11 ms·

As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Prison in the USA is really bad. Yes school is authoritarian, but most

As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Prison in the USA is really bad. Yes school is authoritarian, but most popular entertainment on prisons downplays how bad it really gets. Watch some interviews of people who have actually been to prison. Murder and rape is common (I saw it happen), you will get your possessions stolen under the threat of murder/rape, you'll probably spend 10-30% of your time in solitary confinement for reasons outside your control (torture according to human rights groups: I've been there, I'd prefer nonpermanent torture), you have to learn violence and get into fights with people who might be carrying a knife or else get taken advantage of indefinitely, ... It's bad. And psychologically, you have no freedom whatsoever: no you cannot poop or drink water whenever you want to. You can only poop when your cellie isn't around (1-2h/day). You will be abused by prison staff (false accusations, physical abuse, food deprivation, ..) The whole thing is an abomination. It serves no useful purpose to society to subject most criminals to prison: it doesn't serve as a deterrent (based on talking to ~50 prisoners about this), it only radicalizes them further against "the system", making it easier for them to break further laws. Why don't we have more outrage against this outdated institution created out of 1600 era values? The amount of human suffering it creates... It's astounding. Most prisoners would probably rather a super old school punishment like chopping off their arm over the prison sentence they get. And it would be more effective.

mbrodersen 6y ago
The US prison system is purposely designed to be as violent, demeaning, and inhuman as possible. So you can argue that it works perfectly the way it was designed to work. The official theory is that it somehow will reduce crime. That hasn’t happened obviously. And yet the system continues. So obviously the real purpose of the US prison system is not to reduce crime. Other countries has for years shown how to effectively reduce crime without torturing people.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Now why don't people apply this to everything else? You think HN knows what it's like to be a plumber('s apprentice), janitor, drive a floor buffer for min-wage, etc?
- Chris2048 6y ago
  You think they don't? No working class backgrounds on HN?
nolongerlowres 6y ago
Thank you for posting this. I couldn’t believe the other comments trying to equate schools with prison. It’s unbelievable how we treat prisoners in the US. I wish there was more I could do than vote and donate to causes like the ACLU. Starting to realize that my beliefs are in the minority re: how to treat fellow countrymen, even those who have committed crimes.
- throwaway998662 6y ago
  I think it's because we as people tend to speak from our experiences, and I do agree that school is more authoritarian than it should be. I'm not sure what else you can do :( it's a really big systemic issue. I think we just need more awareness, first? Social life in prison involves having "friends" who can any day decide to try and rob or fight you (both happened to me with my closest "friend"). Nobody has real friends. It's dog eat dog, you lose the ability to trust, and don't have any trusting social connections. That's extremely painful. When you talk to people on the outside, every prisoner just tries to deceive them into thinking things are just dandy: I'm not sure why that happens, but it means those connections aren't real either. It's all so much worse psychologically than is conveyed in popular media. We don't know how to quantify psychological suffering though; as a society we rather put people through huge amounts of that than some visible physical suffering (which, again, is probably strongly preferable to the criminal). Unfortunately most of the people suffering in the prison system are poor, so we don't hear what they have to say. If you're rich, you can afford your own lawyer and get a much better plea deal, and get out quickly. It's also very racist: you will really understand Black Lives Matter when you meet a black father who was sentenced to 30 years in prison for a nonviolent drug offense, and realize there are 100,000s - millions of people in the exact same situation: it's destroying entire communities. I've seen the way black people who a judge has never seen before are villified from their appearance: go to a courtroom near you if you don't believe me, it's shocking. I'm talking about in San Francisco, not even a rural area. Anyways, thank you for your empathy. I wish more people understood that criminals will commit less crime if they're forgiven and accepted by society, instead of villified. And it's also the decent thing to do. Prisons are bad cultures because the small number of actual bad actors push everything to this shitty equilibrium: most prisoners individually have a lot of shame about their crimes, and as strong a moral code as the average person. Some definitely do not: and it's hard for the justice system to make the distinction. All things which are hard to believe until you have some real world experience with these things...
