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Being kind to others is good for your health

690 points by diminish 6y ago

draw_down 6y ago
Being good to other people is just what’s right, it’s not about looking out for one’s own health.
koeng 6y ago
Is being kind good for your health, or is having good health make you more kind?
- goldenkey 6y ago
  Why not both? (Zoidberg.)
- tomlue 6y ago
  From the article, “There is research suggesting that people who are in better health are more likely to volunteer, but because scientists are very well aware of that, in our studies we statistically control for that,” says Sara Konrath
  - mewpmewp2 6y ago
    I wonder how it is possible to control for that? They mentioned only controlling for health, but what about thousands of other things? Few as an example: 1. Individuals who do high risk activities might be less likely to do volunteer work. 2. Individuals who simply have bad habits in life might be less likely to volunteer. 3. People who die earlier won't even make it far enough to be in position to donate. 4. Poor people are less likely to be able to donate and can get less care for medicine, have worse conditions generally. I see thousands of such examples, I don't think it's possible to control for all of that, is it? You would have to 1) List all of those things that should be controlled. I imagine already this to be an amazing feat. 2) Somehow gather all this data from people.
    - tyu2 6y ago
      Exactly, it's not possible to control for that, just propaganda to promote volunteering as a good thing.
    - cpncrunch 6y ago
      If you read the article you'll see they did a prospective trial where they assigned either wait-list or volunteering to two groups. This wasn't just looking at correlations between volunteering and health.
      - mewpmewp2 6y ago
        I did read the article. The second study also raises many questions. What is meant by wait-listing? Does it mean their future is unclear and for this reason could their stress levels be higher? Was maybe tutoring itself the activity that worked well not the kindness part in particular? But anyway intuitively I believe volunteering and kindness do have health benefits, definitely reduces stress, feelings of guilt and just in general makes you feel better about yourself. So from this mental state there might be health benefits. And while chemical levels differed it is still unclear what health effects there were. Being "linked" doesn't say much.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    I love volunteering. Best feeling I the world. My health is in shambles. So these days I have to take pride in just making sure kids have food. Horrible feeling when people ask for help, and I know I’ll just be a burden.
  - tyu2 6y ago
    How on earth can they control for that in short term studies? Is it even possible to get any statistical significance on that? Smells like bullshit, there is no way there is causation on health from volunteering. Think about it, if you are volunteering you are likely to not just have good health, but afford good health care, have plenty of free time for various activities, less stress in life, enjoy and seek social activities, outdoor activities, etc. All those things could impact health, but not volunteering itself.
    - cpncrunch 6y ago
      If you read the article, it gives more details. For example, they did a controlled trial on two groups of students: one group was put on a waitlist, the other group given tutoring tasks. The tutoring group had lower levels of inflammatory markers.
      - tyu2 6y ago
        Sure, but it has nothing to do with volunteering or health.
        cpncrunch 6y ago
        They were volunteering as tutors, and the study measured inflammatory cytokines.
    - nhumrich 6y ago
      The same wat you control for anything. You assign a group to do a specific thing. If a certain group performs better, its due to the task not preconditions, because the tasks were assigned, not observed and the selection process is random.
bserge 6y ago
Well, yeah, being alone puts you at higher risk of schizophrenia and dementia, experiencing and expressing negative emotions makes you stressed and tired, we're social animals. Kind of interesting how as a society we seem to be rejecting it - a lot of technology enables us to be alone or at least not in direct contact with others. I wonder what the ramifications of that will be in the future.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  > …a lot of technology enables us to be alone or at least not in direct contact with others. What I've seen during the pandemic is that technology enables my family to be in direct contact (if not physically) with others for most of our waking time. Certainly, my kids spend more time with their friends virtually than I did with mine physically as a child. Does the physical part matter? The article references a study where altruistic behavior (a donation) has benefits even if that behavior isn't done in person.
  - goldenkey 6y ago
    Reality is constructed of information states if we really want to be honest with ourselves. There is never really a _true_ information state. Charles Sanders Peirce called the world we build a 'phaneron,' the information state as presented by the senses. Everyone's eyes are a blurry figment of what the true photonic field is. Same with touch when it comes to surfaces and well, all the senses. And those senses degrade over time as we age. I hate hearing the phrase 'real world' or 'physical' being used to describe non-electronic interaction. Call the in-person stuff analog if you'd like. But the digital stuff is just as real. We never have the entire quantum state of other people accessible. We always just get a small blurry sample of their true presence. Does it matter whether it goes through air or down a copper wire? The only difference is with regard to security. I can see that argument as valid. But unless security/imposters are a concern, it's still the real deal.
    - bserge 6y ago
      I understand the idea, but sadly we're tied to these primitive bodies that have their own needs and urges. Perhaps in the future we will learn to shut off the primal instincts, but for now, it seems to do more bad than good if we ignore them.
AntiImperialist 6y ago
No. People who have good health have the energy to be kind to others.
atum47 6y ago
in theory this looks good. reality is a bit different. I constantly have problems with my left and right neighbor (middle of pandemic and this ahole is doing a barbecue with loud music since yesterday) about their lack of consideration (this in my parents house, where I am right now). In my apartment is no different... loud music, stumping on the floor... that kind of problem you have on a building. my father have a huge heart and does all kinds of good things for people, and I watch him getting screw over by the same people he helps (this includes people he hire to work for his small company). each passing day I feel more and more inclined to buy me a piece of land with no one around it, build a small house in the center of it and never interact with this kind of people forever.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  Yeah being kind is more a weird tug of war. We really need lessons in how to ensure our own well being in a social context. Now some would summarize it as: be as kind to you as you're to others. I, like your father, has a weird tendency to do everything for free.. but it's unhealthy and I suffer. But I can't really blame others for that. Being strong and balanced.. a healthy dose of selfishness (kinda like a kid)
- bumby 6y ago
