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Just a random but surprising statistic I found out last week: Most healthcare workers do not get annual flu shots. And 2 articles from a quick Google search co

by jasode 6y ago

Just a random but surprising statistic I found out last week: Most healthcare workers do not get annual flu shots. And 2 articles from a quick Google search coincidentally show the same ~60% skip flu shots for both USA and UK: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFluNews/story?id=6418974&page=1 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFluNews/story?id=641897... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-42634781 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-42634781 If I didn't see the above, my intuition would have made me guess that 90%+ of medical professionals get flu shots. It turns out I was way off. However, the reasons don't appear to be safety like this thread's article. One doctor said he doesn't get flu shots because the CDC makes a guess for what goes into the next season's flu shot and they're only ~50% correct. Since he got sick from the flu shot (even with the weakened virus) many years ago, he now avoids them. He still believes in the science of flu shot and not anti-vaxx but he personally chooses to not take it. EDIT: Apologize for posting bad statistic. Is the UK NHS statistic accurate? If so, why do most UK health workers avoid it?

Veraticus 6y ago
This is because the MLM/anti-vaccine market penetration into healthcare professionals (nurses especially) is unfortunately really high. As it turns out, not even a lifetime of training and knowledge can prevent being suckered by grifters.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  See another commenter. Somehow you can make the same answer without denigration. I don't believe in "anti-vaccine market penetration". My model I use is that ALL people are ignorant of most things that happen around them and only SOME people are knowledgeable about SOME of the things.
- ChefboyOG 6y ago
  To be clear, over 90% of healthcare workers working in hospitals are vaccinated against the flu every year: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm
nicolas_t 6y ago
I've met quite a few doctors that believe in homeopathy, being a doctor doesn't guarantee a strong statistical background or critical thinking unfortunately.
- anovikov 6y ago
  Easy to explain: being a doctor means understanding the dirty insides of profession thus know it is mostly bs. So naturally they don't trust it. Just like developers who do outsourcing, never do their own products because they know it's bs, and priests usually don't believe in God because they know dirty insides of the Church. In general, it is very hard to sell stuff if you buy into your own bs. Many otherwise great people failed for that, like Hitler - he lost because he started to believe his own propaganda.
- cultus 6y ago
  I was seeing a specialist once who was being shadowed by two med students on rotation, and the doctor started talking about chemtrails. The look on the med students' faces when he started going into that... Med school requires good analytical smarts and an excellent ability to retain information, but I'm quite convinced at this point that raw analyical ability has almost nothing to do with the ability to think critically to avoid insane beliefs. It's just not something that humans come built-in with.
- kurthr 6y ago
  Friend in SoCal recently called his primary care physician to ask about COVID testing because he and his wife had some possible symptoms (persistent cough). The doctor prescribed him a steroidal inhaler (he's had asthma before) and told him not to worry about it, but that symptoms persisted more than a week he could do an in person consult after he got back from vacation in Cabo. They got tested and quarantined anyway... and came up negative, but are still changing PCP.
drewry 6y ago
This is false. 90%+ of physicians regularly get flu shots every year. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm
- kurthr 6y ago
  Yes, exactly. It is often required as a condition of employment and (pre-COVID) in the hospital I am aware of, if you would/could not get the flu shot then you were required to wear a surgical mask at all times during that year. "By occupation, flu vaccination coverage was highest among physicians (98.0%), nurses (92.0%), pharmacists (90.6%), and nurse practitioners and physician assistants (88.8%) Flu vaccination coverage was lowest among other clinical health care personnel (81.7%), assistants and aides (72.4%), and nonclinical health care personnel (76.7%)."
nradov 6y ago
The CDC estimates that seasonal influenza vaccine effectiveness in recent years has varied from 10 – 60%. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.... I always get it because even 10% is better than zero and it doesn't seem to cause me any serious side effects.
ChefboyOG 6y ago
This is wildly inaccurate. The data cited in that ABC article, published in 2008, is taken from the 2006-2007 flu season. Over the last 14 years, much has changed. For example, in 2019-2020, over 80% of healthcare workers received the flu vaccine, including over 90% of those who work in hospitals. Source: CDC https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm
javagram 6y ago
> Since he got sick from the flu shot (even with the weakened virus) many years ago, he now avoids them As most/all flu shots don’t contain weakened virus (FluMist, the nasal spray, does contain weakened virus, but the shot uses either inactivated virus or viral proteins), this doctor seems a bit out to lunch? Moreover, it’s possible to get sick from another strain of flu or because the vaccine hasn’t yet become effective - it takes a week or two to be useful so an anecdote of getting sick before then doesn’t indicate anything about the flu shot.
- jasode 6y ago
  >(FluMist, the nasal spray, does contain weakened virus, but the shot uses either inactivated virus or viral proteins), this doctor seems a bit out to lunch? As personal anecdote, I get flu shot from Costco every year but this year was the first time I got nasal FluMist because they ran out of the needle version. This was also the only time I've gotten sick from it. Immediate runny nose and headache even before I left the store.
  - javagram 6y ago
    Interesting. I’ve never gotten the FluMist. Those side effects are apparently listed as normal, though it’s interesting to learn they can come on that quickly! I would have thought the immune system would take some hours to respond.
hannob 6y ago
Not saying this is good, but one should be aware that the flu shot is a bit of a special situation. Unfortunately it's a really poor vaccine compared to other commonly given vaccines, but it's an exception. The calculations how much the flu shot helps aren't pretty. You can also see this by the fact that in many european countries flu vaccination is not recommended for the whole population. Most vaccines have amazing effectiveness. If you take something like measles, it's basically "take 2 shots and you have a more than 90% chance of being protected for a lifetime". This is a much easier win than "you need to have a shot every year and the effectiveness is varying somewhere between 40-60%". Luckily it seems Covid vaccines are more like measles vaccines than like flu vaccines - at least in terms of effectiveness.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Why is the flu vaccine "really bad"? The average efficacy isn't necessarily high, but I don't see how that is enough to call it really bad. That gets balanced against the benefit it does have, the cost, the safety, etc.
  - hannob 6y ago
    Compared to most other common vaccines. I'll try to clarify that.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      I still think you go to far. For instance, this study found that there is usually a net savings: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4521706/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4521706/ (the study evaluates medical costs and productivity, it's not doing a sentimental analysis to get to the savings) Of course there is lots of room to improve a vaccine that is sometimes only 10% effective, but a reduction in costs to society by operating a vaccination program is a pretty good place to be starting from.
99_00 6y ago
>CDC makes a guess for what goes into the next season's flu shot and they're only ~50% correct. I hear this argument a lot and it doesn't make sense to me. If the CDC predicts strain A will be dominant and vacinates against it, shouldn't we expect strain A to be supressed?
DanBC 6y ago
> Most healthcare workers do not get annual flu shots. > And 2 articles from a quick Google search coincidentally show the same ~60% skip flu shots for both USA and UK: You've said "healthcare workers", but your link about the UK (it's about Scotland only) talks about all NHS workers. That's cleaners, accountants, cooks, etc. People who don't necessarily have any patient contact and it's not what we'd normally call a healthcare worker. For England, for frontline healthcare workers, the number was 78% for sept 2019 to feb 2020. Some NHS trusts do better than others. One got a rate as high as 94%. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/894751/Seasonal_influenza_vaccine_uptake_in_healthcare_workers__HCWs__in_Englan....pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

