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The Cruise Ship Suicides
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoThe cure can’t be worse than the disease. (We can’t allow our methods for mitigating covid 19 to be worse than suffering the disease)
- jolmg 6y agoMaybe you phrased that the wrong way, but your comment reads like it's saying that suicide can't be worse than isolation.
- caturopath 6y agoI read it as "suicide-inducing isolation is not necessarily preferable to risking COVID spread".
- jolmg 6y agoIf the isolation is the cure and covid is the disease, isn't that backwards? The comment says "can't be worse", so they're saying it is preferable, since it can't be worse. EDIT: Nevermind, I see now that "can't" is probably meant as "shouldn't" instead of "is impossible to".
- rualca 6y ago> I read it as "suicide-inducing isolation is not necessarily preferable to risking COVID spread". That interpretation is absurd and.far-fetched, as it's based on a couple of suicide cases that happened within a cruise ship whose crew was, for no reason, subjected to solitary confinement for months just because their employer felt no need to repatriate their crew. And even if we blindly assume those suicides were due to lockdowns, let's put in perspective that those two suicides are dwarfed by the close to two million covid19 deaths so far.
- caturopath 6y agoSo, I wasn't advocating the implication the original commenter might have been, but I think you're being pretty unreasonable in this post. > let's put in perspective that those two suicides are dwarfed by the close to two million covid19 deaths so far These aren't comparable numbers, so I don't see how it provides perspective. You're comparing the global number of deaths to the number of suicides within a tiny population. You have to use actual counterfactuals: you're currently comparing apples to oranges. You'd need to compare the number of ADDITIONAL deaths if these folks weren't confined to these two deaths by suicide or, more interestingly, the number of additional global deaths we would have seen without lockdowns (not that total!) to the the global spike in suicide, if there was one. (I didn't address your point about the employer's malfeasance because I don't feel like I have anything useful to say there. With that conceded, I am just responding to the other part of your post.)
- Godel_unicode 6y agoI believe the cure and disease they're referring to are lockdowns and covid, respectively.
- jolmg 6y agoI guess it's because the article's main topic is suicides that I thought the "cure" being referred to was suicide with the corresponding disease/reason being the isolation, the other main theme of the article.
- xwdv 6y agoThreats of suicide can’t be an excuse to let people go do whatever the fuck they want. Imagine that world.
- dahfizz 6y agoGod forbid people have freedom. Unimaginable.
- jessaustin 6y agoSurely you don't really believe this.
- FpUser 6y agoAnd what particularly horrible things they were contemplating to do may I ask? I would rather imagine and prefer the world where those who deprive people of their freedom without said people committing some crimes should be fucking jailed themselves.
- jliptzin 6y agoHow many person-years have we lost to COVID-19 and how many have we lost due to excess suicides in the last 12 months?
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoHow many years are lost because of the lockdown?
- sbarre 6y agoIf you add up all the years people get to keep living because they didn't die due to the lockdown, the answer to your question is a big negative number.
- the-dude 6y agoI tried to read the article, but it reads more like a novel than an article. So 1 case is described, then it is said 'half of dozen' other deaths which might be suspected suicides. I wonder, did they compare it to a baseline? For sure this is not the first time crew members commit suicide. I feel there is little 'meat' in the article.
- MSM 6y agoI have the same thoughts after reading it. In fact, the author expounds a little bit on your question later, saying: "An October 2019 study on the mental well-being of crew, commissioned by a group affiliated with the International Transport Workers’ Federation, the big maritime trade union, found that even before the pandemic about a fifth of mariners surveyed said they had suicidal thoughts." I'd be curious how the suicide rates compare to a non-pandemic year.. Regardless though, I feel like the juicy part of this article isn't the ~6 suspected suicides, it's how messed up the cruise ship companies are and how badly they botched communication in an attempt to cover their asses. They seem to be purposefully misinforming families about what happened with their loved ones. Some of these suspected suicides were found in their rooms and there doesn't seem to be closure as to what exactly happened. I can't imagine being in that situation.
- LorenPechtel 6y agoYeah. This isn't about Covid lockdowns, it's about the cruise ship companies really mishandling their employees. Being confined to your room for something like 22 hours/day is a very different issue if you don't have the internet to provide social contact.
- iJohnDoe 6y ago3...2...1... before someone complains about scrolling on the site. On topic, thanks for the article. I had no idea this happened. I didn’t know crew were stuck on the ships. I remember some ships weren’t allowed to dock and unload passengers during the height of the lock downs in March/April. However, I thought that when everyone was allowed off the ships that passengers and crew would be treated equally. This is very sad.