samename 6y ago
Thank you for your perspective. Hopefully one day we can change this system.
- 20after4 6y ago
  Keep dreaming. You’ve got to be one hell of an optimist to hold onto that hope at this point.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    I bet John Brown was called “one hell of an optimist” when calling for the abolition of slavery in the 1850s.
qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago
Bring back flogging! Another great way to deal with male criminals would be to cut their balls off. Solves the root problem.
- dang 6y ago
  We ban accounts that post like this. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the intended spirit of the site.
  - qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago
    I didn't mean to be snarky, that is my unironic take. Our current prison system delivers a horrible punishment, but in a way people can pretend it's not occurring. It would be better to deliver a less horrible punishment and make it public so people know it is occurring. Not only would this be more humane, it also improves the deterrent value of punishment. With the current justice system, people can pretend like doing crimes makes them into some sort of badass. Public humiliation / castration helps clarify that. The goal is to deter crime effectively with as little suffering as possible.
    - dang 6y ago
      The issue wasn't snark. You broke the rule against flamebait, as well as this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." HN users need to follow all the rules, not just one of them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago
        Alright, sorry
thayne 6y ago
I know a judge who has said the US "corrections" system is not designed to correct criminals and prevent future crimes. It's designed to punish people.
- mbrodersen 6y ago
  That is blindingly obvious. The US culture has an undercurrent of cruelty against the poor/people of colour. The prison system is a prime example of this.
- throwaway998662 6y ago
  Yeah completely agree that's what it's designed for, but to what end? What goal do we think the punishment achieves? The only useful thing about it IMO is preventing truly dangerous/sick people from interacting with the rest of society. Most prisoners are not that
  - qwtel 6y ago
    When you are the victim of a crime, you want the perpetrator to be punished. Typically to a larger extent than reasonable. That's the point. The fact that the state does it for you according to predefined rules, already is the civilised aspect. It's telling that liberals naturally take the perspective of perpetrator. Perhaps they remidn them of themselves?
    - plutonorm 6y ago
      No. It's because we possess empathy.
      - qwtel 6y ago
        not for those who were wronged in the first place
        throwaway998662 6y ago
tw25605867 6y ago
> Why don't we have more outrage against this outdated institution created out of 1600 era values? I can be outraged at both outdated, dehumanizing institutions.
wisty 6y ago
> it doesn't serve as a deterrent (based on talking to ~50 prisoners about this) 1. Talking to prisoners doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for the rest of the population. This is a massive selection bias, it's like saying diet and exercise doesn't work because morbidly obese people say it doesn't work for them. 2. People sometimes lie (often first to themselves), especially about their motivations. This is like an angry teenager yelling that all their rebellion is because of their parents' rules, it's often a self-serving rationalisation. 3. There's no doubt that the US prison system is a bit weird if you compare it to the rest of the world.
- throwaway998662 6y ago
  Most people who end up in prisoners in the USA are reoffenders. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world and very high crime rates. So when I talk about deterrence I'm mostly talking about reoffenders. I.e, the prisoners I talked to coming back. I think they're more likely to commit crimes after prison, not less!! Do you think people would lie, in a heavily monitored prison, about wanting to never come back to prison because they'll "die in glory" in a gun fight against the cops next time so they can't be arrested? Or about becoming a drug kingpin? Sounds like you think I'm saying these people were claiming nice things about themselves, but really they're mostly claiming quite bad things if it makes me think they're going to be back and were strongly negatively influenced by peers in prison. On the topic of regular people who prison serves as a deterrent for, I'd look at other countries where crime rates are lower without the same hideous institution. Clearly it's not just horrible prisons which prevent noncriminals from committing crime, since so many countries don't have that? I guess that's up for debate.
  - Merman_Mike 6y ago
    Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments. If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?
    - KittenInABox 6y ago
      Generally, deterrents such as extremely harsh prison sentences have no evidence that they're actually effective. Many nonviolent crimes such as the kind associated with addiction will occur as a result the illness. Other violent crimes such as murder occur compulsively, and therefore do not respond to rational thinking such as "jail really sucks bro". Think of it like this though: If harsh, dehumanizing punishments were an effective deterrent, crimes would've gone up when we stopped chopping off people's limbs for stealing, and in fact we'd have more stealing in modern day than at any time in history because public mutilation is not an acceptable punishment now.
tolbish 6y ago
> Why don't we have more outrage against this outdated institution created out of 1600 era values? Americans with nice lives, particularly the types to frequent HN, are insulated from the effects of our criminal justice system. Concern for schooling takes precedence.
- Bostonian 6y ago
  Americans who live in low-crime areas are somewhat insulated from criminal justice "reform" that sets criminals free and increases crime rates.
  - KittenInABox 6y ago
    [This comment previously contained an assumption that reducing poverty reduces crime rates. A poster commented that there isn't as much of a correlation as this comment stated so I removed it.]
    - Bostonian 6y ago
      Poverty rates fell in the 1960s, but crime rose.
      - KittenInABox 6y ago
        After doing a brief amount of research, you're probably right. Thank you for correcting me.
      - aegis4244 6y ago
        Leaded gas.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Americans with nice lives, particularly the types to frequent HN, are insulated from the effects of our criminal justice system. Concern for schooling takes precedence. It's called selective application of the Law, and the US has 3 possibly 4 tiered systems depending on Class strata from what I can tell. The first level applies to the affluent and politically connected classes that get to legalize their crimes and somehow still get rewarded for their behavior with continued contracts with Government. FAANG workers have to recognize they are part of the problem: they work for employers who actively abuse privacy laws, labour laws, tax laws, and God only knows what other clandestine operations they have with military and intelligence agencies and yet its some sort of talking point that those people are proud to remind you of any chance they have that they belong to this class (of only vicariously) as though it had any merit or prestige. Until that sentiment changes, I doubt any well constructed from of oratory on HN is going to do much if anything to that end, its definitely a cultural and social issue and class and your affiliation to it seems to be a much bigger component than anything like skin colour or living in the right neighborhood, zip codes.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jrochkind1 6y ago
Agree with everything you say about prison. I think you are under-estimating the extent that many urban schools are preparing students for prison though, and have some structural features in common, even though of course schools aren't nearly as bad as prisons. Contemporary urban schools are often really terrible places, stockhousing and controlling children, preparing them to be stockhoused and controlled.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  But I think those schools are a clear example of why it's a hard problem. Urban schools could be great places if we ended their stockhousing and controlling programs - but any school that did that would see a massive drop in graduation rate, from all the students who don't value education and won't show up unless compelled. If the cost of nice, non-controlling urban schools is a 30% graduation rate, is that a price anyone's willing to pay? (And that's without touching the problem of actively violent, disruptive students, who would probably need to be expelled far sooner than they are to protect a non-controlling environment.)
ModernMech 6y ago
> The whole thing is an abomination. It serves no useful purpose to society to subject most criminals to prison The purpose of prison is not reform. It's not even punishment or deterrence. The purpose of prison in the US is: 1) First and foremost it is a profit center. Caging human beings is a multi billion dollar industry in the US. 2) A storage facility for political dissidents and out groups. We just make up laws to target certain groups we don't like, and use that as pretext to lock them away (you know, that pesky first amendment always getting in the way). 3) To reify the carve out in the 13th Amendment which states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Gotta keep slavery alive and well in the USA.
Supermancho 6y ago