by jasode 6y ago

Veraticus 6y ago

This is because the MLM/anti-vaccine market penetration into healthcare professionals (nurses especially) is unfortunately really high. As it turns out, not even a lifetime of training and knowledge can prevent being suckered by grifters.

lmilcin 6y ago
See another commenter. Somehow you can make the same answer without denigration. I don't believe in "anti-vaccine market penetration". My model I use is that ALL people are ignorant of most things that happen around them and only SOME people are knowledgeable about SOME of the things.
ChefboyOG 6y ago
To be clear, over 90% of healthcare workers working in hospitals are vaccinated against the flu every year: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm

nicolas_t 6y ago

I've met quite a few doctors that believe in homeopathy, being a doctor doesn't guarantee a strong statistical background or critical thinking unfortunately.

anovikov 6y ago
Easy to explain: being a doctor means understanding the dirty insides of profession thus know it is mostly bs. So naturally they don't trust it. Just like developers who do outsourcing, never do their own products because they know it's bs, and priests usually don't believe in God because they know dirty insides of the Church. In general, it is very hard to sell stuff if you buy into your own bs. Many otherwise great people failed for that, like Hitler - he lost because he started to believe his own propaganda.
cultus 6y ago
I was seeing a specialist once who was being shadowed by two med students on rotation, and the doctor started talking about chemtrails. The look on the med students' faces when he started going into that... Med school requires good analytical smarts and an excellent ability to retain information, but I'm quite convinced at this point that raw analyical ability has almost nothing to do with the ability to think critically to avoid insane beliefs. It's just not something that humans come built-in with.
kurthr 6y ago
Friend in SoCal recently called his primary care physician to ask about COVID testing because he and his wife had some possible symptoms (persistent cough). The doctor prescribed him a steroidal inhaler (he's had asthma before) and told him not to worry about it, but that symptoms persisted more than a week he could do an in person consult after he got back from vacation in Cabo. They got tested and quarantined anyway... and came up negative, but are still changing PCP.