  I would take a slightly different perspective. I think much of the benefit of volunteering etc. as spoke about in the article is from the feeling of "connectedness". It's not that being generous is in-and-of-itself beneficial, but that it helps connect to other humans. From the article: "Humans are extremely social, we have better health when we are interconnected, and part of being interconnected is giving" Being generous and resenting it or moving away from people would probably be antithetical to being connected. Being taken advantage of makes one feel less connected, which might be what you're experiencing. For a good, short read related to this I'd suggest Sebastian Junger's book Tribe
- ohhhhhh 6y ago
  do you see how the negative attitude you carry is eating you alive? be more like your dad
sghiassy 6y ago
... Trump should be dead then if this is true
mewpmewp2 6y ago
They mention only controlling for health reasons. How do they control for that? Is it even realistic to control all the health reasons? And what about thousands of other things, such as 1) People who like to take high risks, might be less keen on communal activities, like volunteering. 2) People who have bad habits might also be less likely to volunteer. 3) Depressed, stressed out, cynical people may be less likely to volunteer. 4) Poor people are less likely to donate and also have lower life expectancy. 5) People who died earlier didn't make it into that point in life where they would be able to donate. This one is easier to control though. And probably countless of other things? I'd need to go deep into the actual study to understand how they controlled for all of that, but right now it makes me very skeptical.
- ummonk 6y ago
  Yeah I was skeptical about the effectiveness of their statistical controls. But the study with high school tutors allowed to tutor or assigned to a waitlist seems like pretty conclusive evidence that volunteering actually benefits health.
- torresmo 6y ago
  > 4) Poor people are less likely to donate and also have lower life expectancy. Poor people seems to be quite generous [1]. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-science-behind-behavior/201711/why-people-who-have-less-give-more https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-science-behind-b...
haunter 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano
austincheney 6y ago
Does kindness include lying by omission?
dukeofdoom 6y ago
I was doing all these things this week, and had a realization that the older I get more and more rely on me. I don't know how it got to be that way. But it was probably doing one kind thing followed by another. And now I'm getting all kinds of help requests. Just in the last week, I helped my cousin move (ridiculous amount of stuff), donated to my other cousins gofund me for his restaurant and stayed up 3 hours talking with him about his problems. Fixed a family friends laptop. The list go on. Its like snowball. I'm just accumulating connections I guess. So I suppose thats good, but on the other hand I probably spent 2 days last week on just doing things for people. If I reflect on it, I can see how this would improve someones mental health to be kind. You are connecting with people and interacting with them. So you definitely feel less lonely for example.
- yulker 6y ago
  Completing this many quests will definitely cause you to level up.
  - GreenWatermelon 6y ago
    Unironically that's what I told my self when I was helping around people: "it's just like RPG quests!" The line between helping others and full on people pleasing is too blurry, and unfortunately I fell into the second camp. People pleasing is a BAD, BAD thing.
- j2bax 6y ago
  Good for you brother. Don’t forget to take care of yourself, but the world would be a better place if more people did everything they could to help those around them in need.
- Technically 6y ago
  Personally I've given a lot of money and personal help in the last year, probably more than the rest of my life added up. I think there are worse ways to handle crises. Granted, I'm only thirty. Perhaps you were trying to illustrate someone I haven't experienced yet. That this is necessary is really disillusioning for an understanding the US, where I live—both with society and the government itself.
block_dagger 6y ago
Related tip: avoid mean people
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
SMAAART 6y ago
Well, yes, no, and maybe. It depends on the giver and on the receiver; and therefore how healthy the relationship/exchange is. Let me explain: * if the receiver is a narcissist/sociopath, for starter they won't value the "gift" received, nothing will ever be enough, and they always seem to attract plenty fo givers * if the giver had the disease to please whereas their own worth is depended on being told "good job" or similar, it will eventually deteriorate since in the mind of the giver, what they give will always be > what they receive and won't end well. * Then there's victimhood chic, where people feel that they need help on everything 24/7 and becomes a co-dependent relationship between them and - slowly but steadily - the entire world; and rapidly reaches a point of impasse since the needs keep escalating and the help keep diminishing Buddha had the 4-part solution: 1. Help yourself 2. Climb a mountain, tell nobody 3. More suffering is needed 4. The enemy is a wonderful teacher
- dqv 6y ago
  OK thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately realized that kindness is very easily exploited by the wrong people. I find it grating because my disposition of being kind gets me in situations where people try to exploit their perception of my kindness. There is this implication of "so you want me to think you're nice? well do this for me and I will." When it turns transactional like that - where their assumption is that I'm being kind to get something (because maybe that's how they interact - by being kind to get things), I feel like I have no choice but to switch to a very serious tone. Then comes the "you're not being very nice" which is the intent: I don't want them to think I'm being nice for personal gain. This is all very cynical and I really need to work on it, but it's a knee jerk response to what seems like slimy behavior. >1. Help yourself >2. Climb a mountain, tell nobody >3. More suffering is needed >4. The enemy is a wonderful teacher I love wisdom like this - is there anything that talks about this in depth or is it more of a proverb only?
slx26 6y ago
When you are kind to others, that tends to create a connection and a shared space with others. You belong more. But what if you only make anonymous donations, or help others in ways that are "kind" but do not allow others to connect with you? What's the contribution of kindness as "morally positive actions", and the contribution of kindness as a "social(-izing) activity"?
- dgb23 6y ago
  With anonymous kindness you relinquish any external reward. Only the most fortunate or humble can afford that.
- 0xbadcafebee 6y ago
  Kindness can help yourself. You can be kind to yourself by giving yourself space to rest, or not beat yourself up. Or you can help yourself feel that you are having a positive effect on the world by donating. You are actually allowed to feel good for donating, you know :)
- ummonk 6y ago
  Yeah, I suspect most of the benefits come from socializing with people who're nice to you, which being kind to others tends to result in, unless you're bad at avoiding abusive jerks.
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
The only issue that I have, is that so many people (in my industry/nation/orbit) mistake kindness for weakness. I live in New York, which has a basic culture of "hyper aggressiveness." It isn't "rudeness," as so many people like to think of New Yorkers. They can be aggressively kind and generous. They are just aggressive. I'm also in the tech industry, which seems to have a very aggressive and competitive culture. It doesn't stop me from being kind and courteous, but it gets grating. My experience is that, when someone mistakes courtesy for weakness, they start trying to "game" me. I put up with it for a bit, until they push too far. Then the till gets slammed on their fingers. They get very, very upset. Far more upset than if I had just disabused them early on. I'm learning to enforce my boundaries earlier. It doesn't make me as popular, but it also prevents those "psycho freakouts."
- AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
  > It isn't "rudeness," as so many people like to think of New Yorkers. I've always suspected the perceived "rudeness" comes not from the residents of New York, but rather the people from neighboring locations that commute into New York for work. New Jersey, I'm lookin' at you.
  - ohyes 6y ago
    Ah, yes, the classic “no true New Yorker” fallacy.
  - dv35z 6y ago
    I tend to agree with this (lived in NYC 13 years) - a lot of the rudest people are the folks to treat NYC as a transient place. That said - these people bring out the aggressiveness in the die hard New Yorkers, which creates a feedback loop... When you live in a densely packed place, it’s hard to find your peace. What happens, is that you experience one stress, unleash it somewhere else, which transfers it to more people, etc. The daily subway commute is a toss-up whether you will have a wonderful morning- get a seat, headphones, read a book, smiles from a stranger... or, barely making the train, getting smashed into a train full of angry, rained-on people, 2 strangers screaming at each other, your blood boiling inside. It’s hard to not accidentally “transmit” that stressed, anxious, distrusting feeling to the next people you interact with, further contributing to the perception that “new yorkers are rude”
hikerclimb 6y ago
I disagree.
marta_morena_9 6y ago
These studies are always funny. So what this is trying to tell us is: Volunteering boosts your health, while the data only provides us with "volunteers are generally in better health". Now this study "tried" to adjust to that by some filtering, but this is still a pretty big leap. Essentially what they would need to do is this: Have one group of people who "actively" is kind to people, i.e. they actually act on their desired. Then compare the results to a control group who "wants" to be kind to people, ideally has a proven track record of being kind to people, but are not allowed to act on that during the duration of study. Then of course they also need to still be as satisfied and happy as before, otherwise they turn into a biased control group. Then if there are no differences, and compared to another control group of "normal" humans, there is a statistically significant improvement in health, then and only then, they may be on to something... Otherwise this is just another case of survivor bias. This is all just pointless. At least here it's for a good cause, but I always am amazed by what kind of conclusions people derive from the well established: Causation implies correlation... Erm, NOT.
- 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
  I started counting the number of qualifying words, even in the linked studies, and then just gave up. Is human behavior truly so opaque that experiments cannot be designed that conclusively determine specific causation?
  - wizzwizz4 6y ago
    Designing the experiments is easy. Designing experiments anyone would want to participate in is tricky… and then you get volunteer selection effects.
  - __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
    When faced with a choice between: - causality is less widely applicable than we like to think - our behavior is more complex than we like to think I'm more inclined to doubt causality. Not that it's not a useful framework in general, but that is less useful when applied by humans to humans regarding human constructs like kindness.
chrisweekly 6y ago
Mods: orig title starts with the word "Why"
0xbadcafebee 6y ago
Be kind, do no harm, and take no shit. Even if you have to tell someone to go fuck themselves, you can find a kind way to do it, which might actually more effective.
oliv__ 6y ago
Could it simply be that people who are kind to others are happier in their lives, and being happy and satisfied is correlated to being healthy?
einpoklum 6y ago
> I live in New York, which has a basic culture of "hyper aggressiveness." Are you sure you're not over-generalizing from your social circles? That's quite the generalization. I think I know a bunch of New-Yorkers who would disagree.
aaron695 6y ago
Leaving out all the garbage - "Research actually testing whether volunteering could have a protective effect against Covid-19 has yet to be conducted" - the article is just Blue Zone Theory. - Being social with other human beings (in person) is good for you. - Light exercise is good for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone has issues, but I think it's approximately good.
crazypython 6y ago
I try to help people in a leveraged way.
viburnum 6y ago
Much easier to be kind when you’re in good health.
tux 6y ago
Be kind to everyone and it will return to you ten fold. It is what worked for me personally and I will continue doing it. Anyone who says that been kind is a weakness, just don't know what been kind really means. Happy holidays everyone!
- Razengan 6y ago
  > Anyone who says that been kind is a weakness, just don't know what been kind really means. Alright, what does being kind really mean?
Scapeghost 6y ago
Only if the people you are kind to appreciate that. I grew up in a third world dog-eat-dog culture where kindness is generally equated with naivete and everyone has to keep their guard up against each other. I'm still struggling with ping-ponging between being taken advantage of or being too mean. I don't know where to draw the line and with whom. In the last couple months alone I've been played for a fool by a few people who, to put it simply, weren't deserving of kindness. It certainly has not been good for my health, mental or physical, and it's going to leave me too cold and cynical for someone who could actually use some kindness, until I being to feel bad about that and open myself up to being exploited and so the cycle repeats.
ArcMex 6y ago
At some point, I switched off mentally towards my colleagues. NGAF and being kind can pass for the same thing for a while but indifference has its own problems.
anonytrary 6y ago
In my experience, being kind results in self-interested people taking advantage of you. People who want to climb the corporate ladder often prey on the kind, so I feel that kindness is "taught out" of people. There is a fine line between being kind and being a doormat. I don't really know where the line is though.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  I made a similar comment above but it's -all about- that line. AKA boundaries. If you are clear on what's OK with you and what's not OK, then you are liberated to be kind and generous as long as people are on the OK side. If that line is blurry, you end up oscillating between doormat and asshole and it's just an unhealthy place (speaking from past experience.)
  - anonytrary 6y ago
    Same, definitely have come off as an asshole saying "no" before. Saying "no" is an art, indeed, easier when you know where that line is.
    - xyzelement 6y ago
      What you're saying is very true but just to clarify I meant something else. When you don't have boundaries, you are constantly expecting to be transgressed upon, so half the time you let people do it and other half of the time you tell them to fuck off when it would have been fine to help them. That's what I mean by asshole. What you're talking about is a healthy no. And I agree there are good ways and bad ways to say it, and you're right that being clear on your boundaries enables the good way - can be as simple as "I am sorry, I am just not comfortable with that."