- sharken 6y agoAt least two of the mentioned deaths is confirmed in this source: https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/05/articles/disease/crew-member-dies-on-the-carnival-breeze-during-final-repatriation-cruise/ https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/05/articles/disease/crew-...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- freedomben 6y agoThis is heartbreaking, and by no means anomalous[1]. I know a number of people that have committed suicide during the lock downs. It is becoming a political topic, which is always risky to weigh in on publicly, but I do implore people to keep in mind when deciding on policy the law of unintended consequences. Everything in life is a series of trade offs, including the decision to lock down. Even if you believe the lock downs have been effective, they cause real damage and disruption to people's lives and mental health. It is serious and needs to be considered and weighed. What we have is a variation on the trolley problem, not a simple "save people with lock downs or not." I have no idea where the right balance is, but I've been shocked and saddened at the unwillingness of pro-lock-down people to consider the unintended consequences here. I have plenty of criticism for the anti mask crowd too, but this comment is already long enough. [1]: I have no scientific data to back this claim up. This is my opinion extrapolated from anecdata. Take with a grain of salt
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago>I know a number of people that have committed suicide during the lock downs. Really? Because the increase in suicides is quite small (8% is the last statistic I saw) and suicides in general are quite rare (~13 per 100,000 people).
- statquontrarian 6y agoRare in the sense that death is rare, but it's in the top 10 causes of death; about 50K per year: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
- tomjakubowski 6y agoJust to complete the loop for anyone curious, suicide accounted for 1.7% of all US resident deaths (2.8e6) in 2018.
- freedomben 6y agoYes I won't mention any details out of respect for privacy, but two former friends/co-workers, one person I was in the military with 15 years ago, as well as one family member. It's obviously not only lock downs that have caused this, but they certainly added to it. My close friend had his marriage explode and turn horribly nasty. She took the kids and he ended up alone in a studio apartment for months, and then killed himself. His marriage was obviously not great before but they were making it work. Being stuck in the house together all the time was too much. I'm guessing data on suicides due to lockdowns is as problematic as deaths due to covid because these are typically complex equations, but it would be interesting to see a study. In my small non-representative case study, suicides are up >200% from average. It's normally 1 every other year or so, except 2018 when there were 2 :'(
- tonystride 6y agoNot surprised at all. Worked in this industry out of college and couldn’t get out fast enough. It’s such a surreal environment, you know the toxicity that exists at every level but most people seem to be gleefully ignorant. Pretty beaches, drink packages, tons of food, don’t rock the boat just enjoy the ride like everyone else...
- ImaCake 6y agoIt's disgusting. And it is right there for the passengers to see if only they would be willing to admit the people serving them are almost slaves. I went on one cruise in my life, saw what others did not, and will never do something like it again. People shouldn't suffer for other's pleasure.
- dkdk8283 6y agoLockdowns are bullshit. Despair consequences will be felt for decades.
- kiba 6y agoLockdowns are not bullshit. They are effective, unless we did a half ass job.
- jrehor 6y agoWe did a half ass job. Everybody outside of East Asia did a half ass job or less.
- dkdk8283 6y agoEast asia is a police state: have you seen how they treated black people? If east asia is the model you want the USA to follow I’m afraid of the politics your generation will bring.
- sfmike 6y agoTaiwan Japan and Korea are police state? Didn't notice this. I noticed some cops helping a drunk guy into a tax. Also helping to find a lost cat. I guess this is what you mean by police state.
- djsumdog 6y agoIn South Korea the contact tracing led to people being found who were cheating on their partners. Some committed suicide. Moral questions aside, is that the world you want to live in? I personally don't even use an Android/eyePhone any more to avoid that dystopia.
- freeflight 6y agoLast time I checked no other country locks up more people, at higher rates, in prisons it won't even let the UN inspect [0], than the US does. In no other country is one as likely to end up in prison as in the US. Neither can I think of many countries where police are more heavily armed, literally militarized [1], while killing people at rates that can only be estimated, as there are no state or federal statistics on that. Still doesn't stop some US Americans from seeing the "police state" everywhere, except at home. Even after over ten thousand people were arrested, thousands injured, many maimed, protesting against exactly that police state and its violence that disproportionately affects black people and other minorities. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-idUSKCN0WA2B8 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-usa-torture-idU... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Support_Office https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Support_Office
- mcguire 6y ago1. Are the cruise ships isolated? 2. Why are the crews forced to stay on the ships? 3. If the ships are themselves isolated, why are the crews isolated? If they aren't, why can't the crews leave? I am strangely reminded of the airline flight that sat parked on the airport (at Chicago?) ramp, full of passengers, for over 24 hours years ago.
