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China: The Disappearing Millionaires (2019) [video]

240 points by aminozuur 6y ago

hhkb 6y ago
May not be a popular opinion, but Jack Ma owes his entire success to the CCP for creating the single most effective moat.
libertine 6y ago
The first time I heard this story from him some years ago I tried not to fall into the conspiracy theory trap, because of assassinations in foreign countries disguised as suicides it's a "classic setup", so I simply decided to watch one of his predictions: keep an eye on Jack Ma. The result was quite scary, Jack indeed started to fade away, first by suddenly parting from Alibaba, diluting his position, then he stopped showing in international media (which he was relatively active, since he was a reference in china entrepreneurship), and now he vanishes. Basically these individuals grow with the hand of the CCP on their back, and when it's time to collect they are stripped off and put on tight leash, and at any moment they can easily be muffled. Why do the major trade blocks ignore these actions? USA, EU... Edit: the predictions I'm talking about are from this youtube interview, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJK_5qDraM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJK_5qDraM , which bare in mind it's still a biased source.
- klik99 6y ago
  I still feel it’s a conspiracy theory but Jack Ma is absolutely being targeted. He was beloved by the Chinese media as a motivational speaker as well as a business man, when he started not speaking highly of CCP (which is tantamount to criticizing) I told my wife that in a year he would be vilified by the media, and sure enough here we are at the first stages of that. This might be happening on a case by case basis with those who don’t want to “play ball”, but I don’t believe there is a concerted effort to bring down all billionaires. Reminds me of the rise of the middle class in Europe as they threatened the existing power structure. Sometimes it feels China is going through the same stages of history Europe went through over centuries but at breakneck speed.
  - antibuddy 6y ago
    It is in fact a conspiracy theory. But a small reminder that conspiracy theory doesn't tell you anything about the truthfulness, e.g. that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. That being said: Your explanation makes more sense to me. It is often enough to anger the wrong person to get a bad treatment (well, even assassination). And looking at history this is exponentiated in dictatorships, where power is concentrated on few ppl, who can act with impunity.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      > that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. To be fair though, that never was much of a conspiracy. Maybe in the United States it was but in the rest of the world I don't think people believe the WMD story, rather, we believed the UN weapons inspectors' story.
      - elindbe3 6y ago
        A poorly executed conspiracy is still a conspiracy.
        jacquesm 6y ago
        No, it was simply a lie. And one that should have fallen completely flat. My respect for Colin Powell went through the floor that day.
        MichaelZuo 6y ago
        The word ‘conspiracy’ itself has a legal, original, meaning entirely different from the popular meaning. I find all good discussions involving this clarify what meaning is intended.
        vmception 6y ago
        I resort to just saying the definition of words, in a sentence, instead of the word itself. I've told and convinced plenty of anti-vaxxers about the magical secret way our body naturally produces antibodies if we expose our body to dead versions of a virus (or, now, things shaped like that virus). They like magic, secrets and nature, they do not like the word vaccine. I do the same with the word conspiracy, "That is a secret plan by a group to do something harmful". It rolls off the tongue.
- xwdv 6y ago
  God damn, they killed Jack Ma?
  - libertine 6y ago
    Jack Ma is missing since October. No one knows what happened to him, in my opinion I doubt they killed him simply because he was in China. What's the point of killing him there? They can simply remove him from the picture.
    - paganel 6y ago
      > Jack Ma is missing since October. Recent article on this [1], because I must admit that for me also this was a tough thing to believe. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-suspected-missing-2021-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-susp...
      - pankajdoharey 6y ago
        Although i think it will reflect poorly on CCP to secretly make Jack go missing, who is actually a world famous personality at this point. One should also remember that anything is possible in a totalitarian regime.
        libertine 6y ago
        Will it though? You live in the time where there's massive outrage for one week, but the next week that's the subject of the past that lost hype and momentum so it's forgotten. I think the CCP knows this, hell even political leaders of the free world know this - no one resigns due to scandals anymore. They just sit tight, don't acknowledge it, and it blows over.
        pankajdoharey 6y ago
        That is true, but Jack isnt any ordinary Billionaire, this would affect Chinese businesses.
- tchalla 6y ago
  The major trade blocks ignore these actions because they profit from it. Once they won’t, we will see “democracy values” based moral statements and arguments.
  - libertine 6y ago
    But does it make sense in the long term? I don't see it honestly... it's not just democracy values, it ranges from that to things like hacking/IP theft. It's a massive loss. Also, if we're at the point where "democracy values" are stumped by short term profits then maybe we deserve all of this.
    - Siira 6y ago
      The Western political institutions have short-term incentives for their constituents.
      - esarbe 6y ago
        That's an unfortunate drawback of a constituency trained to prioritize short-term goals. I wonder if it's possible to change this and have a 'wise' constituency that is able to do a more long-term prioritization.
- ianai 6y ago
  What can the trade blocks do? Sanctions would be tantamount to what was seen at the start of the pandemic. Basically cutting your local economy off from the world’s manufacturing. War would be even more extreme. There’s 1.3 billion Chinese. Their government is capable of being infinitely more organized and long thinking than just about all the others. Maybe a world war could curb the inevitable sans nuclear weapons. With nuclear weapons... Perhaps if the smaller trade blocs all rejected vehemently China along with the major it’d be a stronger position. Say in reaction to such actions. The large trade parties could help this by investing with infrastructure and other such programs in those countries. Possibly hoping for the Chinese people to change their form of government from within is the “nicest” option.
  - ianai 6y ago
    Basically, you've got to reproduce the factors within China making them such strong trading partners outside of them in a way they cannot diminish unilaterally. This could be done with political will or reproduction of their capacity. Personally, I wonder whether a UBI in a developed country could work to essentially lower their external 'trading costs'. Try to change their thought processes at the margin. i.e. Make the local goods and services out compete the foreign goods/services through moving local costs not observed in foreign goods/services to localized costs. i.e. Maybe a person making a UBI would be willing to do a job for (X+U) - where (X+U) is their reservation price, X is the foreign price, and U the UBI. Edit-flipped signs
  - BunsanSpace 6y ago
    The long thinking aspect of the Chinese government is Chinese propaganda. You see them announcing long term goals and going on giant infrastructure projects, which go on to be under used, poorly built e&. China has serious structural issues that the CCP is trying to hide. Massive food, drug and alcohol fraud hurting people (fake alcohol is a HUGE issue). Riots, mass stabbings/attacks, economic slowdown/hardship. All of which the CCP covers up because foreign media can't easily penetrate, and the CCP control the domestic media/narrative. China is a house of lies, they're essentially trying to fake it until they make it.
    - 6y ago
- GrantZvolsky 6y ago
  Let's not jump to conclusions with Jack Ma. It could all be explained by an illness.
- memetherapy 6y ago