- Taylor_OD 6y ago
  It sounds like there is a mistake in this tread about what being kind is. Being kind doesnt mean being agreeable to any idea and doing things for other people. If someone if asking you to do something you cant do you have the option of kindly telling them you cant do it or telling them you cant do it in a rude or mean way. It takes effort to be kind.
will_pseudonym 6y ago
As with basically every study that comes out these days in the social sciences, my response is: "We'll see." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis
GoatHerders2 6y ago
Fuck you! That actually makes me feel better...
testxyz 6y ago
Testing
xyzelement 6y ago
Defaulting to generosity - while operating with healthy boundaries - is by far the most beneficial mindset. The alternatives are: Victim. "I am too weak and poor to help anyone but I expect people to help me." This belief corrodes you. Stoic(can't think of a better word.) "I don't help anyone and therefore I don't expect anyone to help me". Well, better than the victim but ends up passing up many opportunities where others are genuinely ready to help. Abuser "I don't bother to help others but I take advantage of them" - becomes obvious very quickly and you are ostracized and hated. Doormat "I help everyone but because I don't have healthy boundaries, I end up attracting abusers and victims." Gross. The "best people" are clear and confident with their boundaries and generous with their time and resources when people are on the right side of the boundary. I see this a lot with truly successful senior managers and businesspeople, for example. Even in politics, when a candidate runs for office, they want to tell stories of "X came to me and needed help and I really took the time to hear them and help them (kindness). Then Y came and they sought to rip us off and I told them to go fuck themselves (boundaries)." We seek that as species, we expect that out of the best among us, and therefore we reward those who operate from this place (and it's good for lots of other reasons.)
- Biganon 6y ago
  I find it kinda weird that you called the doormat archetype gross, and not the abuser.
  - OJFord 6y ago
    I read it as 'a gross position, don't put yourself in it'; not 'anyone in such a position is themselves gross'.
    - xyzelement 6y ago
      Exactly. It's also unpleasant to witness this happening to someone else. In contrast I used 'hate' for the abuser.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
fritex 6y ago
Was kind for 5-6 years, but found out It drained me out. Sorry, but I won't be this time, this year, later, ever again so much to so many people.
- metta2uall 6y ago
  Perhaps you spent so much energy being kind to others that you forgot to be more kind to yourself?
- bananamerica 6y ago
  This dial has more than two positions, you know...
eointierney 6y ago
Kindness is how we'll save our planet Kindness is a polite word for love
offtop5 6y ago
Forgiveness too. Forgive everyone who you imagine did you wrong. And imagine everyone forgiving you. Then forgive yourself.
known 6y ago
"Happiness? It's quite simple. Practice ALTRUISM" --Unknown
kumarvvr 6y ago
In todays world, more often than not, being kind is interpreted as weakness. This is especially true in modern corporate environments, where incentives are aligned to promote a dog eat dog world, no matter what the corporates speak about 'values'. It is compounded by a culture where not getting a promotion or not earning ever increasing salaries, is propagated and interpreted as undeserving, weak or useless. Human nature is described in Hindu scriptures as 'restless and unpredictable as a drunken monkey, stung by a scorpion'. So people learn to hide their kindness, and put up a facade of toughness. But just as a lie repeated a million times is percieved as truth, a kind personality hidden behind toughness loses itself and the person becomes a shell of their former selves. That is why you have news stories today celebrating small acts of kindness, integrity, honesty or truthfulness, where the norm is those acts should be a standard part of every persons life.
29athrowaway 6y ago
I would say being a jerk reduces your life expectancy by inviting aggressive behavior towards you.
imposter 6y ago
Or maybe it's the opposite. Healthier people not only care about themselves more, but about others as well.
fcantournet 6y ago
Also, you know, the right thing to do...
aprdm 6y ago
The book "Art of Happiness" surely agrees with this title, it has the points of view of science and religion (Buddhism) on it and reaches the same conclusion. Great book.
grandinj 6y ago
Causation may be backwards here - people with good mental health are more likely to be kind to others because there is no mental baggage standing in the way.
siraben 6y ago
Many IRC channels have a culture of generosity, strangers assisting each other in real time. More generally, I wonder if this and working on open source projects would be equivalent to helping strangers/volunteering in real life.
YooLi 6y ago
Does watching people be kind to others also have health benefits? I’ve noticed quite a bit of videos on YouTube about tipping people large sums of money or giving away items to strangers and use that as evidence that people like to watch them. Are people attracted (not consciously) to the same mental/physical benefit?
replwoacause 6y ago
This is something I have struggled with in my life and am trying to work on. The older I get the more I feel that people generally suck, which is not an attitude I particularly care to have, but it has borne itself out a number of times in my past. For most of my life I have assumed that people are mostly good, and while this may actually be true, when I reflect on some of the times in my life I was stressed out it was due to extending myself to others, to then later feel taken advantage of or on the hook for future favors. As an example, I helped an older neighbor put up a wireless security camera. I had the same camera and I used a double-sided industrial strength adhesive to affix it to the side of my house. When my neighbor asked for help and I made it clear upfront that I'm not too handy, and this is just what worked for me. I didn't have a drill or screws for a proper install and in my case those weren't needed. Mine had been installed for 6 months at the time using the adhesive. I told her that if she was OK with that then I'm happy to get out the ladder and install it. Turns out, the siding material on her house was different than mine and her camera only stuck to it for a couple of hours before dropping off, swinging by its solar-panel's charging cable. She stormed over, knocked aggressively on my door during my dinner, and marched me over to the swinging camera to show it to me suspended in the breeze. Her girlfriend also commented on my inept handy work. So, I helped a neighbor and was honest upfront with a disclaimer. She accepted and then when things didn't work out she made it my fault. I was the schmuck. Oh, and I setup the software on her computer and phone so she could get email alerts for motion activity. Despite the generosity I showed with my time, when the outcome wasn't ideal I got blow-back for my good deed. This also reminds me of the time I let my choosing beggar neighbor hop on our WiFi network until he got his installed. Needless to say, he never did get his own and became indignant when I cut his access off after several months of free use. Yep, lots of people suck.
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bg24 6y ago
Yes. Also being kind to yourself goes a long way. Once we are above the self-credit, self-blame, etc., the brain creates a positive impact to our health. Accepting the reality gracefully also helps our health, though it is not same as being kind.

