce now for everything. I expect as internet becomes more reliable, this will be a thing. Sadly, instead of being able to install windows or OS X on an EC2 instance with an image that I can pass around wherever, moving to GCP or nvidia whenever I decide to, it'll probably be a locked down offering like some services we are starting to see today :(
larrik 6y ago
And then you DO put your files in the cloud, and they scan them and ban you because they don't like your files. (Note, this actually happened a while back)

boxmonster 6y ago

I'm in the Windows 10 beta program. I don't even think much about the 2 times a month I'm asked to restart my machine.

trident5000 6y ago
I run programs that cannot afford for windows to tell me I need to shut my computer down especially within certain hours of the day. I'm usually ok but they should set the automatic updates to default but give users some sort of option. AaronFriel you can only pause for a few weeks and you need to keep doing that in perpetuity. That said, its not so much impossible to work around, its just annoying and feels like an encroachment. If I want to run my PC as a server with near 100% uptime then just let me do it. moksly, an enterprise license is for 500+ employees and will have a cost to match that.
- AaronFriel 6y ago
  You can pause updates.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    That's not enough. I had a client have a commercial CNC project screwed up because Windows decided it was done pausing, or didn't give them the obvious option. I wasn't onsite to pause it myself.
    - jgalt212 6y ago
      We were similarly almost bit in the @ass a few times during the lockdowns when no one was around to stop the Windows boxes from doing what they wanted, or were centrally commanded, to do. I don't recall if we found a workaround, or were able to get someone in the office to do the reboots.
      - AaronFriel 6y ago
        Before I was a software engineer, I did freelance consulting and a lot of Windows system administration. Your statement about getting bit by Windows policies only spurs more questions on. What on earth is going on that you need someone physically present "to do the reboots", and why don't you have any remote administration tooling, and why are you using Windows client OS boxes, and... Should I send you my card, or use my (still active, I think) partner status to sell you some server or LTSC licenses? Put you in touch with a managed service provider? It seems to me no different than writing that you installed say, Ubuntu Desktop or MacOS in the office, set up your company's webapp or some critical software to start after user login, neglected to set up any remote administration software, and then when it reboots to install security updates it's the software's fault? There were a lot of ways things went wrong before the reboot.
    - EvanAnderson 6y ago
      Microsoft would argue that your CNC controller should be running Windows 10 LTSC or IoT. I have a Customer who conducts multi-day experiments sampling data from lab instruments connected to Windows 10-based PCs. Losing the results of an experiment wasn't acceptable, so they ponied-up for the more costly LTSC (at the time LTSB) version. Automatic reboots have been a non-issue. That one has to do this is galling. The availability of a product SKU to work around the "evergreen" nature of Windows 10 doesn't eliminate my distaste for it.
      - PascLeRasc 6y ago
        Every time I hear about Windows 10 LTSC I look for a place to buy a key or download the ISO from Microsoft and I can’t find it. It seems like they don’t want to sell it.
- moksly 6y ago
  You could always get an enterprise license and have complete control.
- whatever1 6y ago
  Then you are using the wrong windows version. If you need complete control over updates for a machine that runs 24/7 you need the windows server edition.
  - trident5000 6y ago
    This is why I'm saying I'm close to just switching to Linux, which would be my next move. Not going to reward Microsoft with a new version purchase for making their OS a pain in the ass. Nowhere in the purchase documentation/advertising does it mention this differentiation unless its buried somewhere so I was unaware and I already made my purchase.
    - whatever1 6y ago
      Everyone has their priorities. In Linux you will have updates breaking dependencies, endless hours in configuration, lackluster hardware support and broken display scaling. I love Linux for a server box that I rarely touch but I would never use it for my day to day needs.
      - trident5000 6y ago
        Good to know. Id experiment before a full shift.

olyjohn 6y ago

> Its almost like they are moving to PC as a service. One of the first things you see is "Windows 10 is a service" when you install it. That's always been it's premise since it was released. They aren't hiding that detail. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-quick-start https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/w...

