20 ms·

The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

cube2222 6y ago
This article is very long and having skimmed it I'm still not entirely sure: is monosodium glutamate unhealthy or not after all?
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > MSG is a naturally occurring food substance, with a distinctive savory taste known by Japanese as umami. “It’s a chemical the same way water is a chemical,” said LeMesurier, who is herself of Korean descent, raised by white parents. “If you have ever eaten aged cheese or heirloom tomatoes, you’ve eaten MSG.” Its powdered form was created in 1908 by a chemist in Japan, and it made its way with Chinese immigrants to the United States, where it was commonly added to dishes in Chinese restaurants. > More recently, studies have roundly debunked the idea that MSG is harmful. Multiple studies using placebos have shown no difference in effects on people eating food with or without MSG. In 1995, the Food and Drug Administration asked an independent scientific group, the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, to study MSG’s safety. It found that only a small number of people experienced any side effects, and that was only after consuming six times the normal serving of MSG on an empty stomach.
  - umeshunni 6y ago
    Cyanide is also a naturally occurring chemical found in food items like Cassava and to a lesser extent, potatoes. That didn't make it harmless.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      You may've seen my comment before I edited in the second excerpt. We've pretty clear evidence of harm from certain doses of cyanide. We don't have it for MSG, despite a whole lot of trying.
      - umeshunni 6y ago
        Makes sense. I didn't read that part about the controlled studies that disproved it before commenting.
      - dotancohen 6y ago
        Actually we do have a lower bound for the MSG dose that will negatively affect 50% of the population. But that dose is about six times higher than the normally-served dose. The fine article mentions that. Some people have a lower tolerance than "most people", for any given chemical, MSG included.
        newen 6y ago
        Interesting. Six times is in the same order of magnitude, so it’s entirely plausible that a significant number of people would be affect by MSG with its normal dose. And it’s entirely plausible that some restaurants would put six times the normal dose in some meals, especially fast food restaurants that don’t use standardized measurements like Chinese restaurants.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        thaumasiotes 6y ago
        > Six times is in the same order of magnitude I don't think this sentence has any meaning. What is "the same order of magnitude"? By the normal definition (still not great, but at least it's well-defined), 6 times x is only in the same order of magnitude as x when x is in the range [0,1.7), and it's in the next order of magnitude up when x is in [1.7,10). Even if we adjust that to a log scale, 6x is in the same order of magnitude when x is in the interval [0,0.23] and in the next higher order of magnitude when x is in (0.23, 1). This is not a solid foundation for the idea that "six times is in the same order of magnitude", even if we think the sentence is interpretable.
        newen 6y ago
    - lr4444lr 6y ago
      Fair point, but both ions in MSG are vital to human health in significant quantities. Plus, we've got a heck of a lot of epidemiological data in the countries where it is eaten liberally vs. where it is not, and there is nothing suggesting any significant negative effect aside from known overconsumption of either of the ions, regardless of their compound form.
    - fakename11 6y ago
      Water is also naturally occurring in many food items. That didn't make it harmless - you can die from too much.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Humans already seek out foods rich in MSG, while we don’t necessarily search out Cyanide.
      - riffraff 6y ago
        I do love bitter almond's flavour! Sadly, almonds that taste of something have become much harder to find.
    - pmoriarty 6y ago
      "Cyanide is also a naturally occurring chemical found in food items like Cassava and to a lesser extent, potatoes" Where did you hear that potatoes contained cyanide?
      - BenjiWiebe 6y ago
        They probably confused it with solanine, the toxin in green potatoes and potato plants.
    - eloff 6y ago
      Yes, thank you for pointing out natural != healthy, and likewise artificial != unhealthy. People are too quick in general to assume one way or the other on that poor heuristic and ignore the evidence. Heuristics are a mental shortcut, not evidence themselves.
    - fy20 6y ago
      It's also present in many fruit seeds. You'd need to eat a lot to do any harm though...
  - dotancohen 6y ago
    > Multiple studies using placebos have shown no difference in effects on people eating food with or without MSG. And multiple other studies _have_ shown a difference in effects on people eating food with or without MSG. The fine anti-MSG article even mentions that. Do you realize how many non-celiacs claim glutten intolerance? The existence of a fad does not preclude the existence of a condition.
- Guest42 6y ago
  I have found it to increase blood sugars drastically.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Via a large-scale, peer-reviewed, double-blind study?
    - londons_explore 6y ago
      one person, reviewed by me, and 20/20 vision...
    - Guest42 6y ago
      Is a posting board not an appropriate place for sharing personal experiences?
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        I suppose I'm sharing my personal experience that anecdotes of this nature are fairly useless compared to the available peer-reviewed large studies we have on the matter.
      - nkurz 6y ago
        This could be a good place for that, but it would bolster your case if you were to add some more details. For example, did you conclude that it increased your blood sugar because you wear a continuous glucose monitor and did a self-blinded home experiment with MSG? Then absolutely yes, your info is incredibly valuable. If on the other hand your data is at the level of "I often feel tired after going to Chinese restaurants", then it's probably not very useful to others. Probably you are somewhere in between these extremes, but in any case offering more background would help others to assess how much weight to put on your observation.
        Guest42 6y ago
        Yes, there was blood testing data that had skyrocketed and an insulin requirement 8-10 times the normal amount for the given set of carbohydrates and time of day adjustments.
- zmmmmm 6y ago
  It's a pretty frustrating article. There is a specific section titled "The truth about MSG" .... which ... doesn't tell you the truth about MSG. Instead, the "truth about MSG" is buried half way through the next voluminous section titled "A cautionary tale". Which appears to be ... no evidence has conclusively shown its harmful in the quantities used in food, and in fact, randomized blinded studies found no effect at all.
  - dotancohen 6y ago
    > randomized blinded studies found no effect at all. And other randomized blinded studies have found an effect. Hence, the controversy. Not to mention that the American food industry is very dependent upon the availability of an inexpensive, effective flavour enhancer.
    - kevinmchugh 6y ago
      The studies I've seen that show an MSG reaction allow respondents to taste the MSG. In studies in which respondents cannot taste the MSG (by putting it in a capsule), there's no effect demonstrated.
      - dotancohen 6y ago
        I'm not familiar with those studies, but here are just a few ideas (made up now, on the spot). 1. MSG in a capsule is not how MSG in food is delivered. So perhaps the delivery mechanism has something to do with it. Perhaps the capsule allows the MSG to pass the tongue, or esophagous, or stomach, with far less reactivity than free MSG does. Maybe the interaction of MSG with other chemicals is necessary for the effects to manifest. 2. Maybe there exists a psycophysical element for some subjects? Such as the commonplace phenomenon of non-celiac "gluten intolerant" people. If those types of people self-select to take part in a study, no wonder no connection is found. And real sufferers would stay far away from a study that promises to expose them to a chemical that they know to be harmful to themselves. 3. There have been many studies which have found no connection between smoking and lung cancer. There have been many studies which have found no connection between fossil fuel usage and climate change. The existence of a study which finds no connection does not mean that such a connection does not exist. Especially when a huge industry depends upon no connection being found.
