5 ms·

So to clarify that...the federal Assault Weapons Ban applied to semi-auto rifles with certain ergonomic features, including pistol grips, flash hiders, and fold

So to clarify that...the federal Assault Weapons Ban applied to semi-auto rifles with certain ergonomic features, including pistol grips, flash hiders, and folding stocks. (Semi-auto is one bullet per trigger pull, full-auto means you can hold the trigger down and spray bullets.) The North Hollywood robbers had illegally modified their weapons to enable full-auto fire. Since well before 1997, modifying guns like this has been a federal felony that gets you a ten-year prison sentence. That's a prohibition that predates the Assault Weapon Ban, which had nothing to do with full-auto weapons. The AWB has since expired, and doing your own full-auto conversion will still get you ten years in the slammer. You can buy a full-auto weapon, but only after an extensive background check and approval of your local sheriff, if your state allows it, and only if the weapon was manufactured before 1986. The movie Heat, of course, also had its robbers using full-auto. Incidentally, the movie came out before the North Hollywood robbery; many people have actually blamed the movie for inspiring the real robbers, one of whom owned a copy of the movie! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_(1995_film)#Impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_(1995_film)#Impact

tomcam 6y ago
Where do you even buy those pre-86 full autos? Asking for a friend.
- manfredo 6y ago
  Usually at auction. Even poor quality, worn out registered automatics will run in the high thousands, or low tens of thousands because of constrained supply. This creates interesting dynamics where people take cheap (relatively, still ~$5,000 on the low end) legal automatics like MAC-10s and converting them to 5.56x45mm while retaining the original lower receiver. Example: https://youtu.be/YjrnB2cXSqM https://youtu.be/YjrnB2cXSqM
  - EGreg 6y ago
    Wait wat? These are legal somehow in USA? Can you please trace how and prove it with links?
    - dharmab 6y ago
      It's simple. ~~The Assault Weapons Ban only applied to new guns.~~ ATF policy change, not AWB. Existing guns were grandfathered in. Guns have many interchangeable parts. The part of the gun that the government considers to be the "legal definition" is a part called the lower receiver. You can change almost anything about a gun as long as you keep the lower receiver and comply with any other laws. So if you buy an old MAC-10 lower receiver that was manufactured before the new ATF policy, and add an adapter [1] that allows it to be combined with the non-lower parts from an AR-15, you can create a completely legal Frankenrifle with mostly new parts! This isn't even the craziest thing you can do with gun loopholes in the USA. "Pistol braces" [2], originally made for war veterans with amputations to shoot small rifles, have pretty much obsoleted restrictions on short-barreled rifles. "Ghost guns" [3], i.e. lower receivers that have no serial number and do not appear in any database, are easily made by anyone with access to CNC tools (including a few hours rental for a few hundred bucks). 3D printed pistols are becoming a thing [4], although they are not very durable. 1: https://aandsconversions.com/2018/11/25/the-next-big-thing-for-the-mac-style-family-of-registered-receiver-machine-guns/ https://aandsconversions.com/2018/11/25/the-next-big-thing-f... 2: https://www.sb-tactical.com/product-category/brace/ https://www.sb-tactical.com/product-category/brace/ 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun 4: https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jzik44/magdump_monday_3d_printed_glock_frame_emptying_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jzik44/magdump_monday...
      - manfredo 6y ago