  Because there is little to no benefit to the EU or USA to challenging the CCP, be it because of their treatment of a few billionaires or millions of Uighers. Unlike the Soviet Union China doesn't represent an existential threat to the USA or EU, largely as a matter of geography. The promotion of human rights, liberal democracy, the rule of law etc. has always been fairly low on the priority list of most western states in actuality and has usually played second fiddle to national interests.
  - starfallg 6y ago
    >Unlike the Soviet Union China doesn't represent an existential threat to the USA or EU, largely as a matter of geography. That is categorically untrue. The model of government and economic success of China is the biggest existential threat to western hegemony, much bigger than the USSR. China is well in the process of building a strong military with greater capabilities than Russia and once this is complete, the world order will undoubtedly change unless something is done about it now. The only reason we don't see more noise on this is because a lot of people depend on trade with China for their wealth, which was never the case during the cold war with the USSR. The state department was fully aware of the Chinese threat, hence why the TPP was proposed as a measure of containment. Too bad that play was ruined and replaced with ineffective populist measures that sound good on AM radio and internet forums, but are actually counterproductive in practice.
    - tlear 6y ago
      USSR controlled half of Europe and had enough ground forces on hand to bust through Germany and be in France in a week(without nukes being involved). PRC is nowhere close. It is a threat to Japan, India, Russia, Vietnam etc to US and Europe not so much
      - arcticfox 6y ago
        I don't understand that perspective - large ground armies haven't been relevant to superpower conflicts since pre-Cold War. Force projection, like the US has been able to do for 30 years, is relevant and when China ramps up in that regard there's no telling how things will change. IMO China doesn't even need to bother much with military advancement to become a massive threat to Western democracies though, as they can simply continue to build their economic engine and leverage it whenever necessary. They are already doing so to great effect against multinational corporations.
- varjag 6y ago
  The Little Red Checkbook
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Speculations such as these should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Consider that: * Jack Ma is himself a CCP member. * Before regulators stopped Ant's IPO, people were worrying about how Ant is a CCP ploy to take over the world, and a national security threat. Speculations about China have a tendency to view everything through the "CCP is evil and the only thing that's constantly on their minds is how to kill/jail/invade more" lens. As if all behavior in China is solely attributable to the CCP. This lens distorts things so much that a lot of the time you end up with nonsense.
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    Have you lived in China? CCP membership means nothing. There are dozens, if not hundreds of government officials and corporate identities in prison (or worse, executed) who were party members. Global perceptions about Ant Financial are completely irrelevant to Jack Ma. This is all internal politics. Anyone who poses a potential threat to the party (read: Xi Jinping) is liable to disappear (even if only temporarily).
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      > CCP membership means nothing. I know. But that's not the point. Not that long ago people were speculating all over the place that Jack Ma's CCP membership means that Ant is a wholly state-controlled company and a national security threat. The 180 degree turn of all the comments, shows that at the end of the day, people don't actually know anything about China, and therefore we should be critical of speculations.
      - someperson 6y ago
        Regardless of Jack Ma's CCP membership, any major firm in China has close ties to the government at every level of the organization (including the officially embedded Chinese Communist Party cell). The recent Jack Ma + Ant kerfuffle started after he gave a public speech that was mildly critical of the CCP's financial regulation. He probably should have known better given the current political environment in China, but alas.
- bserge 6y ago
  It's all very interesting. I'd say the CCP is the most powerful group in the world right now. That they can control billionaires like that is impressive and scary. I have to admit, a one party system does seem like the best type of government, on paper. It can be more efficient and do things much faster than anything else. Billionaires can't just pay politicians to create/modify laws in their favour. And for the average citizen, life's the same as in a democracy. But that only works if the party is working for the country, gives people a decent amount of freedom and listens to their needs. When the party no longer keeps the people content (which seems inevitable, looking at history), there's practically no way to change it besides a violent revolution. That's a huge drawback, and the reason we're better off with a slower democratic system that doesn't have a single point of (catastrophic) failure. Modern China seems to work a lot like Imperial China. Just with different names for the emperor and his officials, more freedom and rights for the population, as well as more means to keep them in check.
  - whoevercares 6y ago
    It’s a zero or one game for China —- they can make 10000 right decisions but the system could collapse with one, just one wrong decision. It’s not fault tolerant as the democracy system
    - squiggleblaz 6y ago
      Which single wrong decision is going to collapse China? Their administration have made wrong decisions before — unless you subscribe to some outlandish conspiracy theory. It seems far more likely that if they collapse, it will be as a consequence of a series of wrong decisions, in a completely boring way. The straw that breaks the camel's back will be the same as all the straws before it, except that everyone will analyse it to death considering the camel could hold thousands of other very similar straws, just not this one.
      - whoevercares 6y ago
        What I meant is high level strategic decisions. Example like cultural revolution. It’s really a single decision from one dictator and get carried out super efficiently. If you are Chinese, you’ll probably understand what I meant how single decisions could collapse China without even my explanation. China is strange, critical policies like cultural revolution and Deng’s decision to open the country was really very short and succinct words on paper
- cheph 6y ago
  > Why do the major trade blocks ignore these actions? USA, EU... Careful now ... I know of several people who were banned from HN for being critical of China ... EDIT: I suspect this post will be gone soon.
  - dang 6y ago
    Who and when? If you're going make a grand claim like that, you should supply links so readers can make up their minds for themselves. HN is full of criticisms of China on any thread that touches even tangentially on China. We don't ban users for that. We ban users who repeatedly break the site guidelines, such as by posting nationalistic flamebait—especially if they do it repeatedly. Those are not at all the same thing. It's common, of course, for people to make grandiose claims about being banned for their noble views when really it was for their bad behavior.
- namelosw 6y ago
  From my understanding, Jack Ma having these troubles recently because he's filing the Ant Group IPO. Everybody was talking about the stock because everybody believes it would be skyrocketing. Also combined with the fact that the Ant Group is abusing rules under fintech's cover (eg: Banks need to follow regulations on the interest rate but the Ant Group along with other financial companies can get away with it, or they lure graduates to lend money they can't afford to pay back). These caused concern from the government because it has potentially huge impacts on society (most likely reap shit ton of money from people). As the government see it, if they caused such problems it's the government that has to deal with the consequence. PS: Some information about Guo from the video. According to Vice, He was rich because he was close to high ranking officials, and fled because the Government ally he linked to was under investigation because of accepting bribes [0]. Everybody would know in China, a close relationship comes from bribing at least from those times, and bribing is a crime in most countries especially in the US. It seems to me, he callout corruption issues only because he's out of the game. [0] https://youtu.be/LkOsgh5kcgQ?t=92 https://youtu.be/LkOsgh5kcgQ?t=92