- jononor 6y agoPopular tourist destinations that had open boarder policies might have restricted them considerably. It is not uncommon that cruise personnel do not have a passport with rights to go into the country where they are docked. Many also plan on the cruise ship to return them home, and don't have funds for a flight home from mid-trip, even if they would be given right-of-passage. Some rent out their homes while they expect to be away working.
- AHASIC 6y agoNah, this is a bunch of crap. I worked on a carnival ship until the pandemic and I don't know where you pulled this answer out of, but it plain old wrong. The reason they can't leave is simply the American authorities won't let them leave the ship in order to prevent them from staying in the U.S and potentially finding a way to get a job there (legal or illegal). There wasn't a person on board who couldn't leave the ship because of documentation in normal circumstances, but with the virus happening, Carnival shit their pants and were blocked from having anyone leave for the aforementioned reason.
- FpUser 6y agoWhich proves once more that the governments do not really give a flying fuck about people and are willing to keep them in jail like conditions without those people committing any offence.
- AHASIC 6y agoI believe that the US citizens who working on board could leave, it's the NON-US citizens that the US didn't give a shit about. Hell, keeping the crew onboard meant that the crew will spend their money onboard for necessities like water, cigarettes, laundry and drinks, so that they could make a bank out of bad situation.
- coding123 6y ago> "Szaller’s face and arms were blue" It actually sounds more like one of the mysterious covid deaths that seem to not get reporting anymore.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- davidf560 6y agoTwo sentences after the part you quoted it says a belt was around his neck. Later on it mentions that he hung himself from the doorknob.
- newfeatureok 6y agoPeople love to blame the President or their Governor or whatever, but the reality is that American culture made COVID much worse than it needed to be. In general I see zero evidence that Americans at large would’ve followed a “proper lockdown”, by any definition. If you look at travel rates for each American airport this holiday season it’s pretty much confirmed. A company called StreetLight data put it at about 5% to 20% less. If anyone has data suggesting otherwise please, by all means, reply and let’s see. https://apnews.com/article/data-americans-thanksgiving-travel-209e88a889664ad5e25a81ee0d46201c https://apnews.com/article/data-americans-thanksgiving-trave... The question is how can we change American culture to be more collectivist?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- dahfizz 6y ago> The question is how can we change American culture to be more collectivist? The real question is should we make America more collectivist. Without a convincing answer you'll never get anywhere.
- newfeatureok 6y agoIn the context of COVID it’s pretty clear collectivist countries had citizens more likely to follow a lockdown and therefore have a better response to Covid. Just look at the countries that did best, it’s pretty clear. That being said I wouldn’t say collectivism is superior in general, but for Covid it was helpful
- jessaustin 6y agoWe're already quite collectivist. It's just that some of us are collecting more than others. The "CARES act" gave billionaires more than it gave the 99%. [0][1][2] This was version 2 of the egregious "bailouts" concocted in 2008-9, which were already giant transfers of wealth to the already rich. Every complication in these 10,000-page monstrosities is another place for lobbyists to hide loot for their employers. This is collectivism for the rich. A change to the sort of collectivism we're taught to fear would be a vast improvement. From the beginning of the pandemic, it was obvious that the just and effective way to "lockdown" would be to pay everyone to stay home. Give everyone who stays home money, for every week they stay home. That would have been more fair and less distorting to the economy. Unfortunately there are no lobbyists representing "everyone". [0] https://www.propublica.org/article/the-cares-act-sent-you-a-1-200-check-but-gave-millionaires-and-billionaires-far-more https://www.propublica.org/article/the-cares-act-sent-you-a-... [1] https://time.com/5845116/coronavirus-bailout-rich-richer/ https://time.com/5845116/coronavirus-bailout-rich-richer/ [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/14/coronavirus-law-congress-tax-change/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/14/coronavir...
- bluescrn 6y agoI was worried my parents would end up trapped on a 'plague ship' when this all started, they were on a cruise, but thankfully made it home OK with no infections on the ship. Being stuck in a tiny cabin, quite possibly with no internet access and minimal entertainment, must be awfully grim. We allow violent prisoners more freedom (social contact at meal times, exercise time, and visits), and even prison cells may be more spacious compared to some cruise ship cabins. Makes me thankful for my relatively comfortable lockdown time - alone in a relatively small apartment, but with plenty of home comforts and able to go outdoors for exercise.