690 points by diminish 6y ago

draw_down 6y ago

Being good to other people is just what’s right, it’s not about looking out for one’s own health.

koeng 6y ago

Is being kind good for your health, or is having good health make you more kind?

goldenkey 6y ago
Why not both? (Zoidberg.)
tomlue 6y ago
From the article, “There is research suggesting that people who are in better health are more likely to volunteer, but because scientists are very well aware of that, in our studies we statistically control for that,” says Sara Konrath
- mewpmewp2 6y ago
  I wonder how it is possible to control for that? They mentioned only controlling for health, but what about thousands of other things? Few as an example: 1. Individuals who do high risk activities might be less likely to do volunteer work. 2. Individuals who simply have bad habits in life might be less likely to volunteer. 3. People who die earlier won't even make it far enough to be in position to donate. 4. Poor people are less likely to be able to donate and can get less care for medicine, have worse conditions generally. I see thousands of such examples, I don't think it's possible to control for all of that, is it? You would have to 1) List all of those things that should be controlled. I imagine already this to be an amazing feat. 2) Somehow gather all this data from people.
  - tyu2 6y ago
    Exactly, it's not possible to control for that, just propaganda to promote volunteering as a good thing.
  - cpncrunch 6y ago
    If you read the article you'll see they did a prospective trial where they assigned either wait-list or volunteering to two groups. This wasn't just looking at correlations between volunteering and health.
    - mewpmewp2 6y ago
      I did read the article. The second study also raises many questions. What is meant by wait-listing? Does it mean their future is unclear and for this reason could their stress levels be higher? Was maybe tutoring itself the activity that worked well not the kindness part in particular? But anyway intuitively I believe volunteering and kindness do have health benefits, definitely reduces stress, feelings of guilt and just in general makes you feel better about yourself. So from this mental state there might be health benefits. And while chemical levels differed it is still unclear what health effects there were. Being "linked" doesn't say much.
- treeman79 6y ago
  I love volunteering. Best feeling I the world. My health is in shambles. So these days I have to take pride in just making sure kids have food. Horrible feeling when people ask for help, and I know I’ll just be a burden.
- tyu2 6y ago
  How on earth can they control for that in short term studies? Is it even possible to get any statistical significance on that? Smells like bullshit, there is no way there is causation on health from volunteering. Think about it, if you are volunteering you are likely to not just have good health, but afford good health care, have plenty of free time for various activities, less stress in life, enjoy and seek social activities, outdoor activities, etc. All those things could impact health, but not volunteering itself.
  - cpncrunch 6y ago
    If you read the article, it gives more details. For example, they did a controlled trial on two groups of students: one group was put on a waitlist, the other group given tutoring tasks. The tutoring group had lower levels of inflammatory markers.
    - tyu2 6y ago
      Sure, but it has nothing to do with volunteering or health.
      - cpncrunch 6y ago
        They were volunteering as tutors, and the study measured inflammatory cytokines.
  - nhumrich 6y ago
    The same wat you control for anything. You assign a group to do a specific thing. If a certain group performs better, its due to the task not preconditions, because the tasks were assigned, not observed and the selection process is random.

bserge 6y ago

Well, yeah, being alone puts you at higher risk of schizophrenia and dementia, experiencing and expressing negative emotions makes you stressed and tired, we're social animals. Kind of interesting how as a society we seem to be rejecting it - a lot of technology enables us to be alone or at least not in direct contact with others. I wonder what the ramifications of that will be in the future.

CharlesW 6y ago
> …a lot of technology enables us to be alone or at least not in direct contact with others. What I've seen during the pandemic is that technology enables my family to be in direct contact (if not physically) with others for most of our waking time. Certainly, my kids spend more time with their friends virtually than I did with mine physically as a child. Does the physical part matter? The article references a study where altruistic behavior (a donation) has benefits even if that behavior isn't done in person.
- goldenkey 6y ago
  Reality is constructed of information states if we really want to be honest with ourselves. There is never really a _true_ information state. Charles Sanders Peirce called the world we build a 'phaneron,' the information state as presented by the senses. Everyone's eyes are a blurry figment of what the true photonic field is. Same with touch when it comes to surfaces and well, all the senses. And those senses degrade over time as we age. I hate hearing the phrase 'real world' or 'physical' being used to describe non-electronic interaction. Call the in-person stuff analog if you'd like. But the digital stuff is just as real. We never have the entire quantum state of other people accessible. We always just get a small blurry sample of their true presence. Does it matter whether it goes through air or down a copper wire? The only difference is with regard to security. I can see that argument as valid. But unless security/imposters are a concern, it's still the real deal.
  - bserge 6y ago
    I understand the idea, but sadly we're tied to these primitive bodies that have their own needs and urges. Perhaps in the future we will learn to shut off the primal instincts, but for now, it seems to do more bad than good if we ignore them.

AntiImperialist 6y ago

No. People who have good health have the energy to be kind to others.

atum47 6y ago

in theory this looks good. reality is a bit different. I constantly have problems with my left and right neighbor (middle of pandemic and this ahole is doing a barbecue with loud music since yesterday) about their lack of consideration (this in my parents house, where I am right now). In my apartment is no different... loud music, stumping on the floor... that kind of problem you have on a building. my father have a huge heart and does all kinds of good things for people, and I watch him getting screw over by the same people he helps (this includes people he hire to work for his small company). each passing day I feel more and more inclined to buy me a piece of land with no one around it, build a small house in the center of it and never interact with this kind of people forever.