- laplacesdemon48 6y ago
  I stumbled upon this article after reading some more recent commentary on MSG [0], in which the author wrote: "There’s no evidence to substantiate the claim that MSG causes ill effects in most people who consume it. A minority of people are hypersensitive to glutamate and MSG in food—added or natural—and in a study where MSG was given at 3 grams, in the absence of food, sensitive individuals had short-term, transient adverse reactions." [0] https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-msg/ https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-ms...
- bigbubba 6y ago
  MSG is healthy because it causes no harm and makes food taste better. All else being equal, food tasting better will make you enjoy life more. Enjoying life is correlated with good health outcomes.
  - derekp7 6y ago
    But MSG can make unhealthy food taste better also. Which leads to eating more unhealthy food. Counter-tip -- if your children prefer to eat fast food, that may be due to the additives that make the fast food more enjoyable than home-cooked food. So learning how to incorporate some of their tricks into your own cooking can help your family enjoy the home-cooked foods more. In other words, learning how to enhance your cooking with MSG (Accent) can lead to more (healthy) meals consumed at home (assuming you are otherwise preparing healthy meals). As for proportions -- I've used 1/4 teaspoon per pound of meet, or per 6 servings of stew/soups/vegetable dishes, etc.
    - bigbubba 6y ago
      > all else being equal
  - fomine3 6y ago
    MSG works to reduce usage of salt.
- rglover 6y ago
  It's fine. I bought some from Amazon and put it on veggie bowls and mix it with other food to enhance flavor. There's another store brand called "Accent" that's good, too.
- starkd 6y ago
  I don't think the point was whether or not it is unhealthy. It asserts most definitely that it is not. The story was about how the claim went viral. The story was introduced in 1968 by the New York Times picking up on the NEJM article. It's an amusing tale, but rather unsettling how easily fooled we can be. I remember (growing up as late as the '80s) people legitimately wondering whether an MSG allergy was responsible for their loaginess and fatigue. A number of tv news programs like 20/20 ran cover stories about it. To hear it was all bunk is a sobering reminder to take what we read with a grain of salt. Even much of the hysteria surrounding coronavirus and the like. I don't have an answer to this, but these publications take a serious long term credibility hit with stories like these. And rightfully so.
  - cnst 6y ago
    > The story was introduced in 1968 by the New York Times picking up on the NEJM article. And I think that's ultimately the culprit for this hoax. Just because a reporter at a NYTimes lacks the most basic scientific knowledge to understand that this "letter to the editor" was merely a joke, doesn't mean that it's the fault of the scientific/medical journal -- with a very specific audience, mind you -- for taking a comedy minute. What's next? We're not allowed to talk in our professional roles and circles using the long established terms for technical concepts, just because the jargon could be misinterpreted by people unfamiliar with the field and the subject matter? Oh... Nevermind...
    - starkd 6y ago
      Oh, of course, they are allowed mistakes and an occasional humourous aside. But it did say in the article that the NEJM refused to correct it or elaborate upon it for quite some time. Probably just an oversight, in my opinion, but was posed as a serious letter to the editor, and in order to get the humor, you had to be able to pick up on the subtle clues. What the motivations were for the New York Times Reporter were can only be guessed here. Probably just eagerly looking for some novel bit of news that would be interesting. Based on how these things generally go viral, I think it's unfair to blame any single person or entity.
- kawera 6y ago
  An easier read here: https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-msg/ https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-ms...
- bsder 6y ago
  Is salt unhealthy or not? I'm being a little snotty about this, but the problem is that things often don't have "clean" stories behind them. Excess salt has been one of the "heart health" bugaboos for years. Yet the evidence that it is unhealthy is quite thin on the ground. "Nutrition science" is often anything but.
- shawnz 6y ago
  The health risks are similar to table salt.
- unabst 6y ago
  It's perfectly safe. Soy sauce and parmesan cheese has naturally occurning MSG. MSG is added in campbell and lipton soups, Doritos and Pringles chips, and dozens of menu items at McDonalds and KFC. Ajinomoto is the powdered form that makes MSG easy. Traditionally umami is extracted through fermentation (as it is in soy sauce) or through konbu (seaweed) or fish (vietnamese fish sauce, katsuo dashi). The only potential issue, as with any food, is with allergies. Growing up in Japan, there was a rumor that Ajinomoto may contribute to atopic dermatitis (atopy). Still doesn't appear to be any evidence of it [1].Of course, peanuts, milk, soy, wheat, fish, and eggs are the most common culprits, so it's not bad company to be in even if it were true. [1] https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(06)03525-1/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(06)03525-1/ful...
deleted 6y ago
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umeshunni 6y ago
Why does everything have to be labeled Racist? It makes the entire article read like some SJW's Twitter rant rather than something worth reading.
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  It's possible to simply disagree with somebody who has an opinion that something is racist without belittling them or lamenting that "everything has to be labeled racist".
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    You (GP) clearly didn't read the TAL interview linked where the guy who wrote the letter was actually Cantonese and very much not Howard Steel
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      The article asserts the racism extends far beyond just the original letter, though. Regardless of who authored it, half a century of "MSG bad, but only when in Chinese food; a nice big block of Parmigiano-Reggiano is fine" seems problematic.
louisvgchi 6y ago
Dave Chang has a small scene in one of his Ugly Delicious (great show, by the way) episodes where he gets a group of non-Asian Americans, who claim to be MSG-allergic, to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. He then hands out Doritos and American products that the participants claim they love and can eat all day. Hard to see where this is going... he says, all these umami flavored products contain MSG. Finally, Dave proposes, “do you think racism plays a part?”
- mgh2 6y ago
  Maybe people who suffered got confused with the "Fried Rice Syndrome"? https://biomedgrid.com/fulltext/volume5/fried-rice-syndrome-a-disease-of-fast-world-scientific-analysis.000979.php#:~:text=Fried%20Rice%20Syndrome%20is%20a,soil%20and%20food%20%5B1%5D https://biomedgrid.com/fulltext/volume5/fried-rice-syndrome-....
- cpncrunch 6y ago
  I think it's just a desire to blame something else (wifi, 5g, etc) for health problems, rather than taking responsibility for changing their crappy diet or stressful life.
- moron4hire 6y ago
  Glutamate is also developed during low-and-slow cooking that causes the breakdown of connective tissues in meat. I had a roommate that swore up and down that he had an MSG allergy, but also ate the shit out of the smoked BBQ our other roommate and I made all the time. He was also kind of a pothead, so there were lots of Doritos in the house, too.
- yongjik 6y ago
  I wish people stopped invoking racism everywhere, when plain "being misinformed" explains things just fine. Millions of Koreans swear up and down that MSG is bad for health. Are we also being racist? (Against whom?)
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
junyoon 6y ago
High blood pressure like eating too much table salt?
- FreeFull 6y ago
  Yeah, the sodium part can definitely be a problem for some people, although for healthy people sodium won't actually make blood pressure go up.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  Well, I thought (assumed) that MSG caused raised blood pressure like salt would [salt acts immediately I gather, I thought it was the sodium??], but according to the this HN thread there are no adverse reactions other than extremely rare allergies? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21372742/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21372742/ (first paper SERPs returned for me) suggests that MSG increases BP over the order of years. Not sure the "it's entirely healthy" claims pan out?
