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I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be insta

I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded. Software updates delivered through the automatic updater are listed in an XML catalog file that anyone can parse to get the URL where the actual update package is hosted. The packages usually use the platform standard .pkg installer format. (Note that the update check does not send information about your system to Apple.) Apple still provides the `softwareupdate` command line tool to list, download, and apply updates and even whole OS installers of the last 4 years of releases. The OS installers contain tools that can produce bootable install media if you want to archive them. Apple has also provided tools to mirror software updates on your own infrastructure---see the "Content Caching" option in the Sharing prefpane, for example. Not sure what the state of this is today. I think the linked article makes good arguments for why it may be premature to discontinue the standalone updates. And I am critical of how difficult it is to obtain OS installers for older hardware and VMs. But it's not the end of macOS as a developer platform.

Lev1a 6y ago
> Apple further locking down the platform > they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded Isn't that synonymous?
- vmception 6y ago
  This is hilarious. They remind me of a politician.
  - Waterluvian 6y ago
    It's just a temporary refund adjustment.
- ossusermivami 6y ago
  Hahah exactly, like Apple don't have the resources to support multiple installs and have to sacrifice one method in the name of stability.....
  - vlovich123 6y ago
    Apple has an effectively infinite budget. Teams within Apple do not. You need to be able to cut costs to improve your ability to scale the eng org/reduce associated costs with that scaling. Reducing complexity in your SW stack is 100% critical as you age so that you can lay down technical debt and build new things faster with the freed up capital.
  - kolinko 6y ago
    In case of software money will only go so far to offset the scope creep. If the scope is too large any company will fail, regardless of budget. Apple historically was always removing features that add bulk but are not necessary (although some people need them). To give some examples: - with one of the MacOS releases they announces there are no new features in the OS, just a cleanup of unnecessary stuff - they removed support for 32 bit apps a year ago - personally I found it painful as some stuff stopped working, but I understand this was done to streamline the system - and so on Sure it’s sometimes irritating, but otherwise you risk ending up with a mess that Windows is. As a side note - since they switched from physical medium it was weird to me personally that there even is a standalone installer - why not make it a system update? This year they finally did the switch.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  No. Only reductions that affect user freedom fall under "locking down". If there are redundant ways to do something, removing one doesn't lock down anything.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    Making it harder for users to review & inspect update installation packages does affect user freedom.
    - holstvoogd 6y ago
      like anyone does that
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      You just have to download it a slightly different way. Anyone who has any ability to actually review/inspect is able to do that. The impact on user freedom is negligible. But even if we decide this particular situation is in fact locking down, what I said is still true. Locking down is a subset of removing options, not synonymous with it.
      - ineedasername 6y ago
        The impact on user freedom is negligible. Apple has been practicing incrementalism. Each small step by itself doesn't seem very significant. But the slow march continues, and the pieces add up. Current people with technical ability may be able to modify their behavior to work around it, but the technical bar has been raise slightly-- people without technical ability have one more small speedbump. If you're right and Apple stops here, then sure, no big deal, and I'd be happy to be wrong. This isn't the hill I'd die on for the issue. It's the trend I don't like. If a few years go by without Apple locking down the OS further, I'd be okay with the status quo. Looking at the trend of the past few years though, it seems like Apple is slowly taking MacOS towards the iOS model.