drewry 6y ago

This is false. 90%+ of physicians regularly get flu shots every year. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm

kurthr 6y ago
Yes, exactly. It is often required as a condition of employment and (pre-COVID) in the hospital I am aware of, if you would/could not get the flu shot then you were required to wear a surgical mask at all times during that year. "By occupation, flu vaccination coverage was highest among physicians (98.0%), nurses (92.0%), pharmacists (90.6%), and nurse practitioners and physician assistants (88.8%) Flu vaccination coverage was lowest among other clinical health care personnel (81.7%), assistants and aides (72.4%), and nonclinical health care personnel (76.7%)."

nradov 6y ago

The CDC estimates that seasonal influenza vaccine effectiveness in recent years has varied from 10 – 60%. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.... I always get it because even 10% is better than zero and it doesn't seem to cause me any serious side effects.

ChefboyOG 6y ago

This is wildly inaccurate. The data cited in that ABC article, published in 2008, is taken from the 2006-2007 flu season. Over the last 14 years, much has changed. For example, in 2019-2020, over 80% of healthcare workers received the flu vaccine, including over 90% of those who work in hospitals. Source: CDC https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/healthcareworkers.htm

javagram 6y ago

> Since he got sick from the flu shot (even with the weakened virus) many years ago, he now avoids them As most/all flu shots don’t contain weakened virus (FluMist, the nasal spray, does contain weakened virus, but the shot uses either inactivated virus or viral proteins), this doctor seems a bit out to lunch? Moreover, it’s possible to get sick from another strain of flu or because the vaccine hasn’t yet become effective - it takes a week or two to be useful so an anecdote of getting sick before then doesn’t indicate anything about the flu shot.

jasode 6y ago
>(FluMist, the nasal spray, does contain weakened virus, but the shot uses either inactivated virus or viral proteins), this doctor seems a bit out to lunch? As personal anecdote, I get flu shot from Costco every year but this year was the first time I got nasal FluMist because they ran out of the needle version. This was also the only time I've gotten sick from it. Immediate runny nose and headache even before I left the store.
- javagram 6y ago
  Interesting. I’ve never gotten the FluMist. Those side effects are apparently listed as normal, though it’s interesting to learn they can come on that quickly! I would have thought the immune system would take some hours to respond.

hannob 6y ago

Not saying this is good, but one should be aware that the flu shot is a bit of a special situation. Unfortunately it's a really poor vaccine compared to other commonly given vaccines, but it's an exception. The calculations how much the flu shot helps aren't pretty. You can also see this by the fact that in many european countries flu vaccination is not recommended for the whole population. Most vaccines have amazing effectiveness. If you take something like measles, it's basically "take 2 shots and you have a more than 90% chance of being protected for a lifetime". This is a much easier win than "you need to have a shot every year and the effectiveness is varying somewhere between 40-60%". Luckily it seems Covid vaccines are more like measles vaccines than like flu vaccines - at least in terms of effectiveness.

maxerickson 6y ago
Why is the flu vaccine "really bad"? The average efficacy isn't necessarily high, but I don't see how that is enough to call it really bad. That gets balanced against the benefit it does have, the cost, the safety, etc.
- hannob 6y ago
  Compared to most other common vaccines. I'll try to clarify that.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    I still think you go to far. For instance, this study found that there is usually a net savings: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4521706/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4521706/ (the study evaluates medical costs and productivity, it's not doing a sentimental analysis to get to the savings) Of course there is lots of room to improve a vaccine that is sometimes only 10% effective, but a reduction in costs to society by operating a vaccination program is a pretty good place to be starting from.

99_00 6y ago

>CDC makes a guess for what goes into the next season's flu shot and they're only ~50% correct. I hear this argument a lot and it doesn't make sense to me. If the CDC predicts strain A will be dominant and vacinates against it, shouldn't we expect strain A to be supressed?

DanBC 6y ago

> Most healthcare workers do not get annual flu shots. > And 2 articles from a quick Google search coincidentally show the same ~60% skip flu shots for both USA and UK: You've said "healthcare workers", but your link about the UK (it's about Scotland only) talks about all NHS workers. That's cleaners, accountants, cooks, etc. People who don't necessarily have any patient contact and it's not what we'd normally call a healthcare worker. For England, for frontline healthcare workers, the number was 78% for sept 2019 to feb 2020. Some NHS trusts do better than others. One got a rate as high as 94%. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/894751/Seasonal_influenza_vaccine_uptake_in_healthcare_workers__HCWs__in_Englan....pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...