  - maeln 6y ago
    > Everybody would know in China, a close relationship comes from bribing at least from those times, and bribing is a crime in most countries It is a classic tactic in dictatorship: Make sure that for anybody to advance, they need to get their hands dirty (i.e bribes) so that you always have a Damocles sword over their head. It's one way to ensure obedience.
  - dumb1224 6y ago
    However even in the oversea chinese community he (Guo) is poorly regarded and very dubious. He gained a lot of attention much earlier because of these callouts but later proven not accurate and not different from other controversial figures in order to gain popularity. Their motto is 爆料革命 - 'callout revolution'. Many even major chinese celebrities fall for that. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%88%86%E6%96%99%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%88%86%E6%96%99%E9%9D%A9%E5... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/business/media/steve-bannon-china.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/business/media/steve-bann...
- johncena33 6y ago
  > Basically these individuals grow with the hand of the CCP on their back, and when it's time to collect they are stripped off and put on tight leash, and at any moment they can easily be muffled. That's the reason I never got why all the fanfare for Jack Ma. I don't know how much of his success can be attributed to CCP's belssings.
- erdos4d 6y ago
  > Why do the major trade blocks ignore these actions? USA, EU... These people are literally disappearing millions from an ethnic group into concentration camps in a genuine genocide and nobody cares. Why would anyone care about some puppet "billionaire" who gets disappeared for acting up?
  - squiggleblaz 6y ago
    As a matter of fact/demonstrable behavior, regardless of the things we would like to be true, most people would value the life of a billionaire business person well above the lives of millions of poor people who don't speak the same as us. This is especially true the higher up in power you go; and since it requires power to do anything about it, the chances of anything being done about it are much greater when it's a billionaire business person than a nation of poor people.
someperson 6y ago
I haven't watched the documentary yet, but exiled billionaire Guo Wengui is a divisive figure and on some topics it's unclear how reliable he is. Not to say any of his claims are false. In fact, I expect much of his claims against the government of China are true. But it's just something to watch out for, especially when he talks about things further from his direct experiences. For what it's worth, he's also close friends conservative media proprietors like former Trump-advisor Steve Bannon (who is articulate, has some interesting and mostly reasonable, well-thought through things to say, but is sometimes divisive).
- gillesjacobs 6y ago
  Guo Wengui is not a reliable source of information on corruption in the CCP. Most of the claims he has made and documents he released could not be verified. I think it's too bad, had he been less zealous in his crusade against the CCP he could have been a good source on how the CCP handles the upper business class. Now, any plausible observations and experiences are drowned out by partisan nonsense.
  - someperson 6y ago
    Given how few sources of information on the CCP there are, I'll listen to all Guo's claims and make up my own mind.
newbie578 6y ago
Do not worry, they are not disappearing, they are just going for "voluntarily re-education"... Dear lord, if I said this to someone 20 years ago, you would think we were back during the ww2 era...
- einszwei 6y ago
  China has a much longer history of "re-education" which if I recall correctly started since cultural revolution. There was even something called "Struggle Session" which was only abolished by Deng Xiaoping. Re-education through labor was officially abolished in 2013 but many suspect that it was only renamed because of international spotlight.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
I can understand the philosophical strain between founding governmental principals that say ‘everyones work belongs to everyone else’ and then the practical realities of ‘we need productive citizens to increase our wealth because we are starving to death’ The government will always be an elite group with the backing of violence (law/military). Once it becomes compromised, the injustice will cause those with means to flee.
Rexxar 6y ago
Strangely the title in French use "Milliardaire", the title in German use "Milliardäre". So the number has been divided by 1000 in translation.
- lordnacho 6y ago
  This is a common issue. There are related languages where "billion" doesn't mean the same number, eg shove this (English) into translate and have it show you Swedish or German.
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- ginko 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales
  - Rexxar 6y ago
    If it was a long/short scale error, the error factor would be in the other direction.
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eunos 6y ago
If CCP want to prosecute Ma, he would be trialed live on CCTV similar to disgraced politburo members like Bo Xilai and Zhou Yongkang. Pretty sure he is just laying low or negotiating with the government right now.
- whoevercares 6y ago
  No way. The government is not that low yet
- T-A 6y ago
  > If CCP want to prosecute Ma, he would be trialed live on CCTV similar to disgraced politburo members That's not how it works for Chinese billionaires; it would elevate their status to that of CCP heavyweights. When their time comes, billionaires simply vanish: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/business/china-xiao-jianhua.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/business/china-xiao-jianh... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/china-billionaires-ceo-disappearing-missing-station-sanctioned-abductions-beijing-security-agencies-xiao-jianhua-a7564896.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/china-billi...
  - baybal2 6y ago
    > That's not how it works for Chinese billionaires; it would elevate their status to that of CCP heavyweights. When their time comes, billionaires simply vanish: Yes, it's exactly because they don't want to cause a billionaire chicken run, unlike with own party officials, which are humiliated, punished in the most public, and terrible way.
- eunos 6y ago
  Case in point, Fan Bingbing Got a tax problem then gone from July 2018 then back at late October 2018. She's just lay low to avoid extra scrutiny https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_Bingbing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_Bingbing
- tlear 6y ago
  To negotiate you must have something.. when you are naked in a cell in some hellhole that is not much. By now he has no control of any of his companies. He is basically just a body now to be used by PRC as they see fit. Compost? Tear eyed apology? Reformed new face? Whatever he needs to be for them he will be.
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throwaway4good 6y ago
Guo Wengui is the main associate / bankroller of Steve Bannon. Behind stuff such as Hunter Biden's laptop, the "scientific" papers that proves that COVID19 is made in a lab, how Trump had the presidential election "stolen" by election fraud. How ARTE, which is a French/German public service TV station, can have him as a center-piece of their documentary is beyond me.
- abacadaba 6y ago
  What exactly are you disputing about Hunter's laptop? Or just mentioning that he helped bring this activity to light?
  - throwaway4good 6y ago
    Just to be clear, we are talking about "Steve Bannon War Room Pandemic" and "The New Federal State of China". These people are not trustworthy at all. They can be entertaining though.
- nsajko 6y ago
