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Tesla Service Centers Are Preventing Delivery Refusals in Weird Ways
- rmason 6y agoThis intrigues me as it appears that Tesla is shipping their production mistakes to China. Things work differently in Michigan. Ford deliveries of the new F-150 pickup trucks were held up as they shipped them to a lot outside the city where non-union help fixed the manufacturing defects. This is how the Big 3 operates fixes manufacturing defects.
- analog31 6y agoI wonder if there's some kind of monkey business going on with being able to maintain production and shipping numbers by "shipping" to some intermediate location. I grew up south of Detroit and remember a time period when Detroit Metro Airport was being used as a storage facility for acres and acres of excess new car inventory.
- myself248 6y agoIt's more about keeping the line running. The line has a fixed throughput, and if it stops, it's hard to catch up. It's a stupendously expensive thing, staffed with a similarly-expensive complement of workers. Rework in the yard, on the other hand, is "soft", it can can be parallelized across as many workers as you can deploy, and they're usually contractors so you only bring them in when you need them. So if cars can be finished enough to roll 'em through end-of-line and then into yard hold, that's what you do. Clean it up as soon as possible of course, but whatever you do, don't stop the line.
- garyfirestorm 6y agoThe official term is yard hold. This is nightmare for any engineer who’s part is responsible for yard hold. The vehicles are made, but not allowed to be shipped to a dealership. And everyone’s breathing down your neck unless the issue is fixed and they are allowed to leave. Issues can be anything from simple part squeaking to major design flaw. Each vehicle is test driven over a course before the manufacturing teams give it a ‘ship it’ tag. Door fit is a major issue for anyone and everyone. You simply cannot engineer doors to fit right, the assembly line guys always have to pull it, twist it and ‘align’ it. Tolerances exist, but the tighter you go the more parts you’ll reject, the more the cost of that part will be i.e. cost of your car will go up. Everything can be fixed and it’s never too late, the only problem is the cost of the fix. The later in production a fix is issued, the higher is the cost.
- beamatronic 6y agoHow does Toyota do it? Their doors seem to fit.
- klodolph 6y agoThere are a lot of differences in the way Toyota manufactures cars compared to, say, typical US manufacturers and the differences are extensively studied in the literature. These techniques have been adapted to other fields, even software development. If you ever heard the term “kanban board”, well, that system is based on Toyota’s manufacturing system. One of the principles of Toyota’s process is that they will stop the assembly line to fix defects. This sounds simple, but other manufacturers will keep the assembly line moving, putting pressure on workers to complete their steps faster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way One of the classic case studies is the Fremont Assembly plant in Fremont, California, which was run by GM until 1982 when it closed due to production problems. It was considered an embarrassment to the US automotive industry. Cars from the Fremont plant would come off the assembly line with major defects and they couldn’t be shipped to dealers. When I say “major defects”, think “this car can’t be shipped to a dealer, because it is missing a door.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Assembly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Assembly Toyota needed to manufacture vehicles in North America and created a joint venture with GM called NUMMI, which reopened the plant in 1984—manufacturing both GM and Toyota vehicles. The existing workforce was sent to Japan to learn Toyota’s manufacturing system. The defect rate dropped dramatically after Toyota’s involvement. GM attempted to take what they learned from Toyota and bring it to other factories in the US, but failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI For various reasons, the plant shut down in 2010. It is now a Tesla plant.
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago> For various reasons, the plant shut down in 2010. It is now a Tesla plant. It probably wasn't intended that way, but that's such a beautiful irony. Similar to the dark humor of writing of Catch 22 and other books. Describe all the technological and managerial achievements and progresses of the system that is supposedly so much better than the one mentioned before (Tesla), and how it documentedly better, and produces so many good results and tolerating so many struggles, only to find out that it still was replaced by none other than Tesla. I guess they bet on the things that mattered even more.
- propogandist 6y agoFor any interested in the China Gigafactory story > Giga-Sweatshop Meets Corporate Overlords: an Exclusive Look Into How Tesla China Runs its Shanghai Gigafactory 3 https://en.pingwest.com/a/8154 https://en.pingwest.com/a/8154
- Rebelgecko 6y agoHow is it acceptable to deliver a car with doors that don't close?
- userbinator 6y agoMore curiously, how is it acceptable to even let that leave the factory? This is just pure WTF!?: They said the car was too heavy for its suspension components. Both the lower and upper wishbone in my Model X cracked due to the heavy weight. EVs are new so one could expect some roughness around those parts, but the basics like body/frame/suspension have been around for more than half a century. I wonder if you went to buy a car 60-70 years ago, from one of the Big Three, what were the chances of getting one with such defects?
- t0mas88 6y agoTesla is a great software company with unique battery technology, but they are in no way a good car company. Even the expensive model S has terrible build quality compared to the entry level models of the typical German brands. I'm curious whether they can fix this on time, because VW is making progress on the EV side of things and several other big car brands aren't far behind.
