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To be honest, Apple will simply blame Wistron suspend them. In the end these folks here will loose their jobs, and Apple will simply switch manufacturing suppli

To be honest, Apple will simply blame Wistron suspend them. In the end these folks here will loose their jobs, and Apple will simply switch manufacturing suppliers. The problem is the big corps have zero accountability when operating in developing nations. On the flip side, developing nations are desperate to attract big firms in order to bring profits in. For a country the size of India, though they definitely can demand that Apple pay a hefty fine or face even more tariffs. If they can't guarantee workers pay, they deserve to be treated exactly like TikTok was.

api 6y ago
Couldn’t Apple put it in the contract if they wanted?
- GrumpyNl 6y ago
  They could but why would they, its all about pricing.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > Couldn’t Apple put it in the contract if they wanted? It is probably in there. We are dealing with a party who broke their word to their employees. I see no reason to assume they aren’t similarly dishonest with their customers.
- momokoko 6y ago
  This is kind of what fair trade certification tries to address. The issue is that a company like Apple will require in the contract certain things like wage minimum or environmental requirements, but the winning bid will be below the amount required to actually fulfill those requirements. It’s not even that the manufacturer set out to ignore Apple’s requirements, but what happens is that these bids have zero margin of error built in. So once something unexpected happens(lower order volume, initial inaccurate estimation, tax or regulatory changes, etc) these companies are faced with a choice. If they cannot renegotiate the contract they are forced to either reduce salaries, cut environmental and quality corners, or run at a loss and go out of business. The very nature of this type of third party bidding for a few large and powerful customers is that you are almost guaranteed a high percentage of labor and environmental violations because the companies will eventually be forced to chose between that and insolvency.
piyh 6y ago
Lose weight, loose the hounds.
- jsweojtj 6y ago
  Lose weight, loose pants.
gruez 6y ago
>For a country the size of India, though they definitely can demand that Apple pay a hefty fine or face even more tariffs. If they can't guarantee workers pay, they deserve to be treated exactly like TikTok was. but why? If you hired a contractor to renovate your house, and it turned out that they were committing wage theft against their workers, should you be fined?
- bitexploder 6y ago
  Depends on if you knew about it or not IMO. Or if you knew the deal was too good to be true.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Companies like Apple have entire supply chain management departments. Heck, I think that was Tim Cook's job. They know for sure. They'll just ignore it because ... shareholders.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      It's not obvious to me that a supply chain department would be interviewing random line workers of suppliers to make sure they're being paid the advertised wages.
      - SCHiM 6y ago
        The reason they don't is because they don't want to find out things like this. There's no reason a company as rich as apple _can't_ do such interviews...
- an_opabinia 6y ago
  Yes!
- fcantournet 6y ago
  These 2 situations are about as comparable as driving to the supermarket and landing on the moon. Please get a clue.
8ytecoder 6y ago
Apple don’t employ them. I mean I’d like Apple to be held accountable for not auditing their suppliers. However, they don’t have any legal obligation to the workers.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  True, they might not have a legal obligation, but the court of public opinion should have way more influence on something like this. With their billions, they should have the means for oversight enforcement and inspections (including inspecting these companies financials since they're getting millions). Unfortunately ... who's going to stop buying Apple products over things like this? Not many who don't already dislike Apple to begin with. It wouldn't make a dent.
- Jochim 6y ago
  I guess the question then is should they have a legal obligation to the workers. Western companies make a big show of complying with regulations and higher standards of worker safety only to contract that work out to the lowest bidder, where in many cases that bid could not possibly be offered if they were actually treating their workers in the way the western company claims they are. A recent example of this is exemplified in the practice of shipbreaking. Sellers can tell based on price exactly which type of shipbreaking yard their ship will end up[1], but will attempt to claim ignorance by using a series of middlemen to extract the most value, sending ships to places where people are forced to work in subhuman conditions[2]. [1] https://recyclinginternational.com/ferrous-metals/the-netherlands-leads-crackdown-on-illegal-shipbreaking-practices/18622/ https://recyclinginternational.com/ferrous-metals/the-nether... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/dec/02/chittagong-shipbreaking-yards-legal-fight https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/dec/02/c...
zepto 6y ago
“Apple will simply blame Wistron suspend them. ... The problem is the big corps have zero accountability when operating in developing nations.” Can you say what Apple should do instead? It seems like the proximate cause here is Wistron’s management. What would you recommend Apple do other than hire someone else? Also, if you are going to fine Apple, what would the fine be for?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- r00fus 6y ago
  These workers claim to be paid pennies on the dollar. It's not like that kind of scam isn't hard to fix. Either the supplier corrects the situation or Apple ditches them. It's not like the workers are getting a fair shake anyway.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
russli1993 6y ago
No apple will still be treated like a star of the show, with the local government rolling down the red carpet for them. Because apple brings the local area "high tech" jobs, electronics manufacturing. Apple controls the tech, has the management experience, has the worldwide market and brand name. As the local people in the developing world, it would almost feel as a blessing from these companies if they decide to build a factory in their town. So local people and government would bend forward and backwards to win their business. And you never want to piss these companies off, because they might just bring their business elsewhere. There is no shortage of places to do these manufacturing in India or Asia. A pattern I learned from apple and the likes of Foxconn's during the early days of their manufacturing in China. Recently india government created tax reductions favorable land prices for electronics manufacturers. Wondering if this plant used any of these incentives. That would be a shame, billion dollar companies used developing world tax payer's money and then failed to pay them stated wages.
trianglem 6y ago
They can’t switch the manufacturing location if they want to continue to sell in India at a reasonable price which they definitely do. That’s the benefit of a protectionist economy though it has a myriad other downsides.
russli1993 6y ago
Tiktok' sin for what it got from India was it's born Chinese. There was no actual evidence in wrongdoing on tiktok' part, no innocent until proven guilty. No chance to explain and address concerns if there was any. It's all about political pressure on China to retreat from the LOC at the india china border.

api 6y ago

Couldn’t Apple put it in the contract if they wanted?