moron4hire 6y ago
"Although LeMesurier doesn’t think the writers were being overtly racist, she believes they were picking up on larger stereotypes in the culture of Asian Americans as exotic and strange. “They had a supposed subject, the Chinese-Restaurant syndrome, but the focus was really on Chinese identity and getting in digs about these stereotypically Chinese foods,” she said. “They used Kwok and MSG as figureheads for everything that was silly and frivolous and dangerous about Chinese identity.”" Why is that not "overt racism"?
radicalbyte 6y ago
This American Life did a great podcast on the origins of this myth; I strongly recommend listening to it. Here's the transcript: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript TLDR: it started as a bet/prank and became an accepted truth thanks to racism and people being simple. EDIT: this article is literally based on the podcast. Just listen go it, it's a good one :)
- justicz 6y ago
  You should listen to the whole thing — the story about it being a prank was itself a prank!
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  The TAL podcast makes it clear it didn't start that way
- dotancohen 6y ago
  It seems clearer that the phenomenon was linked with racism as a method of discrediting those few who do suffer MSG sensitivity. MSG is an inexpensive, very effective flavour enhancer and much of the American food industry depends upon it to be profitable.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Thorrez 6y ago
  >EDIT: this article is literally based on the podcast. The article was from Feb 6, 2019. The podcast was from Feb 15, 2019.
alliao 6y ago
the trick to MSG is to double what naturally occurring rate. Chicken that tastes like nothing can taste wonderful with a tinest dash and it'd taste like the best damn chicken. doesn't work well with food already full of umami like parmesan cheese.. and don't keep adding if you're already adding food additives like stock from a can/carton. Those are usually already heavily "fortified" with msg by itself.
- leetrout 6y ago
  Do you have a source for ratios or such? I have a 1 pound bag of msg and I add it to all kinds of stuff but it only has recommendations for soup on the bag. On other things I just sprinkle it (I dedicated an old salt shaker to dispensing MSG instead hehe)
  - alliao 6y ago
    You can look up amount of naturally occurring and do some maths! but over the time I've developed some rule of thumb.. Chicken - tiny amounts seafood - no soup - 1/3 of salt half formed food - half of what you'd add in soup the result is naturally tasting food that got a little umami edge. My grandma goes nuclear on it, usually in equal amounts of salt. That's usually too much in my opinion.
- xyst 6y ago
  This is partly why chic-fil-a is so popular in the United States. https://www.chick-fil-a.com/menu-items/chick-fil-a-deluxe-sandwich https://www.chick-fil-a.com/menu-items/chick-fil-a-deluxe-sa... (expand the "Ingredients" sub-item and search for "monosodium glutamate") I say partly because we the consumers have been tricked into thinking fried chicken is somehow healthy because it has all of the buzz words associated with it ("organic", "free range")
  - chao- 6y ago
    Quite the opposite: Consumers are so aware that fried chicken is unhealthy that Kentucky Fried Chicken formally changed its name to just "KFC" so as to not explicitly reference the food item anymore.
sb057 6y ago
The thing is, I have personal experience with CRS (specifically headaches), and have since I was a small child when I had never even heard of it or MSG. Obviously it isn't MSG (I use it as a seasoning more than salt and pepper), but am thoroughly convinced that there is something to it.
- thereare5lights 6y ago
  what is CRS, please use the full name
  - thedrexster 6y ago
    "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome"
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  Probably caused by overused and/or rancid cooking oil than MSG.
- eplanit 6y ago
  Racist. /s
dotancohen 6y ago
This article is trying to equate a medical controversy with racism. There exists a medical controversy over the effects of MSG. There exists racism, both in general and in particular against Asians in the United States. There also exists a very profitable industry that relies on flavour enhancers, and MSG is one of the most potent yet least expensive flavour enhancers available. I'll tell you that I've inadvertently done the double-blind "Is MSG harmful" test too many times in my life. I'm one of the very, very few people who are negatively affected by MSG. But just like the hordes of non-celiacs who refuse gluten, there are many people who are not affected by MSG who prefer to avoid it as well. What I do find disgusting is the attempts to conflate racism with the ill effects of MSG, in an effort to discredit those who do suffer from MSG sensitivity. It is telling that independent studies done in the late 1960s and early 1970s, as told in the fine article, found a connection between MSG usage and onset of negative symptoms. But when the knowledge of the connection began affecting the food industry, other studies with different findings started appearing.
- CraigJPerry 6y ago
  >> There exists a medical controversy over the effects of MSG. That’s not true. >> most potent yet least expensive flavour enhancers available Salt is approx 1/4 the price, as is sugar. >> I've inadvertently done the double-blind "Is MSG harmful" test too many times Cheese, tomatoes, it would be hard to avoid it. What kind of restrictions do you need to follow?
  - dotancohen 6y ago
    >> There exists a medical controversy over the effects of MSG. > That’s not true. Of course it's true. Otherwise why would the fine article exist? >> most potent yet least expensive flavour enhancers available > Salt is approx 1/4 the price, as is sugar. Both of which are also overused in the American food industry. Every new tool (flavour enhancer) enables the creation of new snacks. Do you think that Doritos would be as popular if they were all salt and no MSG? >> I've inadvertently done the double-blind "Is MSG harmful" test too many times > Cheese, tomatoes, it would be hard to avoid it. What kind of restrictions do you need to follow? I don't eat cheese anyway, so I didn't even know that cheese is an issue. I do eat small amounts of tomatoes, and have never associated tomatoes with symptoms, but from what I've read here it's "heirloom tomatoes" that are maybe problematic? The tomatoes that I eat are pretty much water packaged in a red skin, mostly out of Turkey. My country does not have "Chineese restaurants" like those in the US, but any restaurant that I go to I have to specifically talk to the person preparing the food to ensure that I won't get MSG. Of course snacks such as Doritos are right out. Soup powders are the absolute worst, and are sometimes hard to avoid when eating at friends' houses. My children are not sensitive, and I don't know anybody else who claims to be MSG sensitive. I'm sure that MSG is fine for the vast majority of people, just like gluten is fine for the vast majority of people. In fact, I know a few people who claim gluten intolerance who I serious doubt are celiac based on the things that I see them eat.
deleted 6y ago
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cinntaile 6y ago
This is a rather interesting coincidence. A few days ago someone posted a video here of how Ajinomoto produces a certain polymer substrate commonly used in the electronics industry. This happens to be the same company that first started producing MSG and this year they started a campaign to combat the MSG myth as they call it and try to label it as a xenophobic myth. [0] I thought the issue with MSG was that it was addictive, but a quick search doesn't show any convincing evidence? [0] https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/18/asia/chinese-restaurant-syndrome-msg-intl-hnk-scli/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/18/asia/chinese-restaurant-s...
Cactus2018 6y ago
What if there was contaminated, counterfeit, low-quality chemical MSG on the market? For a comparison - search Amazon reviews of knock-off bulk "Creatine" supplement powder for 'headache'.
tomcam 6y ago
The article is amazing from beginning to end. But then you have to read the bio afterwards. It absolutely does remind one of Forrest Gump.
noyeastguy 6y ago