It's important to distinguish between types of "prisons". Jails and more specifically, US county jails, are technically prisons if the sentence is long enough vs a short enough term in a proper prison - https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-the-difference-between-jail-and-prison-31513 https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-the-difference-bet... I believe some of these pictures in the school or prison are county jails, which are not horrific by any means. I could be wrong, of course.
trianglem 6y ago
Is it possible to ask for solitary confinement 100% of the time? I feel like I would do okay for at least one year that way. Especially since you do see a human at least once a day.
thegrimmest 6y ago
I'd like to express a controversial opinion. I am totally indifferent to the suffering of violent criminals. If you have consciously used violence against innocent people - if you have broken into an occupied home, if you have accosted people with weapons, committed sexual violence, or given drugs to children - then I would not object to your summary execution. In my eyes, the lives of people who make such choices are worth less than those of loyal pets, or innocent farm animals. It is clear that greed and longing for status fuels crime in our society. Violent criminals are not responsible providers with families who have simply fallen on hard times. They are people who make choices. And in my eyes it is these choices which dehumanize them. To be perfectly clear, I am not talking about thieves, destroyers of property, or people who sell drugs to adults. I'm only talking about people who use violence and violate consent. There is more than one effective method for penal administration. I think we should be taking a closer look at Japan. Its penal system is notoriously harsh, with criminals who have served time in both the US and Japan unanimously agreeing that Japanese prison is a far more terrible experience. Japan is also a remarkably peaceful society, with a remarkably low recidivism rate. The mistake that US prison administration makes is that it allows prison criminal culture to develop and prosper. In Japan no such thing is permitted. People are required to maintain strict order, and are not permitted to socialize or speak freely. Beatings and solitary confinement are routine. Conversely, prison records are sealed, and once prisoners have served their time they are free to find work and integrate into society. There are many groups of people who deserve our limited sympathy before violent criminals.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't post this sort of internet cowboy comment here. "I would not object to your summary execution" is not curious conversation, it's inflated rhetoric that will only provoke worse from others. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: Also, it looks like you've only been commenting on HN for the purposes of ideological battle. That's not what this site is for, it's against the rules, and we ban such accounts. Please review the guidelines.
  - thegrimmest 6y ago
anonyfelon 6y ago
I came here to comment similar to what you've already said. Prison was HELL.
benibela 6y ago
There are schools as bad as prison, read about Elan
MikeUt 6y ago
> most popular entertainment on prisons downplays how bad it really gets [..] Why don't we have more outrage against this outdated institution created out of 1600 era values? You answered your own question.
thelettere 6y ago
I've been to both as well and this is a personal anecdote with little generizability. The experience in different US prisons (and jails for that matter) differs widely - just like schools. Federal prisons are well known to be cake walks. State prisons are the worst but again differ widely - even within the same state. Typically those with different types of crimes and sentences and ages get put in different prisons, so as you can imagine a nonviolent offender under 35 with a 10 year or less sentence gets sent to a much better prison then a serial killer who's 51 with a life sentence. So take that dude's experience with a grain of salt. The state wants you to believe prison is hell, but as with most things it depends. The positive experiences I had in prison changed my life. If I had a choice between my prison experience and my experience as a master's student all over again I'd choose prison every time a million times over.
Siira 6y ago
> solitary confinement If the environment is so violent, why wouldn’t you want solitary confinement? (Is there a downside?)
- runarberg 6y ago
  Yes there is a huge downside. Solitary confinement is torture by every definition of the word torture. In fact I think every humanitarian organization has solitary confinement on their list of common torture practices. Excessive and prolonged solitary confinement will pretty much result in the death of the individual. The psychological damage inflected upon the victim will be so great that they will return another person (and not in the reformed sense). Humans are social animals, to deprive us of company for a prolonged periods is as dangerous to our health as depriving us of food. We need love to survive just as we need warmth.