- carlhjerpe 6y agoCould you point me in the direction where I can read about the unique battery technology? Charging "Li-.*" is a solved problem[1], within the same chemistry they're essentially all the same, except binning. The fact that the car doesn't fully discharge or fully charge unless asked to is nothing revolutionary. I'm a nonbeliever obviously, my opinion is that their only truly unique features is the inflated stock price. 1: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium...
- pengaru 6y agoAnode materials vary, and last I looked Tesla had a unique recipe in that department making their batteries less costly than the competitors, which I imagine enables more cells at similar cost. IIRC they used less cobalt.
- WWLink 6y agoSome of those concerns look legit. Some of them seem like incredible nitpicking. I need to go try a Lexus or something so I can appreciate what a truly perfect car is like lol.
- miked85 6y agoIt may seem like nitpicking, but these defects wouldn't be acceptable or shipped to dealerships with cheaper economy cars.
- Andys 6y agoAnecdotally, brands offering excellent service ship worse products out of the box. Any defects are fixed quickly by the service network. Mass-produced economy brands can't afford to have any returns. The service network is poor to non-existent.
- woah 6y agoIncredibly hard to find a mechanic capable of fixing a Honda Civic
- WWLink 6y agoThe crease in the seat leather? I don't think any non-luxury brand would bother with that.
- miked85 6y agoI am pretty sure they would, though I am not sure how common leather is in an economy car.
- 1970-01-01 6y agoManufacturing in a nutshell is the Good - Fast - Cheap triangle. You can't have all 3. Elon's words and his results are in different corners.
- techsupporter 6y ago> With so many bitter stories to share about his Tesla experience, Chan said he likes the cars despite how the company treated him over these years. This mindset just baffles the hell out of me. Why? Just...why? You're paying a staggering amount of money for something that's broken from the start and the seller's response is "well, that sucks, doesn't it?" and you turn around and still like what you got sold? All of the hassle involved in buying a car, new or used, is a big reason why my family didn't replace our last one when it went out of service. It's disappointing that an "all-new entrant" to the automaker scene like Tesla falls into the same sort of take-it-or-leave-it stuff that used car lots have long been known for.
- rconti 6y agoI remember being so disappointed, when I was finally able to buy my first-ever new car, to find out that you CAN'T really get it the way you want it, not anymore. Too many decades of Americans buying whatever car happens to be sitting on the lot today (usually in silver paint with beige interior) means that most vehicles aren't available with any real selection of options (they're typically packaged together), no interesting paint colors, and dealers that are uninterested in finding what you actually want. It's staggering to me that people apparently feel they don't have any power to get what they want when laying out a huge chunk of money.
- shuckles 6y agoIt's possible to configure a car to your specifications, but you have to find a dealer willing to commit their order quota to it and wait a few months for the car to arrive. Do not expect much haggling if you take this path.
- Technically 6y agoWhat's the value of a dealership to the consumer?
- toast0 6y agoYes, but depending on the manufacturer, you might not have nearly as many options as you might like. And then it sometimes comes wrong anyway. Source: ordered a 2017 Chrysler Pacifica. Couldn't order 15" wheels with premium trim. Ordered a spare tire, and got the built-in vacuum instead (this worked out OK, the donut spare, ordered separately, fits under in the middle seat stowage, if you finagle it). Still would have prefered 15" wheels over 17" or whatever we had to order, but not enough to buy new wheels. Would not recommend buying that early in the model cycle, but that's somewhat separate from ordering; except that they had no Pacificas on the lot to sell anyway, so it wasn't too hard to convince them to order one.
- coolspot 6y agoRelevant - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17471324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17471324 Things that happen in Silicon Valley and also the Soviet Union: - waiting years to receive a car you ordered, to find that it's of poor workmanship and quality
- laurent92 6y ago“In 10 years ok. Morning or afternoon? — In 10 years what difference does it make? — I have the plumber in the morning.” (Russian jokes told by Reagan)
- rasz 6y agoPoland under Russian occupation: https://histmag.org/Rynek-motoryzacyjny-w-Polsce-1980-1989-cz.-1.-Co-jezdzilo-po-polskich-drogach-7965 https://histmag.org/Rynek-motoryzacyjny-w-Polsce-1980-1989-c... Translation: There were also extreme cases. Some of them were so sloppy that they prevented safe participation in road traffic. One of the readers of “Motor” received the FSO 1500, in which a factory defect in the body made its driving almost impossible. In the TV program “Kram”, aired on October 12, 1986, an interview was conducted with a man who found 41 defects in a new car he had bought. After consulting with an expert, it was found that there were 45 of them. There was an opinion that in order to drive the new Polonez without any problems, it was necessary to invest 100,000 zlotys in its renovation (~10% of total value). These cars, however, passed the zero inspection without any problems. The sentence of one of the engineers working at FSM can be considered the best justification for this: “People will buy any car”
- blahblahblogger 6y ago> It was not the first time Chan tried to buy a Model 3. In 2016, he placed a reservation for the EV and was charged seven times by Tesla. He canceled the reservation and only received all his money back three and a half years later – without any compensation or interest. Jeez, I was thinking of getting a model Y but some of these stories are scary. Also the video and images in the link show some pretty bad quality engineering.