  It seems like this is just an instance of a more general pattern observable in newspaper and TV coverage of a lot of things: given a lack of other sources of information (because of language barriers and lack of free press in this case) and widespread lack of skepticism when it comes to some things (here related to longstanding political issues, propaganda, etc.), journalists will embrace any available source of information without due care. They need the business, and verifying would require actual effort, possibly even investigation. At least I suppose that's how it goes. That's why I trust very little of what is written about, e.g., North Korea: it doesn't mean that everything that sucks and supposedly happened there is true just because the system there indeed sucks. I think everybody is maybe predisposed to believe whatever they read about a topic they don't know about themselves as long as it fits in their worldview, so journalists get a free pass doing less checking than Wikipedia editors as long as the "news" is believable.
  - throwaway4good 6y ago
kerng 6y ago
Adding a theory here... Jack Ma is the one buying all the Bitcoin.
- cm2187 6y ago
  He is more likely assembling iphones in a remote factory in China right now.
- maerF0x0 6y ago
  I think he's smarter than that. Public ledger and CCP could aim to control > 50% of nodes...
hourislate 6y ago
The trillions in Capital Outflows over the last two decades that found its way into real estate all over the west (Vancouver, Toronto, London, NYC, etc) is a good indicator of how the rich feel about their Government in China. Everything you have can disappear in an instant unless you took steps to protect it (move your money out into hard assets). Cross the CPP and there are no second chances. Jack Ma is finished.
- ptero 6y ago
  I do not think that those outflows necessarily indicate problems (they might, but they might not). China for many years had a huge current account surplus, which means that the country exports way more than it imports, so it accumulates dollars (euros, yen, etc.) that it needs to do something with. Those capital outflows might be panic setups but they may also be prudent diversifications. For example, Japan citizens also went on a buying spree around the world during their 1980s bubble, which did not mean persecution and fear in Tokyo.
- Aperocky 6y ago
  If by finished you mean still having double digits of billions of dollars and live a life doing pretty much whatever he wants without actively challenging government regulation. yeah. Despite the common fantasy here that if someone was not appearing in public in China means they must have 'disappeared', what usually happen is they come out again and then the news pretending this whole episode never happened. It became so excessive, I remember news calling Kim Jong Un's disappearance and death at least 5 different times in 2020.
  - hourislate 6y ago
    >If by finished you mean still having double digits of billions of dollars and live a life doing pretty much whatever he wants without actively challenging government regulation. yeah. History would suggest otherwise... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/business/china-xiao-jianhua.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/business/china-xiao-jianh...
- maeln 6y ago
olalonde 6y ago
The main guy interviewed, Guo Wengui, has an interesting Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Wengui https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Wengui
bothersumman 6y ago
Funny thing is when you secure "millions" you experience "more money more problems" CCP may operate as the IRS/Kingdom etc on complex grandeur scale. Wise know $$ is used to move away from monetary obligations. If this is the case...China has a huge problem. This happened in US when folks secured land grants and never wished to return to the US colonies. This always brings wars or conflict as the rich elect to tap out with the knowledge of systems... In this case the system(s) fear such knowledge (of the previous rich) will be passed down and spread to the point where government truly has to serve the people.
fqye 6y ago
HN has desended to Reddit officially.
treestump 6y ago
Guo WenGui, the guy in the video has striked me as an attention seeker after watching multiple of his videos. Constantly showing off his wealth to his viewers (live streaming on yatches, showing them his waitresses and his catered meals). His motives are correct but I wouldn't trust EVERYTHING he says. I would take a lot of things he says with a grain of salt. He's a chinese Alex Jones... He's spread some pretty ridiculous claims, such as saying Biden won't be inagurated come inaguration day that it'll still either be Trump or the Nancy Pelosi.... I've had family members listen to him and they've slowly gone down a rabbit hole full or ridiculous conspiracy theories
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legitster 6y ago
TPP was a brutally anti-Chinese trade agreement - it forged privileged trading status with all of China's main rivals and China would only be allowed to join later if they shaped up. The US opted to drop it and unsuccessfully deal with the Chinese party 1:1 in negotiations. Imagine if a business partner was robbing you, and instead of finding other partners, you tried to negotiate with them. Obviously, they hold all the cards and have no incentive to play along. If anything, they would want to steal more! They would get more leverage! I don't know if the TPP would have been a silver bullet, but it's hard to imagine the CCP would be this brazen if they were on the outside looking to come in. Remember that actions in Hong Kong and Xi Jinping's lifetime appointment all happened after the TPP was killed. I think they are power grabbing as much as they can now while no one is really holding them to task.
- legolas2412 6y ago
  I think even Bernie was against TPP, not just Trump. The situation could be similar to the idea that you gave unfair terms to a business partner and felt robbed. So you found other business partners and signed the same terms with them, basically to spite/limit the original business partner. But now you are still being robbed, even faster infact, and by multiple people, and no way of recourse, as you just signed that deal!
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    > I think even Bernie was against TPP, not just Trump. It didn't do much for US workers, just protected Intellectual Property. TPP means you can't outsource it to China, but you can absolutely outsource it to Malaysia, Vietnam, etc. as long as they respect the IP. Mixed feelings. It has no real benefit for US workers, but, at the same time, the damage is done and US manufacturing isn't going to magically reappear. Might as well at least try to lock down the IP and force Asia (read: China) to play by the rules.
    - legitster 6y ago
      Except China is able to maintain very favorable trading conditions through currency manipulation. If you can get them to stop doing that, there would be a non-zero amount of jobs that get returned to the US.
bigpumpkin 6y ago
Let's see what this disappeared Billionaire exile is doing in America: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/950360647 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/950360647
pnw_hazor 6y ago
I watched Alex Jones on Tim Pool's IRL podcast say that it was a crucial part of "The Great Reset" to clear out the middle-rich -- the people considered wealthy enough to cause trouble but not part-of-the-program so to speak. I have no idea about The Great Reset but it makes sense for the CCP.
hungryhobo 6y ago
The problem with these conspiracy theory is it stirs up the pre conceived notion that the big evil CCP can kidnap anyone, and people will generally remember it. but when Jack Ma eventually shows up there isn't going to be another story that clears up the conspiracy so people are left with this false idea but based on inaccurate events. I've seen the west do this countless times with their reporting on China, make up a piece without any evidence, but later when the story is proven false, nothing is said.
- deleted 6y ago
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- ReaganFJones 6y ago
  Someone re-appearing doesn't mean that they were not kidnapped.
- zepto 6y ago
  To be fair, they do that with a lot of things - not just reporting on China.
rsbrown 6y ago
I'd take anything Guo Wengui says about the Chinese gov't with a grain of skepticism. Steve Bannon has been running around promoting Guo's story as part of the larger anti-China Trumpist narrative. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/26/guo-wengui-chinese-billionaire-emigre-links-steve-bannon https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/26/guo-wengui-chinese-bill...
74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
the first 50% of the docu is about a billionaire who didn't disappear and the second 50% is about some random billionaire who neither disappeared nor has anything to say about the supposed subject ...