mbrodersen 6y ago

The US prison system is purposely designed to be as violent, demeaning, and inhuman as possible. So you can argue that it works perfectly the way it was designed to work. The official theory is that it somehow will reduce crime. That hasn’t happened obviously. And yet the system continues. So obviously the real purpose of the US prison system is not to reduce crime. Other countries has for years shown how to effectively reduce crime without torturing people.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

>As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Now why don't people apply this to everything else? You think HN knows what it's like to be a plumber('s apprentice), janitor, drive a floor buffer for min-wage, etc?

Chris2048 6y ago
You think they don't? No working class backgrounds on HN?

nolongerlowres 6y ago

Thank you for posting this. I couldn’t believe the other comments trying to equate schools with prison. It’s unbelievable how we treat prisoners in the US. I wish there was more I could do than vote and donate to causes like the ACLU. Starting to realize that my beliefs are in the minority re: how to treat fellow countrymen, even those who have committed crimes.

throwaway998662 6y ago
I think it's because we as people tend to speak from our experiences, and I do agree that school is more authoritarian than it should be. I'm not sure what else you can do :( it's a really big systemic issue. I think we just need more awareness, first? Social life in prison involves having "friends" who can any day decide to try and rob or fight you (both happened to me with my closest "friend"). Nobody has real friends. It's dog eat dog, you lose the ability to trust, and don't have any trusting social connections. That's extremely painful. When you talk to people on the outside, every prisoner just tries to deceive them into thinking things are just dandy: I'm not sure why that happens, but it means those connections aren't real either. It's all so much worse psychologically than is conveyed in popular media. We don't know how to quantify psychological suffering though; as a society we rather put people through huge amounts of that than some visible physical suffering (which, again, is probably strongly preferable to the criminal). Unfortunately most of the people suffering in the prison system are poor, so we don't hear what they have to say. If you're rich, you can afford your own lawyer and get a much better plea deal, and get out quickly. It's also very racist: you will really understand Black Lives Matter when you meet a black father who was sentenced to 30 years in prison for a nonviolent drug offense, and realize there are 100,000s - millions of people in the exact same situation: it's destroying entire communities. I've seen the way black people who a judge has never seen before are villified from their appearance: go to a courtroom near you if you don't believe me, it's shocking. I'm talking about in San Francisco, not even a rural area. Anyways, thank you for your empathy. I wish more people understood that criminals will commit less crime if they're forgiven and accepted by society, instead of villified. And it's also the decent thing to do. Prisons are bad cultures because the small number of actual bad actors push everything to this shitty equilibrium: most prisoners individually have a lot of shame about their crimes, and as strong a moral code as the average person. Some definitely do not: and it's hard for the justice system to make the distinction. All things which are hard to believe until you have some real world experience with these things...

samename 6y ago

Thank you for your perspective. Hopefully one day we can change this system.

20after4 6y ago
Keep dreaming. You’ve got to be one hell of an optimist to hold onto that hope at this point.
- runarberg 6y ago
  I bet John Brown was called “one hell of an optimist” when calling for the abolition of slavery in the 1850s.

qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago

Bring back flogging! Another great way to deal with male criminals would be to cut their balls off. Solves the root problem.

dang 6y ago
We ban accounts that post like this. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the intended spirit of the site.
- qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago
  I didn't mean to be snarky, that is my unironic take. Our current prison system delivers a horrible punishment, but in a way people can pretend it's not occurring. It would be better to deliver a less horrible punishment and make it public so people know it is occurring. Not only would this be more humane, it also improves the deterrent value of punishment. With the current justice system, people can pretend like doing crimes makes them into some sort of badass. Public humiliation / castration helps clarify that. The goal is to deter crime effectively with as little suffering as possible.
  - dang 6y ago
    The issue wasn't snark. You broke the rule against flamebait, as well as this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." HN users need to follow all the rules, not just one of them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago
      Alright, sorry

thayne 6y ago

I know a judge who has said the US "corrections" system is not designed to correct criminals and prevent future crimes. It's designed to punish people.

mbrodersen 6y ago
That is blindingly obvious. The US culture has an undercurrent of cruelty against the poor/people of colour. The prison system is a prime example of this.
throwaway998662 6y ago
Yeah completely agree that's what it's designed for, but to what end? What goal do we think the punishment achieves? The only useful thing about it IMO is preventing truly dangerous/sick people from interacting with the rest of society. Most prisoners are not that
- qwtel 6y ago
  When you are the victim of a crime, you want the perpetrator to be punished. Typically to a larger extent than reasonable. That's the point. The fact that the state does it for you according to predefined rules, already is the civilised aspect. It's telling that liberals naturally take the perspective of perpetrator. Perhaps they remidn them of themselves?
  - plutonorm 6y ago
    No. It's because we possess empathy.
    - qwtel 6y ago
      not for those who were wronged in the first place
      - throwaway998662 6y ago

tw25605867 6y ago

> Why don't we have more outrage against this outdated institution created out of 1600 era values? I can be outraged at both outdated, dehumanizing institutions.

wisty 6y ago

> it doesn't serve as a deterrent (based on talking to ~50 prisoners about this) 1. Talking to prisoners doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for the rest of the population. This is a massive selection bias, it's like saying diet and exercise doesn't work because morbidly obese people say it doesn't work for them. 2. People sometimes lie (often first to themselves), especially about their motivations. This is like an angry teenager yelling that all their rebellion is because of their parents' rules, it's often a self-serving rationalisation. 3. There's no doubt that the US prison system is a bit weird if you compare it to the rest of the world.

