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Somewhat famously, in an interview with BBC's Andrew Marr, Noam Chomsky[0] used COINTELPRO as an example of press subordination to power, by comparing their sel

Somewhat famously, in an interview with BBC's Andrew Marr, Noam Chomsky[0] used COINTELPRO as an example of press subordination to power, by comparing their self-adulation over uncovering Watergate (an attack on 50% of corporate/state power, the Democrats) to their lack of reporting and even awareness of COINTELPRO (an attack on a wide variety of largely powerless social movements and civil liberties groups). Knowledge of COINTELPRO was only achieved thanks to the burglary of an FBI office, with documents mailed to major newspapers, and only the Washington Post willing to run the story. The burglars[1] revealed themselves[2] only recently. [0] https://youtu.be/-34w0OUIOyw?t=961 https://youtu.be/-34w0OUIOyw?t=961 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Commission_to_Investigate_the_FBI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Commission_to_Inve... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/burglars-who-took-on-fbi-abandon-shadows.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/burglars-who-took-on-f...

api 6y ago
The fight against totalitarian communism is full of great examples of the principle that if you fight against an enemy there's a tendency to become that enemy. COINTELPRO is only one example. Another is the fact that we placed much of the US economy under at least indirect state control via the Cold War national security state in order to battle the evil of state controlled economies. I saw the same thing after 9/11 when there seemed to be a strong push for some kind of theocracy in the USA, albeit of a far lighter variety than was found in Afghanistan, and a general revival of ultra-right reactionary ideologies that somewhat resemble those of the 9/11 hijackers. We also surrendered a great deal of freedom (especially privacy) to battle those terrorists who supposedly hate our freedom. Edit: I can keep going... during WWII we put Japanese Americans in camps.
- voodootrucker 6y ago
  Not sure why the down votes. I've been joking for a while I'd like to see a sitcom where the main characters are an Islamic and domestic terrorist living together in New York while they execute their plots. A terrorist "odd couple" if you will. I think the characters could bond over a lot of shared ideals, despite their superficial differences. (And of course they'd have to be incompetent or it wouldn't be a funny.)
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lions
    - virgulino 6y ago
      This is a great movie. Odd but great.
      - mhh__ 6y ago
        That describes most of Chris Morris's work Brass Eye is his most outlandish creation but before that he did Jam which is (to quote the comments of the following YouTube video) "absurdly poignant" https://youtu.be/LhKla4MEstY https://youtu.be/LhKla4MEstY
        virgulino 6y ago
        Thanks for the tip, I will try to watch these two. Anyways, you made me look for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Morris_(satirist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Morris_(satirist) , and I'm shocked to learn that he is Denholm Reynholm, from the IT Crowd!
        buckminster 6y ago
        "My Wrongs 8245–8249 & 117" is weirder than Brass Eye. And brilliant.
        voodootrucker 6y ago
        wow, that is weird.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    I wonder if you might enjoy the first couple seasons of homeland? there are a lot of problems with the show, but in some ways it's a surprisingly charitable portrayal of islamic terrorists.
- Mister_X 6y ago
  "I can keep going... during WWII we put Japanese Americans in camps." Good reminder, but don't stop there, it wasn't only those of Japanese decent, to a much lesser extent it encompassed other ethnic groups, this should never be forgotten. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans "Internment of German resident aliens and German-American citizens occurred in the United States during the periods of World War I & World War II. ...a small proportion of Italian nationals and Italian Americans were interned... Unlike Italian Americans and Japanese Americans, German Americans have not received an official apology for these events."
maxerickson 6y ago
Isn't Watergate far more consequential? It's problematic that the FBI targets groups for poor reasons, but it doesn't result in much change to the country, it just unfairly harasses members of those powerless groups.
- klodolph 6y ago
  I’d say COINTELPRO is more consequential by far, and it’s not even close. You might ask questions like, “What happened to the Black Panthers?” Or the question, “Why are these groups powerless?”
- dundarious 6y ago
  It is somewhat tautological that Watergate is more consequential. 50% of private power has more power than relatively powerless groups, and powerful people run the country and the economy, so their concerns have more consequence. Even in this framing of "consequential", one can argue about the narrow range of consequences on offer by Democrats and Republicans, and the broad potential consequences of social movements, but I tend to agree with you. However, Chomsky's argument is that this "perfect experiment" of history, Watergate vs. COINTELPRO, reveals that "on the question of principles", Watergate shows that the press "think[s] that powerful people ought to be able to defend themselves", whereas "one tiny part of the COINTELPRO program was itself far more significant in terms of principle than all of Watergate, and if you look at the whole program, it's not even a discussion". This is to help dispel the notion that the press are adversarial, truth-seekers, thumbing their nose at authority. And the purpose of this argument isn't just to deflate the pompous self-esteem of the press, but also helps explain the press' _lack_ of adversarial, truth-seeking reporting on other matters of _extreme_ consequence, such as the Vietnam War and the first Gulf War, NAFTA, etc.
  - AndrewBissell 6y ago
    > It is somewhat tautological that Watergate is more consequential. 50% of private power has more power than relatively powerless groups, and powerful people run the country and the economy, so their concerns have more consequence. But whom amongst those powerful groups would have had any kind of serious stake in whether Nixon or Ford was president? As opposed to whether the Black Panthers continued with their free breakfast and housing programs?