        Dylan16807 6y ago
- onion2k 6y ago
  "Locking down" implies that they're adding restrictions. They're not doing that. People are just as free to download updates as they always have been. Now they just have to use a different address. If I have two URLs pointing to my website and then I remove one, users can just go to the other one. I have not "locked down" my website or limited access at all.
- cozzyd 6y ago
  Marty: The last time Tap toured America, they where, uh, booked into 10,000 seat arenas, and 15,000 seat venues, and it seems that now, on their current tour they're being booked into 1,200 seat arenas, 1,500 seat arenas, and uh I was just wondering, does this mean uh...the popularity of the group is waning? Ian: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no...no, no, not at all. I, I, I just think that the.. uh.. their appeal is becoming more selective.
ladyanita22 6y ago
HN will excuse Apple, just as you have.
- yborg 6y ago
  No, HN will rush to Cupertino with torches and pitchforks based on an inflammatory headline without clicking on the link and realizing that: - Apple hasn't officially said anything about this. The linked rantpost is verklempt because it's been 4 weeks since the release of a major OS revision supporting a new processor architecture and a standalone installer hasn't been provided (yet). And here are his given arguments for the Collapse of American Way and Civilization in General if this situation continues: - It's hard to reinstall Safari. This basically happens ... never. I've been running OS X since the beta and have never had to reinstall Safari. - It would make it difficult to recreate a specific point release in the future. This is valid, but also a rare use case and this doesn't prevent you from doing it, you just have to apply the incrementals from Apple. - It would eliminate "An effective panacea for some system problems." I think I applied a combo update to fix some hosed up printer drivers after an HP update screwed the pooch one time but I could have just loaded an earlier version. This goes into the general category of "zapping the PRAM" to fix issues which originated from a real problem this actually corrected 20 years ago and morphed into a mystical incantation to utter when you have no idea wtf is wrong with the computer and don't feel like praying the rosary over it.
- varvar 6y ago
  When was HN into excusing Apple? It's pretty much run of the mill apple emotional hate club. Quote from the thread "Apple finally has shown their true colours and no form of hardware or software advancement will push me to use their products. Can you imagine the world without Linux or BSD alternatives? What a nightmare."
  - ksk 6y ago
    Well, nerds get mad when you take away controls that existed for.. ever. Is your individuality perfectly expressed through the system preferences that Apple thinks you should have or through exercising your UNIX nerd cred by opening the hatch and messing with the guts? :)
userbinator 6y ago
Example: https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-11-10.15-10.14-10.13-10.12-10.11-10.10-10.9-mountainlion-lion-snowleopard-leopard.merged-1.sucatalog https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-11-10... From which we find the URL to the 11.1 standalone installer (11.4GB): http://swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/00/55/001-86606-A_9SF1TL01U7/5duug9lar1gypwunjfl96dza0upa854qgg/InstallAssistant.pkg http://swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/00/55/001-86606-A_9...
- doggydogs94 6y ago
  How do you know what the catalog url is?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    It’s easy to figure out. I am sure the next one will be https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-12-11-10.15-10.14-10.13-10.12-10.11-10.10-10.9-mountainlion-lion-snowleopard-leopard.merged-1.sucatalog https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-12-11....
grawprog 6y ago
>I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded. How is reducing the number of ways one can acquire or install something not further locking down a platform? That's pretty much what 'locking down' a platform comes down to, reducing the number of ways you can install various kinds of software on said platform. An OS is still another piece of software.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Speaking purely as personal opinion, the difference is “lockdown” -> they care; reducing options -> they don’t care. The effect is similar, unless you’re trying to find away around it.