I suspect that there is some truth the the "Chinese-restaurant syndrome" beyond the racism of the times. Chinese food contains much soy sauce and other fermented ingredients. These foods contain yeasts which are naturally inflammatory via multiple innate immune system pathways. MSG is even produced via fermentation but is probably more devoid of yeast and bacterial cell wall polysaccharides than other ingredients. Inflammation is most probably the cause of these mysterious headaches that are reported.
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  The cause of the headaches is the G in MSG, the glutamate. It's an excitotoxin. Common discourse deflects the true cause and points to the S, Sodium. This is because if the public really became conscious of glutamate, it would put at risk the bottom line of everyone who has disguised glutamate as Natural Flavors, Yeast Extract, etc.
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  My previous comment was downvoted when I was simply summarizing what researchers have already studied and analyzed for us. This paper has 76 references, including studies critical of MSG by both Chinese and Japanese scientists: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10942912.2020.1733016 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10942912.2020.1...
matsemann 6y ago
> Since the initial reporting of this story, information has come to light calling into question Howard Steel’s role in the MSG controversy. For more on this fascinating story, listen to This American Life episode #668. Does anybody know the conclusion? Was the part about a joke letter because of a bet real or not?
- martey 6y ago
  https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript > So it seems like Howard didn't write the fake prank letter that caused decades of chaos. His prank was that he said he had written the letter. He was claiming credit for chaos he didn't create. It was complicated to even think about.
  - matsemann 6y ago
    Thanks, didn't know they had a transcript. Too bad the linked article hasn't edited their story with this information. This will just create another myth and further spread false information.
  - cnst 6y ago
    Wow, that makes it even more hilarious! :-)
hedora 6y ago
This article was subsequently debunked by This American life, and many of the comments here are confused. Dr Kwak was a real person, and the letter contains historical facts linking it to him. His family says the letter is genuine. According to blind studies, the symptoms described in it are experienced by a small percentage of the population, but MSG is harmless to everyone else. The article links to the This American Life podcast in question, here is the transcript: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript
- interestica 6y ago
  > Dr Kwak was a real person "Dr Kwak" seems like an unfortunate typo for a doctor.
  - tgv 6y ago
    It's the original Dutch word for "quack" anyway, fully "kwakzalver".
    - interestica 6y ago
      Ha, full circle. Didn't realize the term originated from Dutch. I just presumed....ducks. Or a cow's opinion.
SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago
This whole MSG thing has irked me for decades, and despite many articles dispelling the myth it still persists. But why are Americans suprised? Anti-vax. Anti-5G. Anti-round Earth. Anti-2020-Election. MSG is the least of your worries. N.B.: I recommend Knorr's Caldo de Tomate. It's an MSG-based seasoning that will up your Spanish Rice game by 3-5x.
userbinator 6y ago
I was expecting there to be something about toothpaste.
sunkenvicar 6y ago
Racism. A bigger hoax than MSG. By far!
x87678r 6y ago
Uncle Roger loves MSG https://youtu.be/k9bJXXCmCYM?t=128 https://youtu.be/k9bJXXCmCYM?t=128. Get some, it makes everything taste great.
suryabeep 6y ago
I cannot comment about MSG in Chinese food but I can provide my own experience with MSG. As a kid in Bangalore I used to eat a lot of instant noodles that had MSG in the seasoning packets. One time I got a very bad case of food poisoning and ended up in the hospital for 5 days. At the time, the doctors said the food poisoning was due to MSG. The circumstances being what they were, I doubt the doctors were influenced by American systemic racism or racism exported from America. (They could well be just plain home-grown racist against the Chinese since Indians are generally not very friendly towards Chinese, but again, I didn't eat at a Chinese restaurant and the instant noodles were an Indian brand so...) All in all, I am inclined to believe that MSG does actually have negative effects. However, I think one can build a tolerance to it, because I regularly eat it at restaurants and I haven't had any problems with it since that time as a kid.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > However, I think one can build a tolerance to it, because I regularly eat it at restaurants and I haven't had any problems with it since that time as a kid. It is much more likely that: 1. You haven't had any problems with MSG ever, including that time as a kid, just as every experiment ever done on MSG would suggest; 2. Your doctors were influenced by coverage of MSG in the medical press outside India. Stupidity doesn't have to originate in racism.
  - shakna 6y ago
    > just as every experiment ever done on MSG would suggest; > In 1995, the Food and Drug Administration asked an independent scientific group, the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, to study MSG’s safety. It found that only a small number of people experienced any side effects, and that was only after consuming six times the normal serving of MSG on an empty stomach. There is a _very_ small number of people who do in fact experience side effects when consuming MSG. Whilst it is pretty much harmless to most people, there is a population for who it creates discomfort. It isn't no one.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
alecfreud 6y ago
So says the toothpaste school... No msg for me, no thank you
balola 6y ago
The problem is, modern Chinese food rely too much on MSG(or its alternatives, along with chilies), it has its justification that Chinese are only relative rich recently, that people needed a way to make cabbages and other non-meat stuff tasty, in this sense, Chinese food is defined by it, unfortunately. I honestly can't imagine how they tasted way back then, coz it must be awful. But the thing is MSG is like drugs, you seemingly need ever more of it. That's why I don't really like modern Chinese eateries, they might taste fantastic, but I know they are constantly search for the next MSG-derivative that can "wow" people(in fact MSG is realy outdated, it's mowhere to been seen in China now, there are countless stronger synthetic flavor "essence" in the market.) I actively avoid it myself, dishes just taste fake, only add it when like I'm doing a seaweed soup.
- cool-guy-69 6y ago
  What in the world? Did you even read the article?
deleted 6y ago
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2Gkashmiri 6y ago
many many year ago, probably more than a decade, i saw on the discovery channel (when it still was worth watching) in programs like food detectives and a few others how MSG was harmless and this was a myth. Since then never gave it much thought because they bunked a myth and that was it
tracker1 6y ago
Reminds me of the bias against dietary cholesterol and saturated fat, largely from vegan/vegetarian biased sources not backed up by rigorous study and experimentation and mostly retracted/changed/removed at this point from official guidelines, but the myths persist in culture and even some doctors.
- llamaz 6y ago
  dietary cholesterol... sure But saturated fat is legitimately bad for you. You should consult any introductory university biology course rather than blog posts (even if they are endorsed by decorated MDs or PhDs - science in consensus based).
  - tracker1 6y ago
    Science evolves in light of evidence, facts are facts regardless of consensus. At one point the consensus was that dietary cholesterol was very bad for you... it didn't change the facts and was the consensus for a very long time despite (often buried) evidence to the contrary. Not all LDL is the same. VLDL and glycated LDL seem to be the problematic markers and aren't necessarily directly tied to saturated fat in the diet. HDL:TG as a ratio is a far better marker for overall health than HDL:LDL or cholesterol markers on their own by count. It's more about oxidative stress and inflammation more than it is about dietary cholesterol and saturated fat specifically. Not to say you should eat an unnatural amount of either only in so much that you shouldn't avoid natural food sources in favor of say processed foods which are far worse in so many ways. I'm an advocate of mostly paleo, most of the time and that should include animal sources even if only fish and/or eggs.
singingsolitue 6y ago
Wow. This thread.

