6 ms·

I am an '04 grad, and there has been some system of second chances for a while. I have a friend that started a year ahead of me who was a "turn back" for an hon

I am an '04 grad, and there has been some system of second chances for a while. I have a friend that started a year ahead of me who was a "turn back" for an honor violation. The violation was in her first year and they decided she was still adapting to the honor code when it happened. The result was 5 years at West Point where she had an in between rank of Cadet PFC for her second year. The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else's account? Those should technically be honor violations, but they aren't prosecuting those. It isn't 100% clear to me where to draw the line.

cies 6y ago
> The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. When laws are BS, ZT is not a little crazy: it's inhumane. > It isn't 100% clear to me where to draw the line. I feel that's the idea with BS laws: everyone is a criminal, so you can just dig for dirt on anyone and make them go away as law enforcement. What BS laws? Well all victimless crime for one. I dont mind some victimless behaviours are offenses (punishable with a fine), but a crime (punishable with jail time)?! That's IMHO a big part of why the law system is broken. We need the constitutional right not to be punished for victimless crime.
- rightbyte 6y ago
  > What BS laws? Well all victimless crime Reckless driving and child pornography comes to mind. It is crimes against the state atleast where I live.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >Reckless driving and child pornography comes to mind. It is crimes against the state atleast where I live. Because teenagers getting air off the train track berm in their shitbox cars and sending nudes to each other definitely needs to be prosecuted like criminals <rolls eyes>. It's easy to call for zero tolerance in the abstract.
    - rightbyte 6y ago
      I took a cheap shoot at a hyperbolic statement. Sorry.
- lordnacho 6y ago
  https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/cardinal_richelieu_183310 https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/cardinal_richelieu_183310 If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.
leroy_masochist 6y ago
> Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else's account? Those should technically be honor violations They make a HUGE deal about this in lifestyle polygraphs. It's completely asinine and drives significant attrition of strong candidates for selective jobs in the IC/SOF world. We need a complete overhaul of the puritanical mindset with which the powers-that-be judge prior behavior. Downloading porn from Limewire when you were a 19-year-old college sophomore should not be stopping people from advancing in selective processes; nor should a history of having used hard drugs, hallucinogens, or marijuana >10x (on the latter I gather they're evolving given current state laws).
- count 6y ago
  Downloading porn on lime wire doesn't stop you from advancing in the process with a polygraph. Doing hard drugs doesn't stop you in advancing with the selection process, or even prevent you from getting a clearance. LYING about it, hiding it, or attempting to cover it up or show ANY KIND of dishonesty is what prevents you from continuing in the process. Nobody has ever been denied a clearance because they downloaded porn on limewire, or pirated movies or videos, assuming they admit to such, and do not indicate a desire or intent to continue in the behavior.
  - sneak 6y ago
    > LYING about it, hiding it, or attempting to cover it up or show ANY KIND of dishonesty is what prevents you from continuing in the process. This is false. Polygraph tests do not detect lies. The polygraph is pseudoscientific snake oil, used to perpetuate fear. https://antipolygraph.org/ https://antipolygraph.org/
    - mminer237 6y ago
      Regardless of the argument that has long been going on over how accurate polygraphs are, that's kind of irrelevant. Dishonesty is what is prohibited. If you have some minor blemish, the government is typically okay with that as long as you admit it. You may not trust how they detect lying, but that's still what they're trying to find to base their decision on.
newsclues 6y ago
Zero tolerance makes sense in certain circumstances. Manned space missions, nuclear power, and the military has many zero tolerance policies and rules.
m463 6y ago
I wonder about zero tolerance, the idea. Is it thought up by people who have just "decided to be honest" in their life and think that should be the way to do things? And then later, these policies cove more ground, so you get something like one kid picking on another and both get in trouble for fighting, or "a leatherman tool is a weapon, so you're out".

cies 6y ago

> The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. When laws are BS, ZT is not a little crazy: it's inhumane. > It isn't 100% clear to me where to draw the line. I feel that's the idea with BS laws: everyone is a criminal, so you can just dig for dirt on anyone and make them go away as law enforcement. What BS laws? Well all victimless crime for one. I dont mind some victimless behaviours are offenses (punishable with a fine), but a crime (punishable with jail time)?! That's IMHO a big part of why the law system is broken. We need the constitutional right not to be punished for victimless crime.

rightbyte 6y ago
> What BS laws? Well all victimless crime Reckless driving and child pornography comes to mind. It is crimes against the state atleast where I live.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Reckless driving and child pornography comes to mind. It is crimes against the state atleast where I live. Because teenagers getting air off the train track berm in their shitbox cars and sending nudes to each other definitely needs to be prosecuted like criminals <rolls eyes>. It's easy to call for zero tolerance in the abstract.
  - rightbyte 6y ago
    I took a cheap shoot at a hyperbolic statement. Sorry.
lordnacho 6y ago
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/cardinal_richelieu_183310 https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/cardinal_richelieu_183310 If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.

leroy_masochist 6y ago

> Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else's account? Those should technically be honor violations They make a HUGE deal about this in lifestyle polygraphs. It's completely asinine and drives significant attrition of strong candidates for selective jobs in the IC/SOF world. We need a complete overhaul of the puritanical mindset with which the powers-that-be judge prior behavior. Downloading porn from Limewire when you were a 19-year-old college sophomore should not be stopping people from advancing in selective processes; nor should a history of having used hard drugs, hallucinogens, or marijuana >10x (on the latter I gather they're evolving given current state laws).

count 6y ago
Downloading porn on lime wire doesn't stop you from advancing in the process with a polygraph. Doing hard drugs doesn't stop you in advancing with the selection process, or even prevent you from getting a clearance. LYING about it, hiding it, or attempting to cover it up or show ANY KIND of dishonesty is what prevents you from continuing in the process. Nobody has ever been denied a clearance because they downloaded porn on limewire, or pirated movies or videos, assuming they admit to such, and do not indicate a desire or intent to continue in the behavior.
- sneak 6y ago
  > LYING about it, hiding it, or attempting to cover it up or show ANY KIND of dishonesty is what prevents you from continuing in the process. This is false. Polygraph tests do not detect lies. The polygraph is pseudoscientific snake oil, used to perpetuate fear. https://antipolygraph.org/ https://antipolygraph.org/
  - mminer237 6y ago
    Regardless of the argument that has long been going on over how accurate polygraphs are, that's kind of irrelevant. Dishonesty is what is prohibited. If you have some minor blemish, the government is typically okay with that as long as you admit it. You may not trust how they detect lying, but that's still what they're trying to find to base their decision on.

newsclues 6y ago

Zero tolerance makes sense in certain circumstances. Manned space missions, nuclear power, and the military has many zero tolerance policies and rules.

m463 6y ago

I wonder about zero tolerance, the idea. Is it thought up by people who have just "decided to be honest" in their life and think that should be the way to do things? And then later, these policies cove more ground, so you get something like one kid picking on another and both get in trouble for fighting, or "a leatherman tool is a weapon, so you're out".