- supplyOrKeynes 6y ago
  Ok so you’re technically correct. Most users do not care. How is sitting on social media ranting about such things productive? This is how corporate works. Do something different politically if it matters.
- rgovostes 6y ago
  It is reducing the number of supported configurations that need to be tested, which reduces the cost of shipping software updates. It seems to go hand in hand with making the root filesystem read-only. Users tend to be happy when their system is reliable. Perhaps this is incrementally progressing towards constant security updates like Chrome has had for some time.
  - amelius 6y ago
    > Users tend to be happy when their system is reliable. Reliability is only one axis. Focus too much on one aspect, and increasingly fewer people will be happy.
    - bredren 6y ago
      Security is another. If the last week has been any indicator, this property of software product value is very hard to provide and its value greatly underestimated.
mhh__ 6y ago
>I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded. War is peace, freedom is slavery etc.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Crontab 6y ago
Personally, I see it as a user hostile change.
- jhayward 6y ago
  Really? Approximately how many users, would you say, will be unable to install MacOS as a result?
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    Well, I run Linux on my Mac, and I legally virtualize macOS in a VM on my Mac, so this could impact my ability to do so.
    - fastball 6y ago
      That might make you unique haha.
      - baldfat 6y ago
        How does VM Mac on a Mac as a developer make one unique?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        fastball 6y ago
        Buying a mac, installing linux as your daily driver, and then running macOS in a VM? I honestly don't even know why you'd do that. I certainly have never heard of anyone doing that until now.
        thekyle 6y ago
        I think it's more common to virtualize macOS on a Mac running macOS.
gumby 6y ago
In other words they still provide a way to get them, just not at a URL they publish on their website.
- varvar 6y ago
  Naah, don't you see this is about Freedom vs Slavery for all of the US, and perhaps all of humanity, so all developers should quit Apple and join Google or Microsoft to save the humanity.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    It's a tool, not a religion. We use our computers to get shit done. People don't rail on and on about how DeWalt has a proprietary battery, why do people go off like this is some kind of holy war. I could almost understand it if you were talking up Linux, at least there is some real difference there. Microsoft and Google? Give me a break.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
intricatedetail 6y ago
Isn't that all about tracking and knowing what you do with "your" computer? If you know more about customers you can more easily manipulate them.
hjuutilainen 6y ago
Shameless plug for my own little macOS app to see the contents of these update catalog files: https://github.com/hjuutilainen/sus-inspector https://github.com/hjuutilainen/sus-inspector
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Ooh, this is cool. I’ll have to see if I can use it to replace reading the plist by hand!
sneak 6y ago
> (Note that the update check does not send information about your system to Apple.) It doesn't need to. Every Big Sur mac maintains a hardware-serial-linked TLS connection to Apple's push notification service (which exposes client IP, and thus the city you're in and your ISP) at all times when connected to the network. Also, opening the App Store app links your IP to your hardware serial number.
chris_wot 6y ago
"I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded." I think you just repeated yourself.
michaelbrave 6y ago
It may not be the "end of macOS as a developer platform" but it's one more sign that I should start looking for an alternative because the end is on it's way.
Accujack 6y ago
Apple's ideal business model is very similar to the model employed for cloud based Internet services, save that they want it to apply to all computer hardware and software, not just those services that are a good fit for cloud hosting. While it can be argued that such a service model can have benefits for both the provider and the consumer, Apple has historically engaged in anti-consumer behavior and continues to do so. So no, this sort of thing is not to improve anything for anyone but Apple.