        The automatic weapons ban (specifically the 1986 Machine Gun Act) is distinct from the Assault Weapons Ban. The Assault Weapons Ban was in the 1990s and banned the sale of semi-automatic guns with certain shapes of grip, bayonet lugs, and other features. It did not ban anything based on magazine capacity, as is often stated. It expired in the 2000s since it had a sunset provision that made it last 10 years if not renewed.
- stanford_labrat 6y ago
  You won’t be able to acquire one if you live in CA, NFA items are de facto banned for ordinary citizens.
  - captainredbeard 6y ago
    Not true
    - WillPostForFood 6y ago
      Technically legal, but effectively impossible for an average person to get the permit approved from the state. You'd have to be the head of Apple security or something like that. https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/FD030DWapp.pdf https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms... "De facto banned" for an ordinary citizen is an accurate way to describe it.
      - wl 6y ago
        More likely scenarios for the issuance of a dangerous weapons permit. * You're a Hollywood armorer * You develop or manufacture automatic firearms for government agencies * You're a security contractor who has been provided automatic firearms as part of a federal contract * You're a major museum displaying militaria
- dfsegoat 6y ago
  Impactguns.com is one well known dealer of ATF regulated machineguns and AOWs [0, 1]. Based in UT if memory serves. Be prepared to drop 10k USD+ And obviously the bg check / atf stamps etc. and any fees your local receiving federally licensed firearms dealer may add. I have zero affiliation with this site, they just have a large, dynamic inventory so it makes for fun browsing for me. 0- https://www.impactguns.com/machine-guns/ https://www.impactguns.com/machine-guns/ 1- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons#Any_other_weapon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons#Any_other_w...
- bluedino 6y ago
  Gunbroker.com Be warned that they cost as much as a car.
Daniel_sk 6y ago
From wikipedia: An inventory of the weapons used:[7] A Bushmaster XM-15 converted illegally to fire full auto with two 100-round Beta Magazines A Heckler & Koch HK-91 semi automatic rifle with several 30-round magazines[38] A Beretta 92FS Inox with several magazines Three different civilian-model AK-47 style rifles converted illegally to fire full auto with several 75- to 100-round drum magazines, as well as 30-round box magazines.
maxlybbert 6y ago
My family moved to California in 1987. I remember a school shooting in 1989 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(Stockton) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_sh... ) that led significant California state law restrictions regarding guns. Just like the later federal assault weapons ban, they didn’t do a great job of just targeting the scary-looking guns they wanted to target while leaving just-as-lethal hunting rifles alone.
beerandt 6y ago
>approval of your local sheriff Unless MGs are treated differently than other NFA items in some way I'm unaware of, the new (2016) ATF rules no longer require CLEO (chief law enforcement officer) approval as part of the process, only notification. Of course certain state laws still have a similar approval restriction in place to comply with state law, but local law enforcement can no longer hamstring the actual NFA process. >The final rule affects the NFA regulations by: >... >...requiring that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm, and the specified form for responsible persons (5320.23), be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the applicant/transferee or responsible person resides; and >eliminating the requirement for certification signed by the CLEO. https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-background-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13 https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-bac...
- DennisP 6y ago
  Interesting, I hadn't heard about that.

