4 ms·

Solar and wind power, backed by batteries, would cover my usage 150%. I would really like to see more decentralized energy generation in the future. I've watch

by bserge 6y ago

Solar and wind power, backed by batteries, would cover my usage 150%. I would really like to see more decentralized energy generation in the future. I've watched some videos on Mongolia recently, they use solar panels in yurts in literally the middle of nowhere to charge batteries and watch satellite TV, which is amazing imo. If they can do it, so can we. Individual power generation for every house.

lnsru 6y ago
I like my dishwasher and washing machine, I don’t want live Mongolian way.
PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
(1) the panels have a lifespan of 25 years, far below the desirable value for the lifetime of any house, but we have barely begun to figure out how to recycle them (2) the level of battery usage this would imply has tremendous, mostly negative implications. A large chunk of contemporary batteries is just packaging (i.e. does not contribute to energy storage), and this would replicated across every house. While more easily recycled (in theory) than PV, we're still talking about a gigantic increase in highly distributed tricky-to-recycle material. That doesn't even get to the resources required to store sufficient energy for contemporary western/US lifestyles when solar or wind is unavailable. p.s. I live in a net-zero-PV-powered house, grid tied.
- Scoundreller 6y ago
  > (1) the panels have a lifespan of 25 years, far below the desirable value for the lifetime of any house, but we have barely begun to figure out how to recycle them meh if they lose 20% of their production after 25 years. Someone without a Homeowners' Association will put them on lumber Toblerones all across their yard and happily use them for another several decades. When do they hit 33% or less efficiency? That's when you shred them up, recover the metals and grind them into dust for concrete. They're mostly sand products anyway.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    I am relieved it is all going to be so easy.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      Well, I found this article with a nice infographic. Considering panels are mostly made out of glass it's not very difficult to recycle 95% of the materials. https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2017/10/the-opportunities-of-solar-panel-recycling https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2017/10/the-opportunities-...
      - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
        https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/solar/the-mounting-solar-panel-waste-problem/ https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/solar/t... The most difficult problem right now seems to be that the value of the recovered materials is less than the cost of recycling the panels.
        Scoundreller 6y ago
        That’s why I don’t recommend either, but instead decycling them. After what percentage of deficiency does solar become unviable? I’ll gladly take panels off anyone’s hands that have lost 75% of their efficiency and hodge-podge something together. If we lose 20% after 25 years, when do we lose 75%+?
- pedantsamaritan 6y ago
  (1) I'm not sure what you mean by 'desirable value for the lifetime of any house'. 25 years may be below the desirable lifetime for structural components of a house. But for appliances (which I'd consider solar panels closer too), 25-30 years is relatively long [0]. Even for the closely related structural-ish component of roofing material, 25-30 years is in the range [0]. Asphalt shingles (which are most common around me) are 15-30 years. There are longer lasting roofs, but they're on the same order of magnitude. Most of the residential solar payoff calculations I've seen (in the US) are in the 7-20 year range, which is less than 25-30 years. [0]: https://www.mrappliance.com/expert-tips/appliance-life-guide/ https://www.mrappliance.com/expert-tips/appliance-life-guide... [1]: https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-long-does-a-roof-last/ https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-long-does-a-roof-last/
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    Spanish tile roofing will last at least 80 years (possibly requiring a relay depending on the climate and how good a job is done with the first laying). With reasonable care, and luck in avoiding damage from above (e.g. trees), tile roofs could last 300 years or more. Slate varies depending on the region it comes from - Pennsylvania slate tends to suffer badly from freeze/thaw action, but some from New England can match the 200 year lifetime associated with Welsh slate. Similarly for stone. It is absolutely the case that these materials are not widely used in US construction. But they have lifetimes that more closely match the expected life of even a moderately well-built stud frame house. Metal roofing is rapidly gaining ground in some parts of the USA, and has a theoretical lifetime even beyond tile or slate. Unfortunately poor initial installs in many cases shortens the real-world life to something closer to high-end asphalt shingles. The appliance/panel comparison strikes me as apt in some ways, but not in others. While removing/replacing roof-mounted solar might be approaching ease of replacement that is in the same ballpark as a typical stove, refridgerator, washing machine, water heater or furnace, it is necessarily more laborious and more dangerous work, and involves a component that to all effects and purposes is totally passive. I wasn't commenting on the payoff time, but on the notion that we should be installing this relatively short-lived equipment everywhere we possibly can.
notahacker 6y ago
> they use solar panels in yurts in literally the middle of nowhere to charge batteries and watch satellite TV, which is amazing imo. > If they can do it, so can we. Weather is a huge variable. In summer my solar panels may generate all the power needs for my off-grid boat. In winter, I rely on the engine alternator and turning my fridge off.