This article is very long and having skimmed it I'm still not entirely sure: is monosodium glutamate unhealthy or not after all?

ceejayoz 6y ago
> MSG is a naturally occurring food substance, with a distinctive savory taste known by Japanese as umami. “It’s a chemical the same way water is a chemical,” said LeMesurier, who is herself of Korean descent, raised by white parents. “If you have ever eaten aged cheese or heirloom tomatoes, you’ve eaten MSG.” Its powdered form was created in 1908 by a chemist in Japan, and it made its way with Chinese immigrants to the United States, where it was commonly added to dishes in Chinese restaurants. > More recently, studies have roundly debunked the idea that MSG is harmful. Multiple studies using placebos have shown no difference in effects on people eating food with or without MSG. In 1995, the Food and Drug Administration asked an independent scientific group, the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, to study MSG’s safety. It found that only a small number of people experienced any side effects, and that was only after consuming six times the normal serving of MSG on an empty stomach.
- umeshunni 6y ago
  Cyanide is also a naturally occurring chemical found in food items like Cassava and to a lesser extent, potatoes. That didn't make it harmless.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    You may've seen my comment before I edited in the second excerpt. We've pretty clear evidence of harm from certain doses of cyanide. We don't have it for MSG, despite a whole lot of trying.
    - umeshunni 6y ago
      Makes sense. I didn't read that part about the controlled studies that disproved it before commenting.
    - dotancohen 6y ago
      Actually we do have a lower bound for the MSG dose that will negatively affect 50% of the population. But that dose is about six times higher than the normally-served dose. The fine article mentions that. Some people have a lower tolerance than "most people", for any given chemical, MSG included.
      - newen 6y ago
        Interesting. Six times is in the same order of magnitude, so it’s entirely plausible that a significant number of people would be affect by MSG with its normal dose. And it’s entirely plausible that some restaurants would put six times the normal dose in some meals, especially fast food restaurants that don’t use standardized measurements like Chinese restaurants.
        deleted 6y ago
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        thaumasiotes 6y ago
        > Six times is in the same order of magnitude I don't think this sentence has any meaning. What is "the same order of magnitude"? By the normal definition (still not great, but at least it's well-defined), 6 times x is only in the same order of magnitude as x when x is in the range [0,1.7), and it's in the next order of magnitude up when x is in [1.7,10). Even if we adjust that to a log scale, 6x is in the same order of magnitude when x is in the interval [0,0.23] and in the next higher order of magnitude when x is in (0.23, 1). This is not a solid foundation for the idea that "six times is in the same order of magnitude", even if we think the sentence is interpretable.
        newen 6y ago
  - lr4444lr 6y ago
    Fair point, but both ions in MSG are vital to human health in significant quantities. Plus, we've got a heck of a lot of epidemiological data in the countries where it is eaten liberally vs. where it is not, and there is nothing suggesting any significant negative effect aside from known overconsumption of either of the ions, regardless of their compound form.
  - fakename11 6y ago
    Water is also naturally occurring in many food items. That didn't make it harmless - you can die from too much.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Humans already seek out foods rich in MSG, while we don’t necessarily search out Cyanide.
    - riffraff 6y ago
      I do love bitter almond's flavour! Sadly, almonds that taste of something have become much harder to find.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    "Cyanide is also a naturally occurring chemical found in food items like Cassava and to a lesser extent, potatoes" Where did you hear that potatoes contained cyanide?
    - BenjiWiebe 6y ago
      They probably confused it with solanine, the toxin in green potatoes and potato plants.
  - eloff 6y ago
    Yes, thank you for pointing out natural != healthy, and likewise artificial != unhealthy. People are too quick in general to assume one way or the other on that poor heuristic and ignore the evidence. Heuristics are a mental shortcut, not evidence themselves.
  - fy20 6y ago
    It's also present in many fruit seeds. You'd need to eat a lot to do any harm though...
- dotancohen 6y ago
  > Multiple studies using placebos have shown no difference in effects on people eating food with or without MSG. And multiple other studies _have_ shown a difference in effects on people eating food with or without MSG. The fine anti-MSG article even mentions that. Do you realize how many non-celiacs claim glutten intolerance? The existence of a fad does not preclude the existence of a condition.
Guest42 6y ago
I have found it to increase blood sugars drastically.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Via a large-scale, peer-reviewed, double-blind study?
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    one person, reviewed by me, and 20/20 vision...
  - Guest42 6y ago
    Is a posting board not an appropriate place for sharing personal experiences?
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      I suppose I'm sharing my personal experience that anecdotes of this nature are fairly useless compared to the available peer-reviewed large studies we have on the matter.
    - nkurz 6y ago
      This could be a good place for that, but it would bolster your case if you were to add some more details. For example, did you conclude that it increased your blood sugar because you wear a continuous glucose monitor and did a self-blinded home experiment with MSG? Then absolutely yes, your info is incredibly valuable. If on the other hand your data is at the level of "I often feel tired after going to Chinese restaurants", then it's probably not very useful to others. Probably you are somewhere in between these extremes, but in any case offering more background would help others to assess how much weight to put on your observation.
      - Guest42 6y ago
        Yes, there was blood testing data that had skyrocketed and an insulin requirement 8-10 times the normal amount for the given set of carbohydrates and time of day adjustments.
zmmmmm 6y ago
It's a pretty frustrating article. There is a specific section titled "The truth about MSG" .... which ... doesn't tell you the truth about MSG. Instead, the "truth about MSG" is buried half way through the next voluminous section titled "A cautionary tale". Which appears to be ... no evidence has conclusively shown its harmful in the quantities used in food, and in fact, randomized blinded studies found no effect at all.
- dotancohen 6y ago
  > randomized blinded studies found no effect at all. And other randomized blinded studies have found an effect. Hence, the controversy. Not to mention that the American food industry is very dependent upon the availability of an inexpensive, effective flavour enhancer.
  - kevinmchugh 6y ago
    The studies I've seen that show an MSG reaction allow respondents to taste the MSG. In studies in which respondents cannot taste the MSG (by putting it in a capsule), there's no effect demonstrated.
    - dotancohen 6y ago
      I'm not familiar with those studies, but here are just a few ideas (made up now, on the spot). 1. MSG in a capsule is not how MSG in food is delivered. So perhaps the delivery mechanism has something to do with it. Perhaps the capsule allows the MSG to pass the tongue, or esophagous, or stomach, with far less reactivity than free MSG does. Maybe the interaction of MSG with other chemicals is necessary for the effects to manifest. 2. Maybe there exists a psycophysical element for some subjects? Such as the commonplace phenomenon of non-celiac "gluten intolerant" people. If those types of people self-select to take part in a study, no wonder no connection is found. And real sufferers would stay far away from a study that promises to expose them to a chemical that they know to be harmful to themselves. 3. There have been many studies which have found no connection between smoking and lung cancer. There have been many studies which have found no connection between fossil fuel usage and climate change. The existence of a study which finds no connection does not mean that such a connection does not exist. Especially when a huge industry depends upon no connection being found.
laplacesdemon48 6y ago
I stumbled upon this article after reading some more recent commentary on MSG [0], in which the author wrote: "There’s no evidence to substantiate the claim that MSG causes ill effects in most people who consume it. A minority of people are hypersensitive to glutamate and MSG in food—added or natural—and in a study where MSG was given at 3 grams, in the absence of food, sensitive individuals had short-term, transient adverse reactions." [0] https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-msg/ https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-ms...
bigbubba 6y ago
MSG is healthy because it causes no harm and makes food taste better. All else being equal, food tasting better will make you enjoy life more. Enjoying life is correlated with good health outcomes.
- derekp7 6y ago
  But MSG can make unhealthy food taste better also. Which leads to eating more unhealthy food. Counter-tip -- if your children prefer to eat fast food, that may be due to the additives that make the fast food more enjoyable than home-cooked food. So learning how to incorporate some of their tricks into your own cooking can help your family enjoy the home-cooked foods more. In other words, learning how to enhance your cooking with MSG (Accent) can lead to more (healthy) meals consumed at home (assuming you are otherwise preparing healthy meals). As for proportions -- I've used 1/4 teaspoon per pound of meet, or per 6 servings of stew/soups/vegetable dishes, etc.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    > all else being equal
- fomine3 6y ago
  MSG works to reduce usage of salt.
rglover 6y ago
It's fine. I bought some from Amazon and put it on veggie bowls and mix it with other food to enhance flavor. There's another store brand called "Accent" that's good, too.
starkd 6y ago
I don't think the point was whether or not it is unhealthy. It asserts most definitely that it is not. The story was about how the claim went viral. The story was introduced in 1968 by the New York Times picking up on the NEJM article. It's an amusing tale, but rather unsettling how easily fooled we can be. I remember (growing up as late as the '80s) people legitimately wondering whether an MSG allergy was responsible for their loaginess and fatigue. A number of tv news programs like 20/20 ran cover stories about it. To hear it was all bunk is a sobering reminder to take what we read with a grain of salt. Even much of the hysteria surrounding coronavirus and the like. I don't have an answer to this, but these publications take a serious long term credibility hit with stories like these. And rightfully so.
- cnst 6y ago
  > The story was introduced in 1968 by the New York Times picking up on the NEJM article. And I think that's ultimately the culprit for this hoax. Just because a reporter at a NYTimes lacks the most basic scientific knowledge to understand that this "letter to the editor" was merely a joke, doesn't mean that it's the fault of the scientific/medical journal -- with a very specific audience, mind you -- for taking a comedy minute. What's next? We're not allowed to talk in our professional roles and circles using the long established terms for technical concepts, just because the jargon could be misinterpreted by people unfamiliar with the field and the subject matter? Oh... Nevermind...
  - starkd 6y ago
    Oh, of course, they are allowed mistakes and an occasional humourous aside. But it did say in the article that the NEJM refused to correct it or elaborate upon it for quite some time. Probably just an oversight, in my opinion, but was posed as a serious letter to the editor, and in order to get the humor, you had to be able to pick up on the subtle clues. What the motivations were for the New York Times Reporter were can only be guessed here. Probably just eagerly looking for some novel bit of news that would be interesting. Based on how these things generally go viral, I think it's unfair to blame any single person or entity.
kawera 6y ago
An easier read here: https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-msg/ https://peterattiamd.com/should-we-still-be-worried-about-ms...
bsder 6y ago
Is salt unhealthy or not? I'm being a little snotty about this, but the problem is that things often don't have "clean" stories behind them. Excess salt has been one of the "heart health" bugaboos for years. Yet the evidence that it is unhealthy is quite thin on the ground. "Nutrition science" is often anything but.
shawnz 6y ago
The health risks are similar to table salt.
unabst 6y ago
It's perfectly safe. Soy sauce and parmesan cheese has naturally occurning MSG. MSG is added in campbell and lipton soups, Doritos and Pringles chips, and dozens of menu items at McDonalds and KFC. Ajinomoto is the powdered form that makes MSG easy. Traditionally umami is extracted through fermentation (as it is in soy sauce) or through konbu (seaweed) or fish (vietnamese fish sauce, katsuo dashi). The only potential issue, as with any food, is with allergies. Growing up in Japan, there was a rumor that Ajinomoto may contribute to atopic dermatitis (atopy). Still doesn't appear to be any evidence of it [1].Of course, peanuts, milk, soy, wheat, fish, and eggs are the most common culprits, so it's not bad company to be in even if it were true. [1] https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(06)03525-1/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(06)03525-1/ful...