trident5000 6y ago
I thought I'd get away with a common sense interpretation of what I'm getting at, but I should have known better.
- BalinKing 6y ago
  I'm with the GP—I'm having trouble thinking of an alternative "common sense interpretation" other than e.g. "Windows as a service." Could you expand on what exactly you mean?

api 6y ago

The whole push in the industry is to move everything to cloud, because that delivers better lock-in. The cloud is un-defeatable DRM (as the software is not even local) plus control of your data.

trident5000 6y ago
Infuriating on so many levels: 1) creating the largest honeypot imaginable/single point of attack. 2) Potential trust issues as companies put proprietary data on servers that are not theirs 3) People storing deeply personal and sensitive data like photos on servers that are not theirs. 4) Forcing others data and work to be used for monetization without compensation. 5) Ultimately restricting innovation as people have less ability to build locally if they really take this direction to the max.
- moksly 6y ago
  Yet you’re here on a social network where nothing you write is hosted or owned by you?
  - trident5000 6y ago
    Do you actually believe deep down inside that this is a parallel comparison.
  - spacemanmatt 6y ago
    If this is a social network then I'm a militia!
ako 6y ago
Lock-in is not the only reason: on-prem/on-pc deployments are more expensive as they have to consider more scenarios. How you install it, what other software is running, what software you want to combine it with (e.g., what database you want to run). On-prem/on-pc is also harder to debug and support, and harder to keep customers on the latest release, so you have to maintain more releases. Overall cloud makes sense from a business perspective because it's cheaper and takes less effort, so you can dedicate your developers to add valueable features to your software instead of dealing with customer specific situations.

ucm_edge 6y ago

I've gotten to the point where whenever I setup a Windows machine, I tell it I have no internet connection, because that seems to be the only way to get it shut up about using a Microsoft Account to log in, configuring OneDrive, etc. Then once everything is setup I'll connect it to my home network. I recall years ago when I did my Windows 10 box they didn't push the Microsoft Account on you so hard during setup, but when doing newer laptops for family members that's clearly changed. I've basically demoted my Windows 10 box to headless status. If I want to do anything I either use Remote Desktop or Steam Streaming to access it. Interestingly OS X also has plenty of Cloud services, but Apple seems to have at least figured out how to sell them in a less intrusive manner while letting you feel like you're still in control of the machine. Just little things like you setup a local account and then Apple sells you on "Hey want to link your iCloud so you can remote wipe this machine if it is stolen?" vs forcing you to lie about internet connectivity so Windows 10 gives you the local account option.

trident5000 6y ago
That's clever. Now a Microsoft employee will read this and fix that little inconvenient bug ;) Agree with Apple except that we learned it constantly streams your activity to their servers now (things like when you open an app). Back to Microsoft - the smack in the face for me is that OneDrive/their servers is listed as the top choice when saving files in Office. You cannot remove it/demote it in any way even when disabling OneDrive as a connected service. Its more obnoxious/a direction I dont like that they are headed towards than a crippling thing I cant work around.
- Shared404 6y ago
  > Now a Microsoft employee will read this and fix that little inconvenient bug ;) I like to think that Microsoft employees mostly realize how stupid stuff like this is, and intentionally leave loopholes like that until forced to "fix" it.
- michaelhoffman 6y ago
  This is clearly a designed path.