- archsurface 6y agoThe lockdown fallout will emerge in the coming years, and I suspect the cure will have been worse than the disease.
- brink 6y agoOne question that's been on my mind lately, is if we find this to be true, if we even can; should we hold those in power responsible for their actions? Many leaders have taken Covid-19 as a free "Do whatever they want" card, with little regard to the hidden negative repercussions of their decisions.
- AnHonestComment 6y agoAuthoritarians have taken this as a chance to seize power without accountability — and have used it capriciously. That’s true regardless of what you think about the lockdowns, medically. I think we should hold them accountable now, so we don’t have to fight for our freedoms later.
- yters 6y agoThe net psychic cost of lockdowns might be more than if we'd taken the Swedish herd immunity route. We don't have a good way to account for such non tangible costs.
- sam_bristow 6y agoYou mean the Swedish herd immunity route that Sweden has now abandoned because it was a failure?
- Mediterraneo10 6y agoWhether the Swedish herd immunity route was a failure or not is completely subjective. If your highest priority is to prevent all deaths, then it was a failure. If you are comfortable accepting higher elderly mortality to keep public spaces open for young people, it was a perfectly fine policy and it was a pity for Sweden to be shamed by certain media and other countries into reversing it.
- yters 6y agoI wonder if it could have been modified to provide more protection for the elderly. In theory, herd immunity will be a safer outcome for the elderly.
- vmception 6y agoIts high time for people to see that many extroverts have extreme social and separation anxiety problems, that many extroverts and the rest of society projects onto everyone else exclusively. This is part of mental health awareness.
- seph-reed 6y agoI've been surprised that there hasn't been any societal "aha" moment about how awful the lives of misfit loners can be. Still the same old "get out there / be yourself" ideology... even as people who've never been isolated begin experience how bad it can be, there somehow still remains the belief that misfit loners would choose that over the obviously super easy socializing/popularity games that humans play.
- tsjq 6y agoThat's an interesting point you brought up.
- AHASIC 6y agoScrew it, I worked onboard a CCL ship when shit hit the fan, AMA.
- tehwebguy 6y agoFor how long were you not "free to leave"?
- AHASIC 6y agoA bit more than 3 months, but shit hit the fan even before the official date on which you couldn't leave. Being part of one of the central services on board a ship and dealing with guests and crew alike, there were major signs of incoming instability for 2-3 weeks before that. A LOT of shit never made it to the public or the CDC but was known internally. Hell, I could even go full Snowden and reveal the shit they did.
- tehwebguy 6y agoKeep going! Were any services offered to the crew to stay healthy? Were any of them legitimately helpful or was it all for show?
- AHASIC 6y agololmao, medical treatement for crew onboard is a whole book in itself... For the corona crisis, everything was done as basic and cost-saving as possible. Without the corona situation, god forbid you get fucking sick on the ship. They feed you up with some basic 2 pills they give to whoever is sick of anything. As far as I could notice, those were some stimulants with the end goal to have you back on duty as soon as possible. Even if you get sick, like legitimately sick and get treated, you end up with a mafia-style talk with your manager about "your recent performance". If you keep yourself off the sick train for the next months, you will get a pat on the back and a good review, where the 'recent performances' one from previously seemingly never happened. Truly disgusting practices.
- tsjq 6y agoThat's a heartbreaking article. I don't understand why the governments didn't issue waivers to repatriate the crew.
- AHASIC 6y agoMost of the crew come from poor countries who can't do much to help you. I once got stuck in Heathrow and couldn't get on my next flight to Germany, called the embassy of my european(non eu) country and they just told me to get another flight.
- njanirudh 6y agoWhy is everyone assuming that people want to live a long (80+ year) life? From an anicdodal perspective, many young people I including me want to burn their candle on both ends before something worse happens. I don't want to survive till 60s with cancer or something rioting me away just for the sake of it.
- ornornor 6y agoFor a truly eye opening read about how abysmal conditions are for crews at sea, how slavery still is very very real today at sea, and how most fish is caught illegally by crews of slaves, I highly recommend reading The Outlaw Ocean by Ian Urbina. It’s very sobering and after reading it, I’m absolutely not surprised that cruise lines get away with treating their staff like they did.
- user249 6y agothis is a test of code blocs