Lev1a 6y ago

> Apple further locking down the platform > they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded Isn't that synonymous?

vmception 6y ago
This is hilarious. They remind me of a politician.
- Waterluvian 6y ago
  It's just a temporary refund adjustment.
ossusermivami 6y ago
Hahah exactly, like Apple don't have the resources to support multiple installs and have to sacrifice one method in the name of stability.....
- vlovich123 6y ago
  Apple has an effectively infinite budget. Teams within Apple do not. You need to be able to cut costs to improve your ability to scale the eng org/reduce associated costs with that scaling. Reducing complexity in your SW stack is 100% critical as you age so that you can lay down technical debt and build new things faster with the freed up capital.
- kolinko 6y ago
  In case of software money will only go so far to offset the scope creep. If the scope is too large any company will fail, regardless of budget. Apple historically was always removing features that add bulk but are not necessary (although some people need them). To give some examples: - with one of the MacOS releases they announces there are no new features in the OS, just a cleanup of unnecessary stuff - they removed support for 32 bit apps a year ago - personally I found it painful as some stuff stopped working, but I understand this was done to streamline the system - and so on Sure it’s sometimes irritating, but otherwise you risk ending up with a mess that Windows is. As a side note - since they switched from physical medium it was weird to me personally that there even is a standalone installer - why not make it a system update? This year they finally did the switch.
Dylan16807 6y ago
No. Only reductions that affect user freedom fall under "locking down". If there are redundant ways to do something, removing one doesn't lock down anything.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Making it harder for users to review & inspect update installation packages does affect user freedom.
  - holstvoogd 6y ago
    like anyone does that
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    You just have to download it a slightly different way. Anyone who has any ability to actually review/inspect is able to do that. The impact on user freedom is negligible. But even if we decide this particular situation is in fact locking down, what I said is still true. Locking down is a subset of removing options, not synonymous with it.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      The impact on user freedom is negligible. Apple has been practicing incrementalism. Each small step by itself doesn't seem very significant. But the slow march continues, and the pieces add up. Current people with technical ability may be able to modify their behavior to work around it, but the technical bar has been raise slightly-- people without technical ability have one more small speedbump. If you're right and Apple stops here, then sure, no big deal, and I'd be happy to be wrong. This isn't the hill I'd die on for the issue. It's the trend I don't like. If a few years go by without Apple locking down the OS further, I'd be okay with the status quo. Looking at the trend of the past few years though, it seems like Apple is slowly taking MacOS towards the iOS model.
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
onion2k 6y ago
"Locking down" implies that they're adding restrictions. They're not doing that. People are just as free to download updates as they always have been. Now they just have to use a different address. If I have two URLs pointing to my website and then I remove one, users can just go to the other one. I have not "locked down" my website or limited access at all.
cozzyd 6y ago
Marty: The last time Tap toured America, they where, uh, booked into 10,000 seat arenas, and 15,000 seat venues, and it seems that now, on their current tour they're being booked into 1,200 seat arenas, 1,500 seat arenas, and uh I was just wondering, does this mean uh...the popularity of the group is waning? Ian: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no...no, no, not at all. I, I, I just think that the.. uh.. their appeal is becoming more selective.

ladyanita22 6y ago

HN will excuse Apple, just as you have.

yborg 6y ago
No, HN will rush to Cupertino with torches and pitchforks based on an inflammatory headline without clicking on the link and realizing that: - Apple hasn't officially said anything about this. The linked rantpost is verklempt because it's been 4 weeks since the release of a major OS revision supporting a new processor architecture and a standalone installer hasn't been provided (yet). And here are his given arguments for the Collapse of American Way and Civilization in General if this situation continues: - It's hard to reinstall Safari. This basically happens ... never. I've been running OS X since the beta and have never had to reinstall Safari. - It would make it difficult to recreate a specific point release in the future. This is valid, but also a rare use case and this doesn't prevent you from doing it, you just have to apply the incrementals from Apple. - It would eliminate "An effective panacea for some system problems." I think I applied a combo update to fix some hosed up printer drivers after an HP update screwed the pooch one time but I could have just loaded an earlier version. This goes into the general category of "zapping the PRAM" to fix issues which originated from a real problem this actually corrected 20 years ago and morphed into a mystical incantation to utter when you have no idea wtf is wrong with the computer and don't feel like praying the rosary over it.
varvar 6y ago
When was HN into excusing Apple? It's pretty much run of the mill apple emotional hate club. Quote from the thread "Apple finally has shown their true colours and no form of hardware or software advancement will push me to use their products. Can you imagine the world without Linux or BSD alternatives? What a nightmare."
- ksk 6y ago
  Well, nerds get mad when you take away controls that existed for.. ever. Is your individuality perfectly expressed through the system preferences that Apple thinks you should have or through exercising your UNIX nerd cred by opening the hatch and messing with the guts? :)

userbinator 6y ago

Example: https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-11-10.15-10.14-10.13-10.12-10.11-10.10-10.9-mountainlion-lion-snowleopard-leopard.merged-1.sucatalog https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-11-10... From which we find the URL to the 11.1 standalone installer (11.4GB): http://swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/00/55/001-86606-A_9SF1TL01U7/5duug9lar1gypwunjfl96dza0upa854qgg/InstallAssistant.pkg http://swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/00/55/001-86606-A_9...

doggydogs94 6y ago
How do you know what the catalog url is?
- saagarjha 6y ago
  It’s easy to figure out. I am sure the next one will be https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-12-11-10.15-10.14-10.13-10.12-10.11-10.10-10.9-mountainlion-lion-snowleopard-leopard.merged-1.sucatalog https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-12-11....

