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The timing is amusing. There's currently a lot of criticism towards China for arresting journalists investigating controversial topics. At the same time, the
by WhyNotHugo 6y ago
The timing is amusing.
There's currently a lot of criticism towards China for arresting journalists investigating controversial topics.
At the same time, the US is doing literally the same thing, little to no backlash.
- ketamine__ 6y agoIt's hardly comparable unless you believe that anything a journalist discovers through illegal means is publishable.
- pizza234 6y agoJournalists are arrested in China on legal grounds as well. Such laws are arguable/unjust from a typically western perspective, but are formally legal nonetheless. The question is therefore not legality in itself, but whether the (US) laws themselves are sensible and/or egalitarian. It's implied by the OP that they aren't (and I personally agree).
- ketamine__ 6y agoJournalists are arrested in China purely because they criticize the government. Can you provide a case in China where a journalist stole troves of information and published it?
- che_shirecat 6y agoThey are arrested in China because certain journalistic actions are illegal under Chinese law, under the (given) justification (stated or unstated) that it destabilizes civil society. For example, in the case of HK, journalists are prosecuted under Article 38 of the National Security law. That's the whole point of GP's post - legality by itself has no prima facie moral weight, an observation that applies also to whatever US laws the fed gov. is charging Assange of violating. Here's the wording of the HK-specific law: "The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organisations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organisations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organisations or bodies."
- mLuby 6y agoIf it's illegal to know a thing ("it's classified") then you're kind of stuck, right? Governments hold a monopoly on Force, not a monopoly on Truth.
- ketamine__ 6y agoIs it important for the public to know the exact coordinates of troop movement in Syria? No, but the journalist can say there are troops operating in eastern Syria. A journalist without many scruples like Assange would publish the coordinates.
- h_anna_h 6y agoYou seem to be implying that it would be immoral for Assange to publish such a thing but don't justify it.
- ketamine__ 6y agoIt is immoral but do you think that is something Assange cares about?
- h_anna_h 6y agoIt is debatable that "It is immoral". Me and clearly Assange disagree with you about it.
- ketamine__ 6y agoGiving terrorists the tools to kill US troops is morally ambiguous?
- h_anna_h 6y agoNice way of phrasing it. Guess inventing cars gave the tools to the terrorists to kill people by driving into them.
- boibombeiro 6y agoI think this changes from country to country. For instance, Gleen Greenwald published illegally obtained conversation in Brazil and had any investigation on how he obtained the data suspended by supreme court. Later was found out that his source was a politician that had interest in the leak, and she also claimed was doing "jornalism work" to avoid legal repercussions. As long you claim to be journalist you have carte blanche. Not sure if this would play the same in America.
- dougmwne 6y agoNothing ever happens in the USA without internal criticism. It is a cacophony of political discourse. Comparing us to China, "literally", is so off base that it makes your post look in bad faith.
- pulse7 6y agoWe know there is "freedom of speech" in the US and that there is no such thing in China. But with Assange, the US "freedom of speech" is diverging to the China's "no freedom of speech". Maybe the "internal criticism" you mentioned will follow soon...
- tdhz77 6y agoNot likely
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- dougmwne 6y agoSuggesting that the USA will soon adopt China's approach to censorship of public discourse is basically preposterous. Our public discourse is not some extravagance that our government allows us. It is the core of our system and has been from the moment of the country's founding in reaction to hereditary monarchy. The government's right to rule flows out of this conversation. If the conversation stops, the country will cease to be. So while I think you are quite wrong about the current risk, we are in complete agreement that freedom of speech should be vigilantly protected.
- dkdk8283 6y agoWe are already on our way to full blown censorship. Cancel culture et al is effectively the beginning of the same outcome. Censorship starts with chilling effects
- 6y ago
- nafizh 6y agoComing from a third world country, whenever I see someone contrasting human rights abuses of US and China, I instantly realize the person was born and bred in the west, and does not have a meaningful realization of the level of depravity that can exist. Not saying US doesn't have his problems, it has plenty. But comparing to China is, at risk of being flippant, laughable.
- lhorie 6y agoI read it as a commentary on where the US could hypothetically end up if one just lets morals to erode slowly without bounds. Obviously comparing in terms of absolute metrics is not going to be very similar since US and China are very different countries, but at the same time, if the hypothetical came to pass, it wouldn't be the first time in history that a "modern", "powerful" country fell into ruin.
- dkdk8283 6y agoAs someone who is from the west every time I mention the potential depravity of China it’s met with denial or question - even sometimes here.
- samirillian 6y ago> coming from a third world country Is it possible you also view the US with a certain rosey bias? Check out any of a bunch of major metrics, like murder, infant mortality, homelessness, healthcare, police brutality, and it must be said Covid mortality. Visit the south side of Chicago. If all you can say is "at least it is better than China, a third world country," then you aren't saying much, and in plenty of cases it actually isn't true.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago> Coming from a third world country, whenever I see someone contrasting human rights abuses of US and China, I instantly realize the person was born and bred in the west, and does not have a meaningful realization of the level of depravity that can exist. The purpose of these comparisons is to identify the similarity to the behavior of a country known to be worse. "China is worse." Yes, that's the point. We don't want to be like them, so we have to stop being like them.
- ekianjo 6y ago> the US is doing literally the same thing The same thing, really? Like picking organs on political opponents in prisons? I didn't know the US was doing that.
- dimitrios1 6y agoAssange is responsible for compromising US Diplomatic relations, placing diplomats and, along with Snowden, informants in actual real life danger, and breaking countless US and international laws. To compare the two is laughable. (aside: This single side of this issue is overrepresented here and in tech circles in general. Talk to an FBI agent or a diplomat sometime that was working on key issues to hear their takes to at least balance the perspective.)
- Shivetya 6y agowell compared to the previous Administration this one did not arrest any journalist nor set the IRS upon them. Now this dog did bark a lot.
- curation 6y agoAgreed. I would add to this, after reading through the comments, that there is a naive idea of how a civilization or order works. The question is not whether or not we are worse in the west than China, but why we need the supplement of China to maintain the coherence of our order. If we are in fact reacting to timing and criticism to China, how come, as superpower, the US even compares itself in any way? In what ways do we create China/Russia/X as enemy to crisis manage the collapse in the belief of the goodness in the West? The current line of thought across all platforms about China ask questions that guarantee no answers save for reactions and war.
- code4tee 6y agoThis comes up every time Assange comes up. He’s not being prosecuted for being a journalist. The US has very strong protections for journalism that stand up to just about anywhere—-and honestly look great compared to things that have happened in the UK. Assange is charged with actively working to steal classified information. There’s a huge difference between A) someone gets classified information through nefarious means and shares that with a journalist, and B) “journalist” actively works to steal said classified documents. This case is about “B” not “A” but yet we keep seeing people trying to make the argument that this is some sort of attack on journalism. That’s a gross misrepresentation of the basic facts in this case.
- stonogo 6y agoAsk Jack Ma about this false equivalence. The US is attempting to extradite someone for trial, not trying to harvest his organs.
- seanmcdirmid 6y agoI think this is different. China just sends their people to other countries to abduct people whose speech they don't agree with (e.g. how they got that Swedish citizen in Thailand). The USA actually has to go through a legal process.