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umeshunni 6y ago

Why does everything have to be labeled Racist? It makes the entire article read like some SJW's Twitter rant rather than something worth reading.

happytoexplain 6y ago
It's possible to simply disagree with somebody who has an opinion that something is racist without belittling them or lamenting that "everything has to be labeled racist".
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  You (GP) clearly didn't read the TAL interview linked where the guy who wrote the letter was actually Cantonese and very much not Howard Steel
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    The article asserts the racism extends far beyond just the original letter, though. Regardless of who authored it, half a century of "MSG bad, but only when in Chinese food; a nice big block of Parmigiano-Reggiano is fine" seems problematic.

louisvgchi 6y ago

Dave Chang has a small scene in one of his Ugly Delicious (great show, by the way) episodes where he gets a group of non-Asian Americans, who claim to be MSG-allergic, to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. He then hands out Doritos and American products that the participants claim they love and can eat all day. Hard to see where this is going... he says, all these umami flavored products contain MSG. Finally, Dave proposes, “do you think racism plays a part?”

mgh2 6y ago
Maybe people who suffered got confused with the "Fried Rice Syndrome"? https://biomedgrid.com/fulltext/volume5/fried-rice-syndrome-a-disease-of-fast-world-scientific-analysis.000979.php#:~:text=Fried%20Rice%20Syndrome%20is%20a,soil%20and%20food%20%5B1%5D https://biomedgrid.com/fulltext/volume5/fried-rice-syndrome-....
cpncrunch 6y ago
I think it's just a desire to blame something else (wifi, 5g, etc) for health problems, rather than taking responsibility for changing their crappy diet or stressful life.
moron4hire 6y ago
Glutamate is also developed during low-and-slow cooking that causes the breakdown of connective tissues in meat. I had a roommate that swore up and down that he had an MSG allergy, but also ate the shit out of the smoked BBQ our other roommate and I made all the time. He was also kind of a pothead, so there were lots of Doritos in the house, too.
yongjik 6y ago
I wish people stopped invoking racism everywhere, when plain "being misinformed" explains things just fine. Millions of Koreans swear up and down that MSG is bad for health. Are we also being racist? (Against whom?)
- runawaybottle 6y ago

junyoon 6y ago

High blood pressure like eating too much table salt?