throwaway998662 6y ago
Most people who end up in prisoners in the USA are reoffenders. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world and very high crime rates. So when I talk about deterrence I'm mostly talking about reoffenders. I.e, the prisoners I talked to coming back. I think they're more likely to commit crimes after prison, not less!! Do you think people would lie, in a heavily monitored prison, about wanting to never come back to prison because they'll "die in glory" in a gun fight against the cops next time so they can't be arrested? Or about becoming a drug kingpin? Sounds like you think I'm saying these people were claiming nice things about themselves, but really they're mostly claiming quite bad things if it makes me think they're going to be back and were strongly negatively influenced by peers in prison. On the topic of regular people who prison serves as a deterrent for, I'd look at other countries where crime rates are lower without the same hideous institution. Clearly it's not just horrible prisons which prevent noncriminals from committing crime, since so many countries don't have that? I guess that's up for debate.
- Merman_Mike 6y ago
  Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments. If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?
  - KittenInABox 6y ago
    Generally, deterrents such as extremely harsh prison sentences have no evidence that they're actually effective. Many nonviolent crimes such as the kind associated with addiction will occur as a result the illness. Other violent crimes such as murder occur compulsively, and therefore do not respond to rational thinking such as "jail really sucks bro". Think of it like this though: If harsh, dehumanizing punishments were an effective deterrent, crimes would've gone up when we stopped chopping off people's limbs for stealing, and in fact we'd have more stealing in modern day than at any time in history because public mutilation is not an acceptable punishment now.

tolbish 6y ago

> Why don't we have more outrage against this outdated institution created out of 1600 era values? Americans with nice lives, particularly the types to frequent HN, are insulated from the effects of our criminal justice system. Concern for schooling takes precedence.

Bostonian 6y ago
Americans who live in low-crime areas are somewhat insulated from criminal justice "reform" that sets criminals free and increases crime rates.
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  [This comment previously contained an assumption that reducing poverty reduces crime rates. A poster commented that there isn't as much of a correlation as this comment stated so I removed it.]
  - Bostonian 6y ago
    Poverty rates fell in the 1960s, but crime rose.
    - KittenInABox 6y ago
      After doing a brief amount of research, you're probably right. Thank you for correcting me.
    - aegis4244 6y ago
      Leaded gas.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Americans with nice lives, particularly the types to frequent HN, are insulated from the effects of our criminal justice system. Concern for schooling takes precedence. It's called selective application of the Law, and the US has 3 possibly 4 tiered systems depending on Class strata from what I can tell. The first level applies to the affluent and politically connected classes that get to legalize their crimes and somehow still get rewarded for their behavior with continued contracts with Government. FAANG workers have to recognize they are part of the problem: they work for employers who actively abuse privacy laws, labour laws, tax laws, and God only knows what other clandestine operations they have with military and intelligence agencies and yet its some sort of talking point that those people are proud to remind you of any chance they have that they belong to this class (of only vicariously) as though it had any merit or prestige. Until that sentiment changes, I doubt any well constructed from of oratory on HN is going to do much if anything to that end, its definitely a cultural and social issue and class and your affiliation to it seems to be a much bigger component than anything like skin colour or living in the right neighborhood, zip codes.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jrochkind1 6y ago

Agree with everything you say about prison. I think you are under-estimating the extent that many urban schools are preparing students for prison though, and have some structural features in common, even though of course schools aren't nearly as bad as prisons. Contemporary urban schools are often really terrible places, stockhousing and controlling children, preparing them to be stockhoused and controlled.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
But I think those schools are a clear example of why it's a hard problem. Urban schools could be great places if we ended their stockhousing and controlling programs - but any school that did that would see a massive drop in graduation rate, from all the students who don't value education and won't show up unless compelled. If the cost of nice, non-controlling urban schools is a 30% graduation rate, is that a price anyone's willing to pay? (And that's without touching the problem of actively violent, disruptive students, who would probably need to be expelled far sooner than they are to protect a non-controlling environment.)