240 points by aminozuur 6y ago

hhkb 6y ago

May not be a popular opinion, but Jack Ma owes his entire success to the CCP for creating the single most effective moat.

libertine 6y ago

The first time I heard this story from him some years ago I tried not to fall into the conspiracy theory trap, because of assassinations in foreign countries disguised as suicides it's a "classic setup", so I simply decided to watch one of his predictions: keep an eye on Jack Ma. The result was quite scary, Jack indeed started to fade away, first by suddenly parting from Alibaba, diluting his position, then he stopped showing in international media (which he was relatively active, since he was a reference in china entrepreneurship), and now he vanishes. Basically these individuals grow with the hand of the CCP on their back, and when it's time to collect they are stripped off and put on tight leash, and at any moment they can easily be muffled. Why do the major trade blocks ignore these actions? USA, EU... Edit: the predictions I'm talking about are from this youtube interview, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJK_5qDraM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJK_5qDraM , which bare in mind it's still a biased source.

klik99 6y ago
I still feel it’s a conspiracy theory but Jack Ma is absolutely being targeted. He was beloved by the Chinese media as a motivational speaker as well as a business man, when he started not speaking highly of CCP (which is tantamount to criticizing) I told my wife that in a year he would be vilified by the media, and sure enough here we are at the first stages of that. This might be happening on a case by case basis with those who don’t want to “play ball”, but I don’t believe there is a concerted effort to bring down all billionaires. Reminds me of the rise of the middle class in Europe as they threatened the existing power structure. Sometimes it feels China is going through the same stages of history Europe went through over centuries but at breakneck speed.
- antibuddy 6y ago
  It is in fact a conspiracy theory. But a small reminder that conspiracy theory doesn't tell you anything about the truthfulness, e.g. that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. That being said: Your explanation makes more sense to me. It is often enough to anger the wrong person to get a bad treatment (well, even assassination). And looking at history this is exponentiated in dictatorships, where power is concentrated on few ppl, who can act with impunity.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    > that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. To be fair though, that never was much of a conspiracy. Maybe in the United States it was but in the rest of the world I don't think people believe the WMD story, rather, we believed the UN weapons inspectors' story.
    - elindbe3 6y ago
      A poorly executed conspiracy is still a conspiracy.
      - jacquesm 6y ago
        No, it was simply a lie. And one that should have fallen completely flat. My respect for Colin Powell went through the floor that day.
      - MichaelZuo 6y ago
        The word ‘conspiracy’ itself has a legal, original, meaning entirely different from the popular meaning. I find all good discussions involving this clarify what meaning is intended.
        vmception 6y ago
        I resort to just saying the definition of words, in a sentence, instead of the word itself. I've told and convinced plenty of anti-vaxxers about the magical secret way our body naturally produces antibodies if we expose our body to dead versions of a virus (or, now, things shaped like that virus). They like magic, secrets and nature, they do not like the word vaccine. I do the same with the word conspiracy, "That is a secret plan by a group to do something harmful". It rolls off the tongue.
xwdv 6y ago
God damn, they killed Jack Ma?
- libertine 6y ago
  Jack Ma is missing since October. No one knows what happened to him, in my opinion I doubt they killed him simply because he was in China. What's the point of killing him there? They can simply remove him from the picture.
  - paganel 6y ago
    > Jack Ma is missing since October. Recent article on this [1], because I must admit that for me also this was a tough thing to believe. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-suspected-missing-2021-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-susp...
    - pankajdoharey 6y ago
      Although i think it will reflect poorly on CCP to secretly make Jack go missing, who is actually a world famous personality at this point. One should also remember that anything is possible in a totalitarian regime.
      - libertine 6y ago
        Will it though? You live in the time where there's massive outrage for one week, but the next week that's the subject of the past that lost hype and momentum so it's forgotten. I think the CCP knows this, hell even political leaders of the free world know this - no one resigns due to scandals anymore. They just sit tight, don't acknowledge it, and it blows over.
        pankajdoharey 6y ago
        That is true, but Jack isnt any ordinary Billionaire, this would affect Chinese businesses.
tchalla 6y ago
The major trade blocks ignore these actions because they profit from it. Once they won’t, we will see “democracy values” based moral statements and arguments.
- libertine 6y ago
  But does it make sense in the long term? I don't see it honestly... it's not just democracy values, it ranges from that to things like hacking/IP theft. It's a massive loss. Also, if we're at the point where "democracy values" are stumped by short term profits then maybe we deserve all of this.
  - Siira 6y ago
    The Western political institutions have short-term incentives for their constituents.
    - esarbe 6y ago
      That's an unfortunate drawback of a constituency trained to prioritize short-term goals. I wonder if it's possible to change this and have a 'wise' constituency that is able to do a more long-term prioritization.
ianai 6y ago
What can the trade blocks do? Sanctions would be tantamount to what was seen at the start of the pandemic. Basically cutting your local economy off from the world’s manufacturing. War would be even more extreme. There’s 1.3 billion Chinese. Their government is capable of being infinitely more organized and long thinking than just about all the others. Maybe a world war could curb the inevitable sans nuclear weapons. With nuclear weapons... Perhaps if the smaller trade blocs all rejected vehemently China along with the major it’d be a stronger position. Say in reaction to such actions. The large trade parties could help this by investing with infrastructure and other such programs in those countries. Possibly hoping for the Chinese people to change their form of government from within is the “nicest” option.
- ianai 6y ago
  Basically, you've got to reproduce the factors within China making them such strong trading partners outside of them in a way they cannot diminish unilaterally. This could be done with political will or reproduction of their capacity. Personally, I wonder whether a UBI in a developed country could work to essentially lower their external 'trading costs'. Try to change their thought processes at the margin. i.e. Make the local goods and services out compete the foreign goods/services through moving local costs not observed in foreign goods/services to localized costs. i.e. Maybe a person making a UBI would be willing to do a job for (X+U) - where (X+U) is their reservation price, X is the foreign price, and U the UBI. Edit-flipped signs
- BunsanSpace 6y ago
  The long thinking aspect of the Chinese government is Chinese propaganda. You see them announcing long term goals and going on giant infrastructure projects, which go on to be under used, poorly built e&. China has serious structural issues that the CCP is trying to hide. Massive food, drug and alcohol fraud hurting people (fake alcohol is a HUGE issue). Riots, mass stabbings/attacks, economic slowdown/hardship. All of which the CCP covers up because foreign media can't easily penetrate, and the CCP control the domestic media/narrative. China is a house of lies, they're essentially trying to fake it until they make it.
  - 6y ago
GrantZvolsky 6y ago
Let's not jump to conclusions with Jack Ma. It could all be explained by an illness.
memetherapy 6y ago
Because there is little to no benefit to the EU or USA to challenging the CCP, be it because of their treatment of a few billionaires or millions of Uighers. Unlike the Soviet Union China doesn't represent an existential threat to the USA or EU, largely as a matter of geography. The promotion of human rights, liberal democracy, the rule of law etc. has always been fairly low on the priority list of most western states in actuality and has usually played second fiddle to national interests.
- starfallg 6y ago
  >Unlike the Soviet Union China doesn't represent an existential threat to the USA or EU, largely as a matter of geography. That is categorically untrue. The model of government and economic success of China is the biggest existential threat to western hegemony, much bigger than the USSR. China is well in the process of building a strong military with greater capabilities than Russia and once this is complete, the world order will undoubtedly change unless something is done about it now. The only reason we don't see more noise on this is because a lot of people depend on trade with China for their wealth, which was never the case during the cold war with the USSR. The state department was fully aware of the Chinese threat, hence why the TPP was proposed as a measure of containment. Too bad that play was ruined and replaced with ineffective populist measures that sound good on AM radio and internet forums, but are actually counterproductive in practice.
