3 ms·

Also remember that in most ways, wireless is more like a hub, than using a switch. Fundamentally all wireless peers share the bandwidth (they can share it diffe

by e12e 6y ago

Also remember that in most ways, wireless is more like a hub, than using a switch. Fundamentally all wireless peers share the bandwidth (they can share it differently, but they share) - with a typical ethernet switch (i haven't seen a hub in years, let alone coax...) - you get 1gbps duplex between any two peers simultaneously (these day probably without much problems at 1gbps, depending on hardware at higher speeds and multiple ports - but much closer than with wireless, anyway). I think the "leap" to 10gbps was a bit too far for consumer grade switches - and "too fast" - faster than your SSD - so it didn't make much sense. Hight cost, low real world benefit. In a lot of situations, you'll likely only use 10gbps in order for your NAS to talk to multiple clients, each around 1-2gbps duplex.

formerly_proven 6y ago
2.5 GbE is starting to become quite common on midrange motherboards, still uncommon in switches though.
- fomine3 6y ago
  2.5GbE adoption for consumer PC is in progress by Intel i225 controller but sadly the controller is buggy.
  - formerly_proven 6y ago
    Overall most boards seem to sport the RTL8125 controller instead. Which doesn't exactly inspire all that much confidence either to be honest... https://geizhals.eu/?cat=mbp4_1200&xf=17256_1&asuch=&bpmin=&bpmax=&v=e&dist=&mail=&fcols=4770&sort=p&bl1_id=30 https://geizhals.eu/?cat=mbp4_1200&xf=17256_1&asuch=&bpmin=&... https://geizhals.eu/?cat=mbam4&xf=17256_1&asuch=&bpmin=&bpmax=&v=e&dist=&fcols=4770&sort=p&bl1_id=30 https://geizhals.eu/?cat=mbam4&xf=17256_1&asuch=&bpmin=&bpma...
tw04 6y ago
I think it was less "too fast" and more that 10gbase-t is crazy power hungry and significantly reduced run length. End result is basically 0 adoption in the enterprise so there was little to no trickle down to the consumer market. The power draw also made it extremely difficult to make a 10gbt dongle for laptops and extremely expensive to put on a desktop motherboard.
gh02t 6y ago
10 gigabit is slowly becoming more practical, led largely by Mikrotik making a 4 port SFP+ 10gigE switch for $140. I just upgraded my home network to have 10gig on my NAS and my primary desktop workstation, the possibilities it opens up are really amazing and the whole project was about $400 including switch (my existing main switch already had a 10gig uplink but I needed another), 2 NICs and cables. Still not within reach of everybody, but when I priced it out 10gigE ended up being cheaper than 2.5gigE.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  What kind of cable do you need to use with that?
  - e12e 6y ago
    Not op, but presumably sfp+ drop cables if the devices have sfp+ interfaces, like: https://www.amazon.com/10Gtek-Mikrotik-10GBASE-CU-Passive-1-Meter/dp/B01M073OJU https://www.amazon.com/10Gtek-Mikrotik-10GBASE-CU-Passive-1-... https://www.amazon.com/10GBASE-SFP-10G-AOC-Ubiquiti-Supermicro-Mikrotik/dp/B07VDHS9VK?ref_=ast_sto_dp https://www.amazon.com/10GBASE-SFP-10G-AOC-Ubiquiti-Supermic... Would prob. make sense if you got cheap 10g network cards (second hand, maybe) with sfp+ interfaces? Other option might be a converter/adapter - but then you might be better off with a switch that has rj10 ports built in (and use cat6/7): https://www.servethehome.com/mikrotik-srj10-review-convert-sfp-to-10gbase-t-inexpensively/ https://www.servethehome.com/mikrotik-srj10-review-convert-s...
  - gh02t 6y ago
    I used a 30 meter Amazon branded fiber cable for the main run with 10gtek SFP+ modules and 10gtek direct attach copper cables for the short connections. Both are fairly affordable, and the 10 gig fiber SFPs were much cheaper than I expected. Cabling including SFPs was about $100 of the $400.
swalsh 6y ago
To be fair, beamforming is a thing now on some consumer wifi 6 routers.
- e12e 6y ago
  Yes, but it still doesn't magically give you 1gbps full duplex across 10 devices. On the other hand, you probably don't need that. See my other comment for more pointers on this. I'm guessing that as we transition to wifi 6 aps and clients - we're likely to get "good" enough networking from wifi for many (most?) applications. But I still expect eg: backing up 10 desktops in an office to a NAS will be a much better fit for wired network, than wireless - especially if done in parallel with other day-to-day traffic.
- fomine3 6y ago
  You mean OFDMA? Beam forming is already done on cheaper 11ac APs.
rasz 6y ago
I think this changed in wifi6 due to ofdm https://www.networkworld.com/article/3332018/wi-fi-6-with-ofdma-opens-a-world-of-new-wireless-possibilities.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/3332018/wi-fi-6-with-of... It now works more like a DOCSIS modem with multiple simultaneous subchannels.
- e12e 6y ago
  I sort of handwaved this away - even with ofdm there is sharing of a finite spectrum subject to noise/neighbours etc - but it will likely get much better. And radios (in the ap) is still a limitation: https://meraki.cisco.com/lib/pdf/meraki_whitepaper_wifi6.pdf https://meraki.cisco.com/lib/pdf/meraki_whitepaper_wifi6.pdf > MU-MIMO is technology that allows an AP to service multiple clients simultaneously across a supported number of wireless streams or channels. While this capability existed in 802.11ac, multi-user MIMO will now add communication in the upstream direction. With 8x8 support, which was added during the 802.11n amendment, new APs can now support four simultaneous 2x2 MU-MIMO clients in both the upstream and downstream directions. MU-MIMO will work together with OFDMA to allow multiple clients to communicate simultaneously across multiple frequency ranges as well as multiple spatial streams. This along with ofdm helping with the simplex problem, will likely mean a wireless ap can come close to a 4 or maybe 8 port switch - but will still be far away from a 24 port switch in terms of full duplex throughput. This is likely to make a difference if streaming film from a NAS and on to a display, using miracast over infrastructure[1] or similar bw heavy applications - consider for example two displays and two devices doing this via one ap. For (much) more see: https://www.duckware.com/tech/wifi-in-the-us.html https://www.duckware.com/tech/wifi-in-the-us.html And maybe: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wireless/controller/technotes/8-7/b_wireless_high_client_density_design_guide.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wireless/controller/te... [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/surface-hub/miracast-over-infrastructure https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/surface-hub/miracast-over-i... Ps I just discovered this was a thing :)
fomine3 6y ago
10GbE is just 1.25GB/s, I believe most consumer NVMe SSD (even on OEM) works faster for sequential r/w. I think the most blocker is there's few use case for faster LAN (for normal people).