FreeFull 6y ago
Yeah, the sodium part can definitely be a problem for some people, although for healthy people sodium won't actually make blood pressure go up.
pbhjpbhj 6y ago
Well, I thought (assumed) that MSG caused raised blood pressure like salt would [salt acts immediately I gather, I thought it was the sodium??], but according to the this HN thread there are no adverse reactions other than extremely rare allergies? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21372742/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21372742/ (first paper SERPs returned for me) suggests that MSG increases BP over the order of years. Not sure the "it's entirely healthy" claims pan out?

moron4hire 6y ago

"Although LeMesurier doesn’t think the writers were being overtly racist, she believes they were picking up on larger stereotypes in the culture of Asian Americans as exotic and strange. “They had a supposed subject, the Chinese-Restaurant syndrome, but the focus was really on Chinese identity and getting in digs about these stereotypically Chinese foods,” she said. “They used Kwok and MSG as figureheads for everything that was silly and frivolous and dangerous about Chinese identity.”" Why is that not "overt racism"?

radicalbyte 6y ago

This American Life did a great podcast on the origins of this myth; I strongly recommend listening to it. Here's the transcript: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript TLDR: it started as a bet/prank and became an accepted truth thanks to racism and people being simple. EDIT: this article is literally based on the podcast. Just listen go it, it's a good one :)

justicz 6y ago
You should listen to the whole thing — the story about it being a prank was itself a prank!
selimthegrim 6y ago
The TAL podcast makes it clear it didn't start that way
dotancohen 6y ago
It seems clearer that the phenomenon was linked with racism as a method of discrediting those few who do suffer MSG sensitivity. MSG is an inexpensive, very effective flavour enhancer and much of the American food industry depends upon it to be profitable.
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Thorrez 6y ago
>EDIT: this article is literally based on the podcast. The article was from Feb 6, 2019. The podcast was from Feb 15, 2019.

alliao 6y ago

the trick to MSG is to double what naturally occurring rate. Chicken that tastes like nothing can taste wonderful with a tinest dash and it'd taste like the best damn chicken. doesn't work well with food already full of umami like parmesan cheese.. and don't keep adding if you're already adding food additives like stock from a can/carton. Those are usually already heavily "fortified" with msg by itself.

leetrout 6y ago
Do you have a source for ratios or such? I have a 1 pound bag of msg and I add it to all kinds of stuff but it only has recommendations for soup on the bag. On other things I just sprinkle it (I dedicated an old salt shaker to dispensing MSG instead hehe)
- alliao 6y ago
  You can look up amount of naturally occurring and do some maths! but over the time I've developed some rule of thumb.. Chicken - tiny amounts seafood - no soup - 1/3 of salt half formed food - half of what you'd add in soup the result is naturally tasting food that got a little umami edge. My grandma goes nuclear on it, usually in equal amounts of salt. That's usually too much in my opinion.
xyst 6y ago
This is partly why chic-fil-a is so popular in the United States. https://www.chick-fil-a.com/menu-items/chick-fil-a-deluxe-sandwich https://www.chick-fil-a.com/menu-items/chick-fil-a-deluxe-sa... (expand the "Ingredients" sub-item and search for "monosodium glutamate") I say partly because we the consumers have been tricked into thinking fried chicken is somehow healthy because it has all of the buzz words associated with it ("organic", "free range")
- chao- 6y ago
  Quite the opposite: Consumers are so aware that fried chicken is unhealthy that Kentucky Fried Chicken formally changed its name to just "KFC" so as to not explicitly reference the food item anymore.

sb057 6y ago

The thing is, I have personal experience with CRS (specifically headaches), and have since I was a small child when I had never even heard of it or MSG. Obviously it isn't MSG (I use it as a seasoning more than salt and pepper), but am thoroughly convinced that there is something to it.

thereare5lights 6y ago
what is CRS, please use the full name
- thedrexster 6y ago
  "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome"
throwaway201103 6y ago
Probably caused by overused and/or rancid cooking oil than MSG.
eplanit 6y ago
Racist. /s

dotancohen 6y ago

This article is trying to equate a medical controversy with racism. There exists a medical controversy over the effects of MSG. There exists racism, both in general and in particular against Asians in the United States. There also exists a very profitable industry that relies on flavour enhancers, and MSG is one of the most potent yet least expensive flavour enhancers available. I'll tell you that I've inadvertently done the double-blind "Is MSG harmful" test too many times in my life. I'm one of the very, very few people who are negatively affected by MSG. But just like the hordes of non-celiacs who refuse gluten, there are many people who are not affected by MSG who prefer to avoid it as well. What I do find disgusting is the attempts to conflate racism with the ill effects of MSG, in an effort to discredit those who do suffer from MSG sensitivity. It is telling that independent studies done in the late 1960s and early 1970s, as told in the fine article, found a connection between MSG usage and onset of negative symptoms. But when the knowledge of the connection began affecting the food industry, other studies with different findings started appearing.

CraigJPerry 6y ago
>> There exists a medical controversy over the effects of MSG. That’s not true. >> most potent yet least expensive flavour enhancers available Salt is approx 1/4 the price, as is sugar. >> I've inadvertently done the double-blind "Is MSG harmful" test too many times Cheese, tomatoes, it would be hard to avoid it. What kind of restrictions do you need to follow?
- dotancohen 6y ago
  >> There exists a medical controversy over the effects of MSG. > That’s not true. Of course it's true. Otherwise why would the fine article exist? >> most potent yet least expensive flavour enhancers available > Salt is approx 1/4 the price, as is sugar. Both of which are also overused in the American food industry. Every new tool (flavour enhancer) enables the creation of new snacks. Do you think that Doritos would be as popular if they were all salt and no MSG? >> I've inadvertently done the double-blind "Is MSG harmful" test too many times > Cheese, tomatoes, it would be hard to avoid it. What kind of restrictions do you need to follow? I don't eat cheese anyway, so I didn't even know that cheese is an issue. I do eat small amounts of tomatoes, and have never associated tomatoes with symptoms, but from what I've read here it's "heirloom tomatoes" that are maybe problematic? The tomatoes that I eat are pretty much water packaged in a red skin, mostly out of Turkey. My country does not have "Chineese restaurants" like those in the US, but any restaurant that I go to I have to specifically talk to the person preparing the food to ensure that I won't get MSG. Of course snacks such as Doritos are right out. Soup powders are the absolute worst, and are sometimes hard to avoid when eating at friends' houses. My children are not sensitive, and I don't know anybody else who claims to be MSG sensitive. I'm sure that MSG is fine for the vast majority of people, just like gluten is fine for the vast majority of people. In fact, I know a few people who claim gluten intolerance who I serious doubt are celiac based on the things that I see them eat.

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cinntaile 6y ago

This is a rather interesting coincidence. A few days ago someone posted a video here of how Ajinomoto produces a certain polymer substrate commonly used in the electronics industry. This happens to be the same company that first started producing MSG and this year they started a campaign to combat the MSG myth as they call it and try to label it as a xenophobic myth. [0] I thought the issue with MSG was that it was addictive, but a quick search doesn't show any convincing evidence? [0] https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/18/asia/chinese-restaurant-syndrome-msg-intl-hnk-scli/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/18/asia/chinese-restaurant-s...

Cactus2018 6y ago

What if there was contaminated, counterfeit, low-quality chemical MSG on the market? For a comparison - search Amazon reviews of knock-off bulk "Creatine" supplement powder for 'headache'.

tomcam 6y ago

The article is amazing from beginning to end. But then you have to read the bio afterwards. It absolutely does remind one of Forrest Gump.

noyeastguy 6y ago

I suspect that there is some truth the the "Chinese-restaurant syndrome" beyond the racism of the times. Chinese food contains much soy sauce and other fermented ingredients. These foods contain yeasts which are naturally inflammatory via multiple innate immune system pathways. MSG is even produced via fermentation but is probably more devoid of yeast and bacterial cell wall polysaccharides than other ingredients. Inflammation is most probably the cause of these mysterious headaches that are reported.