  - tlear 6y ago
    USSR controlled half of Europe and had enough ground forces on hand to bust through Germany and be in France in a week(without nukes being involved). PRC is nowhere close. It is a threat to Japan, India, Russia, Vietnam etc to US and Europe not so much
    - arcticfox 6y ago
      I don't understand that perspective - large ground armies haven't been relevant to superpower conflicts since pre-Cold War. Force projection, like the US has been able to do for 30 years, is relevant and when China ramps up in that regard there's no telling how things will change. IMO China doesn't even need to bother much with military advancement to become a massive threat to Western democracies though, as they can simply continue to build their economic engine and leverage it whenever necessary. They are already doing so to great effect against multinational corporations.
varjag 6y ago
The Little Red Checkbook
FooBarWidget 6y ago
Speculations such as these should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Consider that: * Jack Ma is himself a CCP member. * Before regulators stopped Ant's IPO, people were worrying about how Ant is a CCP ploy to take over the world, and a national security threat. Speculations about China have a tendency to view everything through the "CCP is evil and the only thing that's constantly on their minds is how to kill/jail/invade more" lens. As if all behavior in China is solely attributable to the CCP. This lens distorts things so much that a lot of the time you end up with nonsense.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  Have you lived in China? CCP membership means nothing. There are dozens, if not hundreds of government officials and corporate identities in prison (or worse, executed) who were party members. Global perceptions about Ant Financial are completely irrelevant to Jack Ma. This is all internal politics. Anyone who poses a potential threat to the party (read: Xi Jinping) is liable to disappear (even if only temporarily).
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    > CCP membership means nothing. I know. But that's not the point. Not that long ago people were speculating all over the place that Jack Ma's CCP membership means that Ant is a wholly state-controlled company and a national security threat. The 180 degree turn of all the comments, shows that at the end of the day, people don't actually know anything about China, and therefore we should be critical of speculations.
    - someperson 6y ago
      Regardless of Jack Ma's CCP membership, any major firm in China has close ties to the government at every level of the organization (including the officially embedded Chinese Communist Party cell). The recent Jack Ma + Ant kerfuffle started after he gave a public speech that was mildly critical of the CCP's financial regulation. He probably should have known better given the current political environment in China, but alas.
bserge 6y ago
It's all very interesting. I'd say the CCP is the most powerful group in the world right now. That they can control billionaires like that is impressive and scary. I have to admit, a one party system does seem like the best type of government, on paper. It can be more efficient and do things much faster than anything else. Billionaires can't just pay politicians to create/modify laws in their favour. And for the average citizen, life's the same as in a democracy. But that only works if the party is working for the country, gives people a decent amount of freedom and listens to their needs. When the party no longer keeps the people content (which seems inevitable, looking at history), there's practically no way to change it besides a violent revolution. That's a huge drawback, and the reason we're better off with a slower democratic system that doesn't have a single point of (catastrophic) failure. Modern China seems to work a lot like Imperial China. Just with different names for the emperor and his officials, more freedom and rights for the population, as well as more means to keep them in check.
- whoevercares 6y ago
  It’s a zero or one game for China —- they can make 10000 right decisions but the system could collapse with one, just one wrong decision. It’s not fault tolerant as the democracy system
  - squiggleblaz 6y ago
    Which single wrong decision is going to collapse China? Their administration have made wrong decisions before — unless you subscribe to some outlandish conspiracy theory. It seems far more likely that if they collapse, it will be as a consequence of a series of wrong decisions, in a completely boring way. The straw that breaks the camel's back will be the same as all the straws before it, except that everyone will analyse it to death considering the camel could hold thousands of other very similar straws, just not this one.
    - whoevercares 6y ago
      What I meant is high level strategic decisions. Example like cultural revolution. It’s really a single decision from one dictator and get carried out super efficiently. If you are Chinese, you’ll probably understand what I meant how single decisions could collapse China without even my explanation. China is strange, critical policies like cultural revolution and Deng’s decision to open the country was really very short and succinct words on paper
cheph 6y ago
> Why do the major trade blocks ignore these actions? USA, EU... Careful now ... I know of several people who were banned from HN for being critical of China ... EDIT: I suspect this post will be gone soon.
- dang 6y ago
  Who and when? If you're going make a grand claim like that, you should supply links so readers can make up their minds for themselves. HN is full of criticisms of China on any thread that touches even tangentially on China. We don't ban users for that. We ban users who repeatedly break the site guidelines, such as by posting nationalistic flamebait—especially if they do it repeatedly. Those are not at all the same thing. It's common, of course, for people to make grandiose claims about being banned for their noble views when really it was for their bad behavior.
namelosw 6y ago
From my understanding, Jack Ma having these troubles recently because he's filing the Ant Group IPO. Everybody was talking about the stock because everybody believes it would be skyrocketing. Also combined with the fact that the Ant Group is abusing rules under fintech's cover (eg: Banks need to follow regulations on the interest rate but the Ant Group along with other financial companies can get away with it, or they lure graduates to lend money they can't afford to pay back). These caused concern from the government because it has potentially huge impacts on society (most likely reap shit ton of money from people). As the government see it, if they caused such problems it's the government that has to deal with the consequence. PS: Some information about Guo from the video. According to Vice, He was rich because he was close to high ranking officials, and fled because the Government ally he linked to was under investigation because of accepting bribes [0]. Everybody would know in China, a close relationship comes from bribing at least from those times, and bribing is a crime in most countries especially in the US. It seems to me, he callout corruption issues only because he's out of the game. [0] https://youtu.be/LkOsgh5kcgQ?t=92 https://youtu.be/LkOsgh5kcgQ?t=92
- maeln 6y ago
  > Everybody would know in China, a close relationship comes from bribing at least from those times, and bribing is a crime in most countries It is a classic tactic in dictatorship: Make sure that for anybody to advance, they need to get their hands dirty (i.e bribes) so that you always have a Damocles sword over their head. It's one way to ensure obedience.
- dumb1224 6y ago
  However even in the oversea chinese community he (Guo) is poorly regarded and very dubious. He gained a lot of attention much earlier because of these callouts but later proven not accurate and not different from other controversial figures in order to gain popularity. Their motto is 爆料革命 - 'callout revolution'. Many even major chinese celebrities fall for that. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%88%86%E6%96%99%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%88%86%E6%96%99%E9%9D%A9%E5... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/business/media/steve-bannon-china.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/business/media/steve-bann...
johncena33 6y ago
> Basically these individuals grow with the hand of the CCP on their back, and when it's time to collect they are stripped off and put on tight leash, and at any moment they can easily be muffled. That's the reason I never got why all the fanfare for Jack Ma. I don't know how much of his success can be attributed to CCP's belssings.
erdos4d 6y ago
> Why do the major trade blocks ignore these actions? USA, EU... These people are literally disappearing millions from an ethnic group into concentration camps in a genuine genocide and nobody cares. Why would anyone care about some puppet "billionaire" who gets disappeared for acting up?
- squiggleblaz 6y ago
  As a matter of fact/demonstrable behavior, regardless of the things we would like to be true, most people would value the life of a billionaire business person well above the lives of millions of poor people who don't speak the same as us. This is especially true the higher up in power you go; and since it requires power to do anything about it, the chances of anything being done about it are much greater when it's a billionaire business person than a nation of poor people.