api 6y ago

The fight against totalitarian communism is full of great examples of the principle that if you fight against an enemy there's a tendency to become that enemy. COINTELPRO is only one example. Another is the fact that we placed much of the US economy under at least indirect state control via the Cold War national security state in order to battle the evil of state controlled economies. I saw the same thing after 9/11 when there seemed to be a strong push for some kind of theocracy in the USA, albeit of a far lighter variety than was found in Afghanistan, and a general revival of ultra-right reactionary ideologies that somewhat resemble those of the 9/11 hijackers. We also surrendered a great deal of freedom (especially privacy) to battle those terrorists who supposedly hate our freedom. Edit: I can keep going... during WWII we put Japanese Americans in camps.

voodootrucker 6y ago
Not sure why the down votes. I've been joking for a while I'd like to see a sitcom where the main characters are an Islamic and domestic terrorist living together in New York while they execute their plots. A terrorist "odd couple" if you will. I think the characters could bond over a lot of shared ideals, despite their superficial differences. (And of course they'd have to be incompetent or it wouldn't be a funny.)
- mhh__ 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lions
  - virgulino 6y ago
    This is a great movie. Odd but great.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      That describes most of Chris Morris's work Brass Eye is his most outlandish creation but before that he did Jam which is (to quote the comments of the following YouTube video) "absurdly poignant" https://youtu.be/LhKla4MEstY https://youtu.be/LhKla4MEstY
      - virgulino 6y ago
        Thanks for the tip, I will try to watch these two. Anyways, you made me look for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Morris_(satirist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Morris_(satirist) , and I'm shocked to learn that he is Denholm Reynholm, from the IT Crowd!
      - buckminster 6y ago
        "My Wrongs 8245–8249 & 117" is weirder than Brass Eye. And brilliant.
        voodootrucker 6y ago
        wow, that is weird.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  I wonder if you might enjoy the first couple seasons of homeland? there are a lot of problems with the show, but in some ways it's a surprisingly charitable portrayal of islamic terrorists.
Mister_X 6y ago
"I can keep going... during WWII we put Japanese Americans in camps." Good reminder, but don't stop there, it wasn't only those of Japanese decent, to a much lesser extent it encompassed other ethnic groups, this should never be forgotten. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans "Internment of German resident aliens and German-American citizens occurred in the United States during the periods of World War I & World War II. ...a small proportion of Italian nationals and Italian Americans were interned... Unlike Italian Americans and Japanese Americans, German Americans have not received an official apology for these events."

maxerickson 6y ago

Isn't Watergate far more consequential? It's problematic that the FBI targets groups for poor reasons, but it doesn't result in much change to the country, it just unfairly harasses members of those powerless groups.

klodolph 6y ago
I’d say COINTELPRO is more consequential by far, and it’s not even close. You might ask questions like, “What happened to the Black Panthers?” Or the question, “Why are these groups powerless?”
dundarious 6y ago
It is somewhat tautological that Watergate is more consequential. 50% of private power has more power than relatively powerless groups, and powerful people run the country and the economy, so their concerns have more consequence. Even in this framing of "consequential", one can argue about the narrow range of consequences on offer by Democrats and Republicans, and the broad potential consequences of social movements, but I tend to agree with you. However, Chomsky's argument is that this "perfect experiment" of history, Watergate vs. COINTELPRO, reveals that "on the question of principles", Watergate shows that the press "think[s] that powerful people ought to be able to defend themselves", whereas "one tiny part of the COINTELPRO program was itself far more significant in terms of principle than all of Watergate, and if you look at the whole program, it's not even a discussion". This is to help dispel the notion that the press are adversarial, truth-seekers, thumbing their nose at authority. And the purpose of this argument isn't just to deflate the pompous self-esteem of the press, but also helps explain the press' _lack_ of adversarial, truth-seeking reporting on other matters of _extreme_ consequence, such as the Vietnam War and the first Gulf War, NAFTA, etc.
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  > It is somewhat tautological that Watergate is more consequential. 50% of private power has more power than relatively powerless groups, and powerful people run the country and the economy, so their concerns have more consequence. But whom amongst those powerful groups would have had any kind of serious stake in whether Nixon or Ford was president? As opposed to whether the Black Panthers continued with their free breakfast and housing programs?