by e12e 6y ago

formerly_proven 6y ago

2.5 GbE is starting to become quite common on midrange motherboards, still uncommon in switches though.

fomine3 6y ago
2.5GbE adoption for consumer PC is in progress by Intel i225 controller but sadly the controller is buggy.
- formerly_proven 6y ago
  Overall most boards seem to sport the RTL8125 controller instead. Which doesn't exactly inspire all that much confidence either to be honest... https://geizhals.eu/?cat=mbp4_1200&xf=17256_1&asuch=&bpmin=&bpmax=&v=e&dist=&mail=&fcols=4770&sort=p&bl1_id=30 https://geizhals.eu/?cat=mbp4_1200&xf=17256_1&asuch=&bpmin=&... https://geizhals.eu/?cat=mbam4&xf=17256_1&asuch=&bpmin=&bpmax=&v=e&dist=&fcols=4770&sort=p&bl1_id=30 https://geizhals.eu/?cat=mbam4&xf=17256_1&asuch=&bpmin=&bpma...

tw04 6y ago

I think it was less "too fast" and more that 10gbase-t is crazy power hungry and significantly reduced run length. End result is basically 0 adoption in the enterprise so there was little to no trickle down to the consumer market. The power draw also made it extremely difficult to make a 10gbt dongle for laptops and extremely expensive to put on a desktop motherboard.

gh02t 6y ago

10 gigabit is slowly becoming more practical, led largely by Mikrotik making a 4 port SFP+ 10gigE switch for $140. I just upgraded my home network to have 10gig on my NAS and my primary desktop workstation, the possibilities it opens up are really amazing and the whole project was about $400 including switch (my existing main switch already had a 10gig uplink but I needed another), 2 NICs and cables. Still not within reach of everybody, but when I priced it out 10gigE ended up being cheaper than 2.5gigE.