someperson 6y ago

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but exiled billionaire Guo Wengui is a divisive figure and on some topics it's unclear how reliable he is. Not to say any of his claims are false. In fact, I expect much of his claims against the government of China are true. But it's just something to watch out for, especially when he talks about things further from his direct experiences. For what it's worth, he's also close friends conservative media proprietors like former Trump-advisor Steve Bannon (who is articulate, has some interesting and mostly reasonable, well-thought through things to say, but is sometimes divisive).

gillesjacobs 6y ago
Guo Wengui is not a reliable source of information on corruption in the CCP. Most of the claims he has made and documents he released could not be verified. I think it's too bad, had he been less zealous in his crusade against the CCP he could have been a good source on how the CCP handles the upper business class. Now, any plausible observations and experiences are drowned out by partisan nonsense.
- someperson 6y ago
  Given how few sources of information on the CCP there are, I'll listen to all Guo's claims and make up my own mind.

newbie578 6y ago

Do not worry, they are not disappearing, they are just going for "voluntarily re-education"... Dear lord, if I said this to someone 20 years ago, you would think we were back during the ww2 era...

einszwei 6y ago
China has a much longer history of "re-education" which if I recall correctly started since cultural revolution. There was even something called "Struggle Session" which was only abolished by Deng Xiaoping. Re-education through labor was officially abolished in 2013 but many suspect that it was only renamed because of international spotlight.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

I can understand the philosophical strain between founding governmental principals that say ‘everyones work belongs to everyone else’ and then the practical realities of ‘we need productive citizens to increase our wealth because we are starving to death’ The government will always be an elite group with the backing of violence (law/military). Once it becomes compromised, the injustice will cause those with means to flee.

Rexxar 6y ago

Strangely the title in French use "Milliardaire", the title in German use "Milliardäre". So the number has been divided by 1000 in translation.

lordnacho 6y ago
This is a common issue. There are related languages where "billion" doesn't mean the same number, eg shove this (English) into translate and have it show you Swedish or German.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
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ginko 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales
- Rexxar 6y ago
  If it was a long/short scale error, the error factor would be in the other direction.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

eunos 6y ago

If CCP want to prosecute Ma, he would be trialed live on CCTV similar to disgraced politburo members like Bo Xilai and Zhou Yongkang. Pretty sure he is just laying low or negotiating with the government right now.

whoevercares 6y ago
No way. The government is not that low yet
T-A 6y ago
> If CCP want to prosecute Ma, he would be trialed live on CCTV similar to disgraced politburo members That's not how it works for Chinese billionaires; it would elevate their status to that of CCP heavyweights. When their time comes, billionaires simply vanish: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/business/china-xiao-jianhua.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/business/china-xiao-jianh... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/china-billionaires-ceo-disappearing-missing-station-sanctioned-abductions-beijing-security-agencies-xiao-jianhua-a7564896.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/china-billi...
- baybal2 6y ago
  > That's not how it works for Chinese billionaires; it would elevate their status to that of CCP heavyweights. When their time comes, billionaires simply vanish: Yes, it's exactly because they don't want to cause a billionaire chicken run, unlike with own party officials, which are humiliated, punished in the most public, and terrible way.
eunos 6y ago
Case in point, Fan Bingbing Got a tax problem then gone from July 2018 then back at late October 2018. She's just lay low to avoid extra scrutiny https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_Bingbing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_Bingbing
tlear 6y ago
To negotiate you must have something.. when you are naked in a cell in some hellhole that is not much. By now he has no control of any of his companies. He is basically just a body now to be used by PRC as they see fit. Compost? Tear eyed apology? Reformed new face? Whatever he needs to be for them he will be.

deleted 6y ago

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throwaway4good 6y ago

Guo Wengui is the main associate / bankroller of Steve Bannon. Behind stuff such as Hunter Biden's laptop, the "scientific" papers that proves that COVID19 is made in a lab, how Trump had the presidential election "stolen" by election fraud. How ARTE, which is a French/German public service TV station, can have him as a center-piece of their documentary is beyond me.

abacadaba 6y ago
What exactly are you disputing about Hunter's laptop? Or just mentioning that he helped bring this activity to light?
- throwaway4good 6y ago
  Just to be clear, we are talking about "Steve Bannon War Room Pandemic" and "The New Federal State of China". These people are not trustworthy at all. They can be entertaining though.
nsajko 6y ago
It seems like this is just an instance of a more general pattern observable in newspaper and TV coverage of a lot of things: given a lack of other sources of information (because of language barriers and lack of free press in this case) and widespread lack of skepticism when it comes to some things (here related to longstanding political issues, propaganda, etc.), journalists will embrace any available source of information without due care. They need the business, and verifying would require actual effort, possibly even investigation. At least I suppose that's how it goes. That's why I trust very little of what is written about, e.g., North Korea: it doesn't mean that everything that sucks and supposedly happened there is true just because the system there indeed sucks. I think everybody is maybe predisposed to believe whatever they read about a topic they don't know about themselves as long as it fits in their worldview, so journalists get a free pass doing less checking than Wikipedia editors as long as the "news" is believable.
- throwaway4good 6y ago

kerng 6y ago

Adding a theory here... Jack Ma is the one buying all the Bitcoin.