GrumpyNl 6y ago
They could but why would they, its all about pricing.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> Couldn’t Apple put it in the contract if they wanted? It is probably in there. We are dealing with a party who broke their word to their employees. I see no reason to assume they aren’t similarly dishonest with their customers.
momokoko 6y ago
This is kind of what fair trade certification tries to address. The issue is that a company like Apple will require in the contract certain things like wage minimum or environmental requirements, but the winning bid will be below the amount required to actually fulfill those requirements. It’s not even that the manufacturer set out to ignore Apple’s requirements, but what happens is that these bids have zero margin of error built in. So once something unexpected happens(lower order volume, initial inaccurate estimation, tax or regulatory changes, etc) these companies are faced with a choice. If they cannot renegotiate the contract they are forced to either reduce salaries, cut environmental and quality corners, or run at a loss and go out of business. The very nature of this type of third party bidding for a few large and powerful customers is that you are almost guaranteed a high percentage of labor and environmental violations because the companies will eventually be forced to chose between that and insolvency.

piyh 6y ago

Lose weight, loose the hounds.

jsweojtj 6y ago
Lose weight, loose pants.

gruez 6y ago

>For a country the size of India, though they definitely can demand that Apple pay a hefty fine or face even more tariffs. If they can't guarantee workers pay, they deserve to be treated exactly like TikTok was. but why? If you hired a contractor to renovate your house, and it turned out that they were committing wage theft against their workers, should you be fined?

bitexploder 6y ago
Depends on if you knew about it or not IMO. Or if you knew the deal was too good to be true.
- oblio 6y ago
  Companies like Apple have entire supply chain management departments. Heck, I think that was Tim Cook's job. They know for sure. They'll just ignore it because ... shareholders.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    It's not obvious to me that a supply chain department would be interviewing random line workers of suppliers to make sure they're being paid the advertised wages.
    - SCHiM 6y ago
      The reason they don't is because they don't want to find out things like this. There's no reason a company as rich as apple _can't_ do such interviews...
an_opabinia 6y ago
Yes!
fcantournet 6y ago
These 2 situations are about as comparable as driving to the supermarket and landing on the moon. Please get a clue.

8ytecoder 6y ago

Apple don’t employ them. I mean I’d like Apple to be held accountable for not auditing their suppliers. However, they don’t have any legal obligation to the workers.

djsumdog 6y ago
True, they might not have a legal obligation, but the court of public opinion should have way more influence on something like this. With their billions, they should have the means for oversight enforcement and inspections (including inspecting these companies financials since they're getting millions). Unfortunately ... who's going to stop buying Apple products over things like this? Not many who don't already dislike Apple to begin with. It wouldn't make a dent.
Jochim 6y ago
I guess the question then is should they have a legal obligation to the workers. Western companies make a big show of complying with regulations and higher standards of worker safety only to contract that work out to the lowest bidder, where in many cases that bid could not possibly be offered if they were actually treating their workers in the way the western company claims they are. A recent example of this is exemplified in the practice of shipbreaking. Sellers can tell based on price exactly which type of shipbreaking yard their ship will end up[1], but will attempt to claim ignorance by using a series of middlemen to extract the most value, sending ships to places where people are forced to work in subhuman conditions[2]. [1] https://recyclinginternational.com/ferrous-metals/the-netherlands-leads-crackdown-on-illegal-shipbreaking-practices/18622/ https://recyclinginternational.com/ferrous-metals/the-nether... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/dec/02/chittagong-shipbreaking-yards-legal-fight https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/dec/02/c...

zepto 6y ago

“Apple will simply blame Wistron suspend them. ... The problem is the big corps have zero accountability when operating in developing nations.” Can you say what Apple should do instead? It seems like the proximate cause here is Wistron’s management. What would you recommend Apple do other than hire someone else? Also, if you are going to fine Apple, what would the fine be for?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
r00fus 6y ago
These workers claim to be paid pennies on the dollar. It's not like that kind of scam isn't hard to fix. Either the supplier corrects the situation or Apple ditches them. It's not like the workers are getting a fair shake anyway.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

russli1993 6y ago

No apple will still be treated like a star of the show, with the local government rolling down the red carpet for them. Because apple brings the local area "high tech" jobs, electronics manufacturing. Apple controls the tech, has the management experience, has the worldwide market and brand name. As the local people in the developing world, it would almost feel as a blessing from these companies if they decide to build a factory in their town. So local people and government would bend forward and backwards to win their business. And you never want to piss these companies off, because they might just bring their business elsewhere. There is no shortage of places to do these manufacturing in India or Asia. A pattern I learned from apple and the likes of Foxconn's during the early days of their manufacturing in China. Recently india government created tax reductions favorable land prices for electronics manufacturers. Wondering if this plant used any of these incentives. That would be a shame, billion dollar companies used developing world tax payer's money and then failed to pay them stated wages.

trianglem 6y ago

They can’t switch the manufacturing location if they want to continue to sell in India at a reasonable price which they definitely do. That’s the benefit of a protectionist economy though it has a myriad other downsides.

russli1993 6y ago

Tiktok' sin for what it got from India was it's born Chinese. There was no actual evidence in wrongdoing on tiktok' part, no innocent until proven guilty. No chance to explain and address concerns if there was any. It's all about political pressure on China to retreat from the LOC at the india china border.