shrimp_emoji 6y ago

I moved a few years ago. I toyed around with Linux before, but what pushed me over the edge is losing a bunch of work one day after Windows decided to reboot behind my back, when I locked the PC and walked away. I was like, "Lol, I don't control this computer, huh?" To my surprise (still), I've lived in Linux comfortably for years now. It's, hands down, a superior OS for programming (unless you're married to Visual Studio [the IDE, not Code]), but being able to live in it otherwise so well is still surprising, from gaming to interpolation on videos with mpv + SVP (which, pretty strangely, is free for Linux but costed me a subscription on Windows! https://www.svp-team.com/get/ https://www.svp-team.com/get/). FreeOffice (https://www.freeoffice.com/en/ https://www.freeoffice.com/en/) has a clone suite of Microsoft Office that works with all the formats (plus, Microsoft Office is on the web now, anyway, right?), and preferring roguelike and indie games (which are reliably native) over AAA games enough to make do with running the odd AAA on Proton when available has been key for me. If I was really into AAA games or doing audio editing or something, I'd probably've gone back and made do with WSL2. To save you time if you try switching, the best distro for a Windows refugee (or non-server, end user generally, in my strong opinion) is Manjaro with KDE. KDE's the most featureful, powerful, and Windows-like DE, and Manjaro's most Windows 10-like in that you're getting new updates all the time, indefinitely, which are pretty close to bleeding edge but held back for a margin of safety (as opposed to Ubuntu, where you're stuck with old stuff unless you mess with PPAs or install the new version of the OS every few years -- however, in edge cases like CUDA development, you might want to have older packages, since Ubuntu kind of dictates the pacing of outside development given its marketshare). It also benefits from the insanely-detailed Arch Wiki (since it's Arch-based) and has the AUR, which has every package ever, and it has GUI tools for kernel rollbacks and driver stuff, AND the Manjaro forums are amazingly helpful.

spacemanmatt 6y ago
I replaced my 2013 MBP with a System76 laptop in late 2019. No regrets whatsoever. I can boot the new machine into Windows if I really want to. It's been months since I left it at installed.

Exmoor 6y ago

I'll take the very non-HN stance here and say I really appreciate some of Microsoft's cloud integrations. Onedrive has occasional issues, but being able to save my documents, pictures, etc. to Onedrive instead of a local drive is constantly useful to me. Even more so for the non-technical members of my family. Using a Microsoft login instead of a local login has also been useful, especially at times when I've been running multiple computers (laptop, desktop, Media PC, etc.).

trident5000 6y ago
I have no issue with it as an option. I have an issue with Microsoft prodding me to make it my default. OneDrive is permanently listed ahead of my local files in Office for instance and you need to really put effort into disabling it from linking to your PC when you first set it up. Many non tech oriented people probably cant even figure out how to do that. Further, its really the direction that's concerning. Where will we be in the next 3 major releases.
- Exmoor 6y ago
  That's a valid criticism I hadn't considered. My work PC, for instance, is barred from using Onedrive for security reasons, but it still has icon. Same with the Windows Store app. Agreed that they could/should make it easier to remove/hide.
  - eropple 6y ago
    You can uninstall OneDrive (it's not a Windows component, it's in Add/Remove Programs) and it'll go away from File Explorer.
jasonjayr 6y ago
How is it useful with multiple computers?
- zamadatix 6y ago
  One account so password changes are synced, things like network profiles/wifi passwords or certain Windows settings sync, clipboard can sync, Microsoft apps inherit the system login. Probably some other stuff I haven't noticed since I last looked at it. I use local myself but I think its decently useful stuff to most people.

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

> Its almost like they are moving to PC as a service. I'd love that offering in a slightly different sense. I do most of my personal compute intensive work on AWS these days. If I am processing a bunch of old files into a different format, or archiving old photos, I might spin up a many cored instance and parallalize it to turn a day's processing into an hour (mostly the code, and a few minutes of compute). And I store old junk in AWS for at least an order of magnitude less than dropbox or google drive can get me. I had a personal project where the naive thing to do involved a massive matrix multiply, so I saved myself a ton of time by spinning up a machine with half a terabyte of RAM and did it naively, saving myself an enormous amount of time trying to do something clever. At this point, for my own machine, I'd love something that amounts to a big battery with a wifi connection (and maybe a teeny tiny cpu somewhere in it). For workloads that can be done over SSH, it's all I need. If the rest of my needs could be met that way, I'd love it. It would be great to just have a remote desktop I can spin up in AWS, changing the size and specs as I want. Basically stadio/geforce now for everything. I expect as internet becomes more reliable, this will be a thing. Sadly, instead of being able to install windows or OS X on an EC2 instance with an image that I can pass around wherever, moving to GCP or nvidia whenever I decide to, it'll probably be a locked down offering like some services we are starting to see today :(

larrik 6y ago

And then you DO put your files in the cloud, and they scan them and ban you because they don't like your files. (Note, this actually happened a while back)