agumonkey 6y ago
Yeah being kind is more a weird tug of war. We really need lessons in how to ensure our own well being in a social context. Now some would summarize it as: be as kind to you as you're to others. I, like your father, has a weird tendency to do everything for free.. but it's unhealthy and I suffer. But I can't really blame others for that. Being strong and balanced.. a healthy dose of selfishness (kinda like a kid)
bumby 6y ago
I would take a slightly different perspective. I think much of the benefit of volunteering etc. as spoke about in the article is from the feeling of "connectedness". It's not that being generous is in-and-of-itself beneficial, but that it helps connect to other humans. From the article: "Humans are extremely social, we have better health when we are interconnected, and part of being interconnected is giving" Being generous and resenting it or moving away from people would probably be antithetical to being connected. Being taken advantage of makes one feel less connected, which might be what you're experiencing. For a good, short read related to this I'd suggest Sebastian Junger's book Tribe
ohhhhhh 6y ago
do you see how the negative attitude you carry is eating you alive? be more like your dad

sghiassy 6y ago

... Trump should be dead then if this is true

mewpmewp2 6y ago

They mention only controlling for health reasons. How do they control for that? Is it even realistic to control all the health reasons? And what about thousands of other things, such as 1) People who like to take high risks, might be less keen on communal activities, like volunteering. 2) People who have bad habits might also be less likely to volunteer. 3) Depressed, stressed out, cynical people may be less likely to volunteer. 4) Poor people are less likely to donate and also have lower life expectancy. 5) People who died earlier didn't make it into that point in life where they would be able to donate. This one is easier to control though. And probably countless of other things? I'd need to go deep into the actual study to understand how they controlled for all of that, but right now it makes me very skeptical.

ummonk 6y ago
Yeah I was skeptical about the effectiveness of their statistical controls. But the study with high school tutors allowed to tutor or assigned to a waitlist seems like pretty conclusive evidence that volunteering actually benefits health.
torresmo 6y ago
> 4) Poor people are less likely to donate and also have lower life expectancy. Poor people seems to be quite generous [1]. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-science-behind-behavior/201711/why-people-who-have-less-give-more https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-science-behind-b...

haunter 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano

austincheney 6y ago

Does kindness include lying by omission?

dukeofdoom 6y ago

I was doing all these things this week, and had a realization that the older I get more and more rely on me. I don't know how it got to be that way. But it was probably doing one kind thing followed by another. And now I'm getting all kinds of help requests. Just in the last week, I helped my cousin move (ridiculous amount of stuff), donated to my other cousins gofund me for his restaurant and stayed up 3 hours talking with him about his problems. Fixed a family friends laptop. The list go on. Its like snowball. I'm just accumulating connections I guess. So I suppose thats good, but on the other hand I probably spent 2 days last week on just doing things for people. If I reflect on it, I can see how this would improve someones mental health to be kind. You are connecting with people and interacting with them. So you definitely feel less lonely for example.

yulker 6y ago
Completing this many quests will definitely cause you to level up.
- GreenWatermelon 6y ago
  Unironically that's what I told my self when I was helping around people: "it's just like RPG quests!" The line between helping others and full on people pleasing is too blurry, and unfortunately I fell into the second camp. People pleasing is a BAD, BAD thing.
j2bax 6y ago
Good for you brother. Don’t forget to take care of yourself, but the world would be a better place if more people did everything they could to help those around them in need.
Technically 6y ago
Personally I've given a lot of money and personal help in the last year, probably more than the rest of my life added up. I think there are worse ways to handle crises. Granted, I'm only thirty. Perhaps you were trying to illustrate someone I haven't experienced yet. That this is necessary is really disillusioning for an understanding the US, where I live—both with society and the government itself.

block_dagger 6y ago

Related tip: avoid mean people

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

SMAAART 6y ago

Well, yes, no, and maybe. It depends on the giver and on the receiver; and therefore how healthy the relationship/exchange is. Let me explain: * if the receiver is a narcissist/sociopath, for starter they won't value the "gift" received, nothing will ever be enough, and they always seem to attract plenty fo givers * if the giver had the disease to please whereas their own worth is depended on being told "good job" or similar, it will eventually deteriorate since in the mind of the giver, what they give will always be > what they receive and won't end well. * Then there's victimhood chic, where people feel that they need help on everything 24/7 and becomes a co-dependent relationship between them and - slowly but steadily - the entire world; and rapidly reaches a point of impasse since the needs keep escalating and the help keep diminishing Buddha had the 4-part solution: 1. Help yourself 2. Climb a mountain, tell nobody 3. More suffering is needed 4. The enemy is a wonderful teacher

dqv 6y ago
OK thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately realized that kindness is very easily exploited by the wrong people. I find it grating because my disposition of being kind gets me in situations where people try to exploit their perception of my kindness. There is this implication of "so you want me to think you're nice? well do this for me and I will." When it turns transactional like that - where their assumption is that I'm being kind to get something (because maybe that's how they interact - by being kind to get things), I feel like I have no choice but to switch to a very serious tone. Then comes the "you're not being very nice" which is the intent: I don't want them to think I'm being nice for personal gain. This is all very cynical and I really need to work on it, but it's a knee jerk response to what seems like slimy behavior. >1. Help yourself >2. Climb a mountain, tell nobody >3. More suffering is needed >4. The enemy is a wonderful teacher I love wisdom like this - is there anything that talks about this in depth or is it more of a proverb only?

slx26 6y ago

When you are kind to others, that tends to create a connection and a shared space with others. You belong more. But what if you only make anonymous donations, or help others in ways that are "kind" but do not allow others to connect with you? What's the contribution of kindness as "morally positive actions", and the contribution of kindness as a "social(-izing) activity"?

dgb23 6y ago
With anonymous kindness you relinquish any external reward. Only the most fortunate or humble can afford that.
0xbadcafebee 6y ago
Kindness can help yourself. You can be kind to yourself by giving yourself space to rest, or not beat yourself up. Or you can help yourself feel that you are having a positive effect on the world by donating. You are actually allowed to feel good for donating, you know :)
ummonk 6y ago
Yeah, I suspect most of the benefits come from socializing with people who're nice to you, which being kind to others tends to result in, unless you're bad at avoiding abusive jerks.

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

The only issue that I have, is that so many people (in my industry/nation/orbit) mistake kindness for weakness. I live in New York, which has a basic culture of "hyper aggressiveness." It isn't "rudeness," as so many people like to think of New Yorkers. They can be aggressively kind and generous. They are just aggressive. I'm also in the tech industry, which seems to have a very aggressive and competitive culture. It doesn't stop me from being kind and courteous, but it gets grating. My experience is that, when someone mistakes courtesy for weakness, they start trying to "game" me. I put up with it for a bit, until they push too far. Then the till gets slammed on their fingers. They get very, very upset. Far more upset than if I had just disabused them early on. I'm learning to enforce my boundaries earlier. It doesn't make me as popular, but it also prevents those "psycho freakouts."

AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
> It isn't "rudeness," as so many people like to think of New Yorkers. I've always suspected the perceived "rudeness" comes not from the residents of New York, but rather the people from neighboring locations that commute into New York for work. New Jersey, I'm lookin' at you.
- ohyes 6y ago
  Ah, yes, the classic “no true New Yorker” fallacy.
- dv35z 6y ago
  I tend to agree with this (lived in NYC 13 years) - a lot of the rudest people are the folks to treat NYC as a transient place. That said - these people bring out the aggressiveness in the die hard New Yorkers, which creates a feedback loop... When you live in a densely packed place, it’s hard to find your peace. What happens, is that you experience one stress, unleash it somewhere else, which transfers it to more people, etc. The daily subway commute is a toss-up whether you will have a wonderful morning- get a seat, headphones, read a book, smiles from a stranger... or, barely making the train, getting smashed into a train full of angry, rained-on people, 2 strangers screaming at each other, your blood boiling inside. It’s hard to not accidentally “transmit” that stressed, anxious, distrusting feeling to the next people you interact with, further contributing to the perception that “new yorkers are rude”

hikerclimb 6y ago

I disagree.

marta_morena_9 6y ago

These studies are always funny. So what this is trying to tell us is: Volunteering boosts your health, while the data only provides us with "volunteers are generally in better health". Now this study "tried" to adjust to that by some filtering, but this is still a pretty big leap. Essentially what they would need to do is this: Have one group of people who "actively" is kind to people, i.e. they actually act on their desired. Then compare the results to a control group who "wants" to be kind to people, ideally has a proven track record of being kind to people, but are not allowed to act on that during the duration of study. Then of course they also need to still be as satisfied and happy as before, otherwise they turn into a biased control group. Then if there are no differences, and compared to another control group of "normal" humans, there is a statistically significant improvement in health, then and only then, they may be on to something... Otherwise this is just another case of survivor bias. This is all just pointless. At least here it's for a good cause, but I always am amazed by what kind of conclusions people derive from the well established: Causation implies correlation... Erm, NOT.

11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
I started counting the number of qualifying words, even in the linked studies, and then just gave up. Is human behavior truly so opaque that experiments cannot be designed that conclusively determine specific causation?
- wizzwizz4 6y ago
  Designing the experiments is easy. Designing experiments anyone would want to participate in is tricky… and then you get volunteer selection effects.
- __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
  When faced with a choice between: - causality is less widely applicable than we like to think - our behavior is more complex than we like to think I'm more inclined to doubt causality. Not that it's not a useful framework in general, but that is less useful when applied by humans to humans regarding human constructs like kindness.

chrisweekly 6y ago

Mods: orig title starts with the word "Why"

0xbadcafebee 6y ago

Be kind, do no harm, and take no shit. Even if you have to tell someone to go fuck themselves, you can find a kind way to do it, which might actually more effective.

oliv__ 6y ago

Could it simply be that people who are kind to others are happier in their lives, and being happy and satisfied is correlated to being healthy?

einpoklum 6y ago

> I live in New York, which has a basic culture of "hyper aggressiveness." Are you sure you're not over-generalizing from your social circles? That's quite the generalization. I think I know a bunch of New-Yorkers who would disagree.

aaron695 6y ago

Leaving out all the garbage - "Research actually testing whether volunteering could have a protective effect against Covid-19 has yet to be conducted" - the article is just Blue Zone Theory. - Being social with other human beings (in person) is good for you. - Light exercise is good for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone has issues, but I think it's approximately good.

crazypython 6y ago

I try to help people in a leveraged way.

viburnum 6y ago

Much easier to be kind when you’re in good health.

tux 6y ago

Be kind to everyone and it will return to you ten fold. It is what worked for me personally and I will continue doing it. Anyone who says that been kind is a weakness, just don't know what been kind really means. Happy holidays everyone!

Razengan 6y ago
> Anyone who says that been kind is a weakness, just don't know what been kind really means. Alright, what does being kind really mean?

Scapeghost 6y ago

Only if the people you are kind to appreciate that. I grew up in a third world dog-eat-dog culture where kindness is generally equated with naivete and everyone has to keep their guard up against each other. I'm still struggling with ping-ponging between being taken advantage of or being too mean. I don't know where to draw the line and with whom. In the last couple months alone I've been played for a fool by a few people who, to put it simply, weren't deserving of kindness. It certainly has not been good for my health, mental or physical, and it's going to leave me too cold and cynical for someone who could actually use some kindness, until I being to feel bad about that and open myself up to being exploited and so the cycle repeats.

ArcMex 6y ago

At some point, I switched off mentally towards my colleagues. NGAF and being kind can pass for the same thing for a while but indifference has its own problems.

anonytrary 6y ago

In my experience, being kind results in self-interested people taking advantage of you. People who want to climb the corporate ladder often prey on the kind, so I feel that kindness is "taught out" of people. There is a fine line between being kind and being a doormat. I don't really know where the line is though.

xyzelement 6y ago
I made a similar comment above but it's -all about- that line. AKA boundaries. If you are clear on what's OK with you and what's not OK, then you are liberated to be kind and generous as long as people are on the OK side. If that line is blurry, you end up oscillating between doormat and asshole and it's just an unhealthy place (speaking from past experience.)
- anonytrary 6y ago
  Same, definitely have come off as an asshole saying "no" before. Saying "no" is an art, indeed, easier when you know where that line is.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    What you're saying is very true but just to clarify I meant something else. When you don't have boundaries, you are constantly expecting to be transgressed upon, so half the time you let people do it and other half of the time you tell them to fuck off when it would have been fine to help them. That's what I mean by asshole. What you're talking about is a healthy no. And I agree there are good ways and bad ways to say it, and you're right that being clear on your boundaries enables the good way - can be as simple as "I am sorry, I am just not comfortable with that."
Taylor_OD 6y ago
It sounds like there is a mistake in this tread about what being kind is. Being kind doesnt mean being agreeable to any idea and doing things for other people. If someone if asking you to do something you cant do you have the option of kindly telling them you cant do it or telling them you cant do it in a rude or mean way. It takes effort to be kind.

