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Definitely not be a software engineer. No one told me how incredibly low the social status is. EDIT: I guess it was suspicious that 99% of my high school circl
by person_of_color 6y ago
Definitely not be a software engineer. No one told me how incredibly low the social status is.
EDIT: I guess it was suspicious that 99% of my high school circle picked law or finance or business courses instead.
- telesilla 6y agoCouldn't you build something beautiful and useful and add to the world's treasures? That's not the mark of a low status person.
- spacechild1 6y agoHow many software developers actually get a chance to “add to the world's treasures“? Building yet another CRUD web app doesn't meet the definition in my book. I'm not saying it's not possible, but you have to be rather lucky.
- bonoboTP 6y agoHow many normal people get a chance to work at a top law firm in a fancy position just because they graduated from some law school? Better jobs are competed for strongly. Good stuff is never free and never available by default.
- b3kart 6y agoYep, this whole thread is one big apples-to-oranges comparison. An average software engineer is lower status than a lawyer at a top law-firm with fierce competition for every position. Well, duh. Why don't we compare a senior FAANG engineer/manager to an average legal clerk or such then.
- onecommentman 6y agoThe really good stuff is always free. If you take a more expansive interpretation of “stuff”. The pretty good stuff is often in short supply.
- bonoboTP 6y agoSounds deep, you probably mean things like love and faith and kindness. But it's misleading. Friendships and relationships aren't "free" in terms of effort and achievement. They take the same kind of work/luck/genetics/network combination as getting an interesting and fulfilling job does. Sure, even the hobo on the street can have faith in Jesus and mental peace for free if you mean that sort of thing, but most things people want are scarce or at least aren't available by default, without either effort or connections.
- redisman 6y agoHow would working at a top law firm do anything “beautiful” or meaningful in the world anyway? You’ll basically be some oligarchs lackey
- api 6y agoHah. Nope. A career where you can make money and move up over time is not low status. Try being a blue collar member of the working poor, or someone deep in debt from a useless degree working a dead end service job. Software is a very cushy job compared with what more than half this country has.
- person_of_color 6y agoIt's the lowest of the white collar jobs.
- api 6y agoPostdoc, paralegal, architectural “cad monkies,” a lot of mid level administration... Depends on where you work too. Sounds like you may need a new job.
- phnofive 6y agoI think it may be on the lower end for a number of reasons which lead back to the low barrier to entry - there’s no need to pay your dues with a decade of schooling, in hundreds of thousands in tuition, and to professional associations, state boards of licensure, or both. However, there are crappy doctors and architects - just like there are famous software engineers. Prestige - outside the ingroup - is a function of the accessibility, value, and quality of your work. Like the Taiwanese folks who built a mask availability tracker...
- runawaybottle 6y agoIt’s fundamentally disrespected by people at a core level. I’ll prove my point with the one question they always ask us versus any other profession, ‘what is it that you actually do at the company?’. I swear, I’d never think to ask this of anyone, doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, cops, literally, I can’t think of one profession that gets asked this, I’ll try again, pilots, chemists, diplomats, translators, artists, mechanics, it’s endless. What is it that you actually do? How about fuck you, I’m not answering that anymore. It tickles people the wrong way that you took software development into every possible industry you can imagine and not only started offering tech solutions, but business solutions too. Incoming projection - I see it as the most passive aggressive low ball attack on one’s profession. It’s karma too, because we do the same to sales/product/people management elements within our industry. I know why I’ve done it, and it’s mostly insecurity, ‘oh those people aren’t smart, will soon be gone’. ^ Now imagine the whole of society looking at you like that.
- imgabe 6y agoDon't get a job based on how impressive it sounds when you tell people about it at parties. You will spend far more time doing the job than you will talking about it at parties.
- nickthemagicman 6y agoYeah but you'll take home way more dates at those parties.
- mhh__ 6y agoOn the one hand it opens the door to (bluntly) "better" people, but equally will you have much in common?
- shrimp_emoji 6y agoThanks to our extreme gender partitioning of hobbies and professions, there's little hope of that anyway. ; p
- imgabe 6y agoThat's fine if you're OK with the kinds of dates that go home with you because of your impressive-sounding job.
- closeparen 6y agoI don't think that's as shallow as you make it sound. I'd rather have respect for being a successful adult who exercises a skill to create value, for doing something difficult and being good at it, than for my taste in music or something.
- imgabe 6y agoThose things are independent of status, though. You can be a successful plumber who exercises your skill to create value, but status-conscious types would still consider you low-status.
- selimthegrim 6y agoYou could try being a grad student in New Orleans. The James Earl Jones quote from Conan is apt here (my point being they will be thankful for what they have). If it makes them feel better I have to teach the 99% of their high school they are talking about and they all seem pretty one track minded.
- nickthemagicman 6y agoConan O'Brien or Conan the barbarian?
- selimthegrim 6y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn0td-xpl8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn0td-xpl8w
- Nav_Panel 6y agoStatus is always relative to social context. I'm sorry you feel that way about your place in whatever your local social world is.