by bserge 6y ago

lnsru 6y ago

I like my dishwasher and washing machine, I don’t want live Mongolian way.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago

(1) the panels have a lifespan of 25 years, far below the desirable value for the lifetime of any house, but we have barely begun to figure out how to recycle them (2) the level of battery usage this would imply has tremendous, mostly negative implications. A large chunk of contemporary batteries is just packaging (i.e. does not contribute to energy storage), and this would replicated across every house. While more easily recycled (in theory) than PV, we're still talking about a gigantic increase in highly distributed tricky-to-recycle material. That doesn't even get to the resources required to store sufficient energy for contemporary western/US lifestyles when solar or wind is unavailable. p.s. I live in a net-zero-PV-powered house, grid tied.

Scoundreller 6y ago
> (1) the panels have a lifespan of 25 years, far below the desirable value for the lifetime of any house, but we have barely begun to figure out how to recycle them meh if they lose 20% of their production after 25 years. Someone without a Homeowners' Association will put them on lumber Toblerones all across their yard and happily use them for another several decades. When do they hit 33% or less efficiency? That's when you shred them up, recover the metals and grind them into dust for concrete. They're mostly sand products anyway.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  I am relieved it is all going to be so easy.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Well, I found this article with a nice infographic. Considering panels are mostly made out of glass it's not very difficult to recycle 95% of the materials. https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2017/10/the-opportunities-of-solar-panel-recycling https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2017/10/the-opportunities-...
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/solar/the-mounting-solar-panel-waste-problem/ https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/solar/t... The most difficult problem right now seems to be that the value of the recovered materials is less than the cost of recycling the panels.
      - Scoundreller 6y ago
        That’s why I don’t recommend either, but instead decycling them. After what percentage of deficiency does solar become unviable? I’ll gladly take panels off anyone’s hands that have lost 75% of their efficiency and hodge-podge something together. If we lose 20% after 25 years, when do we lose 75%+?
pedantsamaritan 6y ago
(1) I'm not sure what you mean by 'desirable value for the lifetime of any house'. 25 years may be below the desirable lifetime for structural components of a house. But for appliances (which I'd consider solar panels closer too), 25-30 years is relatively long [0]. Even for the closely related structural-ish component of roofing material, 25-30 years is in the range [0]. Asphalt shingles (which are most common around me) are 15-30 years. There are longer lasting roofs, but they're on the same order of magnitude. Most of the residential solar payoff calculations I've seen (in the US) are in the 7-20 year range, which is less than 25-30 years. [0]: https://www.mrappliance.com/expert-tips/appliance-life-guide/ https://www.mrappliance.com/expert-tips/appliance-life-guide... [1]: https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-long-does-a-roof-last/ https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-long-does-a-roof-last/
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  Spanish tile roofing will last at least 80 years (possibly requiring a relay depending on the climate and how good a job is done with the first laying). With reasonable care, and luck in avoiding damage from above (e.g. trees), tile roofs could last 300 years or more. Slate varies depending on the region it comes from - Pennsylvania slate tends to suffer badly from freeze/thaw action, but some from New England can match the 200 year lifetime associated with Welsh slate. Similarly for stone. It is absolutely the case that these materials are not widely used in US construction. But they have lifetimes that more closely match the expected life of even a moderately well-built stud frame house. Metal roofing is rapidly gaining ground in some parts of the USA, and has a theoretical lifetime even beyond tile or slate. Unfortunately poor initial installs in many cases shortens the real-world life to something closer to high-end asphalt shingles. The appliance/panel comparison strikes me as apt in some ways, but not in others. While removing/replacing roof-mounted solar might be approaching ease of replacement that is in the same ballpark as a typical stove, refridgerator, washing machine, water heater or furnace, it is necessarily more laborious and more dangerous work, and involves a component that to all effects and purposes is totally passive. I wasn't commenting on the payoff time, but on the notion that we should be installing this relatively short-lived equipment everywhere we possibly can.

notahacker 6y ago

> they use solar panels in yurts in literally the middle of nowhere to charge batteries and watch satellite TV, which is amazing imo. > If they can do it, so can we. Weather is a huge variable. In summer my solar panels may generate all the power needs for my off-grid boat. In winter, I rely on the engine alternator and turning my fridge off.