tomcam 6y ago

Where do you even buy those pre-86 full autos? Asking for a friend.

manfredo 6y ago
Usually at auction. Even poor quality, worn out registered automatics will run in the high thousands, or low tens of thousands because of constrained supply. This creates interesting dynamics where people take cheap (relatively, still ~$5,000 on the low end) legal automatics like MAC-10s and converting them to 5.56x45mm while retaining the original lower receiver. Example: https://youtu.be/YjrnB2cXSqM https://youtu.be/YjrnB2cXSqM
- EGreg 6y ago
  Wait wat? These are legal somehow in USA? Can you please trace how and prove it with links?
  - dharmab 6y ago
    It's simple. ~~The Assault Weapons Ban only applied to new guns.~~ ATF policy change, not AWB. Existing guns were grandfathered in. Guns have many interchangeable parts. The part of the gun that the government considers to be the "legal definition" is a part called the lower receiver. You can change almost anything about a gun as long as you keep the lower receiver and comply with any other laws. So if you buy an old MAC-10 lower receiver that was manufactured before the new ATF policy, and add an adapter [1] that allows it to be combined with the non-lower parts from an AR-15, you can create a completely legal Frankenrifle with mostly new parts! This isn't even the craziest thing you can do with gun loopholes in the USA. "Pistol braces" [2], originally made for war veterans with amputations to shoot small rifles, have pretty much obsoleted restrictions on short-barreled rifles. "Ghost guns" [3], i.e. lower receivers that have no serial number and do not appear in any database, are easily made by anyone with access to CNC tools (including a few hours rental for a few hundred bucks). 3D printed pistols are becoming a thing [4], although they are not very durable. 1: https://aandsconversions.com/2018/11/25/the-next-big-thing-for-the-mac-style-family-of-registered-receiver-machine-guns/ https://aandsconversions.com/2018/11/25/the-next-big-thing-f... 2: https://www.sb-tactical.com/product-category/brace/ https://www.sb-tactical.com/product-category/brace/ 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun 4: https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jzik44/magdump_monday_3d_printed_glock_frame_emptying_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jzik44/magdump_monday...
    - manfredo 6y ago
      The automatic weapons ban (specifically the 1986 Machine Gun Act) is distinct from the Assault Weapons Ban. The Assault Weapons Ban was in the 1990s and banned the sale of semi-automatic guns with certain shapes of grip, bayonet lugs, and other features. It did not ban anything based on magazine capacity, as is often stated. It expired in the 2000s since it had a sunset provision that made it last 10 years if not renewed.
stanford_labrat 6y ago
You won’t be able to acquire one if you live in CA, NFA items are de facto banned for ordinary citizens.
- captainredbeard 6y ago
  Not true
  - WillPostForFood 6y ago
    Technically legal, but effectively impossible for an average person to get the permit approved from the state. You'd have to be the head of Apple security or something like that. https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/FD030DWapp.pdf https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms... "De facto banned" for an ordinary citizen is an accurate way to describe it.
    - wl 6y ago
      More likely scenarios for the issuance of a dangerous weapons permit. * You're a Hollywood armorer * You develop or manufacture automatic firearms for government agencies * You're a security contractor who has been provided automatic firearms as part of a federal contract * You're a major museum displaying militaria
dfsegoat 6y ago
Impactguns.com is one well known dealer of ATF regulated machineguns and AOWs [0, 1]. Based in UT if memory serves. Be prepared to drop 10k USD+ And obviously the bg check / atf stamps etc. and any fees your local receiving federally licensed firearms dealer may add. I have zero affiliation with this site, they just have a large, dynamic inventory so it makes for fun browsing for me. 0- https://www.impactguns.com/machine-guns/ https://www.impactguns.com/machine-guns/ 1- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons#Any_other_weapon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons#Any_other_w...
bluedino 6y ago
Gunbroker.com Be warned that they cost as much as a car.

Daniel_sk 6y ago

From wikipedia: An inventory of the weapons used:[7] A Bushmaster XM-15 converted illegally to fire full auto with two 100-round Beta Magazines A Heckler & Koch HK-91 semi automatic rifle with several 30-round magazines[38] A Beretta 92FS Inox with several magazines Three different civilian-model AK-47 style rifles converted illegally to fire full auto with several 75- to 100-round drum magazines, as well as 30-round box magazines.

maxlybbert 6y ago

My family moved to California in 1987. I remember a school shooting in 1989 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(Stockton) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_sh... ) that led significant California state law restrictions regarding guns. Just like the later federal assault weapons ban, they didn’t do a great job of just targeting the scary-looking guns they wanted to target while leaving just-as-lethal hunting rifles alone.

beerandt 6y ago

>approval of your local sheriff Unless MGs are treated differently than other NFA items in some way I'm unaware of, the new (2016) ATF rules no longer require CLEO (chief law enforcement officer) approval as part of the process, only notification. Of course certain state laws still have a similar approval restriction in place to comply with state law, but local law enforcement can no longer hamstring the actual NFA process. >The final rule affects the NFA regulations by: >... >...requiring that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm, and the specified form for responsible persons (5320.23), be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the applicant/transferee or responsible person resides; and >eliminating the requirement for certification signed by the CLEO. https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-background-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13 https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-bac...

DennisP 6y ago
Interesting, I hadn't heard about that.