tinus_hn 6y ago
What kind of cable do you need to use with that?
- e12e 6y ago
  Not op, but presumably sfp+ drop cables if the devices have sfp+ interfaces, like: https://www.amazon.com/10Gtek-Mikrotik-10GBASE-CU-Passive-1-Meter/dp/B01M073OJU https://www.amazon.com/10Gtek-Mikrotik-10GBASE-CU-Passive-1-... https://www.amazon.com/10GBASE-SFP-10G-AOC-Ubiquiti-Supermicro-Mikrotik/dp/B07VDHS9VK?ref_=ast_sto_dp https://www.amazon.com/10GBASE-SFP-10G-AOC-Ubiquiti-Supermic... Would prob. make sense if you got cheap 10g network cards (second hand, maybe) with sfp+ interfaces? Other option might be a converter/adapter - but then you might be better off with a switch that has rj10 ports built in (and use cat6/7): https://www.servethehome.com/mikrotik-srj10-review-convert-sfp-to-10gbase-t-inexpensively/ https://www.servethehome.com/mikrotik-srj10-review-convert-s...
- gh02t 6y ago
  I used a 30 meter Amazon branded fiber cable for the main run with 10gtek SFP+ modules and 10gtek direct attach copper cables for the short connections. Both are fairly affordable, and the 10 gig fiber SFPs were much cheaper than I expected. Cabling including SFPs was about $100 of the $400.

swalsh 6y ago

To be fair, beamforming is a thing now on some consumer wifi 6 routers.

e12e 6y ago
Yes, but it still doesn't magically give you 1gbps full duplex across 10 devices. On the other hand, you probably don't need that. See my other comment for more pointers on this. I'm guessing that as we transition to wifi 6 aps and clients - we're likely to get "good" enough networking from wifi for many (most?) applications. But I still expect eg: backing up 10 desktops in an office to a NAS will be a much better fit for wired network, than wireless - especially if done in parallel with other day-to-day traffic.
fomine3 6y ago
You mean OFDMA? Beam forming is already done on cheaper 11ac APs.

rasz 6y ago

I think this changed in wifi6 due to ofdm https://www.networkworld.com/article/3332018/wi-fi-6-with-ofdma-opens-a-world-of-new-wireless-possibilities.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/3332018/wi-fi-6-with-of... It now works more like a DOCSIS modem with multiple simultaneous subchannels.

e12e 6y ago
I sort of handwaved this away - even with ofdm there is sharing of a finite spectrum subject to noise/neighbours etc - but it will likely get much better. And radios (in the ap) is still a limitation: https://meraki.cisco.com/lib/pdf/meraki_whitepaper_wifi6.pdf https://meraki.cisco.com/lib/pdf/meraki_whitepaper_wifi6.pdf > MU-MIMO is technology that allows an AP to service multiple clients simultaneously across a supported number of wireless streams or channels. While this capability existed in 802.11ac, multi-user MIMO will now add communication in the upstream direction. With 8x8 support, which was added during the 802.11n amendment, new APs can now support four simultaneous 2x2 MU-MIMO clients in both the upstream and downstream directions. MU-MIMO will work together with OFDMA to allow multiple clients to communicate simultaneously across multiple frequency ranges as well as multiple spatial streams. This along with ofdm helping with the simplex problem, will likely mean a wireless ap can come close to a 4 or maybe 8 port switch - but will still be far away from a 24 port switch in terms of full duplex throughput. This is likely to make a difference if streaming film from a NAS and on to a display, using miracast over infrastructure[1] or similar bw heavy applications - consider for example two displays and two devices doing this via one ap. For (much) more see: https://www.duckware.com/tech/wifi-in-the-us.html https://www.duckware.com/tech/wifi-in-the-us.html And maybe: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wireless/controller/technotes/8-7/b_wireless_high_client_density_design_guide.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wireless/controller/te... [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/surface-hub/miracast-over-infrastructure https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/surface-hub/miracast-over-i... Ps I just discovered this was a thing :)

fomine3 6y ago

10GbE is just 1.25GB/s, I believe most consumer NVMe SSD (even on OEM) works faster for sequential r/w. I think the most blocker is there's few use case for faster LAN (for normal people).