ModernMech 6y ago

> The whole thing is an abomination. It serves no useful purpose to society to subject most criminals to prison The purpose of prison is not reform. It's not even punishment or deterrence. The purpose of prison in the US is: 1) First and foremost it is a profit center. Caging human beings is a multi billion dollar industry in the US. 2) A storage facility for political dissidents and out groups. We just make up laws to target certain groups we don't like, and use that as pretext to lock them away (you know, that pesky first amendment always getting in the way). 3) To reify the carve out in the 13th Amendment which states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Gotta keep slavery alive and well in the USA.

Supermancho 6y ago

It's important to distinguish between types of "prisons". Jails and more specifically, US county jails, are technically prisons if the sentence is long enough vs a short enough term in a proper prison - https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-the-difference-between-jail-and-prison-31513 https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-the-difference-bet... I believe some of these pictures in the school or prison are county jails, which are not horrific by any means. I could be wrong, of course.

trianglem 6y ago

Is it possible to ask for solitary confinement 100% of the time? I feel like I would do okay for at least one year that way. Especially since you do see a human at least once a day.

thegrimmest 6y ago

I'd like to express a controversial opinion. I am totally indifferent to the suffering of violent criminals. If you have consciously used violence against innocent people - if you have broken into an occupied home, if you have accosted people with weapons, committed sexual violence, or given drugs to children - then I would not object to your summary execution. In my eyes, the lives of people who make such choices are worth less than those of loyal pets, or innocent farm animals. It is clear that greed and longing for status fuels crime in our society. Violent criminals are not responsible providers with families who have simply fallen on hard times. They are people who make choices. And in my eyes it is these choices which dehumanize them. To be perfectly clear, I am not talking about thieves, destroyers of property, or people who sell drugs to adults. I'm only talking about people who use violence and violate consent. There is more than one effective method for penal administration. I think we should be taking a closer look at Japan. Its penal system is notoriously harsh, with criminals who have served time in both the US and Japan unanimously agreeing that Japanese prison is a far more terrible experience. Japan is also a remarkably peaceful society, with a remarkably low recidivism rate. The mistake that US prison administration makes is that it allows prison criminal culture to develop and prosper. In Japan no such thing is permitted. People are required to maintain strict order, and are not permitted to socialize or speak freely. Beatings and solitary confinement are routine. Conversely, prison records are sealed, and once prisoners have served their time they are free to find work and integrate into society. There are many groups of people who deserve our limited sympathy before violent criminals.

dang 6y ago
Please don't post this sort of internet cowboy comment here. "I would not object to your summary execution" is not curious conversation, it's inflated rhetoric that will only provoke worse from others. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: Also, it looks like you've only been commenting on HN for the purposes of ideological battle. That's not what this site is for, it's against the rules, and we ban such accounts. Please review the guidelines.
- thegrimmest 6y ago

anonyfelon 6y ago

I came here to comment similar to what you've already said. Prison was HELL.

benibela 6y ago

There are schools as bad as prison, read about Elan

MikeUt 6y ago

> most popular entertainment on prisons downplays how bad it really gets [..] Why don't we have more outrage against this outdated institution created out of 1600 era values? You answered your own question.

thelettere 6y ago

I've been to both as well and this is a personal anecdote with little generizability. The experience in different US prisons (and jails for that matter) differs widely - just like schools. Federal prisons are well known to be cake walks. State prisons are the worst but again differ widely - even within the same state. Typically those with different types of crimes and sentences and ages get put in different prisons, so as you can imagine a nonviolent offender under 35 with a 10 year or less sentence gets sent to a much better prison then a serial killer who's 51 with a life sentence. So take that dude's experience with a grain of salt. The state wants you to believe prison is hell, but as with most things it depends. The positive experiences I had in prison changed my life. If I had a choice between my prison experience and my experience as a master's student all over again I'd choose prison every time a million times over.

Siira 6y ago

> solitary confinement If the environment is so violent, why wouldn’t you want solitary confinement? (Is there a downside?)

runarberg 6y ago
Yes there is a huge downside. Solitary confinement is torture by every definition of the word torture. In fact I think every humanitarian organization has solitary confinement on their list of common torture practices. Excessive and prolonged solitary confinement will pretty much result in the death of the individual. The psychological damage inflected upon the victim will be so great that they will return another person (and not in the reformed sense). Humans are social animals, to deprive us of company for a prolonged periods is as dangerous to our health as depriving us of food. We need love to survive just as we need warmth.