- ronyeh 6y agoUpvoted though I disagree with you. I'm sure there is a wide variance of outcomes in software, but I think if you work at it, you can make a fulfilling career out of software. Don't give up, as it is possible your current job just isn't a right fit for you. Counter anecdote: I know law and finance and business folks who wished they studied more computers.
- sanderjd 6y agoIn my experience that's because they think our work is easier and that we do less of it than they do, for more pay. But that actually goes to the parent's point; lazy entitled and overpaid is part of the low status perception.
- Bakary 6y agoHaving a lot of money without working is a far greater sign of status. That's what being a noble is mostly about!
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- konjin 6y agoJust curious what do you think a high social status position is and what does that entail?
- Tade0 6y agoCare to elaborate? I find this take really interesting, because my (and my peers') experience so far has been very different.
- mhh__ 6y agoAre you Indian by any chance? I'm curious because - at least from Indian people I've seen and met - it (social status) seems to be hugely more important than what I see around me locally. I do think about my literal social status (i.e. friends, sex, etc.) but I don't think thought along those lines has ever really influenced my decision making - beyond a vague desire to outdo people born better than me.
- Wilem82 6y ago“Social status” is an artificial circlejerk concept, why do you care?
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y agoWhat exactly is the social status you were looking for?
- bcrosby95 6y agoFunny. I'm disappointed by the status it's gained over the last 20 years. I miss when it was even lower status than it is now.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- throwaway189262 6y agoHaha do 500 hours of leetcode and go work for FAANG. It's a totally different level of social status than regular engineers and the only qualifications needed is leetcode mediums in 20 mins
- person_of_color 6y agoEr, I work for a FAANG, but I'll never reach investment banking status.
- akhilcacharya 6y agolol, which FAANG is this? I have friends that joined Goldman at the same time as I started working, and I make more and work less.
- person_of_color 6y agoIf you think everyone at FAANG makes 500k at mid-senior SWE (i.e Associate) level, you're smoking something.
- akhilcacharya 6y ago~$500k is what some Amazon L6's and most L7's make. Don't think you can hit that in most Finance positions until VP level, unless you're in Quant finance in hedge funds but then the SWEs make that much too.
- person_of_color 6y agoSWEs working on infra dont make that at hedge funds or prop shops. It isn’t tied to PnL
- pizza_shit 6y agoGoldman banking associates do not make 500k lmao. you are smoking something 500 at Goldman is like VP with some tenure, which would be similar to E6 at Facebook Hell Goldman sales and trading managing directors make 750-900k a year, which is what a good E7 at Facebook makes, both usually reached by age 33-35 by high achievers.
- kulig 6y agoLmao. Start lifting weights and learn how to dress. Nobody gives a damn what your job is. If you actually think lawyer is a high status job then youre watching too many movies.
- selimthegrim 6y agoI don’t know why people are downvoting you, the median lawyer isn’t
- person_of_color 6y agoI'm thinking Big Law, Big 4 Management Consulting, BB Investment banks, private equity, etc.
- randomopining 6y agoYeah legit no one of importance cares. If you’re in good shape, look good, and have enough disposable income to do fun stuff when you want (any software engineer does)... anybody will find you interesting enough.
- offtop5 6y agoDepends on where you come from. Half my friends are doing service jobs or gig work. I can invest in my best friends studio , planing on seeing another friend in Asia next year, can take multiple international vacations per year. I have no credit card debt. All from wanting to learn a bit of Unity once upon a time. You can't compare yourself to the top 5% of income earners while ignoring the bottom 95%
- gen220 6y agoSome scattered thoughts. I'd recommend talking with your friends, and asking them if they find their work fulfilling. If it falls short of their expectations, ask which dimensions contribute the most to the diff. This might give you some perspective on what life would be like in another vertical. It probably isn't as rosy as you imagine, but you might have done this already. --- I would recommend to younger people, that they shouldn't make their career choice through the lens of prestige, because time has demonstrated that social standing is flimsy and unpredictable. A profession's relative prestige varies regionally, temporally, socioeconomically, and in the eye of the beholder. These are mutable dimensions for the duration of a normal career. It's kind of like the old advice: if you're interested in marrying someone for life, don't marry based on one dimension alone (looks, money, health, personality, family). Any of these can invert completely. In finance terms, it's like betting your financial portfoilo on the 40-year performance of a single ETF: not outright stupid because some people will be successful, but it's not super wise. If this doesn't help you feel better, maybe you should consider changing careers? As a SWE, you have enough intellectual capital, time and domain-specific education is the only thing standing in your way.
- saltyfamiliar 6y agoWhat are some higher status jobs where I can use my above average ability to work with computers and sheer tenacity to compensate for my woefully underdeveloped social skills?
- person_of_color 6y agoActuary.
- closeparen 6y agoSocial status associated with book-smarts and STEM jobs is very culturally dependent. Try hanging out with immigrants.
- Bakary 6y agoWanting high status out of just being a type of professional is like expecting status out of purchasing an iPhone.
- wait_a_minute 6y agoSoftware engineers in the USA get paid well enough on average that you can live a modest life, save up serious capital, and then bootstrap your own company or side hustle. That will get you more status.