1MachineElf 6y ago
The cause of the headaches is the G in MSG, the glutamate. It's an excitotoxin. Common discourse deflects the true cause and points to the S, Sodium. This is because if the public really became conscious of glutamate, it would put at risk the bottom line of everyone who has disguised glutamate as Natural Flavors, Yeast Extract, etc.
1MachineElf 6y ago
My previous comment was downvoted when I was simply summarizing what researchers have already studied and analyzed for us. This paper has 76 references, including studies critical of MSG by both Chinese and Japanese scientists: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10942912.2020.1733016 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10942912.2020.1...

matsemann 6y ago

> Since the initial reporting of this story, information has come to light calling into question Howard Steel’s role in the MSG controversy. For more on this fascinating story, listen to This American Life episode #668. Does anybody know the conclusion? Was the part about a joke letter because of a bet real or not?

martey 6y ago
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript > So it seems like Howard didn't write the fake prank letter that caused decades of chaos. His prank was that he said he had written the letter. He was claiming credit for chaos he didn't create. It was complicated to even think about.
- matsemann 6y ago
  Thanks, didn't know they had a transcript. Too bad the linked article hasn't edited their story with this information. This will just create another myth and further spread false information.
- cnst 6y ago
  Wow, that makes it even more hilarious! :-)

hedora 6y ago

This article was subsequently debunked by This American life, and many of the comments here are confused. Dr Kwak was a real person, and the letter contains historical facts linking it to him. His family says the letter is genuine. According to blind studies, the symptoms described in it are experienced by a small percentage of the population, but MSG is harmless to everyone else. The article links to the This American Life podcast in question, here is the transcript: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript

interestica 6y ago
> Dr Kwak was a real person "Dr Kwak" seems like an unfortunate typo for a doctor.
- tgv 6y ago
  It's the original Dutch word for "quack" anyway, fully "kwakzalver".
  - interestica 6y ago
    Ha, full circle. Didn't realize the term originated from Dutch. I just presumed....ducks. Or a cow's opinion.

SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago

This whole MSG thing has irked me for decades, and despite many articles dispelling the myth it still persists. But why are Americans suprised? Anti-vax. Anti-5G. Anti-round Earth. Anti-2020-Election. MSG is the least of your worries. N.B.: I recommend Knorr's Caldo de Tomate. It's an MSG-based seasoning that will up your Spanish Rice game by 3-5x.

userbinator 6y ago

I was expecting there to be something about toothpaste.

sunkenvicar 6y ago

Racism. A bigger hoax than MSG. By far!

x87678r 6y ago

Uncle Roger loves MSG https://youtu.be/k9bJXXCmCYM?t=128 https://youtu.be/k9bJXXCmCYM?t=128. Get some, it makes everything taste great.

suryabeep 6y ago

I cannot comment about MSG in Chinese food but I can provide my own experience with MSG. As a kid in Bangalore I used to eat a lot of instant noodles that had MSG in the seasoning packets. One time I got a very bad case of food poisoning and ended up in the hospital for 5 days. At the time, the doctors said the food poisoning was due to MSG. The circumstances being what they were, I doubt the doctors were influenced by American systemic racism or racism exported from America. (They could well be just plain home-grown racist against the Chinese since Indians are generally not very friendly towards Chinese, but again, I didn't eat at a Chinese restaurant and the instant noodles were an Indian brand so...) All in all, I am inclined to believe that MSG does actually have negative effects. However, I think one can build a tolerance to it, because I regularly eat it at restaurants and I haven't had any problems with it since that time as a kid.

thaumasiotes 6y ago
> However, I think one can build a tolerance to it, because I regularly eat it at restaurants and I haven't had any problems with it since that time as a kid. It is much more likely that: 1. You haven't had any problems with MSG ever, including that time as a kid, just as every experiment ever done on MSG would suggest; 2. Your doctors were influenced by coverage of MSG in the medical press outside India. Stupidity doesn't have to originate in racism.
- shakna 6y ago
  > just as every experiment ever done on MSG would suggest; > In 1995, the Food and Drug Administration asked an independent scientific group, the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, to study MSG’s safety. It found that only a small number of people experienced any side effects, and that was only after consuming six times the normal serving of MSG on an empty stomach. There is a _very_ small number of people who do in fact experience side effects when consuming MSG. Whilst it is pretty much harmless to most people, there is a population for who it creates discomfort. It isn't no one.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago

alecfreud 6y ago

So says the toothpaste school... No msg for me, no thank you

balola 6y ago

The problem is, modern Chinese food rely too much on MSG(or its alternatives, along with chilies), it has its justification that Chinese are only relative rich recently, that people needed a way to make cabbages and other non-meat stuff tasty, in this sense, Chinese food is defined by it, unfortunately. I honestly can't imagine how they tasted way back then, coz it must be awful. But the thing is MSG is like drugs, you seemingly need ever more of it. That's why I don't really like modern Chinese eateries, they might taste fantastic, but I know they are constantly search for the next MSG-derivative that can "wow" people(in fact MSG is realy outdated, it's mowhere to been seen in China now, there are countless stronger synthetic flavor "essence" in the market.) I actively avoid it myself, dishes just taste fake, only add it when like I'm doing a seaweed soup.

cool-guy-69 6y ago
What in the world? Did you even read the article?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

2Gkashmiri 6y ago

many many year ago, probably more than a decade, i saw on the discovery channel (when it still was worth watching) in programs like food detectives and a few others how MSG was harmless and this was a myth. Since then never gave it much thought because they bunked a myth and that was it

tracker1 6y ago

Reminds me of the bias against dietary cholesterol and saturated fat, largely from vegan/vegetarian biased sources not backed up by rigorous study and experimentation and mostly retracted/changed/removed at this point from official guidelines, but the myths persist in culture and even some doctors.

llamaz 6y ago
dietary cholesterol... sure But saturated fat is legitimately bad for you. You should consult any introductory university biology course rather than blog posts (even if they are endorsed by decorated MDs or PhDs - science in consensus based).
- tracker1 6y ago
  Science evolves in light of evidence, facts are facts regardless of consensus. At one point the consensus was that dietary cholesterol was very bad for you... it didn't change the facts and was the consensus for a very long time despite (often buried) evidence to the contrary. Not all LDL is the same. VLDL and glycated LDL seem to be the problematic markers and aren't necessarily directly tied to saturated fat in the diet. HDL:TG as a ratio is a far better marker for overall health than HDL:LDL or cholesterol markers on their own by count. It's more about oxidative stress and inflammation more than it is about dietary cholesterol and saturated fat specifically. Not to say you should eat an unnatural amount of either only in so much that you shouldn't avoid natural food sources in favor of say processed foods which are far worse in so many ways. I'm an advocate of mostly paleo, most of the time and that should include animal sources even if only fish and/or eggs.

singingsolitue 6y ago

Wow. This thread.