- tempestn 6y agoI came here to quote this same line. And he still bought a car from them after that?! Tesla has also apparently just ended their money-back guarantee. Tough to imagine buying a new one now. Maybe a year or two old, where you can fully inspect it before committing. I don't know that I want to deal with their service either though. Fortunately there are a lot more EVs coming on the market now.
- oliwarner 6y agoExactly the same here. I'd never buy from a company that treats its customers with such distain.
- kurvi_sbogom_14 6y agoWhen your 01 Mercedes Benz with 400, 000 km car has smaller panel gaps than 202"1" Tesla, not ready yet fellas
- jacquesm 6y agoWe have a 1997 e class station in the family that just won't die. It will probably become a heirloom at some point.
- Erlich_Bachman 6y agoTurns out, a lot of people don't care about gaps, they care about breakthrough software technology and other things that Tesla gives to them.
- starpilot 6y agoJesus. Get a RAV4 Prime. Enough of this, "I love my Tesla, but..."
- baskire 6y agoThese issues were a major reason for me getting a non Tesla EV. Cheaper and it just “works”.
- Erlich_Bachman 6y agoAnd it has a battery that doesn't give you range anxiety? And you can charge it with 100kW+ on a supercharger? And it has the autopilot that can drive without interaction for hundreds of miles? And it will get software updates through wifi? All of those things just work?
- user_ 6y agoWhy the antagonism?
- Erlich_Bachman 6y agoNo antagonism. The comment claimed that they have bought an equivalent vechicle, I am wondering what that vechicle is, because to my knowledge there aren't really any good competitors to Tesla, if you consider the combination of the quality (-ish, it's decent), software, battery tech, driving performance and price.
- baskire 6y agoI didn’t claim I bought an equivalent vehicle. I bought a vehicle which just “works”. And I avoided all the Tesla build quality issues. I have a gas car / hybrid for the 100mile+ road trips we take once every 60 days. And I have an EV for the daily driver. Nissan Leaf has more than enough range (for daily driving) cost 6-7k, insurance is $20/month, and I’ve yet to have any maintenance issues.
- miked85 6y agoI was planning on buying a model 3 - that video is discouraging to say the least.
- dawnerd 6y agoWait until the start of the next quarter. Vast majority of the cars are fine, but just be aware what to look for. They will fix issues after the fact but it’s helpful to catch anything early on.
- karlp 6y agoBut what if something important but unseen is broken? You can't look for that and it's dangerous
- dawnerd 6y agoLike what though? Same could be said about any car manufacturer. Electronics wise the car will yell if there’s anything wrong so the only other thing I could think of would be something wrong with the chassis which hasn’t been an issue you see with Tesla’s. Most of the problems are cosmetic.
- GhostVII 6y agoThere is a class action lawsuit against Tesla because the model S and X suspension can prematurely break. They issued a recall in China, but not in the US.
- dawnerd 6y agoOkay but you’ll still find other car manufacturers doing recalls over major failures like that.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoTesla isn’t doing a recall is the point. They have to be sued instead. Disclosure: I’ve joined the suspension class action in the US.
- gfaure 6y ago> "We are not familiar with Hong Kong’s consumer protection laws, but they are probably the same ones China adopts." Despite recent events, I don't think this is necessarily a safe assumption. Many of Hong Kong's organisations, such as the ICAC (Independent Commission against Corruption) originate from the previous British administration and will be very different from any corresponding organisations in the PRC.
- dawnerd 6y agoThis is why I’ve been telling people to not order end of quarter and to instead order right at the start. You’ll wait a bit but you won’t have a rushed car or delivery. Part of why this keeps happening is Elon knows it’s possible to deliver x many cars so he pushes even if it hurts quality. They end up pulling it off and that ends up as justification to push harder. Probably cheaper in the long run to fix the cars post sale. I’ve had a few issues but they fixed without question.
- rich_sasha 6y agoI wonder how this will affect Tesla's long-term profitability and valuation. At the moment, the average Tesla on the road is very young - especially with the rapid growth in production rates. A car door that doesn't quite shut and lets water in is a major annoyance, but if they start breaking down left right and centre, that could crush them. Among established car brands, failure rates are a major decision factor. Or maybe it will turn out these are mostly superficial issues, who knows. I'm not convinced.