cm2187 6y ago
He is more likely assembling iphones in a remote factory in China right now.
maerF0x0 6y ago
I think he's smarter than that. Public ledger and CCP could aim to control > 50% of nodes...

hourislate 6y ago

The trillions in Capital Outflows over the last two decades that found its way into real estate all over the west (Vancouver, Toronto, London, NYC, etc) is a good indicator of how the rich feel about their Government in China. Everything you have can disappear in an instant unless you took steps to protect it (move your money out into hard assets). Cross the CPP and there are no second chances. Jack Ma is finished.

ptero 6y ago
I do not think that those outflows necessarily indicate problems (they might, but they might not). China for many years had a huge current account surplus, which means that the country exports way more than it imports, so it accumulates dollars (euros, yen, etc.) that it needs to do something with. Those capital outflows might be panic setups but they may also be prudent diversifications. For example, Japan citizens also went on a buying spree around the world during their 1980s bubble, which did not mean persecution and fear in Tokyo.
Aperocky 6y ago
If by finished you mean still having double digits of billions of dollars and live a life doing pretty much whatever he wants without actively challenging government regulation. yeah. Despite the common fantasy here that if someone was not appearing in public in China means they must have 'disappeared', what usually happen is they come out again and then the news pretending this whole episode never happened. It became so excessive, I remember news calling Kim Jong Un's disappearance and death at least 5 different times in 2020.
- hourislate 6y ago
  >If by finished you mean still having double digits of billions of dollars and live a life doing pretty much whatever he wants without actively challenging government regulation. yeah. History would suggest otherwise... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/business/china-xiao-jianhua.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/business/china-xiao-jianh...
maeln 6y ago

olalonde 6y ago

The main guy interviewed, Guo Wengui, has an interesting Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Wengui https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Wengui

bothersumman 6y ago

Funny thing is when you secure "millions" you experience "more money more problems" CCP may operate as the IRS/Kingdom etc on complex grandeur scale. Wise know $$ is used to move away from monetary obligations. If this is the case...China has a huge problem. This happened in US when folks secured land grants and never wished to return to the US colonies. This always brings wars or conflict as the rich elect to tap out with the knowledge of systems... In this case the system(s) fear such knowledge (of the previous rich) will be passed down and spread to the point where government truly has to serve the people.

fqye 6y ago

HN has desended to Reddit officially.

treestump 6y ago

Guo WenGui, the guy in the video has striked me as an attention seeker after watching multiple of his videos. Constantly showing off his wealth to his viewers (live streaming on yatches, showing them his waitresses and his catered meals). His motives are correct but I wouldn't trust EVERYTHING he says. I would take a lot of things he says with a grain of salt. He's a chinese Alex Jones... He's spread some pretty ridiculous claims, such as saying Biden won't be inagurated come inaguration day that it'll still either be Trump or the Nancy Pelosi.... I've had family members listen to him and they've slowly gone down a rabbit hole full or ridiculous conspiracy theories

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legitster 6y ago

TPP was a brutally anti-Chinese trade agreement - it forged privileged trading status with all of China's main rivals and China would only be allowed to join later if they shaped up. The US opted to drop it and unsuccessfully deal with the Chinese party 1:1 in negotiations. Imagine if a business partner was robbing you, and instead of finding other partners, you tried to negotiate with them. Obviously, they hold all the cards and have no incentive to play along. If anything, they would want to steal more! They would get more leverage! I don't know if the TPP would have been a silver bullet, but it's hard to imagine the CCP would be this brazen if they were on the outside looking to come in. Remember that actions in Hong Kong and Xi Jinping's lifetime appointment all happened after the TPP was killed. I think they are power grabbing as much as they can now while no one is really holding them to task.

legolas2412 6y ago
I think even Bernie was against TPP, not just Trump. The situation could be similar to the idea that you gave unfair terms to a business partner and felt robbed. So you found other business partners and signed the same terms with them, basically to spite/limit the original business partner. But now you are still being robbed, even faster infact, and by multiple people, and no way of recourse, as you just signed that deal!
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  > I think even Bernie was against TPP, not just Trump. It didn't do much for US workers, just protected Intellectual Property. TPP means you can't outsource it to China, but you can absolutely outsource it to Malaysia, Vietnam, etc. as long as they respect the IP. Mixed feelings. It has no real benefit for US workers, but, at the same time, the damage is done and US manufacturing isn't going to magically reappear. Might as well at least try to lock down the IP and force Asia (read: China) to play by the rules.
  - legitster 6y ago
    Except China is able to maintain very favorable trading conditions through currency manipulation. If you can get them to stop doing that, there would be a non-zero amount of jobs that get returned to the US.

bigpumpkin 6y ago

Let's see what this disappeared Billionaire exile is doing in America: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/950360647 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/950360647

pnw_hazor 6y ago

I watched Alex Jones on Tim Pool's IRL podcast say that it was a crucial part of "The Great Reset" to clear out the middle-rich -- the people considered wealthy enough to cause trouble but not part-of-the-program so to speak. I have no idea about The Great Reset but it makes sense for the CCP.

hungryhobo 6y ago

The problem with these conspiracy theory is it stirs up the pre conceived notion that the big evil CCP can kidnap anyone, and people will generally remember it. but when Jack Ma eventually shows up there isn't going to be another story that clears up the conspiracy so people are left with this false idea but based on inaccurate events. I've seen the west do this countless times with their reporting on China, make up a piece without any evidence, but later when the story is proven false, nothing is said.

deleted 6y ago
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ReaganFJones 6y ago
Someone re-appearing doesn't mean that they were not kidnapped.
zepto 6y ago
To be fair, they do that with a lot of things - not just reporting on China.

rsbrown 6y ago

I'd take anything Guo Wengui says about the Chinese gov't with a grain of skepticism. Steve Bannon has been running around promoting Guo's story as part of the larger anti-China Trumpist narrative. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/26/guo-wengui-chinese-billionaire-emigre-links-steve-bannon https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/26/guo-wengui-chinese-bill...

74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago

the first 50% of the docu is about a billionaire who didn't disappear and the second 50% is about some random billionaire who neither disappeared nor has anything to say about the supposed subject ...