grawprog 6y ago

>I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded. How is reducing the number of ways one can acquire or install something not further locking down a platform? That's pretty much what 'locking down' a platform comes down to, reducing the number of ways you can install various kinds of software on said platform. An OS is still another piece of software.

ben_w 6y ago
Speaking purely as personal opinion, the difference is “lockdown” -> they care; reducing options -> they don’t care. The effect is similar, unless you’re trying to find away around it.
supplyOrKeynes 6y ago
Ok so you’re technically correct. Most users do not care. How is sitting on social media ranting about such things productive? This is how corporate works. Do something different politically if it matters.
rgovostes 6y ago
It is reducing the number of supported configurations that need to be tested, which reduces the cost of shipping software updates. It seems to go hand in hand with making the root filesystem read-only. Users tend to be happy when their system is reliable. Perhaps this is incrementally progressing towards constant security updates like Chrome has had for some time.
- amelius 6y ago
  > Users tend to be happy when their system is reliable. Reliability is only one axis. Focus too much on one aspect, and increasingly fewer people will be happy.
  - bredren 6y ago
    Security is another. If the last week has been any indicator, this property of software product value is very hard to provide and its value greatly underestimated.

mhh__ 6y ago

>I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded. War is peace, freedom is slavery etc.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Crontab 6y ago

Personally, I see it as a user hostile change.

jhayward 6y ago
Really? Approximately how many users, would you say, will be unable to install MacOS as a result?
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Well, I run Linux on my Mac, and I legally virtualize macOS in a VM on my Mac, so this could impact my ability to do so.
  - fastball 6y ago
    That might make you unique haha.
    - baldfat 6y ago
      How does VM Mac on a Mac as a developer make one unique?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - fastball 6y ago
        Buying a mac, installing linux as your daily driver, and then running macOS in a VM? I honestly don't even know why you'd do that. I certainly have never heard of anyone doing that until now.
        thekyle 6y ago
        I think it's more common to virtualize macOS on a Mac running macOS.

gumby 6y ago

In other words they still provide a way to get them, just not at a URL they publish on their website.

varvar 6y ago
Naah, don't you see this is about Freedom vs Slavery for all of the US, and perhaps all of humanity, so all developers should quit Apple and join Google or Microsoft to save the humanity.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  It's a tool, not a religion. We use our computers to get shit done. People don't rail on and on about how DeWalt has a proprietary battery, why do people go off like this is some kind of holy war. I could almost understand it if you were talking up Linux, at least there is some real difference there. Microsoft and Google? Give me a break.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

intricatedetail 6y ago

Isn't that all about tracking and knowing what you do with "your" computer? If you know more about customers you can more easily manipulate them.

hjuutilainen 6y ago

Shameless plug for my own little macOS app to see the contents of these update catalog files: https://github.com/hjuutilainen/sus-inspector https://github.com/hjuutilainen/sus-inspector

saagarjha 6y ago
Ooh, this is cool. I’ll have to see if I can use it to replace reading the plist by hand!

sneak 6y ago

> (Note that the update check does not send information about your system to Apple.) It doesn't need to. Every Big Sur mac maintains a hardware-serial-linked TLS connection to Apple's push notification service (which exposes client IP, and thus the city you're in and your ISP) at all times when connected to the network. Also, opening the App Store app links your IP to your hardware serial number.

chris_wot 6y ago

"I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded." I think you just repeated yourself.

michaelbrave 6y ago

It may not be the "end of macOS as a developer platform" but it's one more sign that I should start looking for an alternative because the end is on it's way.

Accujack 6y ago

Apple's ideal business model is very similar to the model employed for cloud based Internet services, save that they want it to apply to all computer hardware and software, not just those services that are a good fit for cloud hosting. While it can be argued that such a service model can have benefits for both the provider and the consumer, Apple has historically engaged in anti-consumer behavior and continues to do so. So no, this sort of thing is not to improve anything for anyone but Apple.