will_pseudonym 6y ago

As with basically every study that comes out these days in the social sciences, my response is: "We'll see." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

GoatHerders2 6y ago

Fuck you! That actually makes me feel better...

testxyz 6y ago

Testing

xyzelement 6y ago

Defaulting to generosity - while operating with healthy boundaries - is by far the most beneficial mindset. The alternatives are: Victim. "I am too weak and poor to help anyone but I expect people to help me." This belief corrodes you. Stoic(can't think of a better word.) "I don't help anyone and therefore I don't expect anyone to help me". Well, better than the victim but ends up passing up many opportunities where others are genuinely ready to help. Abuser "I don't bother to help others but I take advantage of them" - becomes obvious very quickly and you are ostracized and hated. Doormat "I help everyone but because I don't have healthy boundaries, I end up attracting abusers and victims." Gross. The "best people" are clear and confident with their boundaries and generous with their time and resources when people are on the right side of the boundary. I see this a lot with truly successful senior managers and businesspeople, for example. Even in politics, when a candidate runs for office, they want to tell stories of "X came to me and needed help and I really took the time to hear them and help them (kindness). Then Y came and they sought to rip us off and I told them to go fuck themselves (boundaries)." We seek that as species, we expect that out of the best among us, and therefore we reward those who operate from this place (and it's good for lots of other reasons.)

Biganon 6y ago
I find it kinda weird that you called the doormat archetype gross, and not the abuser.
- OJFord 6y ago
  I read it as 'a gross position, don't put yourself in it'; not 'anyone in such a position is themselves gross'.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    Exactly. It's also unpleasant to witness this happening to someone else. In contrast I used 'hate' for the abuser.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

fritex 6y ago

Was kind for 5-6 years, but found out It drained me out. Sorry, but I won't be this time, this year, later, ever again so much to so many people.

metta2uall 6y ago
Perhaps you spent so much energy being kind to others that you forgot to be more kind to yourself?
bananamerica 6y ago
This dial has more than two positions, you know...

eointierney 6y ago

Kindness is how we'll save our planet Kindness is a polite word for love

offtop5 6y ago

Forgiveness too. Forgive everyone who you imagine did you wrong. And imagine everyone forgiving you. Then forgive yourself.

known 6y ago

"Happiness? It's quite simple. Practice ALTRUISM" --Unknown

kumarvvr 6y ago

In todays world, more often than not, being kind is interpreted as weakness. This is especially true in modern corporate environments, where incentives are aligned to promote a dog eat dog world, no matter what the corporates speak about 'values'. It is compounded by a culture where not getting a promotion or not earning ever increasing salaries, is propagated and interpreted as undeserving, weak or useless. Human nature is described in Hindu scriptures as 'restless and unpredictable as a drunken monkey, stung by a scorpion'. So people learn to hide their kindness, and put up a facade of toughness. But just as a lie repeated a million times is percieved as truth, a kind personality hidden behind toughness loses itself and the person becomes a shell of their former selves. That is why you have news stories today celebrating small acts of kindness, integrity, honesty or truthfulness, where the norm is those acts should be a standard part of every persons life.

29athrowaway 6y ago

I would say being a jerk reduces your life expectancy by inviting aggressive behavior towards you.

imposter 6y ago

Or maybe it's the opposite. Healthier people not only care about themselves more, but about others as well.

fcantournet 6y ago

Also, you know, the right thing to do...

aprdm 6y ago

The book "Art of Happiness" surely agrees with this title, it has the points of view of science and religion (Buddhism) on it and reaches the same conclusion. Great book.

grandinj 6y ago

Causation may be backwards here - people with good mental health are more likely to be kind to others because there is no mental baggage standing in the way.

siraben 6y ago

Many IRC channels have a culture of generosity, strangers assisting each other in real time. More generally, I wonder if this and working on open source projects would be equivalent to helping strangers/volunteering in real life.

YooLi 6y ago

Does watching people be kind to others also have health benefits? I’ve noticed quite a bit of videos on YouTube about tipping people large sums of money or giving away items to strangers and use that as evidence that people like to watch them. Are people attracted (not consciously) to the same mental/physical benefit?

replwoacause 6y ago

This is something I have struggled with in my life and am trying to work on. The older I get the more I feel that people generally suck, which is not an attitude I particularly care to have, but it has borne itself out a number of times in my past. For most of my life I have assumed that people are mostly good, and while this may actually be true, when I reflect on some of the times in my life I was stressed out it was due to extending myself to others, to then later feel taken advantage of or on the hook for future favors. As an example, I helped an older neighbor put up a wireless security camera. I had the same camera and I used a double-sided industrial strength adhesive to affix it to the side of my house. When my neighbor asked for help and I made it clear upfront that I'm not too handy, and this is just what worked for me. I didn't have a drill or screws for a proper install and in my case those weren't needed. Mine had been installed for 6 months at the time using the adhesive. I told her that if she was OK with that then I'm happy to get out the ladder and install it. Turns out, the siding material on her house was different than mine and her camera only stuck to it for a couple of hours before dropping off, swinging by its solar-panel's charging cable. She stormed over, knocked aggressively on my door during my dinner, and marched me over to the swinging camera to show it to me suspended in the breeze. Her girlfriend also commented on my inept handy work. So, I helped a neighbor and was honest upfront with a disclaimer. She accepted and then when things didn't work out she made it my fault. I was the schmuck. Oh, and I setup the software on her computer and phone so she could get email alerts for motion activity. Despite the generosity I showed with my time, when the outcome wasn't ideal I got blow-back for my good deed. This also reminds me of the time I let my choosing beggar neighbor hop on our WiFi network until he got his installed. Needless to say, he never did get his own and became indignant when I cut his access off after several months of free use. Yep, lots of people suck.

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bg24 6y ago

Yes. Also being kind to yourself goes a long way. Once we are above the self-credit, self-blame, etc., the brain creates a positive impact to our health. Accepting the reality gracefully